Opinions on Vaccinations

[gts375]

Gentlemen,

Didn't find much on this in searching the site. I'm expecting my first kid in March and I've heard a lot of debate lately on whether to vaccinate or not. Before I found out we were having a baby, this was something I never gave a thought to.

I saw something the other day about the Jenny McCarthy Vs. Amanda Peet debate on vaccinations causing autism, and I really wouldn't want medical advice from either of them...so if anyone has any good sources to refer me to, fire away.

Like many of you, I've probably had more shots than a human would need in 10 lifetimes...never had any problems. But, I know that isn't exactly scientific.

On a lighter note, if you have any good suggestions for Warrior baby names, I'm all ears too. My wife already ruled out Invictus.

Any help is appreciated - Thanks

[MPCOA]

If you plan on using any kind of daycare or sending your kid to school, you will want to get them.

John Wayne is a great warrior name, wife nixed it for me though. So I went with Ryder for mounted warrior.

[Longrifle]

I saw something the other day about the Jenny McCarthy Vs. Amanda Peet debate on vaccinations causing autism, and I really wouldn't want medical advice from either of them...

Good. Talk with a pediatrician and get the facts, not some personalities' opinions.

Thor is good, or Victor. My principal's son is named Battle. :cool:

[307th_ACE]

A little out of my lane, but it seems to me talking a baby Doc or 3 that you trust and "averaging" the results might be a good approach.

As for warrior names (scratching head) how about Gavin, as in Gen. James?

Congrats on the young 'un.

[BackInTheDay]

Opinions are like assholes....

One of the great truisms about child-rearing is that you will fuck something up. Cant avoid it. Having said that, you are correct to do research and seek out advice.

I suggest this link is a great place to start. I am on my second set of kids (20 years apart) and they have all the recommended vaccines.

Having said that, there is a dad at the playground we play at that is absolutley convinced that his sons autism was caused by vaccines. I am sure if I had an austisic child i would need to find the reason as well.

Their is a lot of finger pointing at the mercury that is used as a preservative in the vaccines.

Read the experts. Ignore the non-experts. Trust your pediatirician. My pediatrician administered the same vaccines to his child as mine. Hopefully he isnt playing Russian Roulette with his kid.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/vaccines.htm

[ekaphoto]

There are a bunch of left wing hippies that have some screwed up idea vacinations MAY cause autism. No scientfic proof. What is proven is the viruses that you vaccinate against can KILL your kid. Even IF there was a chance it caused autism, the chances of autism vs kids getting desease I would go with the vaccinations. I would get the vaccinations if it were my kid, but it's your kid, if some hollyweird bimbo with silicone chest says no its your kid not mine so make your choice.

[low country]

Not to get into a personal story, but I would reccomend getting the vaccinations, but on an "alternate" schedule. This gets your baby all of the required and necessary vaccinations without having to get up to five vaccinations at one time. Instead of getting "X" amount of shots at one time, they are spread out over a period of several months.

Ask your pediatrician and they should be able to help you out. They should also have reliable info regarding any issues with the current lot number of the vaccines that your child is receiving.

Congrats on your first. They are a blessing from God!

[grappler]

Not to get into a personal story, but I would reccomend getting the vaccinations, but on an "alternate" schedule. This gets your baby all of the required and necessary vaccinations without having to get up to five vaccinations at one time. Instead of getting "X" amount of shots at one time, they are spread out over a period of several months.

Ask your pediatrician and they should be able to help you out. They should also have reliable info regarding any issues with the current lot number of the vaccines that your child is receiving.



X100,000,000

My wife did a ton of research on this before our daughter was born and this is what we did/do.

Yes, the Doctors will role their eyes at you, but when you think about it, that's a shit ton of vac's to put into such a little body at one time.

Yes, opinions are like assholes, this is just mine.

Congrats!!

[Sharky]

My son is autistic. He started showing symptoms only weeks after he received his vaccinations. I have no idea whether the vaccinations caused his autism or not. I can tell you that if/when I ever have a second child, it will be vaccinated. I'd rather risk the vaccinations than have to live with myself if my child died because I made a bad decision and didn't get the vaccinations.

[smp52]

I was raised abroad for some years and having seen/known a few kids who did NOT get vaccinations (like polio), the risk of taking them is more than justifiable. Vaccinations help hedge the bets, nothing will protect anyone 100%. There are always exceptions to the facts. We live in a pretty clean environment in the west, however if one is to ever travel outside our clean confines, the immune system would have to fight off an onslaught of organisms it hasn't seen or been vaccinated against.

[Greenhat]

I'm a father. My daughter has had all her vaccinations. Life's a risk. You make the best choices you can. We have a great pediatrician, she recommended the vaccinations and spread them out (no discussion of an optional schedule, she recommended spreading them out because of my daughter's epilepsy).

[mdb23]

My kid has had the full series....wouldn't do it any other way. Like others have said, life is about calculated risk....nothing is 100%, but I feel much more comfortable with her being vaccinated.

[ironpaw]

There are a bunch of left wing hippies that have some screwed up idea vacinations MAY cause autism. No scientfic proof. What is proven is the viruses that you vaccinate against can KILL your kid. Even IF there was a chance it caused autism, the chances of autism vs kids getting desease I would go with the vaccinations.

+1...cept that left wing hippie is my MIL who is a major pain in the ass. She's into all this natural medicine and homopath bullshit and feeds my wife all sorts of crap about the evil of immunisation...even when I get sick she says "ITS BECAUSE YOU WERE POISONED BY THE MERCURY IN THE VACCINE!!!".

After a couple of weeks of playing Mr Nice Guy, I told her to STFU (well, more like STHU :p) and told her all my kids are going to get the full dose of everything they're supposed to have...

I did a bit of research myself and found that most of the arguements against vaccination tend to end up with the same conspiracy/tin foil crap: big pharma wants our $$$, blah blah blah.

[jasonglh]

Our pediatrician vaccinated his children and grandchildren with the same vaccines my daughter gets what more proof do I need? Most every Doc around says he is top notch and take their own children to him.

We talked to the Doc at length about autism and the vaccines and he relayed this to us. Many people think their kids suddenly developed autism but specialists could 99% of the time review video of the children at an early age and spot the autistic ones. People more often then not see what they want to see.

