Death Wobble?

[rgrdrew]

I was wondering if there were any fellow Jeep owners who have experienced this particular phenomenon? I've done some research on the internet and discovered it is not an uncommon event involving later model Jeep Wranglers and some Cherokees. It seems to be related to the timeframe when Jeeps went through the change from leaf spring suspension to coil springs all around. Anybody have first-hand experience with this and if so, what did you do to fix it? The research I've done narrows it down to about five different possibilities. I'm no slouch with a wrench, but I'll be damned if I can find anything loose in the front end. I'm getting tired of having my teeth rattled and really don't want to end up in a ditch somewhere! :(

Thanks,
RgrDrew
RLTW!

[Old_Starlight]

I was wondering if there were any fellow Jeep owners who have experienced this particular phenomenon? I've done some research on the internet and discovered it is not an uncommon event involving later model Jeep Wranglers and some Cherokees. It seems to be related to the timeframe when Jeeps went through the change from leaf spring suspension to coil springs all around. Anybody have first-hand experience with this and if so, what did you do to fix it? The research I've done narrows it down to about five different possibilities. I'm no slouch with a wrench, but I'll be damned if I can find anything loose in the front end. I'm getting tired of having my teeth rattled and really don't want to end up in a ditch somewhere! :(

Thanks,
RgrDrew
RLTW!

Drew...how's things mate?

On this subject, it may be the rubber she's wearing. Some tyre paterns, particularly uni-directional all terrain rubber, can give nasty handling characteristics at speed which feel like a tie rod end is ready to drop.

Just a thought......sty safe.

Cheers,

AJ

[KSM]

Just to clarify, do you have leaf springs or no? I was going to suggest checking the leaf spring bushings, as they can F your stability all up if they start going bad...

[rgrdrew]

Drew...how's things mate?

On this subject, it may be the rubber she's wearing. Some tyre paterns, particularly uni-directional all terrain rubber, can give nasty handling characteristics at speed which feel like a tie rod end is ready to drop.

Just a thought......sty safe.

Cheers,

AJ

AJ,
Going well, thanks. How are you doing?

Pretty sure it's not the tires. I've had these same tires for almost two years and this just started in the last 2-3 months and getting steadily worse from a slight vibration/shimmy to what it's like now, feeling like the front end is ready to fly apart around 45-50mph.

Thanks,
Drew

[rgrdrew]

Just to clarify, do you have leaf springs or no? I was going to suggest checking the leaf spring bushings, as they can F your stability all up if they start going bad...

KSM,
Sorry about that, should have stated that. I have a 2004, with coil springs. I think the coil spring thing started early 2000's.

RgrDrew

[KSM]

KSM,
Sorry about that, should have stated that. I have a 2004, with coil springs. I think the coil spring thing started early 2000's.

RgrDrew

Then my limited Jeep knowledge is useless, sorry! I used to wrench the hell out of my old CJ-7, but you have to be a NASA scientist to work on these new-fangled cars. :tongue:

[JDAM]

Assuming it is a 4WD, those things just ride hard to be honest with you. Used to have one back in the day and you could really feel the bumps in the road. However, it sounds like your suspension may be bottomed out, either that or your coil springs need to be replaced because they've taken so much of a beating over the past few years that they are tapping out for good.

This happens after a while (had my Ford Ranger have the same problem about three months ago) and new coil springs can get expensive (with installation), but it needs to be done. When I did mine, I replaced everything in the suspension, bolts, mounts, you name it.

The Ranger is a '93 XLT 4.0 4WD with only 91,000 miles. :cool: Awesome truck, fuckin love it. Got a one 3 inch lift with 17 inch rims and offroad tires. Take it hunting all the time. Nice because it fits down trails the F150 won't (which is lifted 6 inches and has 20 inch rims with off road tires :eek: lol). Rides beautiful now. :biggrin:

My guess is your rig is just due for a suspension upgrade. How long has it been since the suspension was addressed?

[Carl Spackler]

I was wondering if there were any fellow Jeep owners who have experienced this particular phenomenon? I've done some research on the internet and discovered it is not an uncommon event involving later model Jeep Wranglers and some Cherokees. It seems to be related to the timeframe when Jeeps went through the change from leaf spring suspension to coil springs all around. Anybody have first-hand experience with this and if so, what did you do to fix it? The research I've done narrows it down to about five different possibilities. I'm no slouch with a wrench, but I'll be damned if I can find anything loose in the front end. I'm getting tired of having my teeth rattled and really don't want to end up in a ditch somewhere! :(

Thanks,
RgrDrew
RLTW!

Yes. Don't put oversize tires on unless you rework the suspension.

[rgrdrew]

KSM, I know what you mean about the new fangled vehicles. I like my Jeep though, still pretty simple comparitively speaking.

JDAM, I'm inclined to think that's not it. If the springs were worn out I would expect the excess movement to be in the vertical plane, like tire hopping or something else to indicate bottoming out, tires out of round, shocks worn, etc. and bouncing up and down. The movement I'm experiencing is more horizontal. I can stick my head out when it happens and watch the driver side tire almost flopping back and forth sideways. I would have expected loose tie rod ends, bad wheel bearings, etc. but when I put it up on stands I can find no play anywhere. It is 4WD, but has really never had a rough ride. I've been in the old CJ's with leaf springs and know rough rides. Nothing will ever beat my old F-250, factory high-boy though! That thing road like an oxcart! Back on track though...my Jeep only has 55K on it.

DDSSDV, I did go bigger on tires but nothing outrageous. I replaced the stock 215 75R 15's with 245 75R 16's about 2 years ago. Things were fine til about 3 months ago. When you say "rework the suspension", what exactly are you talking about? What needs to be reworked or upgraded? Assuming even the slight change I made would require it?

Thanks all for the responses, looking forward to more information! A little more info on what I did with mine...I put 2" coil spring spacers on the front end to bring it back up after mounting a Mile Marker hydraulic winch on it. As mentioned above, went from 15 to 16 inch wheels/tires and a little wider on the rubber. Nothing too agressive. It's a daily driver (when I don't ride the bike) more than a rock crawler and I don't abuse it.

RgrDrew

[rgrdrew]

Here's a youtube video of the exact thing I'm experiencing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwiv23dLhMY&NR=1

RgrDrew

[KS11]

Here's a youtube video of the exact thing I'm experiencing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwiv23dLhMY&NR=1

RgrDrew

:eek::eek::eek: Holy crap!

[rgrdrew]

:eek::eek::eek: Holy crap!

Yeah,
First time it happened I about dropped a load in my pants!:eek:

RgrDrew

[Old_Starlight]

AJ,
Going well, thanks. How are you doing?

Pretty sure it's not the tires. I've had these same tires for almost two years and this just started in the last 2-3 months and getting steadily worse from a slight vibration/shimmy to what it's like now, feeling like the front end is ready to fly apart around 45-50mph.

Thanks,
Drew

Good thanks....still alive and kicking :biggrin:

Good luck with that...I'm not sure where to look on Jeeps....Land-Rovers being my beast of choice.

Cheers,

AJ

[Ole crusty bastard]

Is there a steering dampening shock in the steering linkage?

[JumpCut]

I had '98 Cherokee that was used mainly for hauling/hunting, etc. It was in great condition all around and drove like a champ until I hit 50 MPH. That's when the front end would vibrate violently. No wait, it was more than that. The whole damn front end would jump up and down like a rodeo bull. I screamed like a 4 year old girl the first time it happened on the Interstate. Could be because I spilled hot coffee on my junk. Anyway...

Like you, I narrowed it down to tire balance, suspension, alignment, track bar and a few other suspects but never really solved the puzzle. I eventually traded it in on a new truck.

This was about four years ago, and at the time, there were no class action suits. I wouldn't be surprised if Jeep loses big on this one.

[Viking]

Are you kidding me? This is a well know Jeep problem and it hasn't been addressed by Jeep?


That shit is nuts.

[JumpCut]

Are you kidding me? This is a well know Jeep problem and it hasn't been addressed by Jeep?

That shit is nuts.

I called two Jeep dealerships back when I was dealing with it, and spoke directly to the service mangers. In both cases, they denied knowing anything about it, which was complete bullshit. A simple Google search showed thousands of hits for Death Wobble. I talked to my attorney about it, and he basically said 'don't bother,' since I hadn't been injured. (Except for scalded plums.)

[Trailboss]

I have a 98 Sahara, and this problem cropped up after I put a lift on her. It happened before I put the 32x11.5" tires on her. Turned out that one of my sway bar links was all worn out. I bought a pair of Teraflex quick disconnects and got rid of the death wobble problem. Scared the hell out of me a couple times, thats for sure!! You might want to check out the jeep forums for more insight.

www.jeepforum.com or www.jeepsunlimited.com ...there are some very knowledgable folks over there and a LOT of information.

www.quadratec.com is where I usually buy parts and stuff...

