Militia/Domestic Insurgent Groups?

[Snake]

Anyone hear about that report that came down the Wire from the FBI to the various State Police HQ's? Apparently our "disruptive" friends are loading for Bear. Seems a bunch of "militia" groups have gotten their act together and started an ordnance manufacturing system. Their building (reportedly) everything from C-4 to RPG's, rifles to MG's and grenades. Much of this is being attributed to former US military SpecOp-types who have been recruited by the
"disruptive elements". Looks like it might be a wild New-Years.....

Snake

[Dominique]

I don't know of any thing recent, but a few years ago the FBI sent out a memo warning of posible attacks on the anniversary of Waco.

My old NG unit also changed a number of procedures, and advised certain members of the unit to start varying their routines, after members of a militia group were arrested. We also tightend up our weapons handling procedures.

The group had been planning on abushing a NG convoy, or attacking its armory to obtain automatic and crew served weapons.

Some one in the unit noticed that every time they convoyed to training some one was following them.

He reprted it and the state police began monitoring the armory and its convoys. When they finally made an arrest, they found body armor, a large supply of semi-automatic rifles, detailed schedules of when certain units drilled, convoy routes, and where key unit personnel lived.

It just goes to show that you never know who's watching and that paying attention to whats happening around you could pay off.

[SECON]

Snake,

The FBI has been progressively ratcheting up the law enforcement communities awareness of a variety of possible (they have yet to say likely) threats that could coincide with millenium.

Of particular note is the fact, as you mentioned, that several of the more prominent militia/patriot groups seem to have formed a loosely knit coalition and may be supporting each other intel and logistics wise.

IMHO the more compartmentalized groups such as SFU represent a greater threat. They are using strategies that have historically been very successful; small, highly autonomous cells, little or no interaction between operational elements, "don't call us, we'll call you" recruitment. Nearly impossible to infiltrate and even harder to predict likely targets and/or tactics.

Yeah...at the very least it could make for a VERY interesting New Year.

Stay Alert, Stay Alive


[This message has been edited by SECON (edited 10-23-1999).]

[Snake]

SECON,
Nice to see you back. Maybe I've had a brain-fade, but whats SFU? Dont think I've heard of them. One thing that *really* concerns me is the possibility that some of these groups may have SF/SEAL types on their team. The thought of some of our professionals (Highly trained and motivated pro's) going to the Other Side is, well, nightmarish. Think about an ODA going bad!
There'd be no stopping em.

Snake II

[SECON]

Snake,

SFU is the Special Forces Underground, not too much open source info on this group. Publish a newsletter called the Resistor, which has been officially banned by the Department of the Army. Membership in this group specifically has also been banned, and DA has stated that Army CID is prioritizing
it's investigations into such subversive groups. This group got some mainstream media attention immediately following the shooting at Bragg and the Swastika Painting incident (though an investigation found that to be the work of a disgruntled support company soldier who apparently was not a member of a subversive group).

It is rumored (emphasis on RUMORED) that this group recruits heavily from eighty-duece, SF, etc. Highly compartmentalized,
small "leaderless"(*LOL*LOL*LOL)cells.
Obviously, hard for any law enforcement agency to make even a scientific-wild-a**-guess as to numbers, targets, tactics, etc.

Being wary of these types of domestic groups is, IMHO, very wise...doubtful that all but a select few public law enforcement and private sector security forces have more than a rudimentary understanding of the threat and/or are capable of countering this type of threat. (I'll probably get thrown out of the International Association of Super Secret Security Dudes for having said that...I wonder if they'll let me keep my dark sunglasses, matching cloak and dagger and secret decoder ring?).

Stay Alert, Stay Alive

[Dominique]

SECON if I remeber correctly the SFU was featured on an episode of 60 Minutes, and SOF magazine has run a few articles on them. In one of the SOF articles they published an interview with the publisher.

I also remember coming across the SFU web site a few months ago.

As a side note "The Resister" was carried in the USAJFKSWC library until it was banned.

Just something I thought I'd throw in.

