L/E Diving and the Commercial Diver [Archive] - SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network

TacticalRifleBKH

28 September 2000, 22:57

dvpj, Yup I'm very aware of all the controversy going on in the ADC right now, and also with the USCG and OSHA req's for putting a team to work, A good friend of mine is on the Board of Directors for the ADC. I'm constantly giving him grief for taking up the sport of politics, lol. I've also got much respect for you EOD Divers, Good to meet you as well. I'm more or less trying to talk diving with good divers, and keep abreast of anything going on. Hopefully I've found a good board to learn new things from, I'm not EOD, but I am Ex-mil, and a plain ole South Louisiana Mudstomper, got beaucoup time hand jetting, burning, inspection, and recovery...Good to Hear from you...BKH

29 September 2000, 13:13

Hi Guys,

All MHO here... It would be a BAD idea to run LE diving through commercial enterprises. Why? Because commercial diving outfits are concerned with the bottom line...money. That, to me, is like saying there should be only one combat diver course in the military. I'm certainly not knocking commercials for that, it's necessary to make business decisions. But dive teams in the LE arena perform a wide spectrum of duties, and not all of them do the same thing. Some units are just search and recovery, some do search and rescue, some tactical, and some do it all. LE diving is very different from commercial diving and there is no "one size fits all" to the field.

I do of course perscribe to certification levels. But developing a set of commercial standards for LE diving is not practical in my opinion. Many departments that do have divers do not have the funds to send people to commercial schools. What do you do then? Tell Department A/B/C that they can't dive beause they're not "certified". There is a huge difference in being CERTIFIED and being QUALIFIED.

Already, several of the civilian certifying agencies offer tactical, LE, and SAR diving certification courses. Additionally, many departments/units offer specialized LE diving courses. I've helped in some of these developments and listened to lots of comments about it. Many departments offer their own courses based on their experiences as well.

Excellent topic. Let's keep it going.

BD

dvpj

29 September 2000, 20:26

Back at ya!! BKH.
GLAD to say hello!
My folks are from LA!
I've spent a heap of time in Alex' and Pineville, and my old employer had a large..call it huge...shop in Morgan City.
I worked out of the Upper Marlboro, MD office, but was banished for a few weeks to the Morgan Shity shack.
Keep the lines open...

I've left the "bucket-head biz", for science. I teach Marine Biology and Oceanography at a small private college in PA to non-science majors and I love it!!

Its been four years since I clipped on a hat. I miss it, but I would not give this up for anything.
I get to spend several days and nights (twice for five days at a time!)a semester with beautiful college girls in places like St.Thomas, and Belize...and get paid for it!!

If there were one thing I miss the most AND would give it all up(Yes, really!); it would be the guys in the team! I miss the close interaction and the sense of tackling a challenge.

Seriously...
Any young guys thinking of a job in the recovery biz, should think long and hard. It is not J. Cousteau, or B. Ballard. It ain't Baywatch or Reality TV; it is nasty, hot, dirty, and emotionaly taxing. It will destroy a family life and make you a drunk if you let it, and it is easy to fall in that trap.

TacticalRifleBKH

30 September 2000, 23:39

BD, your exactly right about Certified, and Qualified. the diving Industry as a whole, both recreational and commercial is really a bunch of guys trying to make a killing off the new divers coming into the field, In the old days of commercial diving if you wanted to be a diver you signed on, did all the shit work, got hazed til you quit or broke out, now you gotta pay almost ten grand to get the same thing, In the Recreational diving industry they won't let anyone in the water today w/o a BCD, in the old days it was just a Cam Pac, I understand the safety aspect of this, but it is also a financial, Guys don't get me wrong, I'm all for safety and paying my dues, but isn't it crazy how things go, I mean I'd be the last one to complain if I was the head of the ADC making six figures a year, lol, But I think there are a lot of good divers in the induustry who can't get om with a commercial company because they have a family to support and can't afford to take time to go to a fancy hard hat school, I mean they are sending convicts to Dive School in Chino CA, is that fair?, But back to the topic, Certified doesn't mean nothing, Qualified is a whole different ballgame, I've been contracted to perform quite a few missions here in NOLA, and also in other places like FL. I'm by no means a SEAL or combat diver, But have plenty of experience with Rebreathers, and other UBA. I do have an interest in L/E and Public Safety diving. I think you are correct about not needing to apply the commercial standards to that area as well, I do feel that the people performing the mission should have extensive experience with the areas and hazards they will be immersing themselves in. If not there should be a support network in place that can provide them with the necessary Hazard Analysis to safely perform the dive. Thanks for the input, I think we can make this a great string. DVPJ I can't tell you how sick of going to Morgan City I am, I think the biggest problem in the industry is the turn over rate, it's sad but amusing how many hard core divers get on their first Jet job and wig out as soon as we come up on the jet and airlift pressure.

PS- DVPJ, hehe, do you need a guy to carry your gear, lol....

1 October 2000, 10:43

BKH -

A big roger on that convict diving. I've seen some info on that and they always spout out how winderful it is that those guys are learning a trade and all but I've got serious trouble with that program. I mean, how comfortable do you think the average commercial diver is going to be at 300 feet knowing the guy he's working with was in for assault? Would you argue with somebody like that at depth? Not to mention that the training is a serious amount of $$ ... at taxpayers expense.

