Calls to increase the school day

[0699]

Anyone heard about this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090927/ap_on_re_us/us_more_school

Seems like we're trying to make our kids life even tougher. My kids are very busy during the summer with camp & home activities, so I don't see cutting into their summer vacation; that's the only time they get to be kids. During the school year: my daughter is in her senior year, getting college apps submitted, and working as a life guard. My son plays in two football leagues (school & county rec league) and he's on the go from 0600 when he gets up until 2230 ish when he hits the rack. If their school days were any longer, something else would have to give. Hell, sometimes I think my kids lives are too busy, but it's by their choice, not mine.

Your thoughts? Should we increase the school day or shorten summer vacation?

[jane]

But it takes longer to teach the kids all the rest of the stanzas to the Beloved Leader song.

[Lannister]

... [brevity edit]...

Your thoughts? Should we increase the school day or shorten summer vacation?

Neither...

Summer vacation was a Agrarian Concept. The kids needed to be home to help at harvest time. Now that MOST of us don't live on farm, I personally believe that we should do away with "Summer Vacation" and kids should be in school year round.

2 of my 3 kids have gone to a year round school from 1st grade until Junior year (the third is in a year round school and will be a junior in 4 years)...

Their "jobs" during this time is to LEARN... ("extra"curricular is just that "EXTRA")...

They got ~ 10 days between semesters but attended all year round from 0830-1445. They did the normal things (Football, Soccer, Dance, Martial Arts, Music, Acting, etc.) AFTER 3pm.

We also limited their activities by making them choose 1 activity at a time.
As we didn't think it was/is fair to the other kids or us adults to spend ALL of our downtime in the vehicle running from practice, rehersal, event to practice, rehersal, event...

There were studies done about the stress caused by overscheduled (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=The+Overscheduled+Child&ei=utf-8&fr=b1ie7) kids activities.

If all went well... then they attended a regular school schedule (Sep-June) for their Junior and Senior years... and worked a job < 16hrs during the school year and up to 32hrs during the summer (to pay for their auto insurance and gas ) unless their grades slipped....;)

[Flying Pig]

My kids are in private school. School is from 0830-1430. And they go to school Tues-Fri. They have Sat Sun Mon off. They rarely EVER have homework and they test in the top 85% of their grade levels compared to the rest of the nation.

[smp52]

My school in India had 5 to 6 week summer breaks with a two week vacation in winter. Though the school year had more single day holidays, so it may balance out. Days went from 800 to 1500 or so, depending on which grade you were in.

Kids are pretty adaptable as there is no "one" way to pass on the education; it's more difficult for the parents to adjust IMHO. I always liked classes that were on the smaller side as I got more one on one time with teachers, rather than the larger ones which are similar to a freshman lecture in a large state college.

[s1chmoe]

Our school went from 0845 until 1530, with summer vacation. The teachers back then taught, without fear of retribution if a certain number of students got low test scores, so we learned a lot more then. Standardized testing is IMO not a good thing and rewards teachers for passing students instead of teaching them to the point of making the class learn and push themselves, grades probably were not as high as now, but the students were probably smarter.

[Mav]

I like having my kids home during the summer. It gives us the ability to see the world around us, without the constant jar of school, etc. I loved having them home with me this summer. They learn reading, writing, and 'rithmatic at school. They learn life at home. I life having that time.

If it works for ya, do it. ;)

I, personally, like my summers with them, though... sooo I don't think it's a good idea on our side ;)

[ET1/ss nuke]

When they are all in mandatory attendance at the Komsomol boarding school, we won't have to worry about vacations anymore.

[Greenhat]

Kids in the U.S. spend more hours in school (1,146 instructional hours per year) than do kids in the Asian countries that persistently outscore the U.S. on math and science tests — Singapore (903), Taiwan (1,050), Japan (1,005) and Hong Kong (1,013). That is despite the fact that Taiwan, Japan and Hong Kong have longer school years (190 to 201 days) than does the U.S. (180 days).

Sounds like it isn't the amount of time in school as how well the time is used (also, the article fails to address cultural issues and the fact that children in Singapore, Taiwan, Japan and Hong Kong often have additional private tutoring in addition to their regular schooling).

[Ex-PH]

Does the administration think these teacher's are going to work more hours for the same money? California can't afford to pay the teachers for the hours they work now.

[Kip]

Does the administration think these teacher's are going to work more hours for the same money? California can't afford to pay the teachers for the hours they work now.

I remember that teachers here were having to buy their own pencils and things for the classroom because the school wouldn't pay for them or something. They were having their students bring in extra supplies.

That is definitely one flaw in this plan.

[Greenhat]

Does the administration think these teacher's are going to work more hours for the same money? California can't afford to pay the teachers for the hours they work now.

The Feds will print more money...

The current administration has made it obvious that budget constraints are never to be a concern (the previous administration was bad, this one is worse).

[low country]

Does the administration think these teacher's are going to work more hours for the same money? California can't afford to pay the teachers for the hours they work now.

In my AO, teachers are being laid off left and right. So let me see if I get this straight, more hours equals longer days so more operational costs. Where will these monies come from......TAX INCREASE More hours means more pay for teachers. Where will this money come from...... TAX INCREASE or more layoffs and have 50 kids in a classroom.

For the record, all I saw as longer days with no mention of an "alternate schedule."

IMO, another great idea:cool:

[Longrifle]

Schools are becoming agents of the Nannystate. We have buses arriving at 0700, serve breakfast and lunch, hold after-school "tutoring" until 1630, and then bus them home. Instead of homeroom, we have "advisory" and teach life skills, family counseling, and share lessons learned. As the family unit continues to disintegrate, the public school system takes on an ever-increasing burden of responsibility to become the de facto surrogate role of in loco parentis.

The public school system of today is vastly different from that of twenty years ago. Year-round school is the logical next step.

Think about it.

And be ashamed.

[BOFH]

Douchebaggery. Plain and simple. Only reason to send your kids to MORE school is if you're using the school as a babysitter. Kids in America are dumb, not because they don't spend enough time in school...but because the time they do spend in school is not WELL spent. Hell, for that matter, it has a lot to do with parental involvement when they are NOT in school. Personally, I'm really leaning toward the idea of home-schooling my kids...


My $0.02

[CarnageWhiskey]

In my AO, teachers are being laid off left and right. So let me see if I get this straight, more hours equals longer days so more operational costs. Where will these monies come from......TAX INCREASE More hours means more pay for teachers. Where will this money come from...... TAX INCREASE or more layoffs and have 50 kids in a classroom.

For the record, all I saw as longer days with no mention of an "alternate schedule."

IMO, another great idea:cool:

Not to mention that with all the new teachers that would need to be hired the teachers unions would become much more powerful.

The teachers unions always get what they want.
The teachers aren't going to take a pay cut unless they get something else in return like vacation time.
They push for taxes for student supplies which is then used for teacher payment.

So if this year around school happens there will be two teacher a year. The first for 5 and a half months and after that another teacher takes over for the last 5 and a half months months.
11 months of actual school because of state holidays, etc.
In the end it will cost more for a longer year of mediocre schooling.

Making the school year longer doesn't address the problem of why students from public schools suck.

[Bulwar]

Our school went from 0845 until 1530, with summer vacation. The teachers back then taught, without fear of retribution if a certain number of students got low test scores, so we learned a lot more then. Standardized testing is IMO not a good thing and rewards teachers for passing students instead of teaching them to the point of making the class learn and push themselves, grades probably were not as high as now, but the students were probably smarter.

add the occasional teacher who taught students how to THINK, and I'm right there with you. Seems it's all designed to memorize/repeat these days.

[poison]

I'll be keeping my kids in the alternative private school, which believes in minimal homework. I was homeschooled.

If they can't teach kids what is needed in 7-8 hours, 9 months out of the year, they need to try another tack. More hours aren't necessary.

[GackMan]

Summer vacation was a Agrarian Concept. The kids needed to be home to help at harvest time. Now that MOST of us don't live on farm, I personally believe that we should do away with "Summer Vacation" and kids should be in school year round.

I agree. It is an archaic system that isn't needed and doesn't make any sense.

Why can't kids retain knowledge? Maybe because they take 3 months off every year? If I took 90 days of vacation a year with over 60 days on one chunk I'd forget parts of my job too.

They could cut those in half and have 4 school semesters per year witht the kids taking a total of 6 weeks of vacation... a 2x2 week winter/summer break and 2x1 week spring/fall breaks.

Although that alone wouldn't really fix a lot of the endemic problems with the lowest comon denominator education system we have, I think it should be included in any "education reform" packages being considered. At a minimum, it solves the challenge of the total number of school days per child in schoo. Although, I'm not sure why the total number of school days is such an important metric; the schools don't seem nearly as interested in performance as they are time.

[xxlranger]

As a cop, I love the idea.
Summer is horrible. The kids are home alone because the parent works (yes, I said "parent". I work in the hood), leaving them lots of unsupervised time to break into houses.

Keeping the Future of America occupied year round would be fantastic.

Teachers Union will never go for it, though. When is the last time a union agreed to work MORE hours?

[Lancer33]

Kids in the U.S. spend more hours in school (1,146 instructional hours per year) than do kids in the Asian countries that persistently outscore the U.S. on math and science tests — Singapore (903), Taiwan (1,050), Japan (1,005) and Hong Kong (1,013). That is despite the fact that Taiwan, Japan and Hong Kong have longer school years (190 to 201 days) than does the U.S. (180 days).

One of the reasons this is true is that in these countries there is an expectation that the student will perform, and to a much greater extent than in the U.S. a disciplanary system that helps insure those expectations are met.

[smp52]

Sounds like it isn't the amount of time in school as how well the time is used (also, the article fails to address cultural issues and the fact that children in Singapore, Taiwan, Japan and Hong Kong often have additional private tutoring in addition to their regular schooling).

