Level III Serpa

[KSM]

Anyone used or had the chance to play with one yet? I have a level II I use for plain clothes and some off duty, and love it. If the Level III is GTG, I was considering using it as a duty holster.

[cryptodan]

I have a Blackhawk Level 3 SERPA Auto Lock Duty Holster for my USP Tactical and LOVE it. Its a very comfortable fit, its near impossible for someone else to disarm you when the pistol is holstered and its extremely durable. Another great bonus is the mounting features on the belt loop clip or the paddle. Also its easily mountable on a thigh rig that is also available from Blackhawk. They also make versions that will accept pistols with mounted lights or other bottom rail mounted accessories.

[CDRODA396]

I dont own, or have never used a Serpa, and I dont know who these guys are or how they are viewed in the "community." All I know is I read this some time ago, and it came to mind when I saw this thread so I thought I'd throw it out to add to the discussion!

From the FAQ section of the tacticalresponse.com website:

Why no Serpa holsters?
An answer from our friend Paul Gomez: Begin Quote “Over the last year, I have developed some serious concerns with the Blackhawk Serpa Active Retention holster design. Various persons have brought these concerns to the attention of Blackhawk on several occasions and Blackhawk has chosen to ignore these very real issues.

The ‘Serpa Active Retention’ design consists of a plastic L-shaped component which functions as the release button [from the outside of the holster] and as the lock [which engages inside the trigger guard]. The short leg of the L-shaped lever pivots inward [toward the pistol], while the locking tab pivots outward to release the pistol from the holster.

According to the Blackhawk website, ”The release is made using your normal drawing motion, with the trigger finger beside the holster body. … As your trigger finger naturally comes to rest on the SERPA lock’s release mechanism, simply push the mechanism as you draw the weapon and it releases the gun for a smooth, fast draw.”

While Blackhawk may intend for the end-user to apply inboard pressure with the flat of the index finger, under stress, shooters tend to push the button with the tip of their index finger. After all, this is the manner in which most people have the most repetitions pushing buttons such as keys on a keypad or phone or ringing doorbells. When the finger pushes in on the release button and the user initiates the upward motion of the draw stroke, the finger tends to stay in motion and as the trigger guard clears the holster, the finger enters the trigger guard and contacts the trigger, with possibly tragic results.

I am aware of two instances where trained personnel have shot themselves using this holster in conjunction with Glock pistols. In August of 2004, a situation occurred with a live weapon that resulted in the shooter losing a 10cm piece of her femur. The other occurred with nonlethal training ammunitions in a force-on-force event in April of 2005. The impact of the NLTA was in the same area as the actual gunshot wound previously mentioned.

Following each of these events, Blackhawk was contacted and advised of the problems observed and concerns raised. In the first instance, they claimed that they were unaware of any previous issues with the design and insisted that the design had been ‘thoroughly tested by law enforcement and military personnel’.

After the second event, they were contacted by at least two people. Again, they stated that they were unaware of any concerns and had heard nothing similar from any sources.” End Quote

[CombatWombat]

I've put a few thousand rounds through my M9 from a Serpa and haven't blown my leg off yet. Of course, there's always tomorrow.

FWIW, I like mine enough to order a few hundred for the boys.

[cryptodan]

I understand where that story is coming from but if you train using the SERPA holster it shouldn't be for most as it becomes a muscle memory doing so... Just my observation though.

CombatWombat I agree with you. I have put more rounds through my USP than I know and haven t had an issue yet and this is doing everything from standard range practical shoot drills to the Blackwater system to shoot houses...

[KellyTTE]

From the FAQ section of the tacticalresponse.com website:


*holds his nose to respond*

Ok, couple of issues here. First, that 'FAQ' is ancient news. Blackhawk has REPEATEDLY upgraded the Serpa holsters to accommodate user issues. The ND where the gal shot herself was a Austrian police officer who admitted to Andy Stanford (the instructor in the Course in question) that she had not had any training and that the discharge was 'probably her fault'.

As I understand from Chuck Buis, the holster product manager at Blackhawk, Paul was tasked with a safety and training program regarding Blackhawk SERPA holsters by both Blackhawk and an east coast LE entity and did indeed come up with a good program regarding their product. Did early SERPAs have issues, yeah, but Blackhawk has worked pretty diligently to address them.

Kelly

[KSM]

I haven't heard that specifically about the Serpa, but I guess I could see it happening. I've never had that happen with my Level II. The Level III has a hood that pops down when the thumb takes a firing grip, as well as the push button along the frame (from what I can see, it looks like a paddle switch where the thumb takes a firing grip, and the hood is spring-loaded and pops forward).

