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MakoZeroSix
30 September 2009, 09:21
I can't remember the last time I found myself totally agreeing with David Brooks. But I think he hits it on the head here. These are the things we should be focusing on, not the peripheral issues that the right and left are constantly battling over.



The Next Culture War


“Human nature, in no form of it, could ever bear prosperity,” John Adams wrote in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, warning against the coming corruption of his country.

Yet despite its amazing wealth, the United States has generally remained immune to this cycle. American living standards surpassed European living standards as early as 1740. But in the U.S., affluence did not lead to indulgence and decline.

That’s because despite the country’s notorious materialism, there has always been a countervailing stream of sound economic values. The early settlers believed in Calvinist restraint. The pioneers volunteered for brutal hardship during their treks out west. Waves of immigrant parents worked hard and practiced self-denial so their children could succeed. Government was limited and did not protect people from the consequences of their actions, thus enforcing discipline and restraint.

When economic values did erode, the ruling establishment tried to restore balance. After the Gilded Age, Theodore Roosevelt (who ventured west to counteract the softness of his upbringing) led a crackdown on financial self-indulgence. The Protestant establishment had many failings, but it was not decadent. The old WASPs were notoriously cheap, sent their children to Spartan boarding schools, and insisted on financial sobriety.

Over the past few years, however, there clearly has been an erosion in the country’s financial values. This erosion has happened at a time when the country’s cultural monitors were busy with other things. They were off fighting a culture war about prayer in schools, “Piss Christ” and the theory of evolution. They were arguing about sex and the separation of church and state, oblivious to the large erosion of economic values happening under their feet.

Evidence of this shift in values is all around. Some of the signs are seemingly innocuous. States around the country began sponsoring lotteries: government-approved gambling that extracts its largest toll from the poor. Executives and hedge fund managers began bragging about compensation packages that would have been considered shameful a few decades before. Chain restaurants went into supersize mode, offering gigantic portions that would have been considered socially unacceptable to an earlier generation.

Other signs are bigger. As William Galston of the Brookings Institution has noted, in the three decades between 1950 and 1980, personal consumption was remarkably stable, amounting to about 62 percent of G.D.P. In the next three decades, it shot upward, reaching 70 percent of G.D.P. in 2008.

During this period, debt exploded. In 1960, Americans’ personal debt amounted to about 55 percent of national income. By 2007, Americans’ personal debt had surged to 133 percent of national income.

Over the past few months, those debt levels have begun to come down. But that doesn’t mean we’ve re-established standards of personal restraint. We’ve simply shifted from private debt to public debt. By 2019, federal debt will amount to an amazing 83 percent of G.D.P. (before counting the costs of health reform and everything else). By that year, interest payments alone on the federal debt will cost $803 billion.

These may seem like dry numbers, mostly of concern to budget wonks. But these numbers are the outward sign of a values shift. If there is to be a correction, it will require a moral and cultural movement.

Our current cultural politics are organized by the obsolete culture war, which has put secular liberals on one side and religious conservatives on the other. But the slide in economic morality afflicted Red and Blue America equally.

If there is to be a movement to restore economic values, it will have to cut across the current taxonomies. Its goal will be to make the U.S. again a producer economy, not a consumer economy. It will champion a return to financial self-restraint, large and small.

It will have to take on what you might call the lobbyist ethos — the righteous conviction held by everybody from AARP to the agribusinesses that their groups are entitled to every possible appropriation, regardless of the larger public cost. It will have to take on the self-indulgent popular demand for low taxes and high spending.

A crusade for economic self-restraint would have to rearrange the current alliances and embrace policies like energy taxes and spending cuts that are now deemed politically impossible. But this sort of moral revival is what the country actually needs.

Lagnaippe
30 September 2009, 13:35
An economic values shift? It's not economic, it's selfishness, overindulgence and greed. As soon as we became a people who worshipped ourselves and put our wants above our ability to pay, the "shift" occurred. I'm not just talking about on the individual level, either. It's funny how so many 4-person families "need" 3000 square feet, 4 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms of living space. Those same families over-extend themselves and cannot afford to pay their bills. They also "need" the fancy cars, clothes, sports and private lessons. The greed illness is systemic, institutionalized, and now a cultural norm!

...ok, done ranting but still the operative word is "selfish" not "economic values." More is fine...when you can afford it physically or finacially. But our reality is that even when we can't afford IT we get IT anyway...cuz we "need" it.

For instance-- I still need a black BMW M5 because I need to get home fast if my kid gets hurt. REALLY... I need it!!!!!



...really, I do.

HighDragLowSpeed
30 September 2009, 13:51
I always chuckle when I hear friends complaining about not having enough money when they and their spouse both drive new cars - new cars that likely pull $1k/month from their checks and seem to get replaced every 2-3 years.

Living outside of the US and on the local economy really opens one's eyes about how marketing in the US drives a perceived need for everything from houses and cars to restaurants and food.

Spinner
30 September 2009, 13:59
There was a piece in one of the weeklies a couple of decades ago, Newsweek I think, that profiled the community of Springfield, OH.

It covered the usual themes of small town values, and extolled the thrift and economic focus of the town's leading employer, whose name I forget.

It was a manufacturing firm, one of the old school types that did everything in house, to include a design and drafting shop. When one of the draftsmen's pencils reached a point where it was too difficult to use anymore, he reported to the owner of the company, who would reach into his drawer and pull out a metal extension that could be screwed into the bottom of the pencil.

When the draftsman reached the point where he simply couldn't get anymore use out of it, he reported back to the owner again, and exchanged the completely used pencil and its metal extension for a brand new pencil.