You ever thought of joining the National Academy of Police Divers? It's open to anyone at the associate level (for $29.00).
I think it's http://www.policediver.com for all the info you'd need. They provide training, publications and info. They've also been working on a set of standards for the LE diving field.

Here's my only problem with NAPD...they want to set standards but don't advertise and aren't active enough through the certification agencies. What do you think?

Take care and be safe.

BD

dvpj

1 October 2000, 13:55

I have to chime in on the certified vs. qualified thing. Please know that I'm way biased and not ashamed to admit that.

There is a trend to playing 'dress up a resume or earn merit badges' in the growing dive industry. I think that in most cases what a company is (and a LE agency should be) looking for are confident and responsible divers to complete the task. That is becoming hard to find. I have came across hundreds of resumes from people, well-minded, but sorely misled, that a PADI advanced openwater card or a sharp looking patch sewn on a jacket will get them on a dive site. I don't doubt their drive or heart, but it is ability that is needed. Zero vis, stiff current, and below freezing air temp is no time to learn how to sweep a bottom. "We did that once in school", I can't count the times I heard that from a new hire on the dive site. In the busy times our personnel dept. will take in ten hires and we in the field become the screening process. I did not have the time or disire to hold this guys hand as he panics in a debris field. But, how do you select the right guy..or girl? I don't know, maybe the military (USN)has a good idea by hammering the snot out of the newbie diver in school.

Okay this is going to set some butts on fire, but really the best commercial recovery divers I ever met were from our overseas offices.
Most were ex-military, and had five or so years in the biz tinkering on oil rigs, laying phone cables, or spotting rip-rap off shore. I'm sorry to admit it but these guys were task masters, they never complained and worked harder then any American I ever saw. I spent ten weeks recovering 29 bodies out of a ship wreck (245'deep on the top of the wheel house) in the South China Sea. It was myself one other American and the other 16 were from NZ, Australia, and GB. We endured storms, long transits (2 days) to a port to drop off the bodies, and fried Indonesian food. The current was horendous, temp on the bottom was below 20F, and the wreck was a mess. These guys never wimpered, and during the trips to drop off the recovered remains...we partied our asses off!!

I understand as much as anyone that a task of that magnitude would not fall into the hands of a LE agency here, but my point is that these guys had no degreed credentials, they were not graduates of $5,000.00 schools nor were they muscle-bound snake-eaters. They were driven and well trained and very experienced divers. All too often our military divers are not given enough credit for their experience, when an ex-Navy bucket head would show up at the personnel office he would be chasened if he did not have 'civilian' credentials. I've seen guys with a four year engineering degree, and a few surface gas and air classes on his transcript get the job over an experienced Navy guy. The Navy guy walks away in disgust, and thinks he is the problem. Then in a few months the clean finger-nailed college grad breaks down crying, or better yet says the job is too dangerous for the pay...and quits.

I have a pretty tall soap box when it comes to cert vs qual, and I've used up too many ones and zeros here...

...lets keep this up...

[This message has been edited by dvpj (edited 10-01-2000).]

TacticalRifleBKH

1 October 2000, 15:21

Yup, I agree whole heartedly dvpj, Gotta go fix a problem offshore, be back in a few days, be safe....

1 October 2000, 20:09

dvpj -

I wholeheartedly agree. Damn, where do I start? I'm not knocking LE dive teams, but think that's one often overlooked area when it comes to training.

I know teams that have the attitude "if you have an open water card and show up, you're on the team." No formalized training, no standard procedures. It's just whatever they think will get the job done. Of course, it doesn't help when some padi instructor tries to tell his newly certified group of LE open water students that they are now ready for anything. I saw a team once run an arc search pattern from shore to recover a gun used in a crime. They screwed up the bottom so bad they *buried* the gun in the mud. And then they don't know proper evidence recovery procedures...just haul things out of the water. Or teams that only know search patterns but can't navigate underwater, or they show up unprepared, etc etc. I just snicker sometimes.

Another problem I see is that while many LE dive teams are used for search and recovery, they are not tactically oriented. And if they are, they are just good enough to endanger themselves. Most municipalities have lakes and marina facilities in them, but most SWAT teams are unprepared to operate *around* these environments, let alone *in* them. To me, tactical diving is one of the most under-utilized, and potentially most productive, aspects. It's also one of the least documented (maybe we should write a book?)

We trained year-round. Wind, rain, sun, it didn't matter. We were once training in January in a lake. Water was 42F, air temp was 50F, and we were in wetsuits (SAR four orange milkjugs that had "drowned"). Had others mock us for training in those conditions. But who got the call when the rubber meets the road?

Ok, I'm off the soapbox now. Your turn...