I'm curious about the Level III for duty use. I don't use my level II for duty on the advice of several people who have stated that they have seen the button get pressed inadvertently, particularly while on the ground, and the gun gets released from the holster. The Level III seems like it would crack that problem. The only downside I see is that the light-bearing versions can only be used with Blackhawk's light, as it is offset and still allows the holster to grip the front of the trigger guard. I'm curious about the hood mechanism and what folks who have tried it think about it.

[Seanmcd82]

The Serpa is my favorite holster hands down. I feel the issue mentioned above is a training issue, not an equipment issue. What you do with the trigger after the gun leaves the holster is on you, IMHO.

If the issue had to do with the release mechanism engaging the trigger in holster, then I think that would be a valid equipment issue.

This is not that. Great holster.

[CDRODA396]

*holds his nose to respond*

Ok, couple of issues here. First, that 'FAQ' is ancient news. Blackhawk has REPEATEDLY upgraded the Serpa holsters to accommodate user issues. The ND where the gal shot herself was a Austrian police officer who admitted to Andy Stanford (the instructor in the Course in question) that she had not had any training and that the discharge was 'probably her fault'.

As I understand from Chuck Buis, the holster product manager at Blackhawk, Paul was tasked with a safety and training program regarding Blackhawk SERPA holsters by both Blackhawk and an east coast LE entity and did indeed come up with a good program regarding their product. Did early SERPAs have issues, yeah, but Blackhawk has worked pretty diligently to address them.

Kelly

Not saying it was valid, just throwing it out there for discussion. Figured someone would know more and share, which is good for the overall discussion.

[BrittleHair]

...at least the SERPA forces you to have your finger alongside the trigger guard initially.

There have been dozens of accidents where police officers/civilians have AD'd while drawing/holstering from a conventional holster because they immediately mounted the trigger.

I have only heard of the one mentioned above involving a SERPA, and considering their current popularity I think it speaks well of the design, even though it isn't perfect.

I have used a SERPA for my duty weapon for a while now and love it. It is more secure and easier to draw than anything else I have tried.

[Massgrunt]

I had a Serpa and loved it. I was warned about the same thing and didn't worry about it one bit. Sounds like an excuse after an ND for me. People also say you can get debris caught under the release, that I'm not so sure about. I could see that concieveably happening. But I liked my Serpa a lot. I went and gave it to my buddy who needed a holster, then he went and shot someone with it and lost it to evidence. :biggrin:

[Blackjack78]

I had a Serpa and loved it. I was warned about the same thing and didn't worry about it one bit. Sounds like an excuse after an ND for me. People also say you can get debris caught under the release, that I'm not so sure about. I could see that concieveably happening. But I liked my Serpa a lot. I went and gave it to my buddy who needed a holster, then he went and shot someone with it and lost it to evidence. :biggrin:


Dayum bro, my Serpa can't shoot. I want a refund. ;)

[FinsUp]

I have 2 Serpa holsters. One is on a paddle for off duty, the other is one my work belt. I have had zero problems with either of mine.

[SSG Surf]

The Serpa was a T&E holster under consideration for duty use. I will say that I personally liked the holster, however there are potential issues that needed to be taken into consideration. Overall we ended up going with a Safariland. We by no means felt like we "settled" for a holster with the Safariland, however potential issues definitely ruled out the Serpa.

Here is my eval on the Serpa. Take it FWIW.....

We were aware of issues that have been complained about in regards to the Serpa. There were 3 main issues of concern.....

1 - Lug setting off trigger
2 - Finger riding holster too long and going into trigger guard setting off trigger.
3 - Debris fouling release mechanism, not allowing the weapon to be pulled from the holster.

Now during our T&E we found problem #1 to be a non-issue. We were aware of a release from Blackhawk and Glock in regards to Glocks with lasermax guide rod. This problem may have been addressed since then, but we do not use Glocks anyway.

Issue #2 is real. There are documented incident(s) where shooters under stress depress the release and ride the holster and the trigger finger goes into the trigger guard once it clears the holster and a ND occurs. This is without a doubt a training issue, but an issue that needs to be addressed none-the-less. Not something that cannot be worked around with training. However, it was not viewed as being optimal.

Issue #3 was the big issue and the eventual reason for the holster not making it past our T&E. There have been claims that small rocks or other debris getting under the exterior release mechanism not allowing it to be depressed. This basically locks the weapon in the holster and removing the weapon becomes very very difficult and often times the entire gun belt and holster needs to be removed from the shooter to clear the malfunction.

Issue #3 was huge for us, as a tactical unit we find ourselves rolling around in the mud / dirt / you name it quite often. Under our standard use or testing of the holster we did not experience any occurrences of failure to happen naturally.

Having said that we did, intentionally attempt to foul the mechanism. We were able to do so and sure enough the weapon could not be drawn from the holster. Now it might be unfair to say that we set up such a malfunction, however, we did conclude from our training and experience, that we could see the possibility for this type of problem happening in a real situation. Not some type of 1 in a million longshot, but a possibility. So much so that it really gave those of us doing the evaluation a legitimate concern for our officers who may be using the holster.

