Advice for a FNG.

[sly_ca_tx]

Hello all:

First, thank you for approving my access to this forum. I take as a privilege to be allowed to interact with you fine ladies and gentlemen.

My inquiry: I am 92Y, about to re-class into 38B at RC CA unit. I am an E4, and I just put in my promotion packet for E5, with massive help from my 1SG. I have been in the Army for a grand total of 2 years. Most of the soldiers and officers in my unit have multiple deployments under their belts, many come from a AD Special Operations background, and 99% are extremely professional and career soldiers. If, and when, I get promoted, I will be a leader to soldiers who have much more experience than I. How to go about ensuring that I do not F this up? I am working very hard to gain these soldiers' respect, but I suspect that before I have time in a hotspot, I will not be able to effectively lead anybody there.

Any insights? I know this is somewhat open-ended question (MODs, please feel free to delete if inappropriate), but I figured I could get some thought-out and insightful advice from this community.

Thank you very much for your time,
Sly

[billdawg]

Hello all:

First, thank you for approving my access to this forum. I take as a privilege to be allowed to interact with you fine ladies and gentlemen.

My inquiry: I am 92Y, about to re-class into 38B at RC CA unit. I am an E4, and I just put in my promotion packet for E5, with massive help from my 1SG. I have been in the Army for a grand total of 2 years. Most of the soldiers and officers in my unit have multiple deployments under their belts, many come from a AD Special Operations background, and 99% are extremely professional and career soldiers. If, and when, I get promoted, I will be a leader to soldiers who have much more experience than I. How to go about ensuring that I do not F this up? I am working very hard to gain these soldiers' respect, but I suspect that before I have time in a hotspot, I will not be able to effectively lead anybody there.

Any insights? I know this is somewhat open-ended question (MODs, please feel free to delete if inappropriate), but I figured I could get some thought-out and insightful advice from this community.

Thank you very much for your time,
Sly


Don't bullshit them. And don't be afraid to know what yu don't know. A leader is also a good follower. What I mean by that is if you don't know something, go to your 1SGT and ask. When you make a decision, if it's the right one, stick to it, don't second guess yourself. You will make mistakes, we all do, learn from them and move on.
And never apologize for being a leader

[steelbreeze]

About all that I can suggest is that you don't act as though you are the voice of wisdom regarding things that you haven't experienced yet. I was in more or less the opposite situation-I just got off of a stint with OWT at Ft. Hood where all of the E-5s and below had deployed, and only one E-6 or higher had. It could be difficult at times to listen to a few of them lecture on the realities of life in Iraq and in combat. If you concentrate on doing your job well and draw from the experience of those below you who have been in country you should do fine. A combat patch by itself doesn't necessarily mean much- nor do the CAB, CIB, or CMB by themselves. Doubtless there are many here who can contribute more to this discussion than I can. Bottom line though, if you do your job well it will be less of an issue- if an issue at all.

[sly_ca_tx]

Thank you for your advice guys, I appreciate you taking the time to read through my post.


And never apologize for being a leader

What exactly do you mean by that, billdawg? Are you referring to taking charge when nobody else does, or what you said earlier about standing by your decisions?


Thanks,
Sly

[KidA]

I have been in the Army for a grand total of 2 years. Most of the soldiers and officers in my unit have multiple deployments under their belts, many come from a AD Special Operations background, and 99% are extremely professional and career soldiers. If, and when, I get promoted, I will be a leader to soldiers who have much more experience than I.

I am extremely confused by this section. If the soldiers in your unit have multiple deployments and come from an Active Duty SpecOps background, how will you, as a newly promoted E-5 (once that happens) outrank them?

[billdawg]

Thank you for your advice guys, I appreciate you taking the time to read through my post.



What exactly do you mean by that, billdawg? Are you referring to taking charge when nobody else does, or what you said earlier about standing by your decisions?


Thanks,
Sly

Both and also, how many times have you seen people afraid to step up to the plate, because of _________?

