Use of military to combat domestic terrorism

[Dominique]

I'd like to hear everyones opinion on the use of US SMUs and intelligence units against domestic terrorist groups, and criminal organizations.

I've got a friend who works vice/narcotics, and he told me that some of the intel units in the area biuld listing devices for them as a favor.

[alexander]

i think we should, but only after we make sure it works for us. britain did it in the eighties so its possible

[Shakes]

I can't remember the specifics but I recall reading a news article that Delta had operatives observing at Waco and that there are also operatives present at just about every other significant terrorist action since the unit was created. I don't think its a bad thing that they are there in an observatory capacity. In fact I would be very upset if they weren't. Not watching, learning, and anticipating would seem to me at least to put a counter-terror unit at a severe disadvantage.
Shakes

[jcollettusa]

I would have to disagree, I think the US using military forces to conduct missions that the FBI, and the Police are responsible for violates everything we stand for. Posse Comitatus was built into our Constitution because we wanted to get away from the Government rule that we was under. This is also the same reason it took us such a long time to even create a Police force, because we did not want the Government ruling the people. Therefore, we stayed away from these types of situations. Besides, when you start talking domestic operations there are certain rules and guidelines that must be followed, or the officer is held responsible.
Our military SpecOp units are not trained in "rules of engagement" and "shoot don't shoot" situations." They cannot just go in and hose the place down like they could in a hostile country. Deadly Force is only authorized as a last resort, and our military is not trained to be policemen.

[Cole]

How about military involvment in other countries? I know its an act of war, but I really liked the idea in "Clear and Present Danger" where Special Ops units were running around the jungle and blowing up the drug labs and cartel homes. Hey, someone has to fight crime, and the Columbians are probably too corupt to do it.

[dvpj]

Having been in a capacity close to this I feel a bit qualified to reply.

First, the military special ops people who were at Waco, were there as both advisors and observers. Now I know that sounds like a party line, but often civilian agencies ask for advice and guidance during similar situations.

Second, using the military for L/E ops is a pretty good idea in terms of both economics and applications. There are few civilian agencies that can afford the level of training that our SPEC warriors are honed to, and to let that asset sit back and observe is a misuse of resouorces. I know that legally there is a problem with that, but do you think that if offered aid from an opposing military body the 'bad-guys' would say that that would not be fair... no I dom't think so either.

The war on crime has to be fought with a complete commitment in body and soul. If we let the well dressed, soft bodied lawyers fight the battles in the courtroom, the only victories that will occur are in the courtroom. Well dressed, soft-bodied lawyers are not the ones out there at 3am watching the street corners, and keeping the cities safe. A legal ruling never stopped a bullet or a Kg of coke!

We can look at the war on crime/drugs as our "new quagmire" right here on our own soil. The enemy is an enemy we have allowed to roam free, and they enjoy the protection of a Constitution that was written 200+ years ago.
I have a respect for the Constitution that comes from 15 years of defending it, but I think we need to reapproach the way it is used to define our national boundries/ limitations.


I find it somewhat academically amusing that when a Constitutional ruling is sought; the body seeking a soft postion will use an intrepretive stance of the document, while if they are from a harsh position they will use a verbatum stance.

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Red Diver...standing by

[This message has been edited by dvpj (edited 04-25-2000).]

[pomofo]

Originally posted by jcollettusa:
I would have to disagree, I think the US using military forces to conduct missions that the FBI, and the Police are responsible for violates everything we stand for. Posse Comitatus was built into our Constitution because we wanted to get away from the Government rule that we was under.

Our military SpecOp units are not trained in "rules of engagement" and "shoot don't shoot" situations." They cannot just go in and hose the place down like they could in a hostile country.

Who controls the FBI, ATF and the US Marshals? The government. They're national police forces.

As for our Special Operations units not being trained in "shoot don't shoot situations" what do you think the killing houses are for? They're intended for units like the SEALs and Delta to practice killing terrorists without harming innocent people. They don't just barge into a plane or building and shoot anything moving. They also only kill as a last resort, at least according to everything you read in the magazines and newspapers.

[jcollettusa]

Since I have been trained in CQB, I happen to know how they are trained. There is a difference in training. A law enforcement unit is different than a Special Op's unit. Some aspects are the same, but there are many different aspects. First, 99% of the SWAT teams in America have served as police officers in their career, THEY KNOW HOW TO APPLY THE LAW, (THE CONSTITUTION), where as military personnel are not trained in the "RIGHTS OF THE SUSPECT," because they do not have to worry about citizens rights.


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Semper Fi

[Enfield]

First, the ATF team that initially went into Waco was partially-trained by Delta, and there was a Delta officer working them with. he testified at the hearings that he was not impressed with BATF's tactics, such as having no withdrawl plan, no reinforcement plan, no medevac plan, etc. Having Delta and SEAl and whoever else on site to train and advise at domestic situations is a good idea.

Why can't domestic police tactical units have the same training, do a degree, as military units? I think they already do, at least ones like the FBI HRT, and are trained very well for the mission at hand - at Waco, for example, what could Delta have done that the FBI couldn't?

To really beat crime and terrorism more guns and militarized police are not the answer in the long term, though in the short term they are very necessary!

I think the US had made the choice to equip police units to a high enough degree to combat any crime/domestic terrorism threat, and thus the military isn't needed. Here in Canada, and in places like the UK and Israel, police are ready to handle up to a certain level, and then the military are called in for the bigger situations. Just differen't ways of achieving the same goal, and both seem work.

Cheers!
Enfield

[pomofo]

Enfield,

I couldn't agree with you more. Police work just fine for busting crack houses etc. but I wouldn't use them to take down an embassy or an airplane or anything of that nature.

jcolletusa,
To quote from p. 85 of "Deadly Fighting Skills of the World" by Steve Crawford, he states that the average Delta Force soldier "will spend 15-20 hours each week on the range, firing an estimated 3000 rounds per week from his MP5 submachine gun." I don't know of any police units that do that. While I don't advocate military units being routinely used in place of police units and especially not against United States citizens, they nonetheless are more highly trained than police units and are better suited for certain situations. As for not having to worry about the rights of the suspect, military units are still responsible for following the laws of war as established by the various Geneva and Hague conventions.

[pomofo]

sorry, double post

[This message has been edited by pomofo (edited 04-25-2000).]

[jcollettusa]

ALL FBI agents go through the FBI academy which is 6 months long, and during those 6 months 90% of the time is in the class room. They are going over the laws in great detail, search and seizure, rules of evidence, the Consitution, and deadly force. You cannot bring military personnel into a situation where he has no idea what these rules and laws are, because if something goes wrong, he can be held reliable. Therefore, he could be criminally prosecuted, or face a civil suit, either way he is held responsible for his actions. Also, if they break one law while making their entry or while making an arrest than the case in tainted, which means it gets thrown out of the court system and the criminal(s) walk. I agree that some of our Special Op's community might be better trained, but that does not mean they are better trained to handle policing situations. I have no problem with them advising or directing, but participating is different. If our Domestic Special Operations Units are not up to speed in their training, than we need to train them more, not call on other people to do their job.

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Semper Fi

[dvpj]

Well, newsflash here, when performing duties in a L/E capacity, military assets are given the same guidlenes that civilian assets are given. To imply that the military operator is not capable of making the same decisions under stressful conditions is an insult.

Most SWAT/HRT officers/agents have a strong military background, most with specwar training.

During times of civil unrest our local and state governments are quick to summon help from their respective National Guards. Where do these men and women get their training?

Today our military spec. warriors are being used in a L/E role in other countries and perform very respectfully, and with few complaints from those being protected.

The law abiding citizen has nothing to fear from the use of military to combat terrorism.
We're not talking about using a SEAL team to enforce traffic laws or an FR platoon to sting a fence. We are talking about responding with an amount of force enough to subdue a threat with little or no collateral damage.

Lets stop softballing these people, and resond with an action that will make them reevaulate their intent.

Spend some time in a country that deals with real terror problems and you will see a completely different view of using force to combat force.

[Cole]

Exactly...
Wonder what an Israeli feels about the military operating in his back yard?

[Cole]

xxxxxxxx
double post, sorry

[This message has been edited by Cole (edited 04-27-2000).]

[jcollettusa]

Yeah let's do this and go ahead and start another war, a war in our own backyard. The American public WILL NOT tolerate the use of Military units running Domestic Op's. Remember the action we received after they heard Delta was acting as advisors in Waco, or how they responded to the Elian situation.

We have tried to use military in Domestic situations before, and it DID NOT work. We spent Millions of dollars training military units in WMD (weapons of mass destruction) and then they were in turn going to train the civilian sector. Well they received their training and after that they were futile; because the military has a strict chain of command, and the civilian side does not, it was a DISASTER, they could not cooperate. They did not even finsish training one major city and they were supposed to do over fifty.

Oh yeah, let's also stop training our military units in warfare and start training them in LE that will be real effective. There would be tremendous repercusions if we did this.

Background, you are right, most do have an extensive military background, but they still have to go the academy and LEARN THE LAW. Why do you think everyone has to go through the academy? As far as military operating as police in other countries, you are right, they have done an excellent job, but other countries do not share in our PERSONAL FREEDOMS. We maintain strict operational policies on what our police our allowed to do and not to do.

Prevention, do you really believe that this is going to prevent acts of terrorism? No chance, if anything there will be more acts, because more people will side with these anti-government movements. There are already thousands of people in these groups, and we do something stupid, like using our military, then more people will be incline to join their "cause." Therefore we will not prevent violent acts, we will cause more.

Yes, let's use our military to take away all of their Constitutional Rights. These people can believe and say whatever they want that is what is great about the US. "Let's stop softballing these people" how do you figure that? Once they commit a crime, we get a search warrant and make a proper arrest, we do not go half-cocked and take away their civil liberties, they are in America, you know land of the FREE.

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Semper Fi

[Mike]

Which American public? the liberals who are anti-law enforcement or the conservatives who are pro-law enforcement? The FBI, DEA, and other federal law enforcement agencies trained with the military SOF to exchange tips and advices since the military have more experiences in practical situations (and also the President signed the classified directives excepting some military units from the Posse Comitatus Act and look in Public Law 97-86, Dec. 1, 1981; 95 Stat. 1114; 10 U.S.C. (sections) 371-378). Because of the changing landscpace, some military units are getting WMD training.
In other countries, they don't have the city, county, and sherriff departments. They have the national police force like in France the Gendermarie and la police. When I lived overseas, the police have more rights than we do. Sure, some of the government are undemocratic, but they are doing well economically.

[jcollettusa]

The liberals or the conservatives, 90% of Americans do claim they are liberal or conservative, there are very few that fall in extreme right or left, but still claim it. So I assume you think we should use our Military for domestic op's. Do you really believe our law enforcement agents are doing that bad? Because the last time I checked they have been doing an outstanding job, I have never once felt threatened by these anit-government movements. Why in the world do you want our military to conduct police operations? It seem ridiculously stupid to me. The biggest thing I fear, studying political science, is the day our governmnet starts running around the US with guns.

Our Constitution is based on Hobbes, Locke and others, who believed all men are evil at heart and we need government to protect us from each other, Do you feel like your in harms way? Is our law enforcement that bad? Sovereignty rests with the people, and the people of the US do not want military people involved in domestic situations, and that is why our Constitution is so great. You cannot compare other countries to the US, because we have a diversity and freedom that is not shared anywhere else in the world.

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Semper Fi

[Mike]

Most people identifying themseleves as moderates. The military can and do teach law enforcements (mainly at the city, county and state levels) and vice versa. Oh, LE agencies are doing a good job.
Anti-government movements? you mean the militas? They are recruiting heavily in the Army now. The politicians wanted the U.S. military to patrol our borders, bu tthe military doesn't want it.
Diversity in the U.S. is a joke. We have so much racial tension due to affirmative action (reverse discrimination is on the rise) and freedom is for those who can afford it. Of/by/for
references to read are:

Baranzini, Richard D. Military Support to Law Enforcement and Posse Comitatus: is the search for nontraditional missions on a collision course with operational readiness?
Naval War College, Newport, RI. 1993.

Benson, Nolon J. The Posse Comitatus Act: is there a need for change? U.S. Army War College, Carlisle, PA., 1998.

Bryant, Leroy C. "The Posse Comitatus Act, the Military, and Drug Interdiction: Just How Far Can We Go?", The Army Lawyer. Dec. 1 1990, n. 216, p.3.-12.

Cox, Steven J. Role of SOF in Paramilitary Operations. Thesis (M.A.)--Naval Postgraduate School, 1995.

Diehl, James G. The Cop and the Soldier : an entangling alliance?: The Posse Comitatus Act and the national security strategy of
engagement and enlargement. Carlisle Barracks, Pa.: U.S. Army War College, 1997.

Farrell, William. Military Involvement in Domestic Terror Incidents. 34 Naval War Review 53-66 (July-August 1981).

Furman, H.W. Restrictions upon use of the Army imposed by the Posse Comitatus Act.
7 Military Law Review 85-129 (1960).

Haider-Markel, Donald and Sean O'Brien.
"Creating a "Well Regulated Militia:
Policy Responses to Paramilitary Groups in the American States." Political research quarterly, 50 (Sept. 1997): 551-EOA.

Kraska, Peter B. "Militarizing Mayberry and Beyond: Making Sense of American Paramilitary Policing." Justice Quarterly 14 (Dec. 1997):607-EOA.

Kraspa, Peter. "Enjoying Militarism: political/personal dilemmas in studying
U.S. police paramilitary units." Justice Quarterly 13 (1996):405-429.

Kraska, Peter B. and Victor Kappeler. "Militarizing American Police: the rise and normalization of paramilitary units." Social Problems 44 (Feb. 1997):1-18.

Meeks, C. I. Illegal Law Enforcement: aiding civil authorities in violation
of the Posse Comitatus Act. 70 Military Law Review 83-136 (1975).

Moore, R.H. Posse Comitatus Revisited: the use of the military in civil law
enforcement. 15 Journal of Criminal Justice 375-86 (1987).

Pate, James. "Black Suits, Badges & Bradleys." Soldier of fortune. 21 (Aug. 1, 1996): 56-EOA.

Rice, Paul Jackson. New Laws and Insights encircle the Posse Comitatus Act. 104 Military Law Review 109-38 (Spring 1984).


[This message has been edited by Mike (edited 04-28-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mike (edited 04-28-2000).]

[jcollettusa]

Yeah, your only a couple of years off. Members from these "militia" groups are on a huge DECLINE, and that is coming straight from an agent with the FBI's Counterterrorist unit. They are no where near as strong today as they was, and they are getting smaller, they believe its because the economy is so strong. If you have never been in the military, how do you know if they teach LE? THEY DON'T! NOT LOCAL, COUNTY OR STATE. They might teach their men the laws they think they should abide by to keep them out of trouble, but they do not get into specifics. I could care less if the military patrols our borders, but when they start marching into peoples houses it is a totally different situation.

Yes, no one is ever truly free, everyone conforms with the rules that society has laid down, but we possess a lot more freedoms than other countries.

I don't need your bibliography, because anyone can find books to support their argument. That is nothing but a couple of peoples opinion, and probably the opinion of people that will somehow benefit from it. For example, the Nolon Bensen "Posse Comitatus,"(from the Army War College) now you tell me, would the Army's budget go up even more if they were to establish a LE position? Of course, so I wonder why the Army wants an active role in this?

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Semper Fi

[jcollettusa]

Double post

[This message has been edited by jcollettusa (edited 04-29-2000).]

[Mike]

Some of those militia are active overseas. Training with their brotherhood counterparts.
If the economy is so strong, how come 16,000 military members are on food stamps? Only the upper class benefit from this great economy. Call the LA SWAT (both city and county) and ask them whom they trained with in the last 12 months.
You don't need my bibliography and you studied political science?? Umm. The law is based on precedence (past cases). Try taking a law class at your nearest law school. You will have fun with the leftist intellectuals over there. Well if there is no more Cold War, who goona be our enemy then? Th Army needs to prepare for the next roles.

[Cole]

When I meant using Special Ops soldiers to enforce our laws, I was implying that we use our heaviest firpower to fight the kingfish; druglords, mafia dons, gangleaders, and other scum that don't deserve to live. After driving down East Hastings street (the slum of Vancouver) I woould not hesitate to commit a military unit into wiping out a Cartel or a Motorcycle gang....

[RECON5]

I would like to humbly add my .02 worth.

No one from the ATF ever contacted the Team in Waco to see if they had any knowledge or intel on the site prior to the raid, when in fact they had looked at, and even discussed scenarios with a member of LAPD SWAT, during an Advanced Swat School. In converations with some of the ATF folks, I think they would tend to agree with the military consultants on some of the tactics used, and would not have turned down any assistance or advice. I did say the actual Team Members, not thier administration.

JColletUSA - I am glad to see someone defending the "Law Enforcement Teams", I sometimes agree we have our own specialties that go unrecognized, but at the same time I think we should give credit, and respect where its due.(not that you aren't)

I am not taking away from LE Teams. I know there have been plenty of LE Teams which have handled incidents classified as terrorist incidents with no assistance from Federal LE Agencies or anyone else. Having personal knowledge of the Waco incident, I dont think that Federal SRT or HRT Teams, just becuase they are Federal makes them the ultimate authority in handeling a terrorist incident or LE Operation. Are the Military Units trained better? I would like to think so. Most Federal, State, and Local Team Members have other job duties beside training for tactical missions. I said most, there may be some who get paid to train daily. Some of the Federal Teams may only come together from various locations, and units for a set amount of time annually to train. Some of the local teams even those which are full time are limited by training budgets, facilities, and other specialized assignments. Not all teams have the time, money, and resources of LAPD or Chicago HBT.
From what limited knowledge I have of the Teams like the Seals, and Delta Force these do not seem to obstacles which would hender the development of thier skills. There are those LE TEAMS which do train with the military, and correct me if I am wrong, but I thought DELTA, and the SEALS conducted missions which dictated some of the same operational guidelines as LE. I know here in Texas there is a group which are set up under the National Guard (Spec-Ops Detached) which conducts surviellance, and drug interdiction operations for local Law Enforcement.

I agree completely with sharing of knowledge, and training. The "LE" teams may not be trained to the level of our SF Military Teams, but who is going to get the call in your neighborhood when it hits the fan. I have never heard someone call 911, and them answer "this is the FBI or DELTA what is your emergency". On the other hand, I have seen times when I would have been dawm glad to see them coming, and I think this would be the case in a certified, bonnified terrorist incident as well. While there are things which prevent military units from taking action in Domestic LE Operations, there are none (to my knowledge) which keep us from training together. After all I have found alot of gangs, and militia groups pride themselves in obtaining military training. If we cant call on the Military SF Groups for active assistance, lets get them to share some training, after all we are all working tword the same goal.
Just my .02 worth, maybe a couple of times.

Remember 1* - Sorry bd had to post.

[Mac679]

on the subject of mission guidelines for DELTA and SEALs being the same as LE, dunno, but the mission focus and mannerisms of training are definitely different. DELTA is a military CT unit, it has no arrest authority and it's ultimate job is to close with and destroy the enemy--same general mission of all combat arms military units, DELTA's of course being focused for CT and Hostage Rescue environments. just something to think about

Mac

[jcollettusa]

Mike:

I am not talking about training, I know the military trains with the civilian LE sectors. When I was in we trained with several civilian LE units! I have no problem with that, as a matter of fact, I encourage the practice. I think they should train together, but that does not mean I think they should be the ones making the arrests. DO you know anything about the LAW? Do you know how many cases are thrown out of court each year, because our LE agents, who are trained in LE by the way, failed to comply with proper procedures. These men are set FREE because of improper arrests, case dismissed, and the criminals walk, free to do the exact same crime. Now how would like someone to be set free that has raped or killed your daughter, because the police failed to use proper procedures. You cannot expect someone who is going to train in this type of situation, maybe once a month, to learn it and be able to apply it.

I do agree with you on the food stamp issue. It is a sad day when any member of our Armed Forces is on food stamps, and it disgusts me. I blame this on the current administration.

As far as our enemy's, there everywhere, there might not be any superpowers that is an immediate threat to us, but in time there will be. Therefore, we cannot be assigning other missions to our troops who need to maintain their training, or maybe get a little more. China has already inadvertently threatened a "total war" with us, and their economy is the fastest growing in the world. I am not saying we are going to go to war with them; but they are a potential threat, and we need to be one step ahead. And you can ask any operator on here, in order to do that you have to TRAIN, TRAIN, and TRAIN some more.

Yes, I know what "precedence" is!
If our LE units are not up to speed then we need to train them more, not call someone else to do their job!


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Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by jcollettusa (edited 04-30-2000).]

[Enfield]

Hey guys - nice thread, we need more like it.
Can anybody think of an incident in the US that was too big or too dangerous for the police too handle? I don't think there has been. I have yet to hear of a criminal organization that is better trained, organized, and larger than the police. Police Tactical Teams are more than sufficient to criminal situations, and could probably do it slightly better than military units.
A lot of specops soldiers would make lousy cops, and a lot of cops would make lousy specops soldiers - their jobs are fundamentally different. "To close with and Destroy" doesn't mesh, no matter how far you stretch it, with "To serve and protect".
US Laws make it impossible for someone not well-versed in the law to enforce laws, too many criminals get off already on BS details. I think units of police forces like the FBI and US marshals have already proven that they're as good at what the need to be as their military counterparts. Both are very specialized areas, and while they both break down doors with MP5's the similarity ends there. But cross-training is certainly am excellent thing - both have a lot to leran from each other. Maybe the military could run courses for the SWAT officers, and the SWAT guys could bring some military types along every once in awhile (probably happens alreday). Anyway, just my views.

Cheers!
Enfield

[RECON5]

Thanks for the clarification on the Seals, and Delta issue. That is the reason I started visiting this site..if you dont know the answer, it's safe bet someone on this site does.

Remember 1*

[jcollettusa]

Yes, there has been one situation that I can think of right off the top of my head, and that was the LA riots in 1992. It was not a terrorist situation, but the Marines were sent in and the snipers were told to shoot any gangster that had a weapon and was out pass the curphew. There were a lot more rules for the use of deadly force than what I just said so don't think that Marine snipers were just going around killing people, because they wasn't. They set up check points and searched the vehicles as they pass through.

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Semper Fi

[Mike]

The Army have LE experiences in Haiti, Somalia, Bosnia and other places since the Army patrolled just like a beat cop back home and all three places were on and on. Grenada, Panama, and Persian Gulf were "go in and leave" combat operations and the Army did not stay there forever.

[jcollettusa]

There patrol was nothing like a street cop. They have Hummers with .50 cals and MK19's mounted on the turret patrolling the area. Not to mention all of their 782 gear, flack jackets, kevlar helmets, and M16's. Now I think this view would be different than that of a regular street cop.

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Semper Fi

[Fred]

Negative jc, the SF guys in Haiti did a large portion of their patrols on foot, rifles slung with soft caps and no body armor. They were the law in a large portion of Haiti, but sought to portray themselves in a favorable light not as armored stormtroopers.

[Swat1]

As a veteran of Operation UPHOLD DEMOCRACY and having been attached to several SF ODA's while in Haiti I can speak from some experience on this issue. Fred is right in that SF teams, out of sector, patrolled their areas on foot in soft caps with no body armor, sometimes using dirt bikes. They were the law for that area.

While with an SF ODA in Ouanaminthe (a small town on the border of Haiti and the Dominican Republic) we responded to a "man with a gun" call. We "arrested" three subjects and brought them back to the FAd'H barracks the ODA was using as it's CP. My team interrogated them and learned the location of a large stash of weapons and a fourth suspect. We went to the house and used a HMMWV to break down the gate and entered the residence while the suspect ran out the back over a couple of walls and out in the busy streets. My point is no judge, no search warrant affidavit, no nothing. We ran it by the ODA team Captain and he was the judge.

Another instance shows how SF soldiers were operating very similar to LE and paid the same price as many LE officers have across this country. In the Rice Bowl, called Gonaive, SSG Davis and MSG Cardot were both shot while running a checkpoint. MSG Cardot succumbed to his wounds, neither were wearing body armor. Body armor would have saved MSG Cardot's life.

So yes, the SF soldiers acted in a law enforcement capacity while in these OOTW operations like UPHOLD DEMOCRACY, however the "laws" are much more lax and really the enforcement is a keep the peace enforcement, not enforce the law enforcement. In the United States this type of law enforcement would not be tolerated. As a civilian law enforcement officer today, I personally think it best that LE handle civilian LE problems. I think it's great that military and civilian specops (SWAT and SF) train together, however the missions can be very different.

[dvpj]

I'm still not convinced that, not using military assets, is not a good idea.
I'm not talking about using a SEAL platoon to bust a street pusher.

Our national LE posture stinks.

I know it is a bit off the mark , but several years ago when the newer Tombstone movie came out an older gentlemen send to me at the rolling of the credits that we need more "law men" like them.

Our criminal population has it pretty damn good in this country. Hell we give them a million dollar defence, we feed them, school them, and even give them college degrees in prison. I heard a young repeat offender say at a town meeting about youth street crime, that he never had it so good as he did in jail. He got his GED, an AS degree, and a vocational certificate. Now he can't "make enough money" to keep the lifestyle he had in the "joint". He wants to go back and have it easy again...he even said he'd like to finish his BS degree.
So, lets coddle them during the apprehension of them.
We wouldn't want to break their coke' finger nails!
Belive me, the criminals know the law too and take full advantage of it. We are losing this war, and unless we fight it like a war, we are looking at decades of more dying and suffering...until the layers get off their expensive suits, put away their semantic dictionaries, and fight crime...period.

Just one more point then I have to go.
When a govenor feels that his state LE assets are being overwhelmed, who does he call?

National Guard...right...military or not?

[Mac679]

"Hell we give them a million dollar defence, we feed them, school them, and even give them college degrees in prison."---How is that a measure of poor performance on the part of Law Enforcement Officials in this country? Criminal Justice System and problems within society, yes, not a failure of LEO's to carry out there jobs
NG is the current incarnation of the old militia system. They answer first to the Governor of the State and are called out in declared States of Emergency, not routine LE duties. They are only federalized when called upon by the President of the United States. Either way military training is geared towards closing with and destroying the enemy as quickly as possible. LE's job is to arrest them to bring them to trial. Different methods of training and conditioning so to speak.
Just my 2 cents,
Mac

[Swat1]

In response to dvpj, SCREW YOU!!! "Our national LE posture stinks", what the hell do you know? The facts you cite don't support your statement. What has any of that got to do with Law Enforcement? Everything you cite is about the Justice System after a person is in it, not while the law is being enforced. You tell me how the average beat cop has a goddamned thing to do with a criminal's defense? You tell me how the detective in the street has a goddamned thing to do with a punkass mope getting a college education in prison? If you asked every cop on the street what the Justice System should be like 99% would agree with you! Take away the coddling, make it hard. I am in %100 full agreement with Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, AZ...lets put them in tents, feed them MRE's, take away the TV's, college educations etc. But the liberals in this country want to give them every break...He's not such a bad guy, he is just a little misdirected...BULLSHIT! As an 8 year LE officer now Detective, don't tell me that the LE posture in this country stinks...I am out there every day fighting that war you talk about...and we are kicking ass....will there be more criminals...YES. Absolutely, but don't blame that on us, blame it on the LAWYERS who've got this country's Justice System so screwed up there's no going back. But what a disservice you do to the men and women who are busting our asses everyday out there in the streets of America!

Una Stamus

[RECON5]

This may sound redundant, but due to the inflamatory remarks made I would like to add my .02 worth.

"Our national LE posture stinks"

In "Tombstone" they did not have civil rights groups, and dream team attorneys who showed up at the Earp's trial either when they were charged with murder, or you might be slamming them for being scumbags instead of hero's.
You want to blame someone for the "posture"? Try a local attorney, or civil rights group. There are certain rights every citizen should be afforded dont get me wrong. That is why everyone wants to come here. But for someone to get cable tv, and a free education for raping a child, or killing a convenience store clerk for $20.00 is ridiculous. We can even be more specific. You want to see a cop twist off, just remind him of the case he had dismissed by the District Attorney "in the intrest of justice". No procedures violated, no civil rights violated, everything was right down the line except for the fact the person he arrested happend to the son/daughter of a high muckity muck, who contributed greatly to get that D.A. elected to office. Politics, and Bureacracy play as big a part as the liberals do. (I am not labeling all D.A's either just spreading some of the responsibility)
Now, with that being said, you might want serve as a officer out on the street before you go blaming the ones who protect your neighborhood of causing the bad posture. There are the few who make it bad for the everyone else, but the other factor that may have influenced your decision is the Media, who will report on the inappropriate behavior, or misconduct of an officer for months at a time, and only give 5 seconds to the sex offender who just got paroled to your community. I may not have the military experience to paticipate in some of the debates on this site, but I do have 11 years law enforcement experience, and counting. I can tell you, we are out numbered, and playing against the home team, with stacked deck, or so it would seem at times.

Remember 1*

[jcollettusa]

I agree with SWAT1, once the criminals are in prison that has nothing to do with the LE officer. The LE officer at this point has collected enough evidence to put the perpetrator in jail. After that it is all up to our courts and prison systems. If you (dvpj) have a problem with that do not direct at the police on the streets, because they have absolutely nothing to do with it, they did their job, and did it right. I do agree with you that criminals do have it to easy in prison, but it is like he said, its the damn liberals who believe in rehabilitation.

------------------
Semper Fi

[dvpj]

WOW, I guess I pushed a button.
1. I'm standing on the side of Law Enforcement on this one. I'm standing on the side of combating crime, not the combating the crime fighter. Give the crime fighter all the tools and assistance needed to do an effective job, with saftey and confidence.
2. I'm not some rookie here, I come to this forum with 18+ years of military experience (with some psuedo-LE added by our federal gov't). It is with that in mind that I have left the fold of being the protector and defender.
Many of my best friends and shipmates are bravely serving in the ranks of LE officers and agents at all levels of the profession, and it is with their observations that I draw the conclusion that our nation's LE has become reactionary. The job is hard enough on its own with out bending to the political discretions of unions, and elected or appointed officials.
I guess though that in our modern, future thinking, and "rights protective" culture that must be the case.

I grew up in the cold war and spent several years in West Germany. While I lived there I witnessed some practices that by our standards would not be tolerated, but given the posture that was in place and the current events they were needed.

Our country must come to grips with the issue of terrorism and treat it like the combat that it is.

THAT IS WHAT THIS WHOLE THING STARTED OUT TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[This message has been edited by dvpj (edited 05-03-2000).]

[dvpj]

For the Law Men and Women out there I must appologize if I disparaged you or your position. Swat1 is right my discust is not intended to be focused on you,rather the velet robed and Armaini suited policy makers.
I spent many years as a tool of policy and fully understand what it means to be second guessed and immasulated in the eyes of the public you are risking your lives for. I can recall many nights that I lay awake and thought that I may not get home after this or the next one, or that I have five or six more months of this pandimonium to survive to see my family. Then, I had a better than average chance of being short cycled only to bounce over to another deploying platform!

Maybe I'm bitter, but my prosthetic leg, and buracratic whirlwind of a VA have left me feeling like this place is missing a few bricks in the foundation.

I've been around the world and can honestly say that we have a good thing going on here, but we need to protect it. And protect with the vigor of a mother fox to her kits.

[jcollettusa]

dvpj:

You are right, this country does need to be protected from the threat of terror, but no matter how much we do, we can never be totally protect it from it. I also have been to several countries and seen the way some of their citizens are treated, and did not enjoy that. I just worry that if we start something with the military, how far it will we take it. I mean the most devastating events in history started as an idea. Look at WWII, if it was not for the thoughts of 1 man we might not of had a WWII. When Hegel wrote "The Philosophy of Right" he initiated a way of thinking that forever shaped the rest of our lives. Karl Marx and Fascism both derived from the work of Hegel, and then on the same lines was Nietzsche, who Hitler used to stare at Nietzsche's portrait while getting dressed. People throughout history have a tendency to take an "idea" an run with it, without thanking of the consequences it may bring; this is why I think we should let the LE agencies handle the domestic, and the military handle international. If we start making amendments to the Constitution it might have repercussions that we do not like.

------------------
Semper Fi

[dsumner]

Let me clarify a few things about the NG. The national guard can be used for certain L/E duties as long as it is operating under state control. In VA the NG has been used on cannibus eradication teams, to perform searches of ships entering ports, riot control duties, and to assist during natural diasters.

[trident86]

The Australian government has an interesting approach. Their local police force will respond to a typical incident, and assume jurisdiction. If the situation escalates, or meets certain criteria, the on-scene commander will call in a SWAT unit (still LEOs), brief the situation, and assist as necessary. When the circumstances warrant, the Australian SAS may be called in as the ultimate response, with the assistance of the local police and the SWAT unit.

The key points are these:
-the on-scene commander makes the call for a higher-echelon response.
-the units have established rules of engagement, and definitive criteria to which they may respond.
-Each unit remains in support of any others called in, and maintains lines of communication and information exchange.
-If the situation de-escalates, units are required to withdraw when the scenario no longer mandates their presence.
-Anyone taken into custody is turned over to the local authorities once the situation is resolved.

Hopefully, some Aussie will jump in and clarify this Yank's interpretation......

[jcollettusa]

I know there will be extenuating circumstances that neither the local or the FBI will be able to handle. For example, if the US was to be attacked with a bio or chemical weapon. Depending upon the agent involved, there is no way the FBI could handle the situation without the military's involvement. All I am saying is that we don't need to involve the military in every domestic terrorist situation. Yes, there will be instances that the military will have to be involved in.

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Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by jcollettusa (edited 06-10-2000).]

[SECON]

If the intent is to use WHATEVER existing resources we have to combat terrorism on US soil, then the answer is to ensure that those civilian law enforcement units tasked with direct action/emergency response (FBI HRT, NYPD ESU, LAPD SWAT, State Police Tactical Units, etc., etc.) are trained to the highest level possible.

Let the military units tasked with counter terrorism provide the necessary training; they have the most advanced tactical and technical proficiency in these types of operations by virtue of deeper pockets and a narrowly focused mission profile. What they don't have is the IN-DEPTH PRACTICAL knowledge necessary to plan and execute these operations within the constricting boundaries of the civilian legal system.

A perfect example of the military and law enforcement counter terrorism doctorines differ, and the problems that may result, can be found in the Ruby Ridge debacle. Much of the debate and serious legal wrangling has come from the on-scene commanders decision to change the long standing rules of engagement. The change authorized use-of-force against armed adults(I seem to recall at one point it was reported as being "armed adult males")as opposed to the traditional rules of engagement which restrict(or authorize, depending on your point of view) use of force against individuals that pose an immediate or imminent threat of serious bodily harm or death.

The point is this; the change made the rules of engagment resemble military counter terrorism doctorine more closely than law enforcement doctorine...and set off a sh** storm regarding the constitutionality of that change, and the subsequent use-of-force, which still rages on.

As always, there are exceptions, though few and far between. The most obvious is counter action/response to WMD incidents. As stated in an earlier post, the pipe dream of training National Guard units to lead the response to WMD incidents and to take the point in training civilian first responders will, in all liklihood, die a quick death...as should the originators of such a convoluted, misguided and wholly unachievable plan (the why's and where for's of that are the subject for another post at some other time).

The solution to WMD interdiction and response may well be found in combining existing civilian and military assets, however, in order to be successful the effort must be made to develop clear and concise operational and jurisdictional guidelines and a system put in place to reconcile the differences in operational control between civilian and military assets, BEFORE any training or operations ever take place.

Stay Alert, Stay Alive

Post Script: IMHO basing one's argument, either for or against the use of military to counter domestic "terrorism", solely on the Waco or Ruby Ridge incidents is hardly persuasive. Each of these cases was wrought with miscues, mistakes and miscalculations throughout the planning and execution process at all levels of the law enforcement chain of command. However, history is ripe with examples of military led counter and anti-terrorism operations falling prey to similar problems.


[This message has been edited by SECON (edited 06-11-2000).]

[Snake]

Who leads the response to an insurgency? As in, a paramilitary force of respectable size, with specific goals with regards to territory and military goals. Remember our discussion of militia's? Obviously, LEO's are outgunned, and the National Guard may have sympathizer's or be otherwise compromised...
The Tri-State are in the NorthWest is -rife- with groups, who have relations with one another, just itching to crack open the 2nd Civil War, with the gear and knowledge to pull it off, too.

Snake
25th ID(L)

[SECON]

Snake,

Always the one with the interesting questions, aren't ya'? *LOL*LOL*LOL*. IMHO, if an insurgency or insurrection where to occur the lead agency should be the FBI. They have the existing infrastructure and relationships with viable resources to coordinate the sort of multi-agency response necessary to eradicate such an uprising.

Any response to these types of incidents would require a counterinsurgency operations plan that includes intelligence and counter- intelligence, pyschological operations, civil affairs, security, direct action and special reaction assets. You know...all the sort of stuff that goes into any, what is the politically correct term I'm looking for Oh yeah...Low Intensity Conflict. Other agencies involved could include US Marshal's Service, ATF, FEMA, DIA, CIA (strictly to investigate possible/likely connections to or influences from foreign entities, in accordance with federal law and the agency's charter)and a host of other well and lesser known "alphabet agencies".

It would seem likely that, due to the risk of compromise and/or sympathy for the insurgents, some state and many local law enforcement agencies would play an extremely limited role. At least initially or until the prevailing loyalties could be discerned.

The use of National Guard troops could be a viable option. If an emergency was declared, units from outside a given state or region could be federalized and ordered into the troubled area. Given the varied state of readiness from one unit to the next and, in many cases (though not all), the limited training in the tactics, techniques and procedures necessary for succesful execution of counterinsurgency missions most NG units almost certainly be relegated to a security role. Which is, in any counterinsurgency operation, a vital role. One would have to wonder just how aggressively these units would be allowed to conduct their mission (i.e. would they have rounds, or even magazines, for their weapons? Would they be afforded limited arrest powers? What would the rules of engagement be?).

In keeping with my earlier post, the key to success in this type of operation would be to develop clearly defined policies establishing areas of responsibility, jurisdictional rights and, of course, a workable chain of command that effectively integrates LE/military/civilian assets. Once all that is in place an emphasis on training agencies, units and personnel in their respective individual and collective tasks and responsibilities should be undertaken. Followed by training exercise, both computer based and practical.

So, in other words...if a domestic group or groups were to stage an uprising in the forseeable future the response would, in all likelihood, amount to one of the biggest goat screws in recent memory. Remember the
LA Riots and how long it took for an effective response to be developed, coordinated and enacted. And those rioters were hardly trained cadre with a defined plan of action!




[This message has been edited by SECON (edited 06-11-2000).]

[dsumner]

I've got to agree with SECON on this one. In 1989 we had a riot in VA Beach. The local government new of the possiblity, but declined outside help until things were completely out of control.

It took two days before they got their act together. The local police, sheriff's office, state police, and NG spent most of their time arguing over who would be responsible for what, and trying to play CYA so they would not get sued.

the first two nights no NG troops were allowed to carry ammo or have a magazine in a weapon. when they did issue out ammo only officers and 16 designated marksmen were authorized to carry ammo.

We received a briefing from the JAG that stated we could not return fire if fired upon. We could only fire if ordered to do so by an officer,and then we should "shhot to would".

NG troops could "detain" a suspect befroe turning him over to the police. It was mass confusion. Everyone had seperate ROE, different chains of command, and commo channels.

By the time we actually deployed, most of the damage was already done.

[jcollettusa]

I agree with secon, but the problem is the military and the civilian sector does not work well together. We have attempted this before, we trained the military to train the 50 major cities in the US for an WMD event and it was a big clusterf$?. We wasted millions of dollars on this program that turned out to be an utter failure, and not one city got the proper training. The problem is the military is used to a "strict" chain of command and the first responders operate differently, I believe the first person on the scene becomes the on scene commander.

A JTF between the three would be the ideal situation, if we can get these three agencies to cooperate with one another (local/state, Feds, and military) that would alleviate the problem, but we haven't, whereas we should have started cooridinating for this type of event yesterday.

WHO'S IN CHARGE? Is going to be the biggest problem.

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Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by jcollettusa (edited 06-11-2000).]

[Snake]

Sumner,
There is no such thing as a "shoot to wound" order. Troops are trained to shoot center-of-mass. In other words, torso. If their wounded, fine. If not, la-de-da...

Guys,
when was the last time we faced a civil law and order enforcement mission, when the OPFOR had any sort of numbers and sophisticated tactics and training? Fighting a force composed of domestic Militia-formations means you are up against people who have a lot of the same training as you do, and a -murderous- capacity to improvise. I draw your attention to several articles regarding the "recruitment" of Regular, Guard, and Reserve servicemen. Think about Eritrea, instead of Ulster.
BTW, Judging from the rhetoric coming from these guys, the FBI agents within reach are dead ASAP. Their objective is most likely the destruction of the infrastructure required to project Federal law into the zone of contention. Look in your phonebook, it tells you -exactly- where the FBI local HQ is. One ANFO/semtex surprise, and local C3I for the alphabet boys is a memory...


Snake
25th ID(L)

[dsumner]

Snake, OK he may not of said"shoot to wound" , but he did say "try to aim for the legs or arms , if you have to shoot."

My favorite part of the ROE/deadly force briefing was the don't return fire if fired on. try to let the polcie shoot them.

If we were fired on, we were supposed to seek cover only returning fire if we had absolutely no place to run to.

[jcollettusa]

I do not know who your CO was, but I know there was not one person in my chain of command that would have ever issued an ROE policy as F&*ked up as that. Of course, I was never in the guard, but I still don't understand how they can give that order. That is saying that their lives are more important than yours, and that you cannot defend yourself when you are threatened with deadly force.

------------------
Semper Fi

[Snake]

Probably a NG Bureau ass briefing them...
The Guardsmen I am familiar with a good soldiers, it's just that they dont have the length and variety of training as Regulars do. They'll aquit themselves well in combat, but in the vague world of "suppression of civil disturbance"....they tend to treat/view it as "neutralize", rather than "suppress".
You want to detain/neutralize the provocateurs, disrupt the mob, and protect local infrastructure. The Guard prefers to ask "how many IFV's and M-1's do I need"...
Now, dealing with an insurgency is another matter all together. We've yet to have to deal with a Viet Cong style campaign in our Country. Could get interesting...


Snake
25th ID(L)

[Daredevil]

I can't believe this still comes up.

Why would Delta or SEALs even want to be involved with situations like this?

Think about this a second. Domestic law enforcement raids are often the subject of intense scrutiny. Trials and hearings are inevitably the result. If you were to call a Delta or SEAL operator to the stand in a public hearing his career is effectively RUINED. Delta and SEAL DEVGROUP guys work in secrecy for a reason.

The founder of the FBI HRT, Danny Coulson, wrote a book called "No Heros" where he talks about starting the HRT. He talks about cross training with Delta, and how the Delta commander made it clear that handcuffs are not a part of Delta's load out because, "We don't go in to take prisoners." And when the subject came up of post-action trials and hearings, many of the Delta guys who'd suggested they be used on domestic missions that way suddenly changed their minds after the look of horror left their faces.

As for the "Shoot-to-kill" vs. a "Shoot-to-wound" policy, Andy Mcnab wrote a book called "Immediate Action" detailing his career with the SAS prior to the Gulf War. He said that he'd been reading about the critisism that the SAS had been taking regarding "Shoot-to-kill" operations in Nothern Ireland. Most SAS ops in Northern Ireland have been intel gathering but he asked a teammate of his if they did get sent in to a hostile situation that way would it be a "Shoot-to-kill" policy.

His teammates reply was, "What other kind of shooting policy is there?"

[Snake]

Devil,
two seperate discussions here. One about the use of SOF at Waco (and other situations), and one about the use of regular troops in CONUS.


Snake
25th ID(L)

[Daredevil]

If that's the case then:

SOF at Waco: Fine as long as their role was for advisory or observation purposes.

Regular troops in CONUS: Bad idea. That means we're in martial law. It's a quagmire for sure for young officers who would probably have to deal with ridiculous and ambiguous rules of engagement. Plus, the political fallout if things go bad could be devestating. Does anyone else on here know what happened on Bloody Sunday over in Northern Ireland. It ain't just a song by U2. That single blunder by the British Paratroopers so angered people that it turned the IRA from a small group of a few rowdy marxists into an urban guerilla organization that has lasted for 3 decades. All we need to find ourselves in a situation like that is for some military outfit to lose it and fire on a crowd of demonstrators made up of some sort of ethnicity.

[dsumner]

The NG guard still has to get over the fear of something like Kent State happening agian. When we recieved our ROE briefing (it was by a JAG major from STARC in Richmond) their greatest fear was that we would shoot someone and have to go to court and justify the act.

As for deploying troops on US streets. It will never happen unless their is a total breakdown in system. the first thing that will happen is the y will call up the Guard ad them federal LE help and only then will they reqeust assistance from the Active military.

Then there is always the danger of having NG troops who refuse to follow their orders, feel sympathetic to the group commiting a terrorist act, or protesting. Most NG units are recruited from within the communities they would be deployed in.

The only place I can think of where the NG is routinely used to patrol the streets is Puerto Rico.

Evan in terrorist situations local/state law enforcement would be the first and primary response. Here in VA we had a situation a few years ago where a militia group was planning an attack on a local NG unit. The situation was handled by the VA State police, and there was no federal envolvement expect for some of the prosecutions.

[SECON]

Dominique,

Can we agree to disagree?*LOL*LOL*LOL. In the case of a "traditional" terrorist incident federal agencies invariably take the lead. Case(s)in point:

- World Trade Center

- Oklahoma City

In the event of a theoretical uprising, along the lines of the scenario posed by Snake, it is EXTREMELY doubtful that, when faced with a domestic terror campaign staged by anti-government, or seperatist, or whatever the "cause du jour" group may happen to be , the federal government would
relinquish even the smallest increment of jurisdiction to the state or local authorities. Especially if federal agencies, entities or properties have been, are being or MAY be targeted. Almost certainly the Executive and Legislative branches would have no choice but to place the reins in the hands of federal law enforcement.

As Snake has pointed out, this theoretical scenario differs vastly from anything faced previously at any level of civilian law enforcement and/or National Guard/Reserve Component Domestic Support Operations. Effectively responding to, containing and eradicating such a threat will require a high degree of organization, cooperation and flexability across a broad spectrum of agencies. None of which has been exhibited in the past or present.

Waiting to see what happens if and when the problem arises is NOT an answer. And while, yes, empirical data shows that there has been a decline in membership in many militia and so-called patriot movements, we should not discount the fact that those remaining are the staunchest believers of their individual and collective ideaology, as well as the fact that backlash and outcry has forced these organizations to adopt a significantly lower profile. Therefore, we may well be facing a more determined opponent, that is harder to identify and track. In other words, we just might be allowing the decreasing numbers to lull us into a false sense of security while ignoring the fact that these groups may be far more determined and capable then ever before. Remember how reliable an indicator the "body count" was in Vietnam?

But, hey, that's just my humble opinion. Great thread, this is what makes this board a great place to visit.

Stay Alert, Stay Alive

[jcollettusa]

Oh I agree, we should have already been prepared for this; just because the numbers have decreased does not mean they cannot go back up again. Experts believe the numbers only decreased because of the stability in our economy, but who is to say that our economy is going stay where it is at. Because these people are currently employed, does not mean they are going to stay that way. Once they are unemployed and have nothing to do that is when the militia numbers are going to rise again.

------------------
Semper Fi

[Snake]

A good chunk of the "quitters" probably went underground. SECON, how many members would you say that the Republican Groups (IRA, INLA, IPA) in Ireland have? Hard Core soldiers, not the sympathizers? MAybe a couple thousand, total? They've managed to give one of the most skilled military/security complexes the runaround for 30 yrs...
In a total insurrection, a 4-man RPG team on a Highay, could close off bulk transport of food/POL/Medicine/whatever to a nice chunk of the State. BTW, we now know that groups are fabricating small arms and ordnance in garage-shops. i.e. RPG's, Grenades, Sten-3's, PPsh-41k's,etc. Hell,
-I- can synthesize semtex...

Snake
25th ID(L)

[dsumner]

SECON, true that in the event of any large scale uprising against the federal government they would have to become involved, but in both case you sited there were specific violations of federal law and both targets wer either federal property ( the federal bldg), or contained property being used by federal agencies (the World Trade Center).

Many of the crimes that the perpetrators were chared with, could have been prosecuted under local and state laws. The Feds had more resourses, and a wider net to catch these guys.

I can't speak for ewveryone, but in the area I live in the local LE agencies don't seem tol e working with the federal government. they want federal tax dollors for their coffers, but don't want any strings attached.

I also don't think things will run as smoohtly as everyone expects. Anytime you have more tha one or two groups trying to work together you are asking for problems.

They start to step on each others toes, people want to play CYA, and bureaucrats want to make themselves look good.

could you imagine the chaos if some type of large scale revolt against teither a local/state or federal government took place. You would have the alphabet suop of federal agaencies thrown into what would already be a mess. Everyone would be jockeying for a position, and trying to make themselves look good.

If anyone does not beleive this happens, they have never worked for a government agency of any type.

[G]

In South Africa (96 / 97), we often had joint Military / Police roadblocks. The cops were there to pull vehicles over, search suspect vehicles for weapons and make arrests if necessary the army was there to look intimidating to deter any nasties from shooting at the cops.

Worked well. In a place where resisting arrest is common (by "resist" I mean shoot at the policeman with your AK47), the crims usually gave in meekly when the army was about.

Take Care...

G

[Snake]

Two words:
Alaskan Pipeline....


Snake
25th ID(L)

[SECON]

Snake,

One word in response. Well, okay, it's an acronym, CARVER (Criticality, Accessibility, Recuperability, Vulnerability, Effect and Risk)

Criticality: The pipeline has never reached it's intended goal of supplying the US with the majority of it's fossil fuel. So, taking it out wouldn't have a wide spread dramatic impact.

Accessibility: The pipeline is in some very isolated, rugged terrain that poses some unique challenges, no matter what the season. Undetected infil/exfil unlikely.

Recuperability: The pipeline would not be down for long. Expertise in fire suppression, damage control and systems repair is readily available. Hell, some of the pipeline engineers at British Petroleum and Occidental have made careers out of repairing sabotage/terrorism damage to South American pipelines.

Vulnerability: The level of sophistication in the flow control sytems are unmatched, minimizing the potential for widespread damage/long term ill effects.Add to that some very well thought out security precautions and procedures and a HIGHLY trained/skilled security force (Aleyska Pipelines security force personnel roster reads like a who's who of SpecWar Operators)

Effect: The potential for a massive ecological disaster certainly won't further any terrorist groups' cause with a fairly large segment of the general population.

Risk: High risk, low probability of success (see above) makes the pipeline a relatively unattractive target.

From the " Give Credit Where Credit is Due" Dept.: Hats off to Col. Frasier and Dr. Seger.



[This message has been edited by SECON (edited 06-19-2000).]

[Snake]

I'll refer you to General Schwarzkopf's Autobiography "It doesnt take a Hero". In the chapter where he talks about command in Alaska, he brings up guarding the pipeline from Soviet SOF. He remarked that you didnt have to -destroy- anything. "Shut down one pump station, of which there were many, for one hour, and you'd freeze the oil in the pipe. The world's longest licorice stick...". Replacing a 20 mile sqection of pipe full of frozen Alaskan-T is a nasty prospect...

Snake
25th ID(L)

[SECON]

Snake,

Hell, anything is POSSIBLE. But, if the goal is to disrupt or impact the lives of many there is an abundant supply of much more vulnerable, "softer", and accessable critical infrastucture located throughout the US. As a matter of fact, in the late 80's out in "Big Sky" country all it took was one rifle round into a tranformer at a power transmission station to knock out a large grid for quite some time!

How hard do you think it would be to "shut off" the water supply to a major city? Or for that matter, the sewer systems. Talk about a lot of...sorry, I just can't resist...p***ed off people with sh**ty attitudes!

To my way of thinking, had the plot to bomb the tunnels of New York City in conjunction with the Federal Building gone undeterred it would have had a far greater, and longer term, impact on a a huge percentage of the metropolitan area's population...and therefore would have been an infinetly more successful terrorist attack than, say, the World Trade Center bombing.

Just my opinion, and we know what they say...*LOL*LOL*LOL*

[This message has been edited by SECON (edited 06-20-2000).]

[SECON]

Sorry. Double Post

[This message has been edited by SECON (edited 06-20-2000).]