I have seen Jenny on tv talking about how she "cured" her son. I seriously doubt that and it sucks she will get some peoples hopes up.

[Bravo Five Romeo]

There are a bunch of left wing hippies that have some screwed up idea vacinations MAY cause autism. No scientfic proof. What is proven is the viruses that you vaccinate against can KILL your kid. Even IF there was a chance it caused autism, the chances of autism vs kids getting desease I would go with the vaccinations. I would get the vaccinations if it were my kid, but it's your kid, if some hollyweird bimbo with silicone chest says no its your kid not mine so make your choice.Yes and no. The proof is hard to come by... exactly how it happens.
But there is reasonable cause to believe there may be a conection.
Get vaccinated by all means... just spread the shots out.
+1...cept that left wing hippie is my MIL who is a major pain in the ass. She's into all this natural medicine and homopath bullshit and feeds my wife all sorts of crap about the evil of immunisation...even when I get sick she says "ITS BECAUSE YOU WERE POISONED BY THE MERCURY IN THE VACCINE!!!".

After a couple of weeks of playing Mr Nice Guy, I told her to STFU (well, more like STHU :p) and told her all my kids are going to get the full dose of everything they're supposed to have...

I did a bit of research myself and found that most of the arguements against vaccination tend to end up with the same conspiracy/tin foil crap: big pharma wants our $$$, blah blah blah.Yep... if you do a lot of research you will discover the exact connection has not been scientificly proven... that's simply because it is so hard to say exactly what nongenetic (external) factors cause autism and how the hell it happens.
As to the research you can do on line... yes, you will discover that a lot of defenders of MMR vaccines say the conection can not be scientificly proven.
But the link should not be dismissed.

----------------------------------

My sons were part of a scientific study helping make the case against the MMR vaccine.

I have geneticly identical twin boys.
One started showing signs of autism shortly after his MMR shot.
He was diagnosed with autism.
His brother was not.

They were an important case study.
Because they were geneticly identical it proved that my one son's form of autism was not genetic, but caused by an external factor.

Sadly, this is about money.
Yes... many doctors and pharmacutical companies are saying there is no connection.
Just as for years there were countless experts arguing that cigarettes were safe.

Get your child vaccinated of course... but spread the shots out over a period of time.
Yes, it's more needles over more visits, but it's better to be safe.

The jury may still be out on whether MMR vaccinations cause autism, but not for me.
I had two normal geneticly identical sons... then thirteen years ago they had their MMR shots and now I have one normal son and one functional autistic one.

[Soot]

My wife and I just went through this not too long ago.

The culprit here seems to be the MMR vaccine in general and more specifically one preservative (or something like that) that was used to manufacture the vaccine during a particular time period.

To the best of my understanding that preservative is no longer used in any of the vaccine that is currently being used in the United States.

Additionally, there was never any scientific or medical study that established conclusively that the vaccine or the preservative were responsible for, or in some way contributed to, the onset of autisim.

The one study that did claim to establish a connection was criticized on the grounds that the methodology was bad (if I recall correctly the study group was much too small for the type of study they were doing) and it was later discredited by the majority of doctors/scientists who participated in it.

After doing a bunch of reading and talking with doctors I came away with the impression that the relationship between the MMR vaccine and autisim was corralative rather than causitive. The MMR vaccine is ordinarially administered in a series of two injections beginning between 12 and 18 months. Of the three perditricians I interviewed all three waited until the child was 18 months to begin the series unless extenuating circumstances (travling outside of the country, moving abroad, some threat of exposure to the viruses) dictated it be begun earlier.

The first vaccination would be given at the 18 month checkup and the follow-up vaccination a month or two later.

Autisim is usually first detectable in a child at around the two year mark.

Between the discredited study I mentioned earlier and the coincidence of vaccination at 18 to 20 months with autisim detection at 24 it seems a lot of people began to suspect a connection that there's really no good, solid reason to believe is there.

Further, when you begin to look into what the medical and scientific communities reasonably do suspect of being involved with causing autisim it is never a single thing. You never read about this chemical or this gene or this whatever being responsible. Best guess right now seems to be that it's a lot of different things acting in concert. Maybe the MMR vaccine is one of them, more likely, it seems right now, it's not.

My son is 15 months right now and he's scheduled to recieve the first vaccination for MMR at his next checkup in a few weeks.

That's the right decission for me.

There's a lot of information available on the internet. If you google CDC + MMR + autisim they have a pretty good report on it.

[jasonglh]

That was my understanding from the Doc as well that after the first MMR is around the time you might start noticing developmental problems.

Its tricky research and it seems they all have an agenda of some sort.

[bobofthedesert]

I never had any vaccinations whatsoever until I joined the Army at 17. The doctor at Basic couldn't believe it, had the Drill Sgt. leave me behind for a few minutes to talk to me, he acted like it wasn't possible to survive childhood without them.....

I did get both mumps and chicken pox between 10 and 14 yrs of age. They're not fatal, and mumps makes you look like a fucking chipmunk....

Having a note from the parents exempting me from having a needle stuck in my arm when everyone else had to have it made me real popular.....:rolleyes:

I'd say get the shots for stuff that can seriously mess you up, like polio, maybe pass on the rest until out of infancy.......but I'm sure opinions will differ....

[307th_ACE]

Sorry to hear about your boy Bravo Five Romeo.

Since ETS (too long ago), and after a few other jobs, I have morphed into a Ph.D. student studying analytical biochemistry (mostly focused on protein expression under different conditions -- proteomics if you want a name) destined (hopefully) for the 'evil' drug industry. Have also done a lot of molecular and evolutionary genetics work (mostly on model systems).

Scoot and Bravo Five, after putting your posts together, I just wanted to say that there are very few diseases or conditions that can be isolated to "this chemical" or "that gene". Living organisms are extremely complicated systems, especially when you start talking about genes and proteins and all the many interactions they have and modifications they undertake -- it's incredibly mind boggling really.

I am amazed that human studies were even allowed on this subject -- tells me that there is a lot of evidence to support the idea that something is not right with the current vaccines.

This does not mean you should not get your child vaccinated ( just to be clear, I am definitely absolutely not a Doc -- and not current on this issue -- please talk to a couple of baby Docs).