[billdawg]

I am extremely confused by this section. If the soldiers in your unit have multiple deployments and come from an Active Duty SpecOps background, how will you, as a newly promoted E-5 (once that happens) outrank them?

I wonderd about that too Kid, but not knowing much about you Hooahs,:biggrin: I wasn't going to comment

[james13f]

My inquiry: I am 92Y, about to re-class into 38B at RC CA unit. I am an E4, and I just put in my promotion packet for E5, with massive help from my 1SG.

If you haven't reclassed then your packet is in for 92Y, not 38B. You are not eligible for promotion to SGT as a 38B (even if you are already in the E5 slot) as you are not DMOSQ'd.


I have been in the Army for a grand total of 2 years.

I assume you were advanced to SPC at the 18 month mark, or you came into the military as a SPC because of a degree? Does the RC not have restrictions on TIS for promotion to SGT? I know that the ARNG does not have TIS restrictions, just a TIG requirement of 6 months.


Most of the soldiers and officers in my unit have multiple deployments under their belts, many come from a AD Special Operations background, and 99% are extremely professional and career soldiers. If, and when, I get promoted, I will be a leader to soldiers who have much more experience than I.

With only 2 years in, why are you under the impression that you will be in charge of anyone that has more experience than you? Is there a reason you think you will be promoted faster? I'm sure there are plenty of E5 slots for 38B, it isn't like you are in a rare specialty that the unit just happens to have a slot for... I'm not understanding why you think you are going to be promoted ahead of your peers who I would assume have a LOT more promotion points than you. Even if you have a degree that is not that many points, and the board isn't going to award you max points with such little experience.


How to go about ensuring that I do not F this up? I am working very hard to gain these soldiers' respect, but I suspect that before I have time in a hotspot, I will not be able to effectively lead anybody there.

You are going to fuck up and make mistakes, everybody does. I didn't feel ready for SGT or SSG but it is about living the NCO creed, emulating the good leaders you've had, and making sure you don't act like the bad leaders you've had.

I'm still rather confused about your position, etc. I really don't think that you'll be directly in charge of Soldiers with many deployments under their belts. At the same time, the CAB and FWSSI (combat patch) do not make the leader. You'll find with experience that many with the tower of power, or the combat patch and multiple deployments are POSs, and many with a blank 201 file are great leaders who live the creed.

[Whitebean54]

He could have time in college witch gives you some rank or promotion points,IIRC.

edit:Beat to the punch

[Carl Spackler]

Forget rank and let them teach you...

[Papa Smurf]

Best advise - tread lightly until you have firm ground to stand on...

[sly_ca_tx]

Hello all,
I am glad that more people responded and got involved in this thread. I see that I might have created some confusion with my post, and I apologize for not being clear enough about what I said.

I will try to clarify myself:

I am extremely confused by this section. If the soldiers in your unit have multiple deployments and come from an Active Duty SpecOps background, how will you, as a newly promoted E-5 (once that happens) outrank them?

Who I meant by that was the junior enlisted in the team I am in, who have more experience than I, but for whatever reason have not put in a promotion packet.


If you haven't reclassed then your packet is in for 92Y, not 38B. You are not eligible for promotion to SGT as a 38B (even if you are already in the E5 slot) as you are not DMOSQ'd.

James13f, that is true. My packet was submitted as a 92Y, because I am a 92Y. Regarding your comment that I am not eligible for promotion to SGT as a 38B, my question is how would that work out once I am MOSQ'd? (I will be attending 38B re-class school in a few weeks) If I get promoted after I become 38B, would I not be able to be in a 38B E5 slot? I am a little confused about that point.


I assume you were advanced to SPC at the 18 month mark, or you came into the military as a SPC because of a degree? Does the RC not have restrictions on TIS for promotion to SGT? I know that the ARNG does not have TIS restrictions, just a TIG requirement of 6 months.


Correct, I was promoted to SPC with a waiver for TIG (I came in as a PFC, because of college hours). As for the RC requirements for TIS and TIG, I cannot recall them of the top of my head, but as far as I know, I fall within the waiverable timeframe for both. My 1SG did not mention anything regarding that, but he might have missed that point.