BD

DFC5343

2 October 2000, 04:51

Sounds like a business op for some one....training police divers....you could classify as a scientific diver per OSHA standards and you will see that research diving has no standards....you can even dive alone. Unless the agency you work for takes an interest, your dive team is only as good as your most motivated members. Some of the gear I've seen used belongs in the shitcan. Money is the main factor there since some think since we only use these guys 1-2 times a month, why have um. Call the military or gov divers for the big shit.

dvpj

2 October 2000, 06:46

I suppose my most pressing question to the point of tactical diving would be the matter of proficiency. How does a LE agency justify the time and money commitment, to a team or two of five or six divers each, to the tax payer? We're not talking about making bounce dives and op checking gear here, were talking about the type of training op a SWAT team would mount. Imagine the potentials; waterfront access for training, security boats, gear and back up gear, at least two teams/groups, an opfor, contignecies for accidents on standby, and of course we have to tape the op so we can critique it. All of this is exclusive of the time and money needed to maintain gear and get the training in the first place.

An involved taxpayer group would be very suspicous of the sizable obligation to a couple of dive teams.

Now I would think that if a few local agencies were to stand up a regional based team those chances would be greater. More funds, a smaller burden on one agency, a larger pool of applicants,and less chance for single sight management and corruption.

Historicaly many LE dive teams have found themselves the topics of local investigative reporters, and looked pretty silly in wetsuits and handcuffs. I recall the SDSO underwater unit back in the 80s. They were "training", in the kelp beds near Pt. Loma and were caught by state fish and game officers illegally taking abalone and lobsters.

I'm diggin' this string! Lets keep it up.

2 October 2000, 11:54

I think tactical applications in LE diving is an easy sell to the taxpayers. Of course, we aren't talking about making a platoon of NSW operators. The only drawback to LE tactical diving ops is the horrible lack of literature, but we can deal with that later. An ideal all-purpose LE team could consist of 4 to 6 operators. Cost? Let's look at it this way: for the cost of a typical entry arm (MP5 {yuk!} or M4) or strobe lightbar you can darn near outfit a diver. There's lots of good rugged gear out there, and some shops will give discounts to LE. Throw on some soft armor and web gear on the tactical end and you're ready to go (check out http://www.specialoperations.com/Domestic/SWAT/swatdiver.html for a gear list). Then you've just got the training and its cost (air, etc).

Like we talked about previously, I'll take qualified over certified anyday. Hopefully you can find those types of people on the SWAT unit. Find out who's confortable in dark water, your best swimmers, who navigates well underwater, etc. I like the idea of a "skills course" for this. And make it hard. None of this navigate in a straight line business. Work people in the pool first and then in the openwater. Do multi-point navigation exercises and have them run searches, pick up things, buddy breathe on certain legs, etc. :-) Run seminars in pier structures, boat mechanics, etc. That's the way to choose people.

Then setup realistic training exercises with everyone (have SWAT divers setup surveillance on a houseboat, etc, and have the land team take it down). Marinas provide excellent training grounds, and most marina operators won't mind. Another point to make is that when your land team is operating near water, you have divers there and in place for any emergency rescues that might arise.

I'd treat the dive team like many depts treat their SWAT units. Part time SWAT teams carry their gear in their trunks typically and suitup on scene. I can easily fit a SWAT loadout bag, dive bag, and associated gear in the trunk of a car. But considering most waterborne SWAT ops will be planned in advance, you could leave tanks back at the station.

If the taxpayers see that their money is being used wisely, they shouldn't balk too much. You can always make the case of a team that does it all: rescue, SWAT, recovery... and that gives you the multi-mission team. Since most municipalities have rivers and lakes in them, it'd be great PR to have a team. Especially if you do things like swift-water rescue and other duties.

Thoughts? Let's keep it going....

BD

TacticalRifleBKH

3 October 2000, 02:41

OK, I'm back. Cool postings fellas, I was thinking more like forming a group of advisor's / Instructors to teach these people about all the aspects of this field of diving, from hard hats in the river with a current to HRT ops. I think the biggest problem with getting funding would be trying to convince the City Gov'ts that they need the training, but in a jam you are always a desireable asset. I think convincing the National Gov't to give up funds would be easier, because there are plenty of grants out there, just gotta be resourceful.
I think the biggest keys would be Perseverance and Integrity, I been turned down for so many jobs it ain't even funny but I don't ever think about quitting, as for gear, I'd be willing to pay for my own gear, If I had a reason I've got the resources to provide all Class 3 firearms I'd need, (Partner owns a gunshop) I also do custom 1911, and Tac Rifle work, but that is off subject.... I'd rather stick with the hull search aspect, and let someone else train the pups for taking down the harbor. LOL, I'm having a good time with this. Thanks for all the input...

DFC5343

3 October 2000, 02:41

I think that unless the asscociated team is of a water nature(Harbor police, lifeguards, etc.)that most city deptments may balk at the need to have. Contracting out such work to the agency of expertise seems to be the way these days of hard to come by greenbacks. Even the coasties and some Navy units are more than willing to support such endevors but lack the knowledge for evidence searches and forensic vices. Harbor rarely if ever looks for evidence but spend most dives recovering bodies. I know Long Beach SWAT has their members train for ship boarding but would call LASO harbor for the evidence and body job. Maybe the forming of a private company to do the odd L/E dive jobs could be an answer. Could be a great money maker if approached correctly.

dvpj

3 October 2000, 06:44

I see a couple of sticky points in bringing in military types for a water op.