[Snake]

SECON,
Oh! So their like a *smart* version of the "White Dragons" of 82nd infamy. Yeah, I was with the Eighty-Deuce when CID gave it the napalm enema. Got rid of a lot of the skinhead/Aryan Nation types. Who, incidentally, were *not* missed, as most of em were chickenshit soldiers.

Rule #1 of Subversive Oganizations:
DO NOT HAVE OBVIOUS, DISTINGUISHING TATTOOS!!!!!!!

What a buncha feebs!

SFU sounds a little more dangerous. Whats their Beef with Uncle Sam?

Snake
25th ID(L)

[SECON]

Snake,

I have, during the normal course of things, dealt with a few extremist/racist types. Mostly beer muscles and "bullshit".
But, hey bubba, them there bald headed, tatooed, black jacketed dudes sure 'nuff are nasty looking, 'specially when they are runnin' in a herd.

Two lessons I have learned (on both a professional and personal level) that have withstood the test of time:

1) In a group or mob, everybody's a tough guy.

2) The quiet guy sitting alone at the end of the bar REALLY is the one you have to watch out for.

Which leads us to the SFU. Generally speaking they would be categorized as strict
Constitutionalists. Consider the "New World Order" and other globalist/collectivist ideas of international cooperation to be nothing more than shemes for a world government under the UN banner. Their "political warfare journal" , The Resister,
clearly states that they are against racism and wholeheartedly support the US Constitution. However, to hear the Feds (including DIA and Army CID) tell it they are a racist,subversive organization. Where does the truth lie? As with most two sided stories, somewhere in the middle would be my best guess.

In the past they have been very "vocal" in there opposition to Joint Task Force Six and USC 10 Title 18, which sets forth the parameters for military/law enforcement cooperation and joint operations.

By the way (and this is not to say that I condone or agree with the SFU or any other anti-gov't/subversive group in any way, shape or form) I would strongly recommend that everyone read this particular act and it's various subsections (which can be found on the web). It affords the military in general, and the SecDef specifically, TREMENDOUSLY BROAD POWERS for conducting military operations in support of law enforcement activities. Far broader powers than most people would imagine. And get this... the Supreme Court has ruled that the Posse Commitatus Act and USC 10 Chapter 18 DO NOT APPLY TO THE NATIONAL GUARD.

Now where was I...oh yeah, you are absolutely right in your thinking that domestic groups with the kind of technical and tactical know-how derived from special operations experience are a threat of almost inconcievable magnitude. Imagine one rogue ODA set loose on a major urban center during the holiday season...that would be bad; very, VERY, BAD.

Stay Alert, Stay Alive

[Snake]

SECON,
Doesnt the Posse Comitatus act have a few other loopholes? I understand that, along with the Guard, the Coast Guard and Navy/Marine Corps are not governed under it.
Is the Air Force prohibited, as it post-dates the Act itself?
Also, just about anyone with military experience acts as a "stiffener" to these groups.
What most groups lack, is any semblence of true discipline and C3I structure. Professional Soldiers bring those things to the table. Hell, we have several groups in Hawaii and Colorado/Rocky Mountains, who are recruiting "Youth Groups", under the guise of Sailing/Skiing/Outward Bound clubs. Teach the kids how to live in the Mountains and ski, give em rifle training.... You've just created a pretty decent group of Guerillas!
Look at the PLO/Islamic Jihad, kids are the
model for good Soldier, they'll follow almost any order. Not to mention, most of em will kill *if the authority figure tells em its all right*. Plus, most Pro's would think
twice about capping a kid, even if he/she was hostile....

Snake II
25th ID(L)

[SECON]

Snake,

This is a looooong one!

The original Posse Comitatus Act (20 STAT. L., 145, CHAP. 263, SEC. 15) was passed in June 1878, as part of the appropriations bill for the Army for FY 1879. The law was enacted in response to the Treasury Dept's use of the military to go after bootleggers.

Some years later, Title 18 Section 1385 was passed. The language in this law includes the Air Force.

Title 10, Chap. 18, Sec. 375 Specifies that the "Army, Navy, Air Force or Marine Corps" may not directly participate in civilian law enforcement operations (meaning they can't apprehend and arrest) unless otherwise authorized by law.