I had private tutoring in India as well. I hated it because I was never a memorization type of guy - if it didn't click repeating it mutliple times didn't mean squat.

The best tutors I had were the ones that never gave homework and actually taught me how to think, or ensured my tutoring time was occupied 100%. They stated up front that no homework would be assigned, but if 100% was not given during class time, they wouldn't teach me. My school was a good private school (pennies on the cost of an American private school), but these tutors in 7th and 10th grades were the ones that really helped me in mathematics. I went from middle of the pack/average to close to the top those years.

[0699]

In case it wasn't obvious, I'm against increasing the school day or lengthening the school year. My kids get enough school as it is. Too many other experiences in the world outside of school they need to have. We try to make everything a learning experience. Hell, cleaning guns teaches action & reaction...

[KidA]

All it would result in is more indoctrination to becoming little touchy-feely Nancies with no critical thinking or common sense skills.

All that matters is what you feel. A logical argument buts against a feeling argument? The logic loses because you hurt the other person's feelings.

[TJ2JM1783]

Schools are becoming agents of the Nannystate. We have buses arriving at 0700, serve breakfast and lunch, hold after-school "tutoring" until 1630, and then bus them home. Instead of homeroom, we have "advisory" and teach life skills, family counseling, and share lessons learned. As the family unit continues to disintegrate, the public school system takes on an ever-increasing burden of responsibility to become the de facto surrogate role of in loco parentis.

The public school system of today is vastly different from that of twenty years ago. Year-round school is the logical next step.

Think about it.

And be ashamed.

So true. Thank you.

(We all are going to pay for it, one way or another. It is not going to work though. They tried the Saturday school and it did not work. Of course, the issue was learning not crime prevention. So, public schools are becoming "mini-prisons for kids"? I feel for the teachers.)

[Believeraz]

I don't like education being treated as a national policy issue. Education is a local community and state level issue. It is not the business of the federal government.

[GackMan]

I don't like education being treated as a national policy issue. Education is a local community and state level issue. It is not the business of the federal government.

Excellent point:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

I don't think the DOE will be abolished any time soon...

It would be interesting to see how individual states do compared to international standards versus the aggregated US ranking/rating.

[RGR.Montcalm]

My kids did the 'standard' school years throughout their elementary through high school days- no issues with kids home during the summer.

However, should we go the 'year round' school methodology, there are a couple of send and third term order effects that some may not be thinking of.

1) Vacations- 2months on/2 weeks off would mean that just about all employers would have to be flexible enought to allow a significant amount (approx 25%) of their employees to take vacation at the same time, whether it's during the spring, summer, fall, or winter break.

2) Holiday periods- I can forsee that the two week period from 19 DEC- 2 JAN would be a time that would be targeted for 'winter break/holiday break'. For retail, its the 'make or break' time of the year, however, it would conflict with the school holiday cycle. Add to this the traditional Thanksgiving 4 day weekend that would have to be shortened to a single day.

Here's the 'logical' break down with 10 weeks (60 days)/3weeks (25 days)'

7 JAN-7 MAR-school
8 MAR-30 MAR APR-break- weather sucks
31 MAR- 29 MAY school
30 MAY-23 JUN break
24 JUN- 22 SEP- school
23 SEP-14 OCT break
15 OCT- 12 DEC school
13 DEC-7 JAN Break


Of course there could be adjustment but does anyone want to live this schedule???

[Longrifle]

This has nothing to do with education. It is about control, disguised as education.

If it were about education, they'd start the repair process by addressing discipline.

[GackMan]

Kids are off in summer to work in fields, which they don't do anymore.

So why keep that system? Especially if it is detrimental to the kids education?

Because that is what we're used to?

We should be against it because the president if for it?

It seems to make sense for several reasons that have to do with the quality of the kids education and their ability to learn. I think anyone who is concened about the control issue probably doesn't have their kids in public school.

It would just be different... people don't know why, they just don't like change.

None of the inconvenience of the new vacation would be anyworse than the current system that has most employers running a skeleton crew all summer.

Check out this article: http://correspondents.theatlantic.com/conor_clarke/2009/06/why_we_should_get_rid_of_summer_vacation.php

Also this paper from 2007... before the President was even elected, let alone discussing education reform: http://www.asanet.org/galleries/default-file/April07ASRFeature.pdf

[Longrifle]

I think anyone who is concened about the control issue probably doesn't have their kids in public school.
The control I referred to is not from parents. It's from the gubmint.

I'll say it again - If discipline is taken care of first, all other issues fall into place. Ask any teacher . . .

Administrators are more about methodologies, the latest data, trends, and scaffolding techniques, and whose name is on the buzz list for having written a paperback purporting to show the latest and greatest Best Way to Enlightenment in Education.

We don't need more time in school. We need better quality time in school.

And a whole lot less governmental input, either state or national.