With only 2 years in, why are you under the impression that you will be in charge of anyone that has more experience than you? Is there a reason you think you will be promoted faster? I'm sure there are plenty of E5 slots for 38B, it isn't like you are in a rare specialty that the unit just happens to have a slot for... I'm not understanding why you think you are going to be promoted ahead of your peers who I would assume have a LOT more promotion points than you. Even if you have a degree that is not that many points, and the board isn't going to award you max points with such little experience.


I think I might have come across as a bit of an arrogant prick; please be assured it was not my intention. No, I have no reason (whatsoever) to believe I will be promoted faster than any of my peers. I do not know specifically how many E5 slots for 38B are available in my unit, or my brigade for that matter. I do not have a degree, and I do not think the board will award me max points, for whatever reasons (my lack of experience, etc.). Again, I was only referring to the junior enlisted soldiers that I would outrank, WERE I to be promoted. Not when, if. I know there is a distinct possibility that I will not be promoted.


You are going to fuck up and make mistakes, everybody does. I didn't feel ready for SGT or SSG but it is about living the NCO creed, emulating the good leaders you've had, and making sure you don't act like the bad leaders you've had.


Roger that.




I'm still rather confused about your position, etc. I really don't think that you'll be directly in charge of Soldiers with many deployments under their belts. At the same time, the CAB and FWSSI (combat patch) do not make the leader. You'll find with experience that many with the tower of power, or the combat patch and multiple deployments are POSs, and many with a blank 201 file are great leaders who live the creed.


Fair enough. Are you referring to my position within my unit, or my position, as regarding this post?

And yes, I have seen that (POS's) before. Prime example: just last week, the BN Supply Sgt, an E7, removed a weapon from the arms vault, without signing for it, without informing the Co Supply Sgt who was in charge of the vault about it, then took the weapon, in his POV, almost 200 miles to one of our unit's detachments. Big no-go.


Forget rank and let them teach you...

Trying my best to stay humble and receptive.


Best advise - tread lightly until you have firm ground to stand on...


That sounds like good advice for many, many situations...


Thanks for input, and I hope this clears up any misunderstandings.

Sly

[james13f]

My packet was submitted as a 92Y, because I am a 92Y. Regarding your comment that I am not eligible for promotion to SGT as a 38B, my question is how would that work out once I am MOSQ'd? (I will be attending 38B re-class school in a few weeks) If I get promoted after I become 38B, would I not be able to be in a 38B E5 slot? I am a little confused about that point.

If you were promoted now it would be into a E5 92Y slot and you wouldn't have to reclass because you would be MOSQd. If you reclass, I would assume that you would have to put in a new packet once you are MOSQ to get put on the 38B list, as you are currently on the 92Y list. You should verify this information with your CoC, as I'm only familiar with the ARNG's promotion system.


Correct, I was promoted to SPC with a waiver for TIG (I came in as a PFC, because of college hours). As for the RC requirements for TIS and TIG, I cannot recall them of the top of my head, but as far as I know, I fall within the waiverable timeframe for both. My 1SG did not mention anything regarding that, but he might have missed that point.

Google and download AR 600-8-19, the answer is in there.


I think I might have come across as a bit of an arrogant prick; please be assured it was not my intention. No, I have no reason (whatsoever) to believe I will be promoted faster than any of my peers. I do not know specifically how many E5 slots for 38B are available in my unit, or my brigade for that matter. I do not have a degree, and I do not think the board will award me max points, for whatever reasons (my lack of experience, etc.). Again, I was only referring to the junior enlisted soldiers that I would outrank, WERE I to be promoted. Not when, if. I know there is a distinct possibility that I will not be promoted.

You didn't come across arrogant, it just sounded like you were told promotion was a sure thing. Putting in a packet doesn't mean too much, then again you never know... I picked up SGT while many more were higher on the list, just by maintaining eligibility (APFT, height-weight, etc.)