One, there are going to be legal/constitional issues to deal with. If you are looking for support in a recovery(that train wreck, flt.800, and a few deep lake jobs are good examples)...no big deal, but the second GI Joe picks up a weapon in a duty manner he is standing on a thin line. Posse Comitus...is that right?

Two, the military does nothing for free...even high visability events will be billed for. Yes Uncle Sam will seek out payment, and will bill an agency for its services.

I think we are in agreement that the LE side of diving is an overlooked asset until the second a car plunges into a lake or a key part of a case is tossed into the surf.

I guess an advocate for standing up a group must be persistant, honest, and clear in their wants.

I would be afraid that keeping a diving group too close to your chest would have too many risks involved. The local PD may decide to model theirs after yours and leave you standing there with some cool stuff and nothing to do with it. "Shit, I've got all these cool toys; but now, everyone else does too".

Cities understand the "cost-benefits analysis" look at a plan, convince a few (one or two) members of a council to give you a day or two to put on a demo, and locate a team nearby (bit of a gamble there!) to be a kind of static display. Show them the real deal. Have the honcho for that guest group talk about manpower utilization and budgets. Those are the things most civil servant bean counters understand. They are not impressed with emotional pleas for improving service...they will see that has an chance to dress up your resume and then you vanish.

"Prom night is too late for dancing lessons"

4 October 2000, 11:44

Agreed. Military operators should only be used in recovery ops. No tactical roles whatsoever. I do think that as far as training goes, interaction with mil teams is beneficial. Especially since there is precious little maritime tactical knowledge in the LE community at large.

Now, how do we get things going? Well, I think one of the best possibilities is for federal grant monies. There's certainly a lot of it floating around for LE applications. I'm not sure just how much could be tapped though for this specific type of development. I have some sources to check on that.

I still don't know about a national certification. I think the best that can be done is teach a good fundamental background (using several different courses) and let teams adapt for their own particular environment/applications/operations. Now that would be the money-maker in my opinion.
I've got my courses and curriculum dev idea stuff.

Let's keep it moving...

BD

dvpj

4 October 2000, 20:54

Just a shot in the dark here, but would it be possible to train in a joint manner with military units? I just read a piece where a man in a police uniform spoke about "cross-training" militry and police spec ops units. I do not know who the guy was the article was in tatters at a dentists office! It was Newsweek...I think, and a year or so old.

You're still faced with the problem of the initial training. The easy way would be to seek out ex-military types. But, that may break the bank. You would also spend a lot of time filtering out BS and phoneys. Not real productive.

National standards are an issue that would be sensitive for the same reason you stated...geography and application. The small town PD-regional unit may have a hard time mustering the resources, $$$ and bodies. While a big city or populated county would be whacked with too many applicants, but have a better source of money. There would also have to be some central facility or agency that would act in the role of evaulator and examiner. Wow, what a job that would be.

When you begin to put ideas to words they get much more complicated. Not impossible just not easy...

But, if it were easy there'd be girl scouts doin' it!

5 October 2000, 14:20

dvpj-

It is possible for LE tactical units to train with mil units, and is not that uncommon. What is uncommon (and underutilized) are maritime SWAT tactics.

I don't agree on your statement about initial training in seeking out ex-military types. I'm not talking about just storming boats/helocasting/etc, but using maritime operations as just another tool to get the job done effectively. Just because someone was a successful military operator that doesn't mean they will be a successful LE/SWAT operator. Remember, the military enforces policy... SWAT enforces law. Personnel selection is always a critical step in successful team building. Filtering out phoneys is not that difficult, especially in the LE community. You want stable *police officers*.

What do I think is the most workable? - LE with minimum of 2 years experience; certified open water diver (advanced/SLAM/AI preferred); SWAT certified or pass SWAT screening; pass physical and swim test; and pass screening exam. Then, in this order, move through a search and recovery class; basics of dive rescue; and a maritime tactical training course. Of course, I'm leaving out lots of details here but you get the picture. As for that national certifying board...not needed IMO since each department is going to place emphasis on different areas. If state commissions want to set standards (as they do for SWAT certs), let them do it.

BD

RECON5

5 October 2000, 17:13

BD- I will accept your invitation and put my .02 worth in. I will first state: I am not dive certified and have no experience in that area. I do have over 10 years LE Experience, and 4 1/2 of that as LE SWAT.

Just my humble OPINION, but having experiences with City Councils and P.D.'s requesting training and equipment. Your chances of being left out in the cold is very slim. Most cities do look at cost effectiveness, and man power issues. They also look at LIABILITY. In order for a Dept to not only meet TCLEOSE Standards for training, and avoid CIVIL LIABILITY they must have the personell to outfit such a unit, provide them with documented outside certifications(DPS - LE Dive School), and the necessary equipment and resources to complete task (follow-up training with Military Units). This not only takes money but time. Depts will contract out many services for this reason. The larger Depts, who would have the money, resources, personell, and equipment available to avoid such liabilities will or already have this type of service readily available. The Dept I used to work for contracted with off-duty officers, who were dive certified to conduct evidence recovery operations. Contract with to avoid direct liability, providing training and equipment, and used off-duty police officers to keep credibility in the chain of custody of evidence, which is another issue in itself.