Sorry about the bold, but I feel that this is important and do not want to be misunderstood. I will be doing a little (paper) research into this issue now because I am interested and it falls into the field that I am interested -- but just as a potential future area of investigation for me.

I would like to put forward that in order for a disease, or other condition to manifest itself requires the correct genes, the correct timing, and the correct triggers (genes are the gun -- environment and timing are the trigger, and proteins are bullet as I used to tell my biochem students). On a personal level, I think that the benefits getting a child vaccinated against common childhood diseases far outweigh the risk -- but as I said, a baby Doc would know more -- ask a few, I taught biochemistry to some of the ones that are wandering around out there -- they aren't any brighter than your average grunt -- best to get a few opinions from practicing Docs you can meet face to face and form a critical opinion of.

Again, sorry to hear about your boy Bravo Five Romeo -- hope I have not overstepped my bounds by saying what I have. Hope even more it helps gts375 make an informed decision.

BTW.... How about Maximus -- Max is a cool name -- and Maximus -- freaking warrior name if I ever heard one.

[pittsburghgrl]

My wife and I just went through this not too long ago.

The culprit here seems to be the MMR vaccine in general and more specifically one preservative (or something like that) that was used to manufacture the vaccine during a particular time period.

To the best of my understanding that preservative is no longer used in any of the vaccine that is currently being used in the United States.


The preservative is Thimerisol (mercury based). From what I've read it SHOULDN'T be used here int he US anymore but it's always best to ask.

[PocketKings]

My 2 daughters are not vaccinated. I've had more discussions on this with more people than I care to relate. Among those people are my brother and sister in law (both Peds as well as allergy/immunology board certified), my wife (chiropractor) and my mother (teacher for 35+ years). My mom has seen children begin to display autistic traits after a shot sched and she's convinced (anecdotal, I know) that the vaccines were a part.

My conclusions are a mix of what people posted. Vaccines and what's in them probably don't cause autism themselves. However, they may be a part of a combination of things that can lead to autism. My wife and I have decided to delay the shot schedule much like Soot.

And, as an aside; anyone who takes a hard line approach on this issue for either camp is myopic and uninformed. Spend one day in the library on this and you'll see that it's not black and white AT ALL. It amazes me how uptight people get on this topic.

[yojinbukai]

Vaccinations will be a moot point of contention when your children begin attending school. They'll be required for all public school attendance and probably most private schools as well.

Kind of like the recent legislation reform regarding lead testing... the government's way "knowing best."

http://www.20000-names.com/warrior_names_fighter_names_male.htm (Mozilla stopped 1 popup from that page, btw)

Named my son Jonah Remington... As we are several generations from the Clan Cassidae and Clan Battle lines that my Grandparents came from.

I heard about an old O-5 in Korea who named his son Claymore.

[C-M-R]

My son is autistic. He started showing symptoms only weeks after he received his vaccinations. I have no idea whether the vaccinations caused his autism or not. I can tell you that if/when I ever have a second child, it will be vaccinated. I'd rather risk the vaccinations than have to live with myself if my child died because I made a bad decision and didn't get the vaccinations.

100% dead on. Zac was fine and progressing like he was supposed to. He had a series of shoots and started losing speech function and showing some other symptoms. Chief of Peds at Womack said it was pervasive developmental delay. Autism is part of the PDD spectrum.

Because of early intervention and some serious work through EDIS Zac is on regular classes but it's been a fight.

Here's what I would given the chance for a do-over -

Spread the shots out rather than all at once and make sure they are Thimerosal free. From what I understand all infant vaccines are supposed to be. I've read a lot about this and a lot of people think there isn't a link between the shots and development. I disagree but no way would I not get his shots.

[Hard H2O]

My daughter was among the first kids to get the Rotavirus Vaccine. Shortly thereafter she developed stomach distress. We couldn't do anything to calm her. A few calls and a trip to urgent care did nothing. A few days and she was fine. Later we learned that a few kids had died after getting the new vaccine. The CDC stopped the use soon after.

Later studies have shown that the cases were probably just coincidental to the vaccine. 15 years of study and millions of dollars down the tube for the drug company due to what was probably coincidence.

From what I have seen and read the risks of the disease and illness from not vaccinating do not outweigh the possible side effects from the vaccines.

Measles is on the uprise in the UK due to kids not getting vaccinated.

One kind of socialist aspect to our wide spread vaccinations here in the US is that you getting your kid vaccinated not only protects them but collectively we are all protected due to the decreased incidence of the diseases.

[RetPara]

My .32 cents..... Vaccinations are good... the way we are doing them are bad...

Vaccinations used to come in individual flavors like Ruebela, ChickenPox, Yellow Fever, and so on...

Now they come in 5 in 1 single shot doses. I don't have a good feeling about the combo's.

[grahamcracker977]

Great topic.
First, I'm not a parent but I am a registered nurse. Let me say that it's a miracle that any child comes out completely healthy and normal...so many things have to occur right during fetal development.
That being said...
Please discuss this with your pediatrician. If they give you attitude seek out another provider. The public is much more educated about options and your physician should be willing to discuss the pros/cons without judgement.
I work with in surgery with an OB/GYN who has two autistic children. He believes this was a result of vaccinations. With that situation I wonder if it's genetic. Two out of three children are autistic.
I have a cousin who has a child with asperger's syndrome (mild form of autism). He has three other siblings...all were vaccinated and he's the only one with issues.
I will say that I would hate to see any child suffer through whooping cough, diptheria, etc. I would lean towards vaccination.

[grahamcracker977]

I do recall my other half going to a chiropractor after being involved in a car wreck. This practice was suggested to us by close friends.
It was reported that before treatment could begin all "new" patients had to go through orientation. This consisted of a video about how vaccinations are unhealthy/dangerous and included a Q/A session afterwards. I asked if you could bypass the video. The answer was no.
I think people get good results from some chiropractic treatments but I wouldn't be cool with going through an indoc of why this particular doc was against vaccinations. I opted not to get treatment at this facility.

[ex]

Sharky and B5R, I too am sorry to hear about your sons. :(

GTS, good on ya for researching this topic so thoroughly. 18 years ago, I blindly had my two babies given vaccines because that's what the doctor told me to do. Thank God, we didn't have any complications. It sounds like you're getting great advice here; spreading out the shots definitely seems like a reasonable compromise.

