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Scout_22
9 August 2009, 21:28
Greetings Gentlemen,
I started this thread because of a earlier thread on Tracking. I am currently teaching tracking to AD and Reserve Marines and was trained by TTOS, which was a great course. I was wondering if there were any follow on courses that would help augment the training I've already had? Besides tracking through as many different mediums as we can to build better "folders" I was wondering if there were any formal schools out there that offer anything past the basics of tactical tracking. Thanks.
Scout

Guy
9 August 2009, 23:29
If there's any organization that does tracking on a daily basis, it would be the US Border Patrol.

Horned Toad
10 August 2009, 08:43
If there's any organization that does tracking on a daily basis, it would be the US Border Patrol.

I donít know of any advanced classes put on by the BP, not to say they are not there but if they are they are keeping them quiet. I want:( to go to TTOS

Guy
10 August 2009, 10:05
I donít know of any advanced classes put on by the BP, not to say they are not there but if they are they are keeping them quiet. I want:( to go to TTOSI worked with a few of the "old" BP guys who taught tracking. Charlie Pirtle was one of them teaching ATAP @ New Mexico Tech in Soccorro NM.

Stay safe.

Horned Toad
10 August 2009, 15:18
I worked with a few of the "old" BP guys who taught tracking. Charlie Pirtle was one of them teaching ATAP @ New Mexico Tech in Soccorro NM.

Stay safe.

One of the guys I used to work with taught at Socorro for a while also, maybe around 02 or 03. It sounded pretty interesting. The BP will do lots of informal tracking classes in house, but I havenít heard of any kind of official deal.

Scout_22
10 August 2009, 21:10
Thanks guys, I might have to contact some of my BP friends. There has been talk of a advanced course but it wouldn't have any more advanced tracking, more on the COC and reporting info side of the house. I'll keep on looking.
Scout

ccorgr175
11 August 2009, 01:14
...PM Cco275. He may be able to help...although he's hard to get a hold of ;)


Cheers,

2%

Gunpoint
11 August 2009, 01:20
TTOS Level II and II schools are all over the place. One in Hawaii soon. Contact Rangers at the following National Parks - Yosemite, Blue Ridge Parkway, Yellowstone, Great Smokies, Organ Pipe, Coronado, Rocky Mountain, Lake Amistad, Lake Mead.

All have active tracking programs and all track on a daily basis.

Horned Toad
12 August 2009, 10:17
Thanks guys, I might have to contact some of my BP friends. There has been talk of a advanced course but it wouldn't have any more advanced tracking, more on the COC and reporting info side of the house. I'll keep on looking.
Scout


Thatís the new Patrol in a nutshell; letís have an advanced tracking class that covers COC and reporting. I would bet this is because now all of a sudden SRT or whoever is the local tactical empire are the ONLY ones who can handle tactical tracking and everyone else is a meat puppet who is only capable of securing the scene and opening doors.

LoneRanger
12 August 2009, 15:52
This is the course we attend. Great school: http://www.fletc.gov/state-and-local/rural-policing-institute/backcountry-tactics-and-tracking-training-program-rpi/

Another unit that is highly trained is the Shadow Wolves. Attached to CBP. Native Americans.....

DesertSloth
14 August 2009, 18:11
That’s the new Patrol in a nutshell; let’s have an advanced tracking class that covers COC and reporting. I would bet this is because now all of a sudden SRT or whoever is the local tactical empire are the ONLY ones who can handle tactical tracking and everyone else is a meat puppet who is only capable of securing the scene and opening doors.


I am going to call bullshit on this one. Tactical Tracking is being taught as we speak in Nogales. Tactical tracking is being taught to local county sheriff departments and DPS.

The tactical tracking you are referring to is reserved to those who are known to be armed / dangerous. Stop muddying the waters with what you "think" is happening and what the actual protocol is.

Agents who do not train on a consistent basis will screw up a good tac track, not to mention not all agents are the most "aware" individuals, when you are tracking someone, you are A. behind the power ball, B. the suspect has the advantage if you are not paying attention, and C. if he has a long gun, well, your vest is not going to stop shit. Until the up armor program is set, things will remain the same.

There has never been anything in writing saying that "no one other than the tactical empire" will do a tac track....give me a f-ing break.

Coming from someone who consistently bitches about f-ed up agents are and now you want them to conduct a "movement to contact" drill with someone who is armed and has the advantage? What the "tactical empire" is doing right now is what he alluding to....an advanced tactical track, utilizing specialized (yet basic) TTPs and resources to find who they are looking for.

BP Agents do a tactical track everyday if more than a couple of guys are tracking a group or dope.....

DesertSloth
14 August 2009, 18:23
This is the course we attend. Great school: http://www.fletc.gov/state-and-local/rural-policing-institute/backcountry-tactics-and-tracking-training-program-rpi/

Another unit that is highly trained is the Shadow Wolves. Attached to CBP. Native Americans.....



The Shadow Wolves are a freaking joke. Don't let them fool yourselves. They "track" in plain dirt and sand, you can teach my 6 year old to track in that stuff.

I'll put any BP Agent against the lot of them combined. Tell them to track something over uneven terrain in the real wilderness and they will as lost as a retard in a cage full of monkeys.

BadMuther
14 August 2009, 20:58
Greetings Gentlemen,
I started this thread because of a earlier thread on Tracking. I am currently teaching tracking to AD and Reserve Marines and was trained by TTOS, which was a great course. I was wondering if there were any follow on courses that would help augment the training I've already had? Besides tracking through as many different mediums as we can to build better "folders" I was wondering if there were any formal schools out there that offer anything past the basics of tactical tracking. Thanks.
Scout


Curious if one of your instructors was "Flash"?

Horned Toad
15 August 2009, 09:06
I am going to call bullshit on this one. Tactical Tracking is being taught as we speak in Nogales. Tactical tracking is being taught to local county sheriff departments and DPS.

The tactical tracking you are referring to is reserved to those who are known to be armed / dangerous. Stop muddying the waters with what you "think" is happening and what the actual protocol is.

Agents who do not train on a consistent basis will screw up a good tac track, not to mention not all agents are the most "aware" individuals, when you are tracking someone, you are A. behind the power ball, B. the suspect has the advantage if you are not paying attention, and C. if he has a long gun, well, your vest is not going to stop shit. Until the up armor program is set, things will remain the same.

There has never been anything in writing saying that "no one other than the tactical empire" will do a tac track....give me a f-ing break.

Coming from someone who consistently bitches about f-ed up agents are and now you want them to conduct a "movement to contact" drill with someone who is armed and has the advantage? What the "tactical empire" is doing right now is what he alluding to....an advanced tactical track, utilizing specialized (yet basic) TTPs and resources to find who they are looking for.

BP Agents do a tactical track everyday if more than a couple of guys are tracking a group or dope.....

Well I was replying to what someone else said about the tactical BP course, why, because out here no one has heard such a things exists. I mean itís great that there is one but I would think we might worry about training up our own folks first rather training the local sheriffs and DPS which we both no will not leave the edge of the road.

And there was stuff sent out in writing that said if its anything other than a POW to secure the scene and wait. I know I donít have anymore but some folks are digging around for a copy.

More to follow

sfmedicw9
15 August 2009, 10:19
We went to a tracking school in NJ several times in 91 and 92 that may offer you some challenges. :biggrin:

The school is run by a guy named Tom Brown. Its in western NJ on his property and from what Ive heard he is doing pretty good. His tracking methods are all derived from his apache mentor

the best part about his civilian courses is that he draws a lot of Hippy chicks and they have an open shower at his farm :-)

the downside (imho) is he and all of his intructors are HEAVY into the indian spritualism crap and you have to just bear it and grit your teeth. He is the one that brainwashed steven segal and turned him into an aikido hippy tree hugging cia poser

if you can find an ex sf guy named mike kancir (good guy) he is teaching somewhere too - maybe on this forum ?


tom browns school number is (908) 479-4681 if ya want it

DesertSloth
16 August 2009, 02:14
I mean it’s great that there is one but I would think we might worry about training up our own folks first rather training the local sheriffs and DPS which we both no will not leave the edge of the road.


Dude, read what I type.....TACTICAL TRACKING IS BEING TAUGHT, BY AGENTS, TO AGENTS, IN NOGALES! It is called the Tactical Awareness Course.

Just because your F'ed up station has not passed this on to you all does not mean it is not happening. You're killing me bro.

Scout_22
16 August 2009, 02:15
Badmuther:
Didn't pick up any nick names but I know the guys by name if you want to PM me.
Since I started this thread I contacted some of my BP buddies and have set up some left-seat-right-seat at San Ysidro (sp) area. I got warned off Tom Brown from several sources and I think he's on Uncle Sugars no go list so that might not be a option for my team. We're also trying to contact some Rangers here in SoCal and see if we can scratch some backs.
Scout

sfmedicw9
16 August 2009, 07:54
Badmuther:
I got warned off Tom Brown from several sources and I think he's on Uncle Sugars no go list so that might not be a option for my team.
Scout

just the white man keeping the associates of the red man down :mad:

BadMuther
17 August 2009, 11:08
Badmuther:
Didn't pick up any nick names but I know the guys by name if you want to PM me.
Since I started this thread I contacted some of my BP buddies and have set up some left-seat-right-seat at San Ysidro (sp) area. I got warned off Tom Brown from several sources and I think he's on Uncle Sugars no go list so that might not be a option for my team. We're also trying to contact some Rangers here in SoCal and see if we can scratch some backs.
Scout

Curious what Rangers in socal since that's my old stomping grounds. PM sent.