Just an OPINION.....

------------------
REMEMBER 1*

dvpj

5 October 2000, 20:46

bd,
I'm with you man! Military operators do function and think in a different style or mode. We're trainable though! (Just have enough beer and burritos!)
I recall a discussion sometime ago about military special operators in a domestic LE role...WOW did I piss off some folks. But, in retrospect I am in total agreement with most lawmen now...I've been educated.

About the "central clearing house", a possible option may be the FBI. Am I out of line there? Is the FBI not the "expert" on several unique LE specialities? I'm not a lawman...just an old bucket-head/bomb guy that loves a challenge.
I don't know, just a thought.

Recon-5,
I think we all agree that recovery divers would be easier to muster and maintain then tactical divers. What would be tough is retention. The first time a diver sees a sloughing set of remains is quite a trying period. What would be needed is an encouraged esprit-de-corps, and unique idenity. I've seen a few younger commercial guys ask to leave a dive site. Especially in the case of children!
It's the tactical diver that is going to be a hard thing to make and keep sharp.

Question....
What sort or sorts of scenarios would a LE agency need to stand up a tactical dive team to handle?
I'm sitting here thinking that a city council may want a very real idea of what kind of incident we're talking about.

[This message has been edited by dvpj (edited 10-05-2000).]

DFC5343

6 October 2000, 05:20

Just read an interesting article in the latest ADC mag called underwater. it talks all about the topics hit here and has even started an L/E diving accreditdation. It seems to work like the Navy diving safety surveys but recommendations are made and training opportunities offered. There is even an organization that gives a kind of grant to fund L/E diving teams. You can read it on there webpage at: www.diveweb.com. (http://www.diveweb.com.) It seems that there is a viable need for the formation of specialized diving related teams to assist L/E in their waterborne needs.

RECON5

6 October 2000, 10:50

DVPJ-

Well, LE in general is all too familiar with type of gut wrenching sites you speak of. Any Peace Officer, who has put in any time can tell you what happens to bodies that have been in the water too long, or what they smell like after being burned with all too great detail. This is maybe one area that would not be a problem. Side note every LEO has thier own pet peeves, but all that I know have crimes against children at the top of that list. Most dont want the assignment for fear of "violating" some shit heads "civil rights". I do agree though to keep interest there would have to be a seperate or specialized identity. That always helps for longevity and moral.

The tactical diving scenarios you speak of however are a totally different game. I am speaking now from MY experience ONLY. I know of no LE Agency that would contract commercial or civilian divers to handle a tactical scenario. I hate to beat a dead horse but...LIABILTIY. Those commercial/civilian divers (on average) would not have the LE training, which for Tactical Scenarios would make it more cost effective to Dive Certify your SWAT Team. Even on a strictly non-enforcement type of assignment like surveillance, it could be argued that non-certified personell were participating in enforcement activities. Even still this would not be cost effective for the contracting company, since they would have to train on a regular basis with the Team to understand what was needed and expected from them.

Now since there are "civilian" I.D. Technicians in some Depts, the cost effectiveness for cross training could be become neglidgable for contracting Evidence Recovery type jobs. What I failed to elaborate on yesterday in my post..going back to not fearing the Dept taking your training and ending the contract...is that if a Dept had enough Evidence Recovery type work that they were able to observe your company divers and pick-up the trade. They would most likely find it more cost effective to invest in the personell, training, and equipment to start thier own program. They MIGHT however be willing to pay your company for some training for those personell assigned to that Dive Team.

DFC5343-

I think (Personal Opinion) you will see more of this in the future. I THINK the Team in Florida, (Dade County) who went after suspect in the Mariccui (sp) case on a boat had a dive team at their disposal, but chose not to use it(have to research this one again to be positive). I have not talked to them, but most first impression would be the difficulty (if not impossibility) of making a Dynamic Entry on a boat from the water. Even a Covert Entry would be a serious undertaking on a personal vessel for any team, who did not train in this as frequently as the Navy SEAL's.

AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, ok just a long winded opinion from an non-diving LE. Hope it helps.

------------------
REMEMBER 1*

6 October 2000, 11:21

Good points Recon bro. I've been involved with the TXDPS course a bit several years ago. We took it and modified it to form the base for a national programs certification. It's a good course, but concentrates on search and recovery. The liability issue really shouldn't come into concern that much, but you're right, it's *always* there. I'm all for letting units develop their own SOPs with respect to evidence recovery (the TXDPS course handles this). The next step in tac applications isn't that much of a leap really. Most large depts are working with the military and developing their own. What's needed is more documentation out there. How would you approach management?

Now that I've seen the article at diveweb.com I'm really convinced that states and local agencies need to handle the certs. Between the diveweb guys and the NAPD, we've already got TWO groups developing "national standards" and one of them isn't even LE, but commercial! And you can bet they're both different. =:0

dvpj - Here's some typical dive team missions:

Search and Recovery - evidence, bodies, etc. This is really your most common type of mission. Evidence COC procedures are key here. Using contractors for this can break a case I think if a lawyer wants to make a big deal out of it.