One of our problems is that we've become a throw away society. You don't see this kind of thrift, as anal as it sounds, anymore.

MakoZeroSix
30 September 2009, 14:16
It covered the usual themes of small town values, and extolled the thrift and economic focus of the town's leading employer, whose name I forget.

It was a manufacturing firm, one of the old school types that did everything in house, to include a design and drafting shop. When one of the draftsmen's pencils reached a point where it was too difficult to use anymore, he reported to the owner of the company, who would reach into his drawer and pull out a metal extension that could be screwed into the bottom of the pencil.

When the draftsman reached the point where he simply couldn't get anymore use out of it, he reported back to the owner again, and exchanged the completely used pencil and its metal extension for a brand new pencil.

One of our problems is that we've become a throw away society. You don't see this kind of thrift, as anal as it sounds, anymore.

Well, I'm against senseless greed and living beyond one's means, but I think your example is extreme.

It's one thing to be thrifty; it's another to just be a cheap bastard.

TJ2JM1783
30 September 2009, 14:24
IMO paragraphs 3 and 4 contradict his statements/hypothesis/conclusions reached in paragraph 5.

On a small scale, I think he is right about American society lacking a value system which has as its mantra "Don't spend more than you have."

Reduce, reuse, recycle. Solid ideas.

(I think people have a right to be greedy, if they want. And, I don't think greed is the cause of the current economic problem.)

smp52
30 September 2009, 14:46
Living outside of the US and on the local economy really opens one's eyes about how marketing in the US drives a perceived need for everything from houses and cars to restaurants and food.

Concur 100%.

Spinner
30 September 2009, 15:05
Well, I'm against senseless greed and living beyond one's means, but I think your example is extreme.

It's one thing to be thrifty; it's another to just be a cheap bastard.

Like I said, pretty anal, but you'd be surprised how little things like that add up when it comes to your bottom line in the ledger. When you look at it from a macro angle, with large economies of scale, it adds up to a lot.

Of course, I'm a guy who cuts the top off tubes of toothpaste to get a few more applications out of them, and use my Meijer grocery bags as garbage bags. That's just a couple of my cheap bastard tricks. :biggrin:

MakoZeroSix
30 September 2009, 15:19
Like I said, pretty anal, but you'd be surprised how little things like that add up when it comes to your bottom line in the ledger. When you look at it from a macro angle, with large economies of scale, it adds up to a lot.


I might not have a problem with it if my boss just gave me a metal thing to put the pencil on when it got ground to a nub. But having to "report" to him not only when the pencil wore down to get the metal thing, but then again once it was totally gone, is insane.

I'd have reported to him that "You're a fucking control freak, and a cheap weirdo." and then promptly quit, no doubt getting paid more money at the next job. :cool:

smp52
30 September 2009, 15:20
Like I said, pretty anal, but you'd be surprised how little things like that add up when it comes to your bottom line in the ledger. When you look at it from a macro angle, with large economies of scale, it adds up to a lot.

Something like that though would have to balanced against actual flow/through put of the deliverable.

What is the cost for having a blunt pencil in quality of drafting and repeat trips to the manager? If that downtime doesn't matter, then its kosher I guess. If that impedes the flow of business to where your ROI is being damaged by "wasted" time, the manager needs to figure out how to lean the process. Can a simple wooden gage be provided to let the drafter know when it is OK to ask for a new pencil? An extension provided at his/her desk, so you don't have to get up and ask for one? It's an extreme example with very other information provided, so it isn't good/bad.

It isn't as clear as save a penny at one location, will result in lower bottom line costs. Actually, its this type of philosophy that has resulted in our manufacturing becoming poorer in quality and higher cost.

We absolutely are a wasteful group, no doubt about that. But we're also short sighted, which helps induce more waste. Either way, I agree with your general point of being slightly frugal rather than wasteful.

FroggyRuminations
30 September 2009, 15:25
The United States ought not be embarrassed or chastened for its economic success. The key insight that Brooks stumbles into is this:That’s because despite the country’s notorious materialism, there has always been a countervailing stream of sound economic values. The early settlers believed in Calvinist restraint. The pioneers volunteered for brutal hardship during their treks out west. Waves of immigrant parents worked hard and practiced self-denial so their children could succeed. Government was limited and did not protect people from the consequences of their actions, thus enforcing discipline and restraint.I am very deeply in contact with the financial world as a result of my commercial real estate business, and as a result it is clear to me that we may very well be heading into another steeper leg down in the general economy. Evidence of this (anecdotal but not insignificant) can be seen on Wall Street where the big time players have recognized the structural weakness of the financial system, which they created with the government's help, and they are stacking their chips up (high risk deals and big bonus') in anticipation of the house coming down around them.

Understand this, contrary to popular belief, "big business" isn't a cabal of right wing, blue blood, anti-tax, anti-govt. greed mongers. It is quite the opposite. The big boys are all lefties who are more than happy to have the govt. all up in their business' because the more regulations and taxes the govt. puts on business, the more protected from competition the big boys become. Undercapitalized, entrepreneurial upstarts are barred from entering the big leagues because of the regulation/taxation that the govt. gladly increases year over year.

Meanwhile, this govt./business elite are free to mutually feed off of each other and by extension all of us through campaign donations, bailouts, and special rules that the little guys can't benefit from. The problem now is that they know they went too far and now they are running for the exits with as much gold as they can carry.

Standby for heavy rolls.

Spinner
30 September 2009, 15:33
I might not have a problem with it if my boss just gave me a metal thing to put the pencil on when it got ground to a nