SF SCUBA

[x:C-1/75 Ranger]

What are the swim requirements for graduation at the SCUBA School at Key West. What strokes are used, just sidestroke or others too? How bad do the crossovers get? Are they with tanks, fins, weight belt, and/or mask? I was a kid when I lived in Key West, is it still great? RLTW!

[Kolt]

Good questions, I'll wait for the answers.

What is a 'crossover' though? I've never heard of that term.

[bmf]

Can't speak much on SF as I am Navy.
I believe a "cross-over" is what we refer to as Over & Unders.
It's where you fresstyle crawl From one side of the pool to the other and upon reaching the side you duck down and cross to the other side underwater. On that side you freestyle across the surface to the other, continue to alternate and repeat........and repeat........and repeat.... they suck.

[x:C-1/75 Ranger]

I don't know from first hand experience as I haven't been to SCUBA School, but from what I have heard crossovers are where you swim the length of the pool without surfacing and being "harassed" by the instructors then resting a short period of time before repeating. I don't know what the length is or how many times this is done. I guess it can be comparable to the PJ's buddy breathing drill.

[DemoPup]

From what ranger says... that sounds like BUD/s Hell week. If what you say is true Ranger, and i believe ya, The length is probably 50 meters under water. Course dont' quote me on it... i'm not a SEAL yet.. and i aint' a sailor yet either.

[nightinsertion]

Not sure bout the crossover term. We just called it an underwater swim in BUD/S and yep it was 50 meters. We didnt get harassed by instrutors though. Shit it was enough trying to make the 50 without blacking out. The were just in the pool to pull the bodies out after they go limp from lack of breathing. Hehehe it kinda sucked

[SOTICgrad]

I think that the crossovers are the underwater swim, but they are the width of the pool, not length. But you keep doing it over and over with very short breaks.

Also, let's not forget the bobbing and doom ups.

[RAT]

A crossover is a 50 m underwater swim with a single breath hold. The swimmer has an instructor above them in case of a shallow water black out. The instructor makes sure the student is able to make the length of the pool. If this sounds like BUD/S that is because the NAVY controls all diving operations. Each service has it's own dive school (except the AF). The service then structures the school in accourdance with the mission or needs of the service.
MY .02
RAT OUT!!!

[Combat Diver in 85]

Just got here and resurfacing this old thread. There is no Graduation swim per se at CDQC. To get in you must be able to complete 500m swim using breast stroke or side stroke only. Retreive a 18lb clump for 3-4m. Swim 50m underwater in one breath and thread water for 2 minutes with hands and ears above water. During the course you will swim up to 3000m on the surface and up to 1500m subsurface with either open or closed circut.

As far as Crossovers they been banned. But the drill was to have both sides lined up in the deep end and on whistle take breath and go subsurface, swim to other side. One side went shallow (2m) and the other went deep (3m) therefore "crossing over" the other team. You wore twin tanks (72 or 80s), 16lb lead weights, BCM, Mask and fins. If you surfaced before the wall you got to do more. You only had a 15sec breather after the last guy surfaced before the whistle blew again. It was a smoker. You also had to watch out that you didn't run into somebody's tanks when crossing over.

De Oppresso Liber

[DFC5343]

Originally posted by DemoPup
From what ranger says... that sounds like BUD/s Hell week. If what you say is true Ranger, and i believe ya, The length is probably 50 meters under water. Course dont' quote me on it... i'm not a SEAL yet.. and i aint' a sailor yet either.

Change you screen name and stay outta what you don't know shit about. If that sounds harsh...too bad.

As for dive school...its all the same...they all take away your right to breath...

[NewportBarGuy]

4 years later and DFC nails him to the wall. :D

[XXNavy]

DFC is on top o things. eh ?

BTW, love the lobster avatar...

[B 2/75]

Originally posted by NewportBarGuy
4 years later and DFC nails him to the wall. :D

OH SHIT I JUST BLEW COFFEE ON THE DAMN SCREEN AND FELL OUTTA MY CHAIR HERE AT WORK.