Rescue - Very minimal activity here. Typically you get your team swift water rescue certified. Work a lot with fire rescue. It's good PR too.

Tactical Operation - Surveillance and tactical *support*. You don't need a dive team skilled in combat boarding activities (some larger departments like Miami do train for these activities tho'). Tac diving should support normal operations. Examples: you've got drug activity in a marina, a hostage situation at a marina/on a houseboat/island or area near water. A 4 person dive team can go a long way in providing surveillance and/or tactical support to a team. I'm not talking about just diving, but maritime operations...how to simply work around the water (insertion extraction, etc) and use it to your advantage.

Now for that enough burritos comment. =:0 UGH! You bring back BAD memories! Was searching for a car once at about 45' after a lunch of mexican food and started getting uncomfortable. 2 ATM I was in real pain with gas expanding in my stomach on the way up. Had to hang out and "offgas" for a bit. Lesson: never eat spicy food before a dive!

BD

RECON5

6 October 2000, 15:18

BD-

I will go along with the evidence recovery, and rescue missions. Good points. If we keep going at this we can hash out all the specifics each is not aware of in the others field.

The tactical operations I still have a problems with. The one scenario that immeadiately came to mind in your hostage rescue on a boat in the marina with non-LE conducting surveillance......The HT decides to take the boat out on the lake for a spin.
Now you two possibles (off the top of my head)
1. The divers try or fail to take action to stop the situation from going mobile. An issue in any tactical scenario. Containment is key. They do and something goes wrong *LIABLE* , or if they dont and the HT takes off with the hostage *LIABLE* depending on how the law suit reads the argument will be if they had been trained it could have possibly been prevented and THE TRAINING IS AVAILABLE.......
2. If one of those non-LE divers gets injured or killed by participating the Dept faces Liability that no waiver will prevent because he was not trained to deal with this type situation.

BTW - I have been kicking this around with a guy I work with, who is associated with UHEXSO.org... He told me they had been contacted to help a Dept recover a body the Dept divers could not. They recieved specific instructions to locate the body and mark it with a bouy. A Dept diver would take over to photograph the body as it was found. COC, and thouroughness of investigation being key issues in this situation. This individual brought up another good point. He said I would not be willing to leave family, job, vacation at the drop of a hat to respond to a situation "or lose your job", and if he did the price tag would not be cost effective "to any Dept".

------------------
REMEMBER 1*

6 October 2000, 15:28

RECON - No no no!!! Sorry for any confusion. I'm not for *ever* using contracts for any LE diving especially on the tactical end. Only certified team guys. Could go into specifics, but we just need to write that book. :-) Keep everything LE. I'm not for commercial diver interaction with LE at operational levels unless under strict guidelines for dive recovery.

As for the response during off hours. You work your divers as *part of* the tactical team. So there's no difference in callout procedures.

BD

dvpj

6 October 2000, 19:47

Opps
I must have been under the influence if I even sounded like I was tossing commercial divers in for a tactical job....no way!!
Picture this...somebad guy is holed up in a marina with his 'posse', and lots of nose candy and automatic weapons. (Can you here the music?) Up pulls a big yellow on white van with a huge black and white 'hot-dog' logo on its side. Out of the van spring forth a team of divers. Their weapons 1/4" brocho rod and a big old adjustable wrench. No Way man!!!
I'm talking using commercial guys for a long term recovery job, or something that will require a degree of expertise beyond the LE agency. Something deep, or who knows, you get it though. Hell a good bit of commercial guys could not make it through a background investigation.

The tactical picture is one that only a well trained and proficient LE or military person could tackle. I understand the difficulty in using a military guy in a LE capacity, so really that is not an option.

Remember guys, getting the training is only half of the picture, the rest of the story is...maintaining proficiency.

That takes time and money the root of all bean counter evil.

RECON5

6 October 2000, 22:40

BD & DVPJ my bad. I misunderstood where you (DVPJ) were going with the question of "what sort of missions would an LE Agency need from a commercial diver".

As for doing anything in the recovery aspect that LE Divers would be out of the proficiency range of LE Divers...in most cases (not counting our coastal Depts that have very proficient and regular divers) it would not take much to breach that border. Like I was saying earlier, the Sheriff's Office, which has a large body of water (relatively speaking) in it's jurisdiction had problems locating a body and called in a team of commercial divers for help (with specific instructions). The Dept found the body the day prior to the commercial team arriving. The gentleman I spoke of earlier said they had made contact with the local LE to make thier services available and the Agencies took thier name and contact numbers for "future reference". They have been contacted on average of maybe once per year for special projects.

This is not a bad idea you guys have going. The logistics and "bean counters" are what kill most common sense mutual aid efforts not the personell.

Good Luck.

------------------
REMEMBER 1*

DFC5343

21 October 2000, 10:08

Hey guys...little info....a new rag is about to come about. Its called Military Diver. Right now it is in the beginning stages but check out www.militarydiveronline.com (http://www.militarydiveronline.com) as the construction begins. Should be a great info service for all the military dive communities including government agencies (DEA,FBI...)