As for names, it's hard to suggest a first name without know what your last name is! When I was pregnant, we discussed names. My ex's suggestion was Stone. :rolleyes: I pulled out my family tree and found I had a great, great grandfather named John Steel. He thought that was an extremely bad-ass name and decided that our son would be named Steel. Steel Blais - that's a porn star name if I ever heard one! LOL! It took me a few weeks to talk him into making Steel the middle name.

Of course, now that my son is 18, he's pissed that his first name isn't Steel. :redface:

[Soot]

The preservative is Thimerisol (mercury based). From what I've read it SHOULDN'T be used here int he US anymore but it's always best to ask.

l'll double check with our doc. Thank you.

[Bravo Five Romeo]

Vaccinations used to come in individual flavors like Ruebela, ChickenPox, Yellow Fever, and so on...

Now they come in 5 in 1 single shot doses. I don't have a good feeling about the combo's.Bingo.
Bottom line:
The link between autism and the combo MMR shot has not been proven.
BUT...
There is a reasonable cause to believe it may exist.

Vaccinate your kids... they need it.
Just spread the shots out.
The convenience of the combo shot is not worth the risk.

Rememer:
You are vaccinating your kids to avoid risk... just in case.
So why not spread the shots out for the same reason?

[PocketKings]

Bingo.
Bottom line:
The link between autism and the combo MMR shot has not been proven.
BUT...
There is a reasonable cause to believe it may exist.

Vaccinate your kids... they need it.
Just spread the shots out.
The convenience of the combo shot is not worth the risk.

Rememer:
You are vaccinating your kids to avoid risk... just in case.
So why not spread the shots out for the same reason?

This is exactly what my own research has led to.

[Joe33]

I'm a father. My daughter has had all her vaccinations. Life's a risk. You make the best choices you can. We have a great pediatrician, she recommended the vaccinations and spread them out (no discussion of an optional schedule, she recommended spreading them out because of my daughter's epilepsy).

Greenhat's and mdb23 posts X 2 here. I have 2 little boys and both have been fully-vaccinated. Our pediatrician is also a close family friend (w/ 2 kids of her own) and she has always scoffed at the notion of not getting your kids vaccinated because of autism. And she did also say that keeping the shots spread is advisable, so that's what we did.The risk of contracting serious diseases because of non-vaccination is much larger than (and scientifically-proven) vs. contracting autism from vaccines (not proven)- sorry I don't mean to be redundant, just agreeing given my experience. I am not the expert here - just going by what our pediatrician and other doctor friends have advised us.

There is a chance that you will be killed in a car crash BECAUSE you are wearing a seat belt. (happened to a distant family member of mine) But I'll take my chances with the seatbelt on.

My heart and prayers go out to any parent dealing with an autistic child - I can't imagine. God Bless Sharky and B5R and your little ones. The little I've seen of Jenny McCarthy gives me the impression she has alot of anger and bitterness, which probably impedes objectivity. That's not a judgement because I'm sure I'd be angry, confused etc. too. Just an observation and I'm sure her motives are honorable- just sayin'.

Plus she's still hot so that counts for something.

[gts375]

Thanks to all for the input and personal perspectives. I'll definitely be doing more research and discussing with the pediatrician in our selection process. It's funny the chiropractor angle came up...On New Year's Eve one of my best friends who is a chiro made a comment about how crazy it is to vaccinate anyone. We got into a friendly (kind of) argument because I didn't think you could just issue a blanket dismissal of vaccinations - we settled on dropping the argument and doing shots.

I'll keep you posted on the name decision.

[WS-G]

...chicken pox....
Now that there's a vaccine for that, it makes sense to have it administered instead of the once-routine practice of deliberately exposing one's kid to the pox. With chickenpox, a single attack does provide lifetime immunity to ever getting it again, however a connection has been identified between chickenpox in early life and shingles in later life. There's a vaccine for shingles also, but it's costly.

mumps... not fatal, and mumps makes you look like a fucking chipmunk....
If there is/was any testicular inflammation associated with it, this disease can cause male sterility.

[Gotrek]

Talk about a sticky topic with some muddy waters. I am not a doctor, or an expert. I am one of those who does not trust the higher echelons of the pharmacutical industry.

I do not trust them, or the law makers allied with them. Some things are necessary evils. Vaccinations are one of them.

But, can anyone on either side truly say what is causing what? The bigger question is, what happens if these vaccines cause autism?
And more importantly, what will happen if there are those in the pharmacutical industry who knew this, and supressed it?
Well, if this turns into another Bayer Vaccine incident, then I guess nothing will happen to the executives, or the members of the FDA who kept their mouths shut about it. :mad:

Bayer Knowingly Sold HIV-Contaminated Vaccines, Say Internal Documents
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg-52mHIjhs



Vaccines and Autism.

Congressman Dan Burton on the Politics of Autism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f_s8WcfUMM&feature=related

Robert Kennedy on the Vaccine Autism Coverup
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrIM2hwrLoc&NR=1

I tried to find an unaltered version of these videos, without some one elses subtitles inserted into them.
CDC No Association between vaccines and autism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh-nkD5LSIg


Vaccine-autism link acknowledged by government in Georgia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8T3BsOI81Q

Dr. Jon Pangborn on The Vaccine Autism Connection
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Ni6Io53L4&feature=related


Girls HPV Vaccine - Gardasil Possible Adverse health effects?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND85hYDurv4


Since you are expecting a new edition to your family, I thought this FYI may be of interest.
I admit, I do not like it. I have read conflicting information regarding whether a parent can opt out of any portion of this.
If anyone could tell me what secondary conditions there are, I would appreciate it.


The key complaints for this, are listed below.


Brase states that S.1858 and H.R. 3825, the House version of the bill, will:

* Establish a national list of genetic conditions for which newborns and children are to be tested.

* Establish protocols for the linking and sharing of genetic test results nationwide.

* Build surveillance systems for tracking the health status and health outcomes of individuals diagnosed at birth with a genetic defect or trait.

* Use the newborn screening program as an opportunity for government agencies to identify, list, and study "secondary conditions" of individuals and their families.