[Joker]

I've had these same tires for almost two years and this just started in the last 2-3 months and getting steadily worse from a slight vibration/shimmy to what it's like now, feeling like the front end is ready to fly apart around 45-50mph.

Thanks,
Drew

I have an 04 Rubi and mine started doing it a couple months ago but not near as bad as in the vid but i thought it was the tires as mine need replacing which I am planning on doing sometime in the next month. Weird thing is it doesn’t really start until around the 45mph and then stops after you get slightly over 50mph; more than likely that is what broke my sway bars.

Like yours mine is a daily driver and i have to get it into the parking garages at work, no outside parking in Reston, so I am looking at a 2.5 Rough Country Suspension lift and Maxxis 32.5x11.5. I'm also looking at getting rid of my 16x8 rims and going with 15x10. It wouldn’t surprise me that worn tires on 8in wide rims cause the wobble as they pinch the tire a little more causing it to bow slightly.

[RangerCharlie]

Looks like it mainly affects lifted Jeeps. Never had that issue on my '01 or '05 Wranglers, but they were never lifted.
I seems that something is getting out of balance after hitting rough pavement, potholes or the like at certain speeds.
Coil springs started in with the 1997 model year.

[OS3]

I have experienced death wobble at 106 mph on a dragstrip, in a 7,000 lbs truck, no fun. First thing was the pitman arm, and it didn't feel loose because it had so mouch tension on it until the suspension unloaded it, then I had to add a dual steering stabilizer from skyjacker. That solved it. The pitman arm was because the truck was lifted, but the common fix in the 3/4 ton Dodge trucks was the steering stabilizers. OCB is on the money with his question.

[Joker]

Looks like it mainly affects lifted Jeeps.

Mine is not lifted yet, I'm hoping the lift, wider rims and new tires will take care of it.

[OldSwabbie]

AJ,
Going well, thanks. How are you doing?

Pretty sure it's not the tires. I've had these same tires for almost two years and this just started in the last 2-3 months and getting steadily worse from a slight vibration/shimmy to what it's like now, feeling like the front end is ready to fly apart around 45-50mph.

Thanks,
Drew

I had a Jeep J20 truck.. Badass Truck, long time ago though. I would hit a bump in the road, especially RR tracks .. felt like it knocked something loose...then the entire front end would start shaking and wobbling...It was so violent, I lost ideas in that Milkshake maker. Turns out it was worn/defective tie rods and linkage.


Good luck.

[Saw7616]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trEYTEeOb5w&NR=1

This link looks like he's found the culprit. I bet the rubber on the suspension arms are wearing or are worn out.

[Psi Brr]

I have a 2001 Grand Cherokee that does the same thing. It's definitely accentuated by braking.

Add to that the GCs seem to have inferior brake rotors in the initial design, and required a swap out of the brake assemblies. They were considered "Service Bulletin" alerts and not recall, so everything came out-of-pocket.

I'm going to have my Jeep checked out next week, and I'll let you know what happens as far as the diagnosis goes.

[GPC]

Just ride it out, thats how I handle speed wobbles longboarding.;)
Idler arm?I had a up-armored that would do that and that seemed to fix it.

[Papa Smurf]

1. When you install a lift kit the caster angle changes slightly due to unequal length control arms. You may be able to correct this by altering the caster angle. You may have to set the castor outside of normal specs to bring the vehicle to compensate for the change. If this works document what you have as the next time you go for an alignment the knuckle buster at Big-O tire may reset it and the wobble will return.

2. If you have more than 50,000 and have changed the tires check the control arm bushings. They wear along with the tires – replace them with polyurethane bushings and do a 4 X 4 wheel alignment to make sure your back in specs.

3. You may want to have a mechanic check the track bar. If it is failing due to bolt or metal fatigue it can cause the wobble. This is one of the few times I recommend a certified Jeep mechanic as they have the tools and are accountable for the repair…

4. Lastly, may I suggest... (my solution to the problem) Instead of installing a lift kit I opted to install the Rubicon wheels and tires on the Wrangler X - I have 10" of ground clearance which will cover most rough terrain and at the same time gives a comfortable on-road ride. Also, added nitrogen to the tires which upped the mileage about 3mpg.

[JDAM]

Here's a youtube video of the exact thing I'm experiencing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwiv23dLhMY&NR=1

RgrDrew

Holy crap, I have never seen a Jeep wobble that much on the front end before. That is crazy!

Let me know what it is when you find out, I have a buddy with asimilar model and would like to give him the heads up.