DFC, just like XXNavy pointed out, is is a finely-tuned engine not missing a beat. HAR. :rolleyes:

[JimP]

Combat Diver 85// I can't believe they are banned!!! That's bullshit. I went through in '81. "...tighten up mister.....prepare to cross over...cross over. Someone go tell that guy at the bottom of the pool that break time's over!!"

Still gives me the chills.....

[DFC5343]

Shit...gotta scan 3 hundred threads, 3 thousand sentences and 3 hundred thousand words outta pie holes undesignated...I'm gonna make a mistake now and again...

[Combat Diver in 85]

JimP,

Don't remember exactly when during the 90s that crossovers where stop. Key West had someone with a bad heart die during crossovers. Crossovers was replaced with Navy drownproofing. That's a though exercise in itself but doesn't have the same stress factor that crossovers had.

De Oppresso Liber

[Purple36]

I recall going to a funeral at Fort Lewis for a 1SFG guy who died while in Scuba school. I believe it was his heart that gave out. It would've been 90-92 time frame.

[Xdeth]

Crossovers, bobbing, mask drills, malfunction/problem solving, general harassment, all have at least two functions. One is to learn how to stay calm and think under the pressure of well, pressure and no air. And two is to identify those that have an uncontrollable (often unconcious) fear of the water / being in water / not in total control, most (should) develop this fear through the training :) It has little to do with swimming ability. Crossovers could easily be replaced with something more tortuous, maybe not physically but mentally.

[scubasam_02]

yeah.. crossovers have been banned.. so now they do..."swim to that side underwater and do it again when we blow the whistle"s.. ;)

[j5irons]

I have to go to that school, in order to complete AST for CCT. The following is what the AF uses for it's courses at Key West. I am not sure if this is the same for the other branches. But read and enjoy.

Zero Week (4 Days)
This week is for completing prerequisites for beginning the actual course. The trainee is evaluated on the APFT, 25m underwater swim, 2 min treading water, 20-lb clump retrieval, 50m underwater swim, Oxygen tolerance, and 50 ft free ascent tower. Basic academics are also begun, including introduction to Dive Physics. The week ends with introduction to Open Curcuit SCUBA equipment, and "Introduction to Pool," which is where the candidates are introduced to "500,000 gallons of pure, chlorine-filled HATE." Trainees will conduct a rigorous PT session in the pool, including crossovers and "10-ups," where crossovers are conducted in between sets of pushups and flutter kicks. This is followed by jock-up drills, where proper donning of Open Circuit gear is taught.

Week One (5 Days)--POOL WEEK
Each morning during pool week begins at 0530 with PT. Monday and Wednesday three or four mile formation runs are accomplished at a 6:30 to 7 minute pace per mile. Tuesday and Thursday are fast formation run days: two miles at a 5:30-6 minute pace, followed by ten 100m sprints. Friday, the "long slow distance" day, is three miles at a 7 minute pace per mile. The run is followed by rigorous calisthenics in the sand PT pit. Verbal and physical abuse from instructors is common during this time.
PT is followed by the morning pool session. Every pool session begins with "remediation exercises"--calisthenics on the pool deck, including pushups, flutter kicks, lunges, squats, and 8-count bodybuilders while wearing full open circuit gear. All pool sessions also include drown proofing and a seven minute weight belt swim with 16 lbs. Monday and Tuesday are instruction days in the pool, where the basics of Open Circuit Diving are taught. Wednesday trainees are evaluated on underwater knot tying, equipment recovery, and proper ditching and donning of open circuit equipment. These events are not physically difficult, but students are graded on correct procedure and time. Thursday students are evaluated on the One Man Confidence Swim, or "One Man Comp." This requires a trainee to solve deficiencies put into his equipment by an instructor, to include tampering with or removal of his air source, while the instructor also simulates rough surf, making it more difficult to correct these problems. This task last twenty minutes, is conducted with the student wearing a blacked-out mask, and ends when the instructor puts the "whammy not" in the student's air hose, thus creating an unrecoverable air source. At this time, the student correctly ditches his open circuit gear, and the event is completed. Friday, One Man Comp reevaluations are conducted, as is the Two Man Confidence Swim evaluation. This is a buddy breathing exercise with harassment. Two instructors continuously disrupt the movement of each two-man team by placing deficiencies in, and taking away, equipment. This evaluation is timed at twenty minutes, and ends when the only gear the students have remaining is one set of open circuit tanks, which they must continue to buddy breathe from until informed that the exercise has ended.
Afternoons during pool week are spent conducting open water surface swims. Students wear full battle dress uniform, UDT vest, fins and mask. Monday is the 1000m buddy selection swim, where swim buddies for the rest of the course are determined based on finishing times. All other activities during this course will be done with that buddy. Tuesday and Wednesday are 1500 meter timed swims, with a maximum passing time of 42 minutes. Thursday is a 2000m swim with a maximum time of 60 minutes. The final evaluation is conducted Friday, and is a 3000m swim in 90 minutes. Point scores are awarded to each student based on finishing time, with a score of 74 or below constituting a failure if that swim. The student must have a total surface swim average of 75 points or better and pass the 3000m swim to graduate this portion of pool week. 3000m swim reevaluations are conducted on Saturday morning, and are immediately followed by Two Man Comp reevaluations.

Week Two (5 Days)-OPEN CIRCUIT WEEK
Each day except for Wednesday begins at 0530 with PT. Monday, Tuesday and Thursday the runs are the same distance as week one, but the pace per mile is 15 to 30 seconds faster. Friday the long slow distance run is five miles at a 7 minute pace per mile. Calisthenics follow each run.
Monday and Tuesday day and night open circuit navigation dives are completed. Students take turns manning the compass board as they navigate 1000m day and night, followed by 1500m day and night. Scores are awarded based on time of dive and accuracy of navigation. A score of 74 or below constitutes failure of that navigation dive; students must finish the navigation portion of the week with an average score of 75 or better to continue.
Wednesday is dedicated to the 130ft deep dive qualification. This takes place in the open water of the Atlantic Ocean.
Thursday morning is ocean bed search and recovery training. This is followed by day and night deep-water search and ship bottom search practical exercises in the Key West Coast Guard harbor. This is the last open circuit activity of the course.
Friday is the Introduction to Closed Circuit (Lar V Draeger) class, followed by hands on Closed Circuit training in the pool.
This week is the first of three day and night work weeks. Students should expect to get between two and four hours of sleep each night. At least four hours are spent in the classroom each day this week, with Dive Physics, Dive Tables, Dangerous Marine Life, and History of SCUBA being among the topics covered. The Midterm exam is taken at the end of week two, with a minimum passing score of 75.

Week Three (5 Days)-CLOSED CIRCUIT WEEK
PT is conducted each morning at 0530. Monday through Thursday are standard-distance runs, with the pace per mile 15 to 30 seconds faster than in week two. At least one of these runs may be conducted while wearing a weight belt or carrying weights. Friday's long slow distance is seven miles at a 7 to 7:30 pace per mile. Calisthenics are conducted as usual.
Monday through Thursday students conduct day and night Closed Circuit navigation dives. These begin at 1000m and increase to 2000m, with the same grading criteria as the Open Circuit navigation evaluations. Friday students are introduced to Special Warfare tactics and techniques, including scout swimming and subsurface infiltration. The afternoon is spent conducting practical exercises in the ocean.
Depth control training is conducted at Key West Harbor, and Submarine lock in/lock out simulation is done in the free ascent tower.
Every afternoon is spent in the classroom, studying Submarine lockout procedures, History of the Rebreather, Special Warfare tactics, and other subjects. The final, comprehensive academic exam is conducted at the end of this week, with a minimum score of 75 required to pass.

Week Four (4 Days)-SPECWAR OPS
PT Monday morning is a two mile run/1000m swim/1000m run/35 foot rope climb competition. This is followed by an infiltration exercise rehearsal in Key West Harbor. The actual infiltration exercise is carried out Monday night. This consists of insertion into the AO by dive boat, "turtle backing" 500m to the Harbor sea wall, and subsurface infiltration of Key West Harbor. Upon arriving at their destination, students must clear the beach, pull security in six man teams around a designated building, and retrieve pre-selected Precious Cargo. This exercise concludes with overland movement to another beach and exfiltration by Zodiac. This is the final dive of the course.
The final event of the course is the nine mile formation graduation run. This is conducted Wednesday morning and is done at a seven to eight minute per mile pace. This is a must-pass event to graduate the Combat Diver course. Failure to remain and finish with the formation will constitute automatic failure of this school.