* Subject citizens to genetic research without their knowledge or consent.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=63112

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=60643

http://www.cchconline.org/

[rgrjoe175]

Too bad they don't have a vaccine for dumbass.


JP

[Guy]

Too bad they don't have a vaccine for dumbass.


JPThe cost would be astronomical! I'd start with Hamas...anyone stupid enough to shoot rockets at their next door neighbors and BELIEVE; They won't retaliate is a dumbass.

"If I was to poke Mike Tyson in the forehead over a period of time. I'm pretty sure that crazy bastard would hit me."

I'm not implying Israel is crazy however, I'd understand if they flattened Gaza.:smile:

Sorry for the slight interruption folks....

Stay safe.

[C-M-R]

Too bad they don't have a vaccine for dumbass.


JP

I could have sworn there was one for that. Isn't is called euthanasia? youth in asia - sheesh I crack myself up.

[C-M-R]

My .32 cents..... Vaccinations are good... the way we are doing them are bad...

Vaccinations used to come in individual flavors like Ruebela, ChickenPox, Yellow Fever, and so on...

Now they come in 5 in 1 single shot doses. I don't have a good feeling about the combo's.

Yep. I honestly believe that is the problem. three kids and only Zac had troubles. Dana and Jake had a series of shots but they got theirs like one at a time. They ran the usual fevers and crankiness but nothing major. With Zac it was a totally different story. I have video tape of him talking, trying to sing, learning to count...all of it. Less than 3 month later the child couldn't even say "drink." He'd take my hand and put it on the fridge when he wanted water.

There are so many reasons for kids to be autistic and who knows what to believe. What I do know is he was fine and a normal baby - and then he wasn't. The only thing that happened was the shots. He didn't have a flu or ear infection or anything. He just seemed to stop all progress and started to go backwards.

Great observation RP!

[KidA]

Name: Isambard Kingdom Maxwell (your last name).

Isambard Kingdom because it's just the most bad-ass name of all time, plus he was a brilliant engineer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isambard_Kingdom_Brunel

Maxwell because it was my Grandfather's middle name and it's just cool (he was a Scot: Angus Maxwell) and I wish I had it. Hell I wish I had the name Angus.

[Sharky]

With Zac it was a totally different story. I have video tape of him talking, trying to sing, learning to count...all of it. Less than 3 month later the child couldn't even say "drink." He'd take my hand and put it on the fridge when he wanted water.

There are so many reasons for kids to be autistic and who knows what to believe. What I do know is he was fine and a normal baby - and then he wasn't. The only thing that happened was the shots. He didn't have a flu or ear infection or anything. He just seemed to stop all progress and started to go backwards.



That's exactly what happened to my son. Exactly. Something changed in his eyes at that time too. I've never been able to explain it. Still cant. It was like he could look right through you. Like you werent even there. It was like the fire in his eyes went out. That's the only way I can explain it, but I'll never forget it.

[ex]

At the risk of being ridiculed for my TV viewing choices, I just watched the show "Private Practices". The story line was about a mother with three children; the oldest was autistic. The mother blamed the autism on his vaccinations, so she didn't have the younger two vaccinated. One of the younger boys came down with the measles and became very sick. The doctor vaccinated the third boy without the mother's permission in order to protect him (which would be wrong on many levels). It ends with the sick boy dying from the measles.

I thought it was an interesting social commentary. This must be a pretty hot topic to make it onto a network TV show.

[grahamcracker977]

Ex, TV shows always cause me to get dirty looks from my other half! I get the, relax it's just a show line...I digress.
Let's go with the example of a Jehovas Witness. If it's a minor and the parents are refusing blood in a life/death situation, the courts get involved. It's our jobs as medical professionals to consult the social workers, etc. We do not make decisions "Private Practice" style.
In the case of adults...that's their call. I recall one episode of Trauma: Life in the ER. Lady had a bleed of some sort. The family is JW. Husband and Son decline transfusion and she dies.

[grahamcracker977]

It's a hot topic because the population as a whole is more educated (use the term loosely) about these issues. Everyone hits the internet prior to surgery...trust me. We get some interesting questions, that's for sure.

[Massgrunt]

Article in the Sunday Times (UK, not New York) saying the doctor behind a major study linking vaccines to autism cooked the books:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683671.ece

and another article in the NYT from 2004 with 10 of the 13 scientists involved in the study retracting their conclusions:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F05E4DE133FF937A35750C0A9629C8B 63

[Spinner]

If you plan on using any kind of daycare or sending your kid to school, you will want to get them.

John Wayne is a great warrior name, wife nixed it for me though. So I went with Ryder for mounted warrior.

It is, but being from Chicago, I think this asshole ruined it for everybody who wanted to use it in the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy

I always thought Joshua Chamberlain was a good first and middle name. A teacher who answered the call, did his duty, and then went back to his former profession.

He was a very intelligent man, well versed in 9 languages.

As for vaccinations, I believe most states require them before your child is allowed to enter school. I know the debate going on about vaccines being related to autism, but I still think the jury is out on that one.

[MPCOA]

It is, but being from Chicago, I think this asshole ruined it for everybody who wanted to use it in the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy

I always thought Joshua Chamberlain was a good first and middle name. A teacher who answered the call, did his duty, and then went back to his former profession.

He was a very intelligent man, well versed in 9 languages.

As for vaccinations, I believe most states require them before your child is allowed to enter school. I know the debate going on about vaccines being related to autism, but I still think the jury is out on that one.

If I ever get to have another son, I may steal that one, good damn name.

I will make sure to give you credit in a thread if I get that lucky too.

[BrooklynBen]

gts375 - My compliments on your parenting and concerns. This is a huge issue, one that I personally don't think can be answered with simple, quick answers.

When my children were babies, I found the best pediatrician I could find and discussed this issue. There were many variables involving the estimated exposures my kids might face in their environments(urban, rural, pre-school, public gatherings). I then searched the statistics on the current risks (this was 20+ years ago) for each disease a vaccination might address and then looked up the risk statistics for each of those vaccinations. What I came up with at the time was a couple of vaccinations had higher risks of contraindications and death than the infection rates for the diseases they were taken for. We decided to give the simpler 'safer' vaccinations as usual and delayed the higher risk ones such as the MMR until the kids were a little older and their body mass and systems were more developed. It's a crap shoot whether you give them or don't, but a fully informed decision process is naturally helpful.