Hope you get the situation resolved. :cool:

[triumph]

Yeah,
First time it happened I about dropped a load in my pants!:eek:

RgrDrew

My buddy had it happen to him and his fiance while on the Coronado bridge in SD. She hasn't left him but won't ride in that truck anymore. He does have some lift and tire work. I'll find out what he did to remedy it.

I have a stock cherokee so nothing happened to me so far......

[Spinner]

Here's a youtube video of the exact thing I'm experiencing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwiv23dLhMY&NR=1

RgrDrew

Are you sure it's problem with the coils? It looks like either the tie rods or the ball joints.

I experienced a similar problem with a Chevy van I drove for work many years back. At speed, the front end would start to shake and the wheels would wobble, building up into a crescendo of shaking and wobbling until I was able to slow it down.

Driving on the expressway, until it was fixed, was an adventure.

[RAT]

Let me know if you want me to drop Bill a note (http://www.bb4wa.com/). He is the fore most mofo I know in the offroad vehicle biz and helped build this and the FJ.

So anything I can do to help let me know.

I got an e-mail about this problem but I deleted it a few yrs ago. I have a Dugango for offroad not a Jeep. I am pissed that I tossed it out now.

RO!!!

[Spinner]

Death Wobble. It almost sounds like an adventure packed summer movie.

"Coming soon to an off ramp near you..."

[Amarillo]

Been there! :eek:
Is there a steering dampening shock in the steering linkage?
I bought a used 1995 Grand Cherokee (all original equipment except tires) that developed the Death Wobble. Fooking scary ride at highway speed in traffic. I would buy another Jeep in a minute, except for that one feature. Replacing the steering dampening shock resulted in less poop on the driver's seat. (The car died of natural causes shortly thereafter.)

[Derka Derka]

Spinner, I was thinking the same thing. I had a 1972 Chevy pick up and was noticing the vibration on the front end starting to get real bad at high speeds and didnt know what the heck.So I took it to a chassis shop and they showed me how bad my ball joints were worn... they replaced them and the tie rods and I never had the problem again.
A side note is that i finally took it in after someone pulled up next to me on the freeway and pointed to my front tires... they must have looked as bad as the ones in the vid. Anyways, i know its not a Chevy, but heck, it couodnt hurt to check that stuff out.

[grog18b]

Assuming it is a 4WD, those things just ride hard to be honest with you.

Not entirely correct. The wife and I bought two Wranglers back in 02. Hers was a 2001, mine was a 2002. Same model, except mine had a snow plow mount on the front for a 6' Wagner. Hers had 500 miles on it, mine had 3. Hers rode like a tank. Mine was smooth as glass. Hers felt like every bump, someone was whacking you in the ass with a 2x6. Mine went over rocks like they were not there. The road I lived on could have been used in a Jeep commercial. We spoke with the dealer, (yeah, a lot of info there...) and he advised the shocks were good on both, and the same type, as well as the springs. Only explination he could offer was the weight of the plow package mount evened out the suspension, reducing the shock of impact. (Whateverthehellthatmeans)

I loved my Wrangler, but at 1700 miles, it experienced an engine fire after I drove 8 miles to work and parked. Jeep bought it back, as well as the plow, steps I paid for, hard top I paid for, and gave me the money back I had already paid their finance company. Seems there was a problem with them...

[spectr17]

Dodge Quad Cabs get the Death Wobble when lifted with big tires. A buddy got it bad and pulled his lift and everything is okay now. Some say it's using D rated tired on E rated trucks, low tire pressure, worn suspension parts etc.. All kinds of theories on the Dodge forums.

I went oversize with tires a few notches on my Quad cab with no lift and so far no problems. Running Big O AT 285s, up from the stock 265s.

[Carl Spackler]

KSM, I know what you mean about the new fangled vehicles. I like my Jeep though, still pretty simple comparitively speaking.

DDSSDV, I did go bigger on tires but nothing outrageous. I replaced the stock 215 75R 15's with 245 75R 16's about 2 years ago. Things were fine til about 3 months ago. When you say "rework the suspension", what exactly are you talking about? What needs to be reworked or upgraded? Assuming even the slight change I made would require it?


RgrDrew

Shocks, springs and /or a good lift kit done professionally NOT addaleafs. Depends on what you want to do as far as off road. I had issues with the width not the height with my tread. Too wide makes it shimmy. I prefer leafs front and back. Off road vehicles now days are made to ride like cars.

[Carl Spackler]

Dodge Quad Cabs get the Death Wobble when lifted with big tires. A buddy got it bad and pulled his lift and everything is okay now. Some say it's using D rated tired on E rated trucks, low tire pressure, worn suspension parts etc.. All kinds of theories on the Dodge forums.