[j5irons]

On a sidenote, according to that, crossovers are still in use!! OUCH!

[APC]

j5irons,

I would give credit where credit is due since you took that information from Specialtactics.com I would at least say "from the Specialtactics.com web site"...and I know you got TE's permission before taking the info and cutting and pasting here???

[j5irons]

Your absolutely right!! www.specialtactics.com And TE the site administrator runs a great site, with tons of useful information for USAF Special Ops.

[Jackal6]

I'm pretty sure they still use cross overs down in Key West. I know that we still use them up here for SCUBA selection and pre-SCUBA. I can say that they aren't exactly a whole lot of fun, even without tanks.

[craigrobertson]

Crossovers sound great - I'll be going to pre-scuba 16MAY-27MAY...so next month and WHEN I pass I go to CDQC 31May-02JUL

I guess I should start practicing them and continue to push myself in the pool and start my 100 4 count flutter kicks. I have a thread that you might want to look at Jackal6.

here's the link.

http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=392462#post392462

[charliemike60]

Originally posted by j5irons
I have to go to that school, in order to complete AST for CCT. The following is what the AF uses for it's courses at Key West. I am not sure if this is the same for the other branches. But read and enjoy.

Zero Week (4 Days)
This week is for completing prerequisites for beginning the actual course. The trainee is evaluated on the APFT, 25m underwater swim, 2 min treading water, 20-lb clump retrieval, 50m underwater swim, Oxygen tolerance, and 50 ft free ascent tower. Basic academics are also begun, including introduction to Dive Physics. The week ends with introduction to Open Curcuit SCUBA equipment, and "Introduction to Pool," which is where the candidates are introduced to "500,000 gallons of pure, chlorine-filled HATE." Trainees will conduct a rigorous PT session in the pool, including crossovers and "10-ups," where crossovers are conducted in between sets of pushups and flutter kicks. This is followed by jock-up drills, where proper donning of Open Circuit gear is taught.

Week One (5 Days)--POOL WEEK
Each morning during pool week begins at 0530 with PT. Monday and Wednesday three or four mile formation runs are accomplished at a 6:30 to 7 minute pace per mile. Tuesday and Thursday are fast formation run days: two miles at a 5:30-6 minute pace, followed by ten 100m sprints. Friday, the "long slow distance" day, is three miles at a 7 minute pace per mile. The run is followed by rigorous calisthenics in the sand PT pit. Verbal and physical abuse from instructors is common during this time.
PT is followed by the morning pool session. Every pool session begins with "remediation exercises"--calisthenics on the pool deck, including pushups, flutter kicks, lunges, squats, and 8-count bodybuilders while wearing full open circuit gear. All pool sessions also include drown proofing and a seven minute weight belt swim with 16 lbs. Monday and Tuesday are instruction days in the pool, where the basics of Open Circuit Diving are taught. Wednesday trainees are evaluated on underwater knot tying, equipment recovery, and proper ditching and donning of open circuit equipment. These events are not physically difficult, but students are graded on correct procedure and time. Thursday students are evaluated on the One Man Confidence Swim, or "One Man Comp." This requires a trainee to solve deficiencies put into his equipment by an instructor, to include tampering with or removal of his air source, while the instructor also simulates rough surf, making it more difficult to correct these problems. This task last twenty minutes, is conducted with the student wearing a blacked-out mask, and ends when the instructor puts the "whammy not" in the student's air hose, thus creating an unrecoverable air source. At this time, the student correctly ditches his open circuit gear, and the event is completed. Friday, One Man Comp reevaluations are conducted, as is the Two Man Confidence Swim evaluation. This is a buddy breathing exercise with harassment. Two instructors continuously disrupt the movement of each two-man team by placing deficiencies in, and taking away, equipment. This evaluation is timed at twenty minutes, and ends when the only gear the students have remaining is one set of open circuit tanks, which they must continue to buddy breathe from until informed that the exercise has ended.
Afternoons during pool week are spent conducting open water surface swims. Students wear full battle dress uniform, UDT vest, fins and mask. Monday is the 1000m buddy selection swim, where swim buddies for the rest of the course are determined based on finishing times. All other activities during this course will be done with that buddy. Tuesday and Wednesday are 1500 meter timed swims, with a maximum passing time of 42 minutes. Thursday is a 2000m swim with a maximum time of 60 minutes. The final evaluation is conducted Friday, and is a 3000m swim in 90 minutes. Point scores are awarded to each student based on finishing time, with a score of 74 or below constituting a failure if that swim. The student must have a total surface swim average of 75 points or better and pass the 3000m swim to graduate this portion of pool week. 3000m swim reevaluations are conducted on Saturday morning, and are immediately followed by Two Man Comp reevaluations.