TacticalRifleBKH

23 October 2000, 14:26

Hey Fellas,

Sorry I haven't been around for a while, been doing a deepwater project in the Viosca Knoll region of the Gulf... Seems like this topic has gone through the roof.
I agree that there needs to be a clear separation between tactical and commercial situations, Guess that is why there are SEALS and Salvage units...Seals are no good at salvage and Salvage isn't any good at SpecWar, lol... In L/E as well I constantly get to see Police Dive Teams that have no business diving in some of the situations that they enter. And as well I have no business doing HRT Tactics on a job. I'm a Reserve Officer and get frequently called upon to advise Federal Agencies, and also conduct dives in the search of narcotics, or evidence recovery. But I have no interest in being a part of a SWAT Team, or trying to perform dynamic entry on a boat...LOL...

Well, good to see everyone again, look forward to talking more in the future....
Thanks, and Be Safe.........

Linus

27 November 2000, 06:43

Where did you all go?

What's happened to this thread that you'd all just abandon it? I was reading all posts with much interrest, I'm strongly considering a "career" (from what some of you told me on my post "What's all this about?" it really ain't...) as a professional diver and this thread was a veritable goldmine of experience and information! But if you're not going to keep it up, perhaps you could tell me where to go?

If not, good luck to you all and thank you very much anyway!

Best wishes,
Linus

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

dvpj

27 November 2000, 20:48

Well friend in my case my job as an academic has got to be a busy one. This is the time I wish I was hip deep in mud pulling an anchor chain from pilling.

ANYWAY

I guess the best place to look at the current dive market for jobs and schooling might be www.diveweb.com (http://www.diveweb.com) , it is a sort of clearing house and forum for Howie Doyles magazine Underwater. Now that I'm out of the loop, and can only nightmare about riding the tube, and all nighter mobilization jobs, I catch up on the biz in those pages. It is a pretty fair rag...best of all it's a freebee...

Another place to look at for schooling is your local military recruiter.
Don't yell at me...I heard that!
The Navy is a great place to pick up real practicle experience very early in a career.
To be honest I do not know if your country has a cadre of Navy divers with in it. But it wouldn't hurt to find out.

GOOD LUCK, keep your head high, and breathe.

Linus

30 November 2000, 06:12

Hey Dvpj!

I thought my post would echo unanswered for all eternity on the web! Glad to hear you're still around! Thank you for the info, I'll be checking it out shortly. As for military diving in Sweden, sure there are some but it's a conscription army/navy/airforce so you don't really get to pick where to go or what to do. I spent my time LOOKING OUT for divers, only discovering I'd been on the wrong end in the wrong branch at the wrong time, after I got out. There's a navy course for civilian proffesional divers and I'm applying for the one held this spring.

But I'm also actually seriuosly considering to jump ship and cross the Atlantic once and for good (you guys gotta be laughing your asses of right now, I know it...) and apply for NDSTC. (OK, NOW you're rolling on the floor...) I'm currently seeking contact with the US embassy here in Stockholm but I'm a bit pressed for time: I've got just a little more than a year before I'm too old...

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

DFC5343

30 November 2000, 06:33

Linus...the norweigans and brits offer strong training in pro diving. You can even get the coveted North Sea quals. Check it out!
The US will require citizenship for a clearence and it is a bitch. Navy divers do some classified work and unless you are willing to spend the time figuring out the process and got a place to live...reconsider.

[This message has been edited by DFC5343 (edited 11-30-2000).]

Linus

30 November 2000, 15:59

I will definitely check it out! What's the story behind the North Sea quals? Never heard of it before.

Yeah, I know it's some stunt to pull to get a US Citizenship out of the blue. But I've got relatives in Pennsylvania and friends in NY as well as on the West Coast, so at least I've got places to go. Who knows, it just might work out if I can only get the attention of the people at the embassy. But I agree, it ain't my best bet...

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

dvpj

30 November 2000, 21:17

North Sea quals are a sort of right of passage.
Really it just means you've survived one dive to make another. The North Sea, historically, is pretty tough on divers. In the oil business divers are usually seen as a tool or a means to get the job done.
North Sea pay is much higher than California or the Gulf of Mexico, but so too is the cost of living in those places. I'm not sure about the Persian Gulf. I know a bunch of "rats" working in Indonesia and Sing', and they are living very comfortably. Most of those guys came from the RAN or RN.

A word of caution here.

In most cases you will have to be a proven quality asset to a civilian diving outfit before you are permitted to do any work beyond tending or surface welding and grinding. It is a tough business and is dominated by old school thoughts on ability.

A military background will get you huge amounts of a wide scope of expereinces and talents. As a military diver you will be sucking hose on big jobs right out of school.
There are several reasons for that and I can go into them if you want, but for know just know that a civilian dive job will be a tough hill to climb. If you can last you will be looking at a great reputation and a fantastic salary.

GOOD LUCK.

If the USN is an option you are thinking about, don't mess with a Naval Attache in an overseas posting. Go to the U S Navy's website and search the security entry requirements for FLEET DIVER (second class diver) in the BUPERS (Bureau of Personel) webpages.

Linus

30 November 2000, 23:23

Last spring I tried the various email links to BUPERS while I was checking out NDSTC. I just wanted to get in touch with someone who could point me in the right direction as to who I should really speak to. No such luck. I guess they're buisy enough as it is...