Be aware that most MD's don't really have a clue regarding many of these issues. They simply aren't trained in them. If you do some research, you should easily find a number of respected Dr's who have specialized in public health and vaccinations who now are adamant opponents of the treatments while others are still proponents. In the end, the practical reality is that Public Schools and many government papers all require documentation of full shot cards. So it will be very hard to do many things unless your children's shot cards are complete.

Good luck Buddy.

[C-M-R]

It was like the fire in his eyes went out. That's the only way I can explain it, but I'll never forget it.

Yes Yes Yes! I have pictures of him at various ages. There's something different about his eyes.

Zac had these shiny eyes that seemed to take in the whole world. All of a sudden they were dull and that's the best I know how to descibe it. It was like a light went out.

We had the best care in the world and early intervention to boot. He's better and goes to normal classes with kids his age but that look is still there sometimes.

[AJG]

Two items in the past couple of days you should probably look at, both pretty brief reads:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123445313976177691.html#articleTabs%3Darticle

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683671.ece

[shr7]

Coming from the perspective of a licensed immunization provider:

I'm going to come out and just say it. Not only is there NO evidence that any vaccine causes autism, but there is a plethora of evidence that there is no causative link. None of the arguments make any sense from an epidemiological or a biological point of view. I would love to go into depth, so please, if anyone has any questions I would love to answer to the best of my abilities.

There seem to be three main, ever shifting hypotheses about why vaccines may cause autism. As each gets disproven, a new hypothesis emerges, sometimes in combination with the others. The three are:

1) MMR causes autism (study by Wakefield et al.)
2) Thimersol, a mercury containing compound, is toxic to the CNS
3) The simultaneous administration of multiple vaccines weakens the immune system and makes the patient more susceptible to infection.

All three have been well studied and none has been found to have any merit. Even from a biological point of view. Believe me, this has been better studied than most of the other treatments people use on an everyday basis.

Again, there is specific epidemiological and biological evidence against all three arguments above. If anybody has any questions I would happily explain my reasoning, I just don't want to do too much at one time.

SR
"Part of the vast medical-industrial complex"

[Chaplain]

Just heard on the radio yesterday that a special court set up by congress to investigate the vaccine/autism link has ruled that there is no connection. This the legal side of the issue, not the medical, but it may show where the data is "leaning".

I am also participating in a vaccine study for a possible shingles vaccine. My own daughter was concerned about vaccinating my little grandson. I told her if she would get him vaccinated for chicken pox, then he wouldn't ever need the shingles vaccine I'm donating my body to investigate! The good outweighs the risks.

[RhonB]

We recently relocated and had to find a new pediatrician for our son. He’s just past his 1st birthday and we’re looking down the road towards MMR vaccination. When I asked the nurse about combination shots, she told me he’d already had them, so it wasn’t an issue now. Obviously, she either doesn’t understand “combination” or isn’t savvy to why a parent would ask about spreading them out. Strike one. :mad:

When we asked the doctor, he told us it had been six (6) months since he’d checked, but he didn’t believe the individual shots were still available but would certainly check again. He also told us that the individual shots are sold in bunches and we’d have to purchase the bunch to get the individual shot for our son. He absolutely addressed our concerns, however, and advised we could wait to administer the combination shot(s) (after the “usual” onset age of autism); whichever we were more comfortable with doing. Saved the nurses butt. :biggrin:

I was curious, so I came home and did some research. Here’s what I found. Doesn’t seem like parents are going to have an option soon. I couldn’t find what individual shot inventory might currently look like, but it appears that what’s out there is all that’s gonna be out there.

This is from the CDC website (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/shortages/mmr-faq-12-17-08.htm). On December 15, 2008, Merck communicated with CDC that it was not currently producing or taking orders for the monovalent vaccines ATTENUVAX® (measles vaccine), MUMPSVAX® (mumps vaccine) and MERUVAX® (rubella vaccine). Merck will continue to meet the public health and medical need for vaccination against measles, mumps, and rubella by providing M-M-R II in adequate supply to meet demand in the U.S. and to help meet the demand internationally. Merck is the only manufacturer of vaccines in the United States for prevention of measles, mumps, and rubella. Merck has not yet made a decision about the future availability of these three monovalent vaccines.

Gts375 – isn’t that baby here yet? To your last question, I lobbied hard to name our son Maxwell Danger, because he could always say, “My middle name is Danger!” but my husband nixed it. He’s till Max, but the Danger went by the wayside for a family name instead. Oh, well. ;)

[BrooklynBen]

:confused:

Czech newspapers are questioning if the shocking discovery of vaccines contaminated with the deadly avian flu virus which were distributed to 18 countries by the American company Baxter were part of a conspiracy to provoke a pandemic.

The claim may hold weight because according to the conspiracy therorists, the very laboratory protocols that are routine for vaccine makers state, "mixing a live virus biological weapon with vaccine material by accident is virtually impossible."

“The company that released contaminated flu virus material from a plant in Austria confirmed Friday that the experimental product contained live H5N1 avian flu viruses,”

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html

Baxter: Product contained live bird flu virus
By Helen Branswell, THE CANADIAN PRESS
Last Updated: 27th February 2009, 3:26pm


The company that released contaminated flu virus material from a plant in Austria confirmed Friday that the experimental product contained live H5N1 avian flu viruses.

And an official of the World Health Organization’s European operation said the body is closely monitoring the investigation into the events that took place at Baxter International’s research facility in Orth-Donau, Austria.

“At this juncture we are confident in saying that public health and occupational risk is minimal at present,” medical officer Roberta Andraghetti said from Copenhagen, Denmark.

“But what remains unanswered are the circumstances surrounding the incident in the Baxter facility in Orth-Donau.”

The contaminated product, a mix of H3N2 seasonal flu viruses and unlabelled H5N1 viruses, was supplied to an Austrian research company. The Austrian firm, Avir Green Hills Biotechnology, then sent portions of it to sub-contractors in the Czech Republic, Slovenia and Germany.

The contamination incident, which is being investigated by the four European countries, came to light when the subcontractor in the Czech Republic inoculated ferrets with the product and they died. Ferrets shouldn’t die from exposure to human H3N2 flu viruses.