Week Two (5 Days)-OPEN CIRCUIT WEEK
Each day except for Wednesday begins at 0530 with PT. Monday, Tuesday and Thursday the runs are the same distance as week one, but the pace per mile is 15 to 30 seconds faster. Friday the long slow distance run is five miles at a 7 minute pace per mile. Calisthenics follow each run.
Monday and Tuesday day and night open circuit navigation dives are completed. Students take turns manning the compass board as they navigate 1000m day and night, followed by 1500m day and night. Scores are awarded based on time of dive and accuracy of navigation. A score of 74 or below constitutes failure of that navigation dive; students must finish the navigation portion of the week with an average score of 75 or better to continue.
Wednesday is dedicated to the 130ft deep dive qualification. This takes place in the open water of the Atlantic Ocean.
Thursday morning is ocean bed search and recovery training. This is followed by day and night deep-water search and ship bottom search practical exercises in the Key West Coast Guard harbor. This is the last open circuit activity of the course.
Friday is the Introduction to Closed Circuit (Lar V Draeger) class, followed by hands on Closed Circuit training in the pool.
This week is the first of three day and night work weeks. Students should expect to get between two and four hours of sleep each night. At least four hours are spent in the classroom each day this week, with Dive Physics, Dive Tables, Dangerous Marine Life, and History of SCUBA being among the topics covered. The Midterm exam is taken at the end of week two, with a minimum passing score of 75.

Week Three (5 Days)-CLOSED CIRCUIT WEEK
PT is conducted each morning at 0530. Monday through Thursday are standard-distance runs, with the pace per mile 15 to 30 seconds faster than in week two. At least one of these runs may be conducted while wearing a weight belt or carrying weights. Friday's long slow distance is seven miles at a 7 to 7:30 pace per mile. Calisthenics are conducted as usual.
Monday through Thursday students conduct day and night Closed Circuit navigation dives. These begin at 1000m and increase to 2000m, with the same grading criteria as the Open Circuit navigation evaluations. Friday students are introduced to Special Warfare tactics and techniques, including scout swimming and subsurface infiltration. The afternoon is spent conducting practical exercises in the ocean.
Depth control training is conducted at Key West Harbor, and Submarine lock in/lock out simulation is done in the free ascent tower.
Every afternoon is spent in the classroom, studying Submarine lockout procedures, History of the Rebreather, Special Warfare tactics, and other subjects. The final, comprehensive academic exam is conducted at the end of this week, with a minimum score of 75 required to pass.

Week Four (4 Days)-SPECWAR OPS
PT Monday morning is a two mile run/1000m swim/1000m run/35 foot rope climb competition. This is followed by an infiltration exercise rehearsal in Key West Harbor. The actual infiltration exercise is carried out Monday night. This consists of insertion into the AO by dive boat, "turtle backing" 500m to the Harbor sea wall, and subsurface infiltration of Key West Harbor. Upon arriving at their destination, students must clear the beach, pull security in six man teams around a designated building, and retrieve pre-selected Precious Cargo. This exercise concludes with overland movement to another beach and exfiltration by Zodiac. This is the final dive of the course.
The final event of the course is the nine mile formation graduation run. This is conducted Wednesday morning and is done at a seven to eight minute per mile pace. This is a must-pass event to graduate the Combat Diver course. Failure to remain and finish with the formation will constitute automatic failure of this school. I can remember hearing the phrase "It pays to be a winner" How true those words would be...not only then but in all things in life-Semper Fi/ Charliemike out

[craigrobertson]

Charliemike,

The information from the previous post is from Specialtactics.com/scuba

-Thank you



Does anyone know what a good number of crossovers would be?