Fair enough. Are you referring to my position within my unit, or my position, as regarding this post?

I mean within your unit. I don't know how CA units are set up, what rank a team chief typically is, how many on a team, etc. Knowing where you can be promoted to is a good resource in planning how to get there.

[sly_ca_tx]

James,
Thank you very much for all your comments. As of right now, I am waiting on the decision of the board. I will update this board as I find out more information.


I appreciate you, and all who posted, clear up any misconceptions.


Sly

[KidA]

Putting in a packet doesn't mean too much, then again you never know... I picked up SGT while many more were higher on the list, just by maintaining eligibility (APFT, height-weight, etc.).

Yep. I sat at E-4 (P) forever (maxed PT, Cdrs points, awards, schools, etc) because points were at an unobtainable 999 or some crazy shit.

[Parajuevos]

When I became a Sergeant, in the Police Department, I had some subordinates who had more time in than I did. (While I realize that the Police Department isn't the Army, the principals of leadership are similar and we do follow a rank structure and a chain of command.)

I moved into my new job slowly, felt out the watch, learned about the people that I was working with and didn't try to "make any changes."

I built myself a reputation of being fair, of sticking up for my people and being firm with them when needed.

I went on all hot runs with them and made tough decisions when those decisions had to be made. I didn't hide from controversy,nor did I take the easy way out of situations. I faced them head on and solved them, as best I could.

I could have made the day watch faster than I actually did, but initially didn't feel comfortable with the prospect of being in charge of guys, who had fought in the "Battle of the Bulge." I waited until the respect that I had for them was reciprocated and then I made the move. I wasn't just handed that respect. I had to earn it.

Leadership is a fine art. It entails, not only a mastery of job skills but the ability to judge human nature and to be able to get people to do things that they might not want to do because they respect your abilities and evenhandedness and don't want to let you down. Diplomacy often plays a role. Arbitrary asses don't usually fair too well with the troops. Most cops are stong willed, so that approach can backfire. People skills are very important and arbitrariness can usally be reserved for the few stubborn, malcontented gold brickers that sometimes find their way into a unit.

I always considered myself as a "team leader," as opposed to being an arbitrary boss. While it was often up to me to make the final decision, I always encouraged input, from subordinates. Respect goes both ways.

Listen to the older soldiers. Ask questions. You'll find that the old timers will be glad to help you and will respect you for not being a know it all. They be gratified that you have the confidence in them and that you value their experience.

[Rover in Iraq]

The best Team Sergeant I ever had didn't really know much about an SF ODA. He had served at the schoolhouse (actually in Key West) and in an SMU for most of his career. What he did know was how to recognize the knowledge, skills, abilities, and other capabilities in his subordinates and how to exploit those. Most guys like this that I have seen, come in stupid and try to micro-manage their way to success. They fail miserably because they try to make the situation about them rather than about the team and the mission. Trust your SMEs to do the right thing and they usually will. When they brief back a project to you, if it isn't illegal, immoral, unethical, or unsafe, consider letting them continue to run with it (sometimes even if you know a better way (people learn from that). Good Luck!

[MakoZeroSix]

Well, I can tell you what not to do. Like maybe not spending the night before the E-5 board banging a 19 year old stripper while everybody else is studying meaningless bullshit. Or the next day telling them, after being asked what is the Army regulation regarding body fat standards: "I don't know, Sergeant Major, I've never been in a unit where people were fat."

I just thought I throw that out there.

[sly_ca_tx]

Well, I can tell you what not to do. Like maybe not spending the night before the E-5 board banging a 19 year old stripper while everybody else is studying meaningless bullshit. Or the next day telling them, after being asked what is the Army regulation regarding body fat standards: "I don't know, Sergeant Major, I've never been in a unit where people were fat."

I just thought I throw that out there.


That's frigging priceless...