Public health authorities concerned about what has been described as a “serious error” on Baxter’s part have assumed the death of the ferrets meant the H5N1 virus in the product was live. But the company, Baxter International Inc., has been parsimonious about the amount of information it has released about the event.

On Friday, the company’s director of global bioscience communications confirmed what scientists have suspected.

“It was live,” Christopher Bona said in an email.

The contaminated product, which Baxter calls “experimental virus material,” was made at the Orth-Donau research facility. Baxter makes its flu vaccine — including a human H5N1 vaccine for which a licence is expected shortly — at a facility in the Czech Republic.

People familiar with biosecurity rules are dismayed by evidence that human H3N2 and avian H5N1 viruses somehow co-mingled in the Orth-Donau facility. That is a dangerous practice that should not be allowed to happen, a number of experts insisted.

Accidental release of a mixture of live H5N1 and H3N2 viruses could have resulted in dire consequences.

While H5N1 doesn’t easily infect people, H3N2 viruses do. If someone exposed to a mixture of the two had been simultaneously infected with both strains, he or she could have served as an incubator for a hybrid virus able to transmit easily to and among people.

That mixing process, called reassortment, is one of two ways pandemic viruses are created.

There is no suggestion that happened because of this accident, however.

“We have no evidence of any reassortment, that any reassortment may have occurred,” said Andraghetti.

“And we have no evidence of any increased transmissibility of the viruses that were involved in the experiment with the ferrets in the Czech Republic.”

Baxter hasn’t shed much light — at least not publicly — on how the accident happened. Earlier this week Bona called the mistake the result of a combination of “just the process itself, (and) technical and human error in this procedure.”

He said he couldn’t reveal more information because it would give away proprietary information about Baxter’s production process.

Andraghetti said Friday the four investigating governments are co-operating closely with the WHO and the European Centre for Disease Control in Stockholm, Sweden.

“We are in very close contact with Austrian authorities to understand what the circumstances of the incident in their laboratory were,” she said.

“And the reason for us wishing to know what has happened is to prevent similar events in the future and to share lessons that can be learned from this event with others to prevent similar events. ... This is very important.”

[Joe33]

:confused:

Czech newspapers are questioning if the shocking discovery of vaccines contaminated with the deadly avian flu virus which were distributed to 18 countries by the American company Baxter were part of a conspiracy to provoke a pandemic.

The claim may hold weight because according to the conspiracy therorists, the very laboratory protocols that are routine for vaccine makers state, "mixing a live virus biological weapon with vaccine material by accident is virtually impossible."

“The company that released contaminated flu virus material from a plant in Austria confirmed Friday that the experimental product contained live H5N1 avian flu viruses,”

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html

Baxter: Product contained live bird flu virus
By Helen Branswell, THE CANADIAN PRESS
Last Updated: 27th February 2009, 3:26pm


The company that released contaminated flu virus material from a plant in Austria confirmed Friday that the experimental product contained live H5N1 avian flu viruses.

And an official of the World Health Organization’s European operation said the body is closely monitoring the investigation into the events that took place at Baxter International’s research facility in Orth-Donau, Austria.

“At this juncture we are confident in saying that public health and occupational risk is minimal at present,” medical officer Roberta Andraghetti said from Copenhagen, Denmark.

“But what remains unanswered are the circumstances surrounding the incident in the Baxter facility in Orth-Donau.”

The contaminated product, a mix of H3N2 seasonal flu viruses and unlabelled H5N1 viruses, was supplied to an Austrian research company. The Austrian firm, Avir Green Hills Biotechnology, then sent portions of it to sub-contractors in the Czech Republic, Slovenia and Germany.

The contamination incident, which is being investigated by the four European countries, came to light when the subcontractor in the Czech Republic inoculated ferrets with the product and they died. Ferrets shouldn’t die from exposure to human H3N2 flu viruses.

Public health authorities concerned about what has been described as a “serious error” on Baxter’s part have assumed the death of the ferrets meant the H5N1 virus in the product was live. But the company, Baxter International Inc., has been parsimonious about the amount of information it has released about the event.

On Friday, the company’s director of global bioscience communications confirmed what scientists have suspected.

“It was live,” Christopher Bona said in an email.

The contaminated product, which Baxter calls “experimental virus material,” was made at the Orth-Donau research facility. Baxter makes its flu vaccine — including a human H5N1 vaccine for which a licence is expected shortly — at a facility in the Czech Republic.

People familiar with biosecurity rules are dismayed by evidence that human H3N2 and avian H5N1 viruses somehow co-mingled in the Orth-Donau facility. That is a dangerous practice that should not be allowed to happen, a number of experts insisted.

Accidental release of a mixture of live H5N1 and H3N2 viruses could have resulted in dire consequences.

While H5N1 doesn’t easily infect people, H3N2 viruses do. If someone exposed to a mixture of the two had been simultaneously infected with both strains, he or she could have served as an incubator for a hybrid virus able to transmit easily to and among people.

That mixing process, called reassortment, is one of two ways pandemic viruses are created.

There is no suggestion that happened because of this accident, however.

“We have no evidence of any reassortment, that any reassortment may have occurred,” said Andraghetti.

“And we have no evidence of any increased transmissibility of the viruses that were involved in the experiment with the ferrets in the Czech Republic.”

Baxter hasn’t shed much light — at least not publicly — on how the accident happened. Earlier this week Bona called the mistake the result of a combination of “just the process itself, (and) technical and human error in this procedure.”

He said he couldn’t reveal more information because it would give away proprietary information about Baxter’s production process.

Andraghetti said Friday the four investigating governments are co-operating closely with the WHO and the European Centre for Disease Control in Stockholm, Sweden.

“We are in very close contact with Austrian authorities to understand what the circumstances of the incident in their laboratory were,” she said.

“And the reason for us wishing to know what has happened is to prevent similar events in the future and to share lessons that can be learned from this event with others to prevent similar events. ... This is very important.”

For what purpose exactly? So is the conspiracy theory that certain individuals who work for Baxter did so because of a terrorist agenda? Or does Baxter simultaneously hold the antidote, thereby making the motive financial?