I went oversize with tires a few notches on my Quad cab with no lift and so far no problems. Running Big O AT 285s, up from the stock 265s.

I had 33-15's on my Dudge quad. Never an issue other than the POS was shop sour. I had the Dudge dealer tell me the tires caused my manual tranny 1st gear to fail. I proved them wrong when a rocket scientist bro of mine did calculations to show them (ratio mumbo jumbo). They shut up. The warranty did the rest.

[Carl Spackler]

My F250 has a 4 inch lift, new leafs in the front, Bilsteins and 33-16 BF's all the way around. I can do over a 100 and no vibrations. Tires are key as well. Some tires are out of round to the point of causing huge wobbles at even low speeds.

[offcamber]

I've built many modified Jeeps and 4x4's and "death wobble" is pretty common. There isn't any common cause of it. Basically anything that can start a resonation in the suspension can do it. Out of balance tires to warn swaybar bushings. The most common cause on lifted Jeeps is an incomplete lift. Usually the owner swaps out for taller springs or puts lift pucks in but doesn't do anything to adjust the steering. That may mean a dropped pitman arm or an adjustable trackbar. A lot of people try and nullify the symptom instead of fix the cause by putting a beefier steering stabalizer on. First if you lifted it, did you account for the lift in the steering system? That usually means a longer pitman arm and/or an adjustable trackbar (to center the wheels). It can be a mother to isolate the exact cause if you have done the above, but start with tires and work your way up. If the tires are too far out of balance you can get it as well.

This isnt Jeep specific. I had it on a 69 Bronco as well. My brother had a 2005 Dodge RAM Cummins 4x4 that he put a 2" puck lift on and he got it going 70 pulling a trailer with. He almost shit his pants. He took the puck lift out and still got it. The dealership tried 6 times to get it out and had no luck. He ended up doing a lemon law job on it and getting the whole truck replaced.

[rgrdrew]

Well, here's the latest. I took it in and had new tires put on all the way around. Had the entire front end gone over, nothing loose, worn or otherwise not normal. My alignment was slightly off on the toe, and I had the steering stabilizer shock replaced. That was the only thing they could find that might be the problem. I'll post again after I drive it home and see how it goes.

[rgrdrew]

Picked up the Jeep, new tires, alignment, steering stabilizer. Thing is rock solid now! Guess it must have been the steering stabilizer, which is odd because I had put on an aftermarket heavy duty stabilizer and it was less than 2 years old. Nice to drive down the road and not have my teeth shaken out of my head! So yet another non-answer to this problem, just got lucky I guess.

RgrDrew
RLTW!

[Psi Brr]

Twas the stabilizer on my Jeep too... And my apologies for not letting you know what I found out when I had it fixed. Duh.

[Forestboy]

Just saw this. It was the steering stabilizer on my 05 Wrangler Unlimited.

Jeep replaced it at about 40K.

When it started doing the same thing after another 40K, I took it in to a local mechanic in NC and he said run it with 3-4 lbs less air in the front tires or replace the stabilizer. I lowered the air and have not had any problems with it since. My brother has been driving it since April when I went to Afghanistan with no problems.

[Section8]

This is very common on solid axle jeeps that get lifted to around 4" on short arms. The steering stab. is the bandage. My grand was great until I went to 4.5" fought it for 8 mo. tried everything. I went through a lot of parts (equates to $). I finally fixed it completely by going to long arms. When I look back I have figured out that I paid for the long arm suspension 2x :eek:! After installing the long arms I ran it for about 6 mo. without a SS. The only reasons I installed one was because I got really nasty feed back in the sreering wheel rock crawling it, especially with the front locker engaged. I wish I could give you an easier solution, but there really isn't one. I would say the lesson I learned it to do it right the first time!. Best of luck!! and I hope you get it fixed.

[Sharky]

Here's mine. 3.5" lift, 33's. Drives great, no wobble.

[sigma1]

Got to this late.
Usually down where I am, its always the steering. From the links, to bushings to arms even suspension arm bushings. Anything that can allow a minute side to side movement will do this at high loads, specially with bigger tires.
Many times I have replaced parts that the dealer said were still good and that fixed the problem.

Keep in mind that kits over 3.5 inches on Jeeps mess with the drive shaft angles.

On another note, down here we use TJM or ARB lift kits. Only 2.5 inches but the best suspension I have ever tried.
They make pot holes disappear.
I go from asphalt to dirt roads at 60 mph without slowing down.

Stay Safe

Sigma