I will say that I did like the Serpa and it worked very well. However as an evaluator responsible for T&E of weapons and equipment that officers in my division may carry, in good faith, knowing the potential for total failure of the holster, we could not place it into service. Also having seen the malfunction and attempting to deal with it personally, I will not chose the Serpa for myself either.

[Sharc1]

KSM,

A friend of mine said you were looking at these. I read the entire thread, and will not duplicate efforts. I attach a photo of my rig.

6087

I like this set up. True it is NOT A LEVEL III. This holster is at best a level II. I still like it above and beyond anything else out there. It is light weight, it does not get all beat to hell and back in training, and rubbing constantly against the seat belt. (something that always happened with leather Safariland I wore for years. I always replaced it after every inservice for the leather looking like shit after a DT class in the gravel. This was actually made for concealed carry, and as such is a high ride, and stays tucked in close which I like. I also like the retention method this holster uses. If someone tries to remove the weapon, simply help them. If you pull up on the weapon with the assailant, it becomes (nearly) impossible to depress the retaining button. I like the way that the draw is intuitive, and I could see where someone could have an AD but it would in my opinion tatally be the operator's fault for not practicing with the system until it became muscle memory. Anyway, Honolulu is right though, and I never would have thought of his #3 concern. That is deffinately worth considering. There are trade offs as with anything. This is all only my opinion. Take care. Stay safe.

Sharc1

I forgot to add, this holster is actually made for a G27, but I use it for the G22. This was a carry over when I left C.I.D., and I did not want to buy a new holster. ( the Agency allows these, but will not buy them if you want them). Also, my S.W.A.T. Team uses the drop leg version of the SERPA with the hood, and light attachment and all that jaz. We like the thumb release for the hood.

[Massgrunt]

Dayum bro, my Serpa can't shoot. I want a refund. ;)

There's a product code you type in for the Assault Serpa. :biggrin:

[KellyTTE]

My biggest issue with the Serpa, and why I don't personally run any with the button (I think the older ones with only the hood are great, but that's my simple civvy opinion) is that its damn near impossible to get the weapon out with your weak hand if your dominant hand is injured.

With the Safariland 6004 or the Older BHPG hood-only version, at least you can reach around, release the hood with your weak hand and get the pistol out. Serpa button? Good luck with that.

Kelly

[Sharc1]

My biggest issue with the Serpa, and why I don't personally run any with the button (I think the older ones with only the hood are great, but that's my simple civvy opinion) is that its damn near impossible to get the weapon out with your weak hand if your dominant hand is injured.

With the Safariland 6004 or the Older BHPG hood-only version, at least you can reach around, release the hood with your weak hand and get the pistol out. Serpa button? Good luck with that.

Kelly

It is not as easy as other retention holsters, but I have no real difficulty in a weak hand draw. But my Agency trains for this a lot. It takes some getting used to, but it is very doable to weak hand draw my holster. I grab the weapon with my left hand, with my ring finger depress the button, remove the weapon, and "roll" into position as I come up to a firing position weak handed. I have gotten pretty good at it, as we have to do it for time and accuracy on our qual course. Just like anyting else, it takes practice. Not calling you out, just a different experience.

Sharc1

[KellyTTE]

It is not as easy as other retention holsters, but I have no real difficulty in a weak hand draw. But my Agency trains for this a lot. It takes some getting used to, but it is very doable to weak hand draw my holster. I grab the weapon with my left hand, with my ring finger depress the button, remove the weapon, and "roll" into position as I come up to a firing position weak handed. I have gotten pretty good at it, as we have to do it for time and accuracy on our qual course. Just like anyting else, it takes practice. Not calling you out, just a different experience.

Interesting. That was the part I could never get 'down' was the pressing the button while lifting the weapon at the same time. Good on you guys for finding a good solution to that.

[Sharc1]

Below are the steps I use to weak hand draw.

1st photo is an obviously clear weapon (I am crazy but not stupid!)

6090

2nd photo is with weak hand grasping the grip of the weapon and depressing the button with ring finger.

6091

3rd photo is lifting the weapon out of the holster, and rotating it to the proper position.

6092


4th photo is fully rotated weapon being grasped in a shooting grip weak handed.

6093

5th photo is on target weak hand

6094


I had my Sergeant time me, and on his mark I was drawn and on target in 2.1 seconds. I hope this helps out.

Sharc1

P.S. can you make out the "Semper Fi" and "R. Lee. Ermey" signitures on the top and side of the slide!

[KSM]

Thanks for the input everyone, it's appreciated! I'll mull this stuff over, lots of good info here.

[KellyTTE]

Sweet pics, that'll give me something new to practice. Thank you!

Kelly