As for the Coast Guard, don't forget that during "peacetime" they are an agency of the Department of Transportation and not subject to the same restrictions as the military. Something worth mentioning can be found in Title 10, Chap. 18, Sec. 379 Para (A). SecDef and SecTrans shall provide that there be assigned
on board appropriate naval surface vessels Coast Guard personnel for the purpose of conducting law enforcement operations. What is most noteworthy is that the language does not restrict there assignment to DOT (Coast Guard) vessels, or restrict them from US Navy vessels! And while the premise is that these personnel will engage in drug interdiction ops this section authorizes them to participate in a variety of law enforcement operations. And while this chapter and it's subsections' contain language that seemingly restricts any such operations to regions outside of US land areas, there are numerous exceptions that allow these operations to transition to US land areas.

As for loopholes, the largest seems to exist in Section 371, Para (A) & (B). In these paragraphs the SecDef may provide Federal, State and Local law enforcement agencies any information collected during the normal course of military training and operations that may be relevant to violations of laws in an agencies jurisdiction. Now here comes the surprise...
paragraph (B) states that the needs of civilian law enforcement officials for such information shall, to the extent practicable, be taken into account in the planning and execution of military training and operations.

As far as former military personnel providing an "insurgent" group a dramatic increase in capability based, in large part, on their knowledge and discipline, you are absolutely right. The difference that some leadership and tactical skills makes is hard to imagine for anyone who hasn't "lived the dream" of military service. Which may explain why, on both sides of the issue, there have been some significant operational errors and failures.

Though it may be overly optimistic,one always hopes that some of our elected and appointed officials (especially those in civilian intel and LE agencies)will come to the realization that the face of domestic terrorism has the potential to change dramatically, and that the time to develop effective solutions is now...not after the next Oklahoma City.

As far as a terrorist group or organization using youth to their advantage; historically this has worked well for our enemies. Morally and culturally speaking, most of us in this country hold the life of a child sacred above most everything else and the terrorist knows this. So regardless of the level, depth or intensity of training, even our most professional soldiers are likely to hesitate when faced with the decision to shoot a child. One recent example of this comes from the ODA that was compromised by a little girl in Iraq. From all accounts, including televised interviews with the team members, a concious decision was made to NOT shoot that child, although the potential consequences of that decision were clear in those sergeants' minds.

[**NOTE TO ALL WHO ARE READING THIS** Before the shouting starts please note that I did NOT (and will NOT) argue the tactical soundness of that decision. I wasn't their and unless YOU WERE you have not EARNED THE RIGHT to argue the point.]

While most professionals clearly understand that a ten-year-old with a twenty-year-old weapon can kill you just as dead as a twenty-year-old with a ten-year-old weapon, facing the threat and acting without hesitation is another thing. But, then again, mankind has always struggled with finding a way to take the "human" out of human beings (and only those that stand on the side of the righteous)

Stay Alert, Stay Alive



[This message has been edited by SECON (edited 10-27-1999).]

[Snake]

SECON,
Yeah, I heard about the ODA and their encounter in Iraq. No matter what could have happened out there, it's not really fair for the folks at Home to second guess those guys.
"Thats what HQ is for". Things can look a little different when its suddenly *your* ass in the wind. But, happily, it ended well for everyone.
As for Domestic Terror, what most people dont seem to get into their heads, is the sheer potential for carnage we have here. These groups, if they decide to act, could make the IRA look like frigging amateurs.
Anthrax, Sarin, and Phosgene, Oh my! Anyone with a B.S. in Biology can culture enough Anthrax to wipe out a good chunk of NYC. Next we have: Explosives, wheeee! Your average SF Engineer Sarge could bring down a good number of buildings in a hard nights work. Personally, *I* wasnt that shocked by the OKC bombing. That was equivalent to a bad night in Ulster. We, meaning the Government, have failed to inculcate in the Citizens, the proper amount of caution. Personally, I'd do the Israeli thing. Pass out Gas gear all around, for the Major urban centers.
On another note, the saying "No Country is ever more than three meals away from a revolution", is quite correct. Imagine what a couple dozen snipers on the Interstates would do to Commerce and Food Transport. When the chow dont arrive in LA, wooohooo, think St. Petersburg 1917.....
Unconventional Warfare experts joining up with Domestic Terror groups is a *BAD THING*.
But, the Powers that Be seem intent on taking the role of screaming "All is well" at the top of their lungs(ever seen Kevin Bacon in "Animal House"?).
Besides, what are SF Soldiers but well trained, legal terrorists?