[CV]

You need to go to your PAC office and get a lot of this hammered out. I am not sure what brought you to SOCNET to ask these questions. The #1 thing you need to do is learn to do your job and do it effectively. You need to look out for your joes and do what you can to earn their respect through hard work and keeping an eye out for them. While your at it, go ahead and submit your packet for Airborne school if you are not already qual'd. If it is not already submitted by the time you read this message, start pushing...

Other than that, go speak with your senior NCOs and seek guidance. Don't troll the Internet for a high-speed site for information you can garnish respect for otherwise (i.e. asking your SNCOs for in person). They tend to like proactive buck-sergeants instead of the ones that fumble around trying to figure shit out without asking questions.

[Bravo Five Romeo]

Well, I can tell you what not to do. Like maybe not spending the night before the E-5 board banging a 19 year old stripper while everybody else is studying meaningless bullshit.Back in the 80's one of my buddy's was an E4-P, prepping for the board.
I was coaching him and he was a nervous wreck... remeasuring the placement of ribbons and badges on his class A's countless times just to be sure, memorizing every AR and FM, etceteras.
He was good to go, but just too anxious and restless.
I suggested he just relax for a little, maybe watch some TV to take his mind off things and get some sleep.

So like a scene out of a bad movie... he turns on the TV to relax and the first image that comes up is an emergency news report about a devastating earthquake in California that hit hardest in his hometown.
So much for relaxing.
:rolleyes:

He was up all night at the CQ trying to get through to his home but the lines were down.

BTW, He aced the board on no sleep and all was well back home.
No surprise the news reports were exaggerated.

[307th_ACE]

I built myself a reputation of being fair, of sticking up for my people and being firm with them when needed.


Bingo!

Give 'em the tools and skills they need to do their job and let them do it (don't micromanage).

Give them enough rope to hang themselves, but never let the hanging happen (don't smoke a trooper for making an honest mistake, help them learn from it).

Fight for your guys like a lion, and they will fight for you in the same way. Your troops are your most valuable resource.

Be the complete professional -- never bullshit your troopers or CoC. Don't let them bullshit you. You are responsible for everything that does or does not happen on your watch (my personal mantra when I was a team/squad/section leader).

Try not to 'eff-up, but if you do, hold an honest AAR, learn from your mistakes and drive-on.

My 0.02 from my time as a team, squad and section leader (too long ago now). Good luck with your promotion. IMHO you really start earning it when you are given the responsibility for the care and feeding of Soldiers (Sailors, Marines, Airmen, what you will). If you feel like you are holding a tiger by the tail, and spend a lot of time bragging about your troops to your folks/wife/whatever -- you are probably doing the right thing.

[Psi Brr]

Give 'em the tools and skills they need to do their job and let them do it (don't micromanage).

Give them enough rope to hang themselves, but never let the hanging happen (don't smoke a trooper for making an honest mistake, help them learn from it).

Fight for your guys like a lion, and they will fight for you in the same way. Your troops are your most valuable resource.

Be the complete professional -- never bullshit your troopers or CoC. Don't let them bullshit you. You are responsible for everything that does or does not happen on your watch (my personal mantra when I was a team/squad/section leader).

Try not to 'eff-up, but if you do, hold an honest AAR, learn from your mistakes and drive-on.Damn! You could write a management book with that OP. That is stellar advice. The best part is, those skills translate very well into corporations with government contracts for sure, and other corporations most likely. It provides for the respect and subsequent swagger earned through living the way you wrote above. It would be a pleasure to have the opportunity to work with someone with such discipline and respect for his men.

[307th_ACE]

Damn! You could write a management book with that OP. That is stellar advice. The best part is, those skills translate very well into corporations with government contracts for sure, and other corporations most likely. It provides for the respect and subsequent swagger earned through living the way you wrote above. It would be a pleasure to have the opportunity to work with someone with such discipline and respect for his men.

Thanks, I had some rock steady NCOs when I was coming up so I got to learn from some of the best (IMHO). I hope the troopers I that worked for me did the same and added to the list.