Are they done the length or width of the pool.

Length of the pool I swim in is 25M.



-robertson

[charliemike60]

Originally posted by craigrobertson
Charliemike,

The information from the previous post is from Specialtactics.com/scuba

-Thank you



Does anyone know what a good number of crossovers would be?

Are they done the length or width of the pool.

Length of the pool I swim in is 25M.



-robertson -Roger. Had you recognized the phrase you would know "the rest of the story". Good luck and train hard-S/Fi CM out

[Ranger5280]

Originally posted by craigrobertson
Crossovers sound great


Crossovers are not great. Trust me on this one.

Crossovers are done the width of the pool.

Don't think about the number of crossovers. If they still do crossovers you won't be the one counting. Do as many as you can.

Here's a very good tip. If you get to Key West loosen up a bit. Don't be so intense that you're uptight in the water.

[HardHat]

Do they still run the WIC course down there? That was another fun school.

[stupormunky]

This is my first post, I am a MS2, or second year cadet, and have been ghosting for a few months in preparation for Pre-CDQC (May17-27) in addition to integration in the community (*trying* not to make an ass of myself in front of certain individuals-and failing)

I am working w/ the OIC of ROTC Pre-Scuba/CDQC ROTC liason officer as well as a cadet alumni training me.

Here's some information as I know it:

Tank tread is gone as of this year; there is now a weight belt tread (w/ fins). They've been having me do that with a charged mask (get used to doing EVERYTHING on that list with a mask full of water-esp flutter kicks-sounds easy, but water in your sinuses when your sucking air sucks)

Be a damn good swimmer-at least 20 minutes with the belts.

UDT is similar to the side stroke, but it is different. Make sure you are on your side, don't even get near your back or stomach.

Everything is a GO/NOGO, so challenge yourself and do more than the minimum-for example, do a 25 underwater, tie the double knot, take a breath, recover the knots, and return to staring position.

Everything is attention to detail. Realistically, 2 Majors and/or 3 Minors and we're gone. That's as simple as not lining up our equipment uniformly.

Love drown-proofing. It's the best part of the day.

Last year, every ROTC cadet who made it through Pre got his bubble. I'll see you there.

[craigrobertson]

stupormunky,

Thanks for the information. Your not clear on some points:

do a 25 underwater, tie the double knot, take a breath, recover the knots, and return to staring position.



25M underwater tie the double knot?
What is the starting position?

What do you mean by

Realistically, 2 Majors and/or 3 Minors and we're gone. That's as simple as not lining up our equipment uniformly.



Thank you-


-Robertson

[stupormunky]

You're absolutly right, sorry, I got caught up in the lingo.


The starting position for all underwater swims is just off the wall, ie. no pushoffs. so the practice drill for knots/uw would be:

1. From starting pos swim 25 uw.
2. Tie the "end of the line bowline" and a "girth hitch w/ an extra turn".
3. Surface and breath.
4. Recover the knot and swim 25 uw to starting pos.

Remember not to do this w/o a lifeguard on duty, it's not worth it!


A Major is a major safety violation, such as bolting to the surface.
A Minor is a minor safety violation, such as having a strap unsecure on your mask.


One more thing; when you surface from uw's hold one hand in a fist to your pectoral, your other in a fist straight up, and look up (picture superman flying). This is to prevent your noggin torpedoing a boat. The surfacing rate is 1ft/2seconds, anything faster and it's considered panicking = bad.

This is what I have been taught, so i don't know everything, but if you have any more questions, feel free to ask and I will answer to the best of my abilities, or ask higher.

GL, I'll see you there.

[scuba_sam]

Good info Stupormonkey..

What school are you at now?

[craigrobertson]

Hey I just want to say I hope all of you have been training and I will see you all Sunday at Ft.Lewis!


Good Luck!


Craig