Snake II
25th ID(L)

[SECON]

Snake,

Have to agree with at least some of your thinking. While blowing up a building in the heartland of America will get all the media attention that the cause-of-the-week can handle, it is not the most effective way to
incite a revolution. That was proven in Oklahoma...blowing up innocent civilians, especially children, did not bring the militia/patriot/seperatist movement nearer or dearer to the hearts of anyone I know!

But, on the other hand, destroy the ability of the government to provide and/or protect the "necessities" we have come to know and love; like three good meals, climate controlled housing, the ability to comunicate, cable TV, internet porn (*lol*)etc. and see how long it takes for the indigenous population to get their collective b**ls in an uproar.

As far as ChemBio goes, quite a few years ago the Army shattered a light bulb in a subway station in NYC. The bulb contained a phospherescent powder of a similar weight, texture and density of dry Anthrax. They tracked this stuff and the numbers of those "infected" in a 24 hour period were absolutely STAGGERING. As for Sarin and other chemicals, the one positive factor has been the inability of the terrorist to, as of yet, develop a safe and effective delivery system. Even with some fairly sophisticated scientists involved the attack in Japan was considerably less than a
resounding success. Several cult members died during the development from exposure.
When combined with the environmental factors that negatively impact/degrade these chemicals, the threat is somewhat less than some "experts" would like us to believe. That's not to say it doen't exist or that it
is not evolving or increasing. Just that there exists a very steep learning curve on both sides of the fence. Just hope "we" get to the top first.

The only thing I found surprising about Oklahoma City was that anyone would believe that those F**CKING MORONS had the technical know-how to build a fairly sophisticated ANFO device (enhanced mixture and environment)array the charge and then initiate the incident in such a manner as to effectively direct the blast, and then, by an INCREDIBLE stroke of luck place the device in the exact location that would insure that the maximum overpressure was achieved at or near the face of the building. Not bad for a trio of knuckleheads with little more than a couple of hours (maybe less) of formalized demo training.

Wait...I here something. Oh, it's just those at the higher levels shouting that everything is OKAY!

Just remember, it's NOT that life is too short...it's the fact that once your dead, your dead FOREVER.

[Snake]

Well, I included Sarin just to cover the Nerve Agents. Mustard and Phosgene are both extremely simply to manufacture. It just takes money. They can be delivered fairly effectively via explosive dispersal. Granted, they are less effective by an order of magnitude than the nerve agents, but......

Snake II
25th ID(L)

[Operator43]

What scares me the most in the NBC triad (Nuclear Biological Chemical,) is the casual air people who live in large population centers take to such a threat. I am surprised that at least one major attempt has not occured yet in the United States.
I have one small point I'd like to bring up. The common image of the beginning of a biological attack is often the release of a small amount of one disease or another into an area such as a subway station or airport. However, this would involve a great deal of danger to the terrorist positioning the material. Though we often see terrorists as willing to sacrifice their lives for a cause they believe in wholly, most seem to favor the "live to fight another day" mentality.
Therefore, I conjecture another release of a biological weapon. A low-powered bomb, timed or remote controlled, in a reasonably well-populated area such as a sports game or a theater. The bomb would have a large amount of disease cultures attached to it. The bomb itself would kill a dozen or so, but not be so powerful as to render the disease ineffective. The blast would scatter the disease particles into the unhurt victims, thousands of them, allowing them to return home safely. Within a few days, the disease would begin to take effect.
Although the "test tube in the subway station" theory is by no means improbable, I think that America's first experience with Biological weapons- and, eventually, we will have one- will begin through a terrorist bomb that spreads the material.