So what, I should search the US Navy website? OK, what am I looking for? I'm sorry, I'm just a bit lost. Nothing quite so frustrating as realizing you're being handed some real good advice and not being able to understand a word of it...

And again, thank you very much!

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

DFC5343

1 December 2000, 05:21

Linus...I am USN diver. I just help put my son and a friend into the diver challenge program. If you go to the BUPERS webpage like dvjp said and click on community managers then on diver you can get into the office of QMCS Marshall. Email him your questions and he will respond. The North Sea quals are usually given by the brits and they are very territorial. It is a rite of passage but not many foreigners get including U.S. Also Santa Barbara city college in California has an outstanding marine technology program. They offer job placement and other help in the diving industry. Their address is:
Marine Diving Technologies Dept.
Santa Barbara City College
721 Cliff Dr.
Santa Barbara, California 93109-9987
Phone numbers are:
1.805.965.0581, extensions 2426/2427
They offer an excellent program and a degree to boot. I higly recommend it. It does cost a few pennies but everything costs. Good luck.

dvpj

1 December 2000, 05:49

Roger that!
Senior Chief Marshall is a good guy, and he'll give you some good gouge. I know him from my days at MINSY.

A point about SBCC. My old employer used to be an education partner with them. We'd get guys and gals, that were nearing the end of school or at a point that the staff felt confident about them. They would come to the shop in Ventura and sort of be cheap labor, but they would get to see the operations in a non-training environment. I did several mobilizations from the Ventura office, and there was a large/ huge population of SBCC grads working there. Additionaly they offer a technology option.

In the deep sea business, technology is putting a new twist in diving. Many companies are using ROVs and other remote technologies. Simply because it is safer and cheaper. If you are an electronics type that may be an area to look in to also. The best ROV operators are also 'bucket heads'.

As far as getting USN training for deep sea technology, you must be able to gain high access, a foreign national would have a real rough time there. Almost impossible, I said almost.

GOOD LUCK man and don't get discouraged.

Linus

1 December 2000, 07:44

OK!

Seems like I've got stuff to do, then! I'llkeep you posted on the proceedings if you like. Thank you for taking the time and effort to help me out!

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

TacticalRifleBKH

27 December 2000, 00:19

Hey fellas, sorry I been AWOl for a while, but unless your gonna make my car payment, I gotta go stomp mud from time to time.

Hope to hear from other members of this Dive Team soon. Thanks Bruce.....

soup82

5 February 2001, 01:15

Thought this forum was dead, where did all the live ones come from? I spent five years on a SF dive team, from CDQC to DMT and Dive Sup. When you guys talk about tactical diving, are you talking infils, surveillance, covert surveys and searches, etc. That means rebreathers and that means your costs just went way up. Clean rooms, hazardous material transport, etc. This is the part that should be contracted out. You could also contract out the training/maintenance. There are NG SF dive units. You could talk to them about support, and they are not federal troops, they belong to the state governor until Federalized. On tac water ops, SEAL's have the edge, but they are federal troops.

In Army SF, the water is just a way to get to work, but that transition from wet to dry is hard and dangerous (tactically). We spent an enormous amount of time practicing tactical infils. If you f/u and get spotted, you're pretty much helpless (re: f**ked)and more importantly, the mission is blown. Point is, it will take a lot of support to get a tac team up to snuff, no matter who trains them. That means lots of money, which requires lots of political support, which needs overwhelming reasons as to why they should support it. Out of all the things I did in the Army, tactical underwater ops took the most in terms of training, maintenance, equipment, and money. And the skills erode quickly unless maintained. Again, it was just a way for us to get to work, it wasn't our operating environment, as opposed to the SEAL's. They're expected to operate in the water (MCT, etc) and out of the water. As a minor part of SF with major budget needs, we really had to fight to keep our gear and training up to snuff. A lot of times we received questions about why we should have this capability, when the SEAL's already had it. My reply was that the Arabian Peninsula is surrounded on three sides by H20. If air cover is denied, shore infil skills are needed.

To sum up, trying to get a SWAT team up to snuff tactically for underwater ops might take as much money and political support as it does just to maintain their current standards and equipment.

Cheers,

Patrick LaRocque

TacticalRifleBKH

14 February 2001, 01:35

Pat, good to hear from you. I originally started this thread to discuss how L/E diving relates to the commercial diver, it has gone several directions which has enlighted me to many things to say the least. I'm glad to have taked to quite a few people on this board and look forward to discussing many more things here. I have zero experience with SF diving but have more working dives than I can remember in a working environment. It has been my experience that SpecWar divers make shitty hardhat divers, and Hardhat divers make terrible SpecWar divers, but hell who cares, when it is all said and done if the beer is cold and the women are nekkid, life is good... Be safe, I look forward to hearing from all of you in the future.....Linus...Please don't post that Pic of you in the dress over here on this board (You know the one you are wearing on SNIPERNET)LOL, I am still dying thinking bout you in that dress, Only Neoprene and Galvanized Rubber Dry suits allowed here, none of them Sweedish Ghillie Suits..HAHAHA
Later..........BH