[Ranger002]

Wow guys great thread,
Similier to the Delta/NWO thread. Militia Groups are way overated for two reasons
1. G's in order to sustain an insurgency must have the support of the people ( thank you MAO ) sure individuals can do damage but movements need support
2. WACO and Oklahoma city are only important as SYMBOLS and as such WACO is seen as a tragedy of LE incompetance and Oklahoma City as the work of a couple of physco idiots.
The real conflict being fought here is one of propaganda as widely divergient interests fight to put thier "SPIN" on these and other events...Until the bad guys win the "spin" battle then and only then can they have any slim hope of converting this into any real public support.Why would this be a slim hope because of our free press and media.
AS semper fi guy so aptly put it we have much to think about with regard to people in POWER than we do with a bunch of wackos hooked up to the internet.
For example how many remember the CIA's annual assesment of the Soviet Union's combat power and the fact we spent TRILLIONS to "keep up with them"... they can't even handle a bunch or rebels in Chechnya ( which is a perfect example of classic gurilla warfare) and in IRAQ although we were outnumbered and outgunned on the ground with top Soviet Advisors and Front Line equipment and a conscription Army based on the Soviet Model and thousands of battle tested veterans
( Iran/Iraq war) they got killed... remember TRILLIONs were spent to combat the RED ARMY. Well Hells Bells now we have a drug war and a crime war and blah blah perhaps we need to get the Army and Navy involved and heck why not turn over civilian control while were at it and heck lets use a little racial profiling and incarcerate all Arabs and folks who vote for the Green party and blah blah blah. Now why won't this happen???
The 2nd Amendmant. Our greatest General of the 20th century Dwight Eisenhower said that he feared our own Military Industrial Complex more than the bad guys and now our new state of the art combat gear is going to cost us a bundle for what??? The Drug War of course...Cool thread and I can't wait to hear from you guys
William Hazen B 2/75 Ranger
AS for having Military on food stamps what do you expect when we buy attack subs at one billion apiece!!!

[Snake]

Haze,
the Iraqi screwup wasnt in their TO&E or equipment, but lack of agressive tactics. They were set up on the Red Army's
"Storm/Kill/Destroy" model, so why were they sitting in trenches waiting for us to bend em over the toilet and make em squeal? Plus, the utter lack of training or aggression in the Iraqi AF. The should have ran south ASAP, instead they waited until the US VIIth Corps arrived, then it became a forgone conclusion. Had they attacked in October...the Eighty-Deuce would be a memory.
BTW, the Militia cells have a significant lunatic fringe support pool. What they lack is any kind of large-scale coordination. Get that and you have a "Rebel Alliance" nightmare. Especially when Russia sells Kornet-E ATGM's and SA-18 Manpack SAMS for pennies on the dollar. Katyusha rockets are available to any decent machinist or rocket-geek.... could get interesting. However, it would takea sizable trigger-event to get em all moving at the same time. We havent seen an American version of the bombardment of the Winter Palace, yet.

Snake
25th ID(L)

[recce_o]

All of these militia types suffer from fundamental anti-social tendencies that render them unable to come together into a cohesive fighting force. I see them as a bunch of wannabe-but-never-will-be's who strive after the impossible of instituting their own NWO where, coincidentially, they will install themselves in a position of power. It's just a rationalization of their own inability to achieve anything in life. They're losers who are looking for an excuse so that they can bear the burden of their pathetic lives on a daily basis.

Basically, they are unable to go out and carve a piece of the world for themselves under the current system and try to rationalize this as a problem with the system, rather than a problem with themselves. I have yet to hear of any Moooolitia member who has achieved anything worthwhile in life.

As they are losers in life, so they will be losers in battle. As everyone on this board knows, fighting, especially guerrilla warfare, requires intelligence, intestinal fortitude and dedication. I see none of these qualities in the Militia movement.

Recce

[dsumner]

Militia groups, White Supremists, Tax protesters, etc. all have an wextensive underground support system, and a large number of sypathetic people supporting them.

How do you think it's possible for fugitive members of the groups to avoid being caught by the authorities for extended periods of time.

As for not taking them seriously, That could the bigist mistake you could make. Remember people used to think Hitler was an ut case and laughed at him, until he was elected into a position of power.

[dsumner]

Militia groups, White Supremists, Tax protesters, etc. all have an wextensive underground support system, and a large number of sypathetic people supporting them.

How do you think it's possible for fugitive members of the groups to avoid being caught by the authorities for extended periods of time.

As for not taking them seriously, That could the bigist mistake you could make. Remember people used to think Hitler was an ut case and laughed at him, until he was elected into a position of power.

[Snake]

Actually,
Some of tese groups, usually the snaer ones, are well put together, skilled, and quite sturdy. Its the wahoo-crowd like Militia of Montana, that give it a "fat Killbilly" image. Some, like the Black Dawn in Alaska, are nasty customers-in-training. Lotsa military experience, and I dont mean Transport guys, either. They fabricate Sten MkII's from bar-stock. The truly scary cats dont work as Regiments. The pro's are working in cell's, with only one link in each. Makes it really hard for the nomeklatura to infiltrate. Hell, Alabama State Beureau of Investigation lost a 2-man team last year, when they got too close to one of those guys...

Snake
25th ID(L)

[Snake]

I'll remind everyone that places, -civilized-
places, other than America have quite the problem with "Special Interest Groups, With Guns". Is it so inconceivable to picture Guard units looking for Battalion-level formations in the Everglades or Cascades? No? Ask the South Vietnamese government the same question in 1959 and again in 1975. Like it or not, America is, by definition if not politics, an Empire. We hold hegemony over many diverse groups, some of which dont play well with others. Most Empires begin their collapse from within. People running around semtex'ing public utilities and transport choke-points will really mess up a country.

Snake
25th ID(L)

[Ranger002]

Snake Baby,

Ok OK so it was Soviet DEFENSIVE tactics remember Kursk the largest tank battle in history? Well my friend the same idea was put forth by Saddam's Soviet Advisors Dig in and destroy them with well placed fields of fire but that is for another post. My point is that Soviet NON Nuke might was vastly overated by our own Intel sources and THEY knew it but used the bery scary big bad RED Bear to fuel our defense buildups.It was the greatest INTEL blunder in history and we bought it hook line and sinker. Now we have the same yahoo's finding bad guys around every corner Drug War, Militia Groups, and now China blah blah blah. Heck I remember when LE thought dusters ( PCP smokers) were going to take over the world a whole army of zombies.
Hint... so called militia groups and the like are still the lunatic fringe and even if they became a very minor threat CIVILIAN LE could handle it without breaking a sweat
A hell of alot of things would have to go wrong for them to be any kind of serious threat. I am more concerned with BOZOS buying Attack Subs for 1 Billi when the money should go to the troops. TRUE STORY
I have a friend who was the ELINT Officer aboard a Los Angeles class Attack Sub. He witnessed the transition from stalking the Commies to laughing out loud at the idea that they should cruise the coast of Columbia fighting the drug lords by evesdropping on thier cell phones
This guy has some stories ( hint hint his stories give a whole new meaning to the word STEALTH LOL ).
Get my point we need to rethink this thing and stopping trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.I await your insight.
William Hazen

[Daredevil]

Militia groups are disorganized for their own security. Working in small cells makes it more difficult for the Fed to infiltrate them. If you are working only with people you know closely you tend to trust them more. Militia nut Louis Beam sent this out to all militia groups as a suggestion. He called it "Leaderless Resistance".

It's quite similar to what the PIRA was forced to do in Northern Ireland in the 70's. They originally had a Brigade structure with a defined chain of command. That was very easy for MI5 to penetrate so they went to the cell structure method and it increased their effectiveness. Whether or not you believe in their cause (which I don't but I don't want to get political here) you have to respect the PIRA's resourcefulness.

I think militias make up a spectrum. You have the hard core anti-government types who have a high potential for violence on one end. And on the other end, I think you got some guys concerned about the 2nd Amendment but really just have this whole militia thing as an excuse to go out on weekends and play soldier with his buddies.

Danny Coulson, FBI HRT founder, said in his book "No Heros" that he thinks that militias are made up of guys that wished they could have been in SF, SEALs, Delta, etc. but just weren't smart enough or couldn't do it physically or whatever and they're looking to fill that void in their lives.

[Ranger002]

Thank You DD,

As LE has Wyatt Earp Syndrome Militia groups have John Rambo. Go to your average run of the mill gun show and you will never met more ex SAS GREEN BERET RANGER SEAL COMMANDOS in your whole life. Hell there is evan a few professional Mercs who can consume entire boxes of Krispy Kreme Doughnuts in one sitting. The IRA had a cause with significant support thus could afford to use the G "cell" structure. READ my LIPS no militant group will ever be able to have any major effect without the ORGANIZED support of a large minority of the population. It is the individual "minuteman" that poses the real danger.
William Hazen B 2/75 Ranger C 3/12 SFGA(R)

[recce_o]

Hanzen,

Apparently we've been to some of the same gun shows!

Recce

[SECON]

Sorry, double post (see below)

[This message has been edited by SECON (edited 06-21-2000).]

[SECON]

Hazen,

Couldn't agree more. The concept of operating effective "leaderless resistance (or cells)" is well beyond the level of command, control, communication and intel of the vast majority of the anti-government "conspircay-of-the-month club". Any widespread insurgency CAN NOT be successful with out the support, both active and passive, of a large segment of the population.

IMHO, the Oklahoma City Bombing did more to generate the rapid decline in active membership in militia and/or patriot groups than any upturn in the economy. The bulk of those folks are/were wannabe's lookin' to go out and shoot sh**t, blow sh**t up and drink beer with the boys on a weekend (all without having to endure any trivial nonsense such as basic training, individual skills training and legitimate small unit tactics training in a formalized setting). Once the Feds started taking a hard look at these groups the distinction between "true believers" and the "half-hearted" was defined by the squeal of pick-up truck tires as those less dedicated to the cause sped away from the "headquarters compound" as quickly as possible *LOL*LOL*LOL*

Don't take that to mean that I don't think the core members of these organizations, especially those that are maintaining a low profile, don't represent a legitimate threat!
The potential and propensity for violent action that exists within some of these individuals and groups is tremendous. Just not sure that, in the here and now, these individuals and groups have the depth and breadth of infrastructure needed to support a legitimate uprising. However, things can, and do, always change.