[SECON]

Op43,

Despite the relatively recent "conventional" terrorist attacks on US soil
that were (at least to some degree) successful, the US population in general tends to believe the optimistic outlook and statements of certain gov't/private sector
"experts" and officals. And while we should not take anything away from those working to interdict or defend against such attacks, we really have been, above all else, LUCKY.

The tactics you suggest are certainly possible (probable/likely???). Many of the confined space scenarios are based on the
premise that such an attack will:

(A) contaminate a large number of transient hosts in the shortest amount of time.

(B) allow the uncontrolled/undetected spread of the virus/agent for some time after the initial incident.

(C) insure the incident is initiated in a relatively stable environment with few degradation variables.

This is not to say that an explosive device
wouldn't be effective. However, in most urban areas the emergency responders are, to some degree, cognizant of the threat and would POSSIBLY detect the contamination in a relatively short period of time and take measures to arrest the spread of
contamination. OR MAYBE NOT; the distraction of dealing with the catastrophic damage and injury caused by even a small explosive device in a crowded area could be great enough that the contamination wouldn't be considered or detected for some time.
There are a HUGE NUMBER of variables in NBC warfare.

Perhaps most frightening is the fact that, even if detected early, a large amount of the initial response force may be contaminated which could greatly diminish our response capability to follow-on or multiple attacks.

Even more frightening is the plan to use National Guard troops as the first level of localized federal response. Beyond the RAID teams the level of training that most units are slated to receive is LAUGHABLE (though NOT funny at all). Then factor in the human element and the potential for the response being anywhere from woefully inadequate to downright ineffective is tremendous.

Why, you ask? Well, guard units would be expected to respond to incidents in the region, or in many cases, the very city or town in which they and their friends and loved ones live and work. The first basic human instinct(survival)is to be concerned about the safety and well being of "you and yours". Now let's say that this is a highly professional, well trained, dedicated NG unit (of which there are, without question, many)and they put aside these basic human instincts. Think of the mission profile. Other than RAID and Chemical Operations and Medical units, the primary responsibility of guard units is to provide security in and around the "hot zone" and protect critical infrastructure. In laymans' terms this means not only keeping people out of the contaminated area, but preventing people from leaving as well. It also means controlling (and often times, restricting) access to hospitals, trauma centers and triage sites. Not to mention that the NG soldier has something that everybody wants PROTECTIVE GEAR and priority for ANTIDOTES, DECON, etc. It is not hard to imagine that the area of operation combined with the mission profile creates a command and control nightmare, both up AND down the chain.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION: ASSIGN RESPONSE DUTIES IN A GIVEN LOCALE TO UNITS FROM OTHER REGIONS/STATES. PERMISSIBLE GIVEN THE FACT THAT RESPONSE TO WMD ATTACKS IS A FEDERAL MISSION.

BTW. None of the information discussed is restricted or classified. Most of it can be found online in any one of a number of reports to Congress fron the NGB and DA.

[This message has been edited by SECON (edited 10-29-1999).]

[Operator43]

I agree with your analysis of the "conventional" terrorist attacks. The United States government is reasonably prepared for such attacks, considering we have had past experience with them. However, America has had no contact with bio warfare, and since it has not happened, the government seems to have adopted the stance that it will never happen. Such a head-in-the-sand attitude will only serve to get people killed. Now, after our first experience, a viable response plan will, in all likeliness, be formulated. However, dozens, more probably hundreds, of civilians will die. I would like to see the government adopt regional terrorism response plans. Does anyone on this board have other suggestions for dealing with this kind of threat? (Not that I am ignoring your suggestion, SECON.)
Regards,
Op43

[HALO1]

Very interesting site here SNAKE / SECON, I have enjoyed from afar your serious debate.
We here in Australia are worried about the same things, as I am ex SAS I know a lot of Reserve Commando's here who we trained and I guess a few odd SAS types that would like to do your up country hillbilly teach the kids , and so on. We must be vigilant at all times , as you said we are poss only a week away from an EVENT.