Mgo79
17 August 2009, 19:41
We went to a tracking school in NJ several times in 91 and 92 that may offer you some challenges. :biggrin:

The school is run by a guy named Tom Brown. Its in western NJ on his property and from what Ive heard he is doing pretty good. His tracking methods are all derived from his apache mentor

the best part about his civilian courses is that he draws a lot of Hippy chicks and they have an open shower at his farm :-)

the downside (imho) is he and all of his intructors are HEAVY into the indian spritualism crap and you have to just bear it and grit your teeth. He is the one that brainwashed steven segal and turned him into an aikido hippy tree hugging cia poser

if you can find an ex sf guy named mike kancir (good guy) he is teaching somewhere too - maybe on this forum ?


tom browns school number is (908) 479-4681 if ya want it

Mike is teaching with David Scott Donelan last I knew. (TTOS) He ran the MTT I went through at MCMWTC in...06?. I know TTOS has follow on courses in their curriculum. (Urban, Instructor courses, etc.) Why not start there? The Army has, its what the course in Huachuca is based off of.

Mgo79
17 August 2009, 19:56
In addition a few years ago, The Mountain Sniper Course was tasked with the tracking portion of of a Scout Snipers MOS progression and it is currently being written or already done in the POI. Its been taught a number of years there, and has been used in Iraq and Astan to success in limited capacity. Based off of TTOS. For what its worth..

Gunpoint
17 August 2009, 20:38
The Shadow Wolves are a freaking joke. Don't let them fool yourselves. They "track" in plain dirt and sand, you can teach my 6 year old to track in that stuff.

I'll put any BP Agent against the lot of them combined. Tell them to track something over uneven terrain in the real wilderness and they will as lost as a retard in a cage full of monkeys.

Definitely have some PT issues in that unit...

INFIDEL
20 August 2009, 07:19
FYI,
USBP has a national full time tactical team (BORTAC) based out of Fort Bliss, El Paso that have taught tactical tracking to various agencies as well as OCONUS conducting FID type missions. My .02

Virgil Tibbs
20 August 2009, 07:40
Thanks for the input Infidel, post an intro and check the forum rules.

nofear
10 September 2009, 21:39
I know nothing about "tactical tracking" so want to ask a question:

The TTOS school - Does that cover skills that would be beneficial to Law Enforcement groups, with those skills allowing someone to track a suspect to such an extent where the tracking would be recognised as "evidence" in court?

Reason I ask is one of their graduates, who apparently works for the TTOS Mobile Training Team, (I may have the terminology wrong), is trying to conduct training here in Australia. He is stating that the tracking skills taught would hold up as evidence in court.

I know there's a difference between US and our courts - I'm just after common sense responses here.

Thanks...

Gunpoint
11 September 2009, 04:34
Yes, a main theme in TTOS LE courses is just that...

As far as whether or not it would "hold up" in court...it is potentially admissable. There are no hard and fast rules on track evidence in most courts. All the common sense stuff applies - the detail captured, credibility of the officer, qualifications and training and experience of the officer, and whether or not there are identifiable details (shoe print types, size match, pronounced gait characteristics, etc)

I have seen it used and used it myself in a case in Federal Court.

nofear
11 September 2009, 18:48
Thanks for that.

mbroich
11 September 2009, 19:09
Badmuther:
Didn't pick up any nick names but I know the guys by name if you want to PM me.
Since I started this thread I contacted some of my BP buddies and have set up some left-seat-right-seat at San Ysidro (sp) area. I got warned off Tom Brown from several sources and I think he's on Uncle Sugars no go list so that might not be a option for my team. We're also trying to contact some Rangers here in SoCal and see if we can scratch some backs.
Scout

Can you let me know who you came up with for further training? I went to TTOS and we've been working with the hunter x-file pdf from the marines to use as a guidline for the rest of the guys we couldn't send to Huachuca. One guy here has personally paid to go through Tom Brown's courses and is up to the Scout level, but there's an earthy tree hugging feel to the material he puts out unlike the sneak up and shoot 'em in the face that Mike always said.