[SOTB]

For what purpose exactly? Or does Baxter simultaneously hold the antidote, thereby making the motive financial?I think this is probably the conspiracy theorists' thinking right now, with consideration to a licensed Baxter H5N1 vaccine purportedly coming online soon (in the article posted)....

[BrooklynBen]

I think this is probably the conspiracy theorists' thinking right now, with consideration to a licensed Baxter H5N1 vaccine purportedly coming online soon (in the article posted)....X2
I have no idea what the real truth is here. Some say Baxter was caught some years past doing some really horrible things like knowingly shipping tainted vaccines from the US for sale overseas and therefore could easily be ruthless enough to now be looking to reap the rewards of a bird flu outbreak they get started. The seriously loose conspiracy wing-nuts .... well, have much wilder theories.

Regardless, I think this points to the larger issue of just how potentially dangerous vaccines can be. I've given up counting the number of times people have found dangerous stuff floating around in batches of vaccine that were questionably safe to begin with.

[Linear]

Coming from the perspective of a licensed immunization provider:

I'm going to come out and just say it. Not only is there NO evidence that any vaccine causes autism, but there is a plethora of evidence that there is no causative link. None of the arguments make any sense from an epidemiological or a biological point of view. I would love to go into depth, so please, if anyone has any questions I would love to answer to the best of my abilities."


Agree.

Look at things from the other side, from the risk that vaccines protect your children against. Tetanus germs live in the dirt. Worldwide, an estimated 198,000 kids died from tetanus in 2002. Kids die from whooping cough (mostly the babies under 2 months because the vaccine doesn't protect against it) and whooping cough is endemic in the US population because the vaccine's protection wears off in teenage years and adults get it all the time.

Polio, diphtheria, measles, chicken pox are endemic in parts of the world. They kill kids. Will your child travel as an adult? He's probably not going to be exposed to polio in the US. Outside the US? All bets are off.

HiB still kills. It almost killed an unvaccinated kid of my acquaintance 2 years ago. Baby spent weeks in the hospital. They are now vaccinating their five kids.

Before the vaccine it was the leading cause of bacterial meningitis among kids under 5. Article here (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5518a4.htm).

Some of the newer vaccines against diseases may be judgment calls--Gardasil against HPV, pneumococcus if not in group daycare and so on. But on tetanus and infectious diseases still endemic, the risk/reward tilts towards the vaccine for children in normal health. As for the timing, discuss that with your doc.

[bohica10]

Found this article in the Chicago Tribune today:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-090428autism-genes-journal-nature,0,3886580.story

Autism research: Scientists find genetic variations linked to autism

By Trine Tsouderos | Tribune staff reporter
12:00 PM CDT, April 28, 2009

Researchers have found genetic variations that are significantly more common in people with autism, a discovery that may improve diagnosis and offers the promise of developing treatments for the frustratingly mysterious disorder.

Their findings, published in the journal Nature, compared the genomes of thousands of autistic people to those of thousands of people without the disorder--a massive task that new technology has only recently made possible. The genome is the complex system of DNA coding that builds and runs the human body.

The review showed that most autistic people have a genetic variation in a portion of their DNA that affects the way brain cells connect with one another. Scientists also reported a link between autism and small "mistakes" in another DNA segment involved with cell communication.

Both reports add weight to the idea that autism is related to problems with the way brain cells connect.

"It is very exciting," said study leader, Hakon Hakonarson, director of the Center for Applied Genomics at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. "It opens up the opportunity someday for new interventions to fix the bad consequences this variant has on brain function and development."

A disorder marked by impaired language and ability to interact, autism affects 1 in 150 children in the U.S., according to the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Up to now, the medical community could say very little about what causes autism or how to treat it. The lack of scientific knowledge about autism has led to a proliferation of pseudoscientific explanations for the disorder, as well as unproven treatments that are often costly and sometimes unsafe.

This is not the first time geneticists have found a link between autism and DNA. For years, they have known changes on a particular gene can cause autistic symptoms, resulting in Fragile X Syndrome. Scientists have also discovered extremely rare instances where a tiny bit of DNA was missing or there were too many copies of another bit. Those differences help understand how changes in those regions of the genome can lead to autistic symptoms, but they accounted for only a tiny fraction of autism cases.

By contrast, the new research is "a big step," said Tom Lehner, chief of the Genomics Research Branch at the National Institute of Mental Health. "It opens up biology. With biology, you can find drug targets. Understanding the molecular networks, this is the big importance of these findings."

One of the studies released Tuesday found that 65 percent of autistic participants shared a genetic variation between cadherin 10 and cadherin 9, a region of the genome that controls cell-adhesion molecules in the brain. The figure for study participants without autism was 60 percent, a statistically significant difference.

"If we could remove this variant from the population, just take it away ... as much as 15 percent of autism would disappear, which is highly significant," Hakonarson said.

The second study suggested a link between autism and an excess of genetic material associated with ubiquitin, a protein involved with cell-adhesion molecules and connections between brain cells.

News of the findings has excited other autism researchers. Laura Herzing, who researches autism and genetics at Children's Memorial Research Center at Northwestern University, said the ubiquitin findings dovetailed with her own research.

"It will directly affect what I am doing," she said. "Identification of pathways in this way lets us know that we should also be looking closely at other genes and proteins in those pathways as well."

Researchers warned against using the findings to, say, check your child's genome for signs of autism. The variations show increased risk but are not conclusive markers of the disorder.

The reports also do not explain the rising numbers of diagnosed cases of autism. That increase may be occurring because of heightened awareness of the disorder, because the definition of autism has expanded or because of some environmental factor. It may be some combination these factors or something else entirely.

Still, autism activists are celebrating some good news for a disorder that has frustrated so many for so long.

"Speaking as a parent, studies like this are a huge source of hope," said Alison Singer, president of the non-profit Autism Science Foundation and mother of a child with autism. "They can lead to the development of safe, effective and novel treatments that enhance quality of life for children and adults with autism spectrum disorders."

ttsouderos@tribune.com


I also have an autistic child - a six year old girl. While I noticed at eighteen months she was expressing autistic characteristics, she was not officially diagnosed until age three. In the meantime, she carried the pervasive developmental disorder mentioned in an earlier post.

I think its a combination of genetic and environmental causes. I've noticed in my daughter's mannerisms certain characteristics I remember expressing as a child.