[sly_ca_tx]

You need to go to your PAC office and get a lot of this hammered out. I am not sure what brought you to SOCNET to ask these questions. The #1 thing you need to do is learn to do your job and do it effectively. You need to look out for your joes and do what you can to earn their respect through hard work and keeping an eye out for them. While your at it, go ahead and submit your packet for Airborne school if you are not already qual'd. If it is not already submitted by the time you read this message, start pushing...

Other than that, go speak with your senior NCOs and seek guidance. Don't troll the Internet for a high-speed site for information you can garnish respect for otherwise (i.e. asking your SNCOs for in person). They tend to like proactive buck-sergeants instead of the ones that fumble around trying to figure shit out without asking questions.

CV,
I realize now I might not have made the best decision coming here to ask that question, I understand this is a professional forum; at the time, though, it seemed like a very good place to turn to for experience and advice. I hope I didn't misuse your forum too badly, and I apologize for that.

Air Assault school is in the works for this summer, also WLC and (hopefully) Pathfinder.

Thank you, Sir, for your input, I will adjust fire as needed.

Respectfully,
Sly

[sly_ca_tx]

Bingo!

Give 'em the tools and skills they need to do their job and let them do it (don't micromanage).

Give them enough rope to hang themselves, but never let the hanging happen (don't smoke a trooper for making an honest mistake, help them learn from it).

Fight for your guys like a lion, and they will fight for you in the same way. Your troops are your most valuable resource.

Be the complete professional -- never bullshit your troopers or CoC. Don't let them bullshit you. You are responsible for everything that does or does not happen on your watch (my personal mantra when I was a team/squad/section leader).

Try not to 'eff-up, but if you do, hold an honest AAR, learn from your mistakes and drive-on.

My 0.02 from my time as a team, squad and section leader (too long ago now). Good luck with your promotion. IMHO you really start earning it when you are given the responsibility for the care and feeding of Soldiers (Sailors, Marines, Airmen, what you will). If you feel like you are holding a tiger by the tail, and spend a lot of time bragging about your troops to your folks/wife/whatever -- you are probably doing the right thing.



307th_ACE, I agree completely with you, especially #3; if only all NCO's (and O's) thought like you...


Sly

[MakoZeroSix]

Wow. You guys take the Army so seriously. I mean, it's not like anything is hard. Just do your job, and drink lots of beer and bang lots of broads. Enjoy it.

And don't forget to tell those water purification specialist pougue Sergeant Major's on the promotion boards what time it is! :biggrin:

[billdawg]

Wow. You guys take the Army so seriously. I mean, it's not like anything is hard. Just do your job, and drink lots of beer and bang lots of broads. Enjoy it.

And don't forget to tell those water purification specialist pougue Sergeant Major's on the promotion boards what time it is! :biggrin:

Don't forget to say Hooah alot,:biggrin:

[RGR.Montcalm]

[QUOTE=sly_ca_tx;1100078]Air Assault school is in the works for this summer, also WLC and (hopefully) Pathfinder.QUOTE]

A) Hope is not a method.

B) I wouldn't bet on AASLT and Pathfinder in close succession- in fact- I wouldn't recommend it .

The Pathfinder Course is a ball breaker- of all the schools I went to in the military, I only REALLY studied for a few- Jumpmaster, USAF Air Ground Operations School/Joint Firepower Control Course, and Pathfinder

Average fail rate -50%+ and that is for seasoned troops.

Aim high but keep it real ...

[sly_ca_tx]

[QUOTE=sly_ca_tx;1100078]Air Assault school is in the works for this summer, also WLC and (hopefully) Pathfinder.QUOTE]

A) Hope is not a method.

B) I wouldn't bet on AASLT and Pathfinder in close succession- in fact- I wouldn't recommend it .

The Pathfinder Course is a ball breaker- of all the schools I went to in the military, I only REALLY studied for a few- Jumpmaster, USAF Air Ground Operations School/Joint Firepower Control Course, and Pathfinder

Average fail rate -50%+ and that is for seasoned troops.

Aim high but keep it real ...


Roger that.