As far as the legitimacy of the concept of a "leaderless resistance (or cell)" while it is a great little theory, in practice it is nearly unachievable. For example, the simultaneous bombing of US embassies on the African continent were attributed to leaderless cells operating independently. I wish someone could explain, then, exactly how the cells were able to operate for over a year in their respective locales and then
achieve the level of relatively precise timing that made these attacks so noteworthy.
While these cells may not have had a clearly defined internal heirarchy, they most certainly had a well developed command and control structure above them. Compartmentalized operations..most certainly;leaderless cells..
hardly.

In the same vane, though in the realm of domestic terrorism, there is the Oklahoma City Bombing. LE agencies, talking heads and pundits (chairborne Rangers)were quick to hang the leaderless cell monicker on the trio of "geniuses" that perpetrated that attack. Well, can someone please explain how three former 11 Mike's, one an admitted speed freak, managed to build a rather effective enhanced low order device, array it in such a manner as to maximize the potential of the blast, and then select a target that lent itself so perfectly to the size, configuration and stand off distance of the device. Oh, I almost forgot, they figured this all out over the sinister
internet and by blowin' up ANFO devices out on the farm. Just f**kin' lucky I guess.
Hell, with that kind of luck one of 'em should have run for President!

[Snake]

SECON,
on target, as usual. These wannabe-G's are only local threats, for now. As you said, that could change. One thing, though.
The "Cell" structure only works if you have a central/nodal C3I system. Much like the
(P)IRA works in cells, but their Army HQ calls the overall shots. Having wildcat teams running around with their own gameplan is a recipe for chaos. Any sane Guerilla campaign in the US would be aimed at degrading the Federal Government's capacity to extend it's influence into the G's territory. Once this is achieved, they could consolidate locally. Everything depends on establishing a "Bandit Country" or safe-haven in which to consolidate their gains. Much like the (P)IRA held areas of Londonderry and Belfast as Autonomous Zones in the 1970's...

Snake
25th ID(L)

[SECON]

Snake,

Ahhh, yes! The (P)IRA. Perhaps the most sophisticated, well organized guerilla force seen to date. Certainly the most effective urban terrorists, in terms of planning, OPSEC and execution. Though to be quite honest, the more recent operations have been less than impressive. Personally, I am not a great believer in the off-shoot or splinter group rhetoric. These claims certainly provide a significant degree of plausible deniability. If they were your "people" and you are committed to the peace process, reining these factions in should be a priority!

The decrease in effective operational capability in any terrorist or guerilla organization may well be a function of the "aging out" process. The older, wiser (read as more experienced)operators have, at the very least, reached a level within the organization that has them far removed from the day-to-day planning and operations. Besides, on either side of the fight, age and maturity equate to a lower propensity to take unneccesary risks, and the older one gets the less "necessary" many risks become.

The downside to a cease fire or truce with any terrorist or guerilla faction that has survived and/or thrived as long as the (P)IRA is the "now what?" factor. The ongoing conflict has provided many (young and old alike) with a skill set with limited market potential. How easy do you think it would be for a second or third generation "freedom fighter" to adapt to a blue or white collar nine-to-five gig? Almost certainly, a fair amount of shooters and looters will offer their expertise, either in the realm of operations or training, to the highest bidder. Anyone disagree that the possibility exists that any one of a number of more violent domestic or foreign groups would be willing to pay handsomely for that knowledge and expertise?

Stay Alert, Stay Alive...and just maybe, Stay Employed!

[This message has been edited by SECON (edited 06-22-2000).]

[Daredevil]

Northern Ireland has a huge number of splinter groups. The new splinter groups are basically cells that didn't like the direction the Army Council took. That's why they have the different names: Continuity IRA, Real IRA. One older splinter group was the INLA. The INLA made no declaration to cease activity and some PIRA guys made "personal visits" to some of the INLA membership.

The Loyalist side has their offshoots too. The main groups of the UVF and UDA have given rise to offshoots like the LVF, UFF, Red Hand Commandos, and Red Hand Defenders etc.

According to publicly available intel estimates prior to the GFA the PIRA had about 400 active hardcore members, several hundred in prison, and 2-3000 supporters. They also recieved funding from overseas sources like the US and Australia. They recieved a small amount of logistical support and training from Libya. Allegedly, Libya's training of them wasn't very beneficial since it was thought to be conventional in nature as opposed to unconventional.

The IRA's support base was what kept it going. Also the fact that they were divided ethnically helped to forment an "us vs. them" attitude. Now, US militia's don't have a support base nearly that expansive and the chances of them getting overseas support is slim. Who know? Maybe someday some terrorist state will make contact with them and start some kind of support relationship. That could be real trouble. Khaddafi tried it once with a Chicago street gang. He just went to the wrong people.

[Mike]

The FBI seemed to give the IRA some leeaway for organizations (especially in Mass.) who raised funds for the IRA. Some Irish-American agents could have fought the IRA much more aggressively since the IRA taught car bombs to other terrorists groups.. Personal opinion, mind you.

[Sharky]

God, I need to get a life.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Daredevil]

The FBI had set up sting operations to capture IRA members and collaborators in weapons deals. A more interesting compromising of law enforcement allegedly occured when some IRA guys looking for guns showed up in Boston and not only did some of Boston's finest meet up with them, they helped them to locate Organized Crime figures that could help them obtain the hardware.

[SECON]

Sharky,

120 posts since April...man, you ARE right, you need to get a life! But I'm thinking this really ain't the place to be looking for one!

Hey, do you know how to tell if you're
spending WAAAAY too much time here? It's when you dye your hair blonde (just ask Snake, he'll tell ya'). *LOL*LOL*LOL*

Hey, just kidding around...I always enjoy "hearing" what both of you have to "say".

[Armadillo]

What do ya'll think about the Mexican drug cartels wreeking havoc on the border? I think this would be a good application for US Spec ops...... There have been several murders and gun battles.. unknown if US citizens were victims.... Just thought I'd put out there.... Armadillo

[RGR.Montcalm]

I think this resurrection beats the previous record holder by 2 years!!!

Oh yeah and I agree- graduation exercise from Sniper School on the Mexican Border...

[AJG]

Sorry, should have checked the dates. Didn't realize I was jumping into an eight year old thread. Comments deleted.

[Ned&StacyFan]

[QUOTE=dvpj;74022]Having been in a capacity close to this I feel a bit qualified to reply.

Greetings,

I'm on the job in Westchester County NY (The county that lies directly north of the NYC border for the uninitiated among you.) I am curious in what capacity you are speaking in as much as I enjoy reading different points of view on this subject.
A friend on mine sent me an article on how MS-13 is basically taking over certain sections of the country. I personally wouldn't mind sending military covert ops units to eliminate them seeing as how they have no qualms about killing cops, as well as anyone else they see fit. Anyway, enjoy your weekend and be safe.

CB

[JCasp]

Interesting to go back through and read these pre-9/11 replies.

[Trip_Wire]

I think it's a bad idea! So, did the people who founded this Country!

[Tracy]

Here's the deal:

Could military SOF and Intelligence do the job? Yes.

Should they? No.

We in the military like to encounter problems once; and that's the problem. We will use whatever force necessary to handle the problem the first time. Americans don't like seeing that level of force applied in their towns. LEOs have a helluva lot more patience than we do regarding revisiting the same problem over and over.

Military starts at the top of the force continuum (firepower) and work downward when considering options. By law, LEOs start at the bottom (verbiage) and work upward. Which one do you want through your door at 2 AM?

Another aspect to consider is that military units are not required to take prisoners during the assault phase of an operation; whether the enemy is armed or not. Can we selectively distinguish and engage the enemy from friendlies? Yes, but "collateral damage" will occur before we not engage an enemy hiding behind a friendly. Again, are our citizens ready for that kind operation inside our borders? Not so much...

[AccessDenied]

Because the National Guard is a state force except when activated federally Posse Comitatus does not apply.

With that being said they do operate in many ways within the US. MOS does not matter and any member of the Guard (army and air) can operate in a LE, Infantry, Intel capacity.

Most domestic National Guard operations fall under the Counter Drug program. Most terrorist sales are funded by drugs.

Right now there is a MAJOR focus on MS-13 in the southern HIDTA's (high intensity drug trafficking areas) as well as gang focus all throughout the country. And while most National Guard ADSW programs are having their funding cut at the end of the fiscal year the CD program is getting a boost and adding more personal.

Intel oversight is closely monitored (they're not tapping phones and planting bugs) but they do use helicopters/blimps for low flying, they do use infantry to recon/gather in intel on facilities with no one noticing and the do use military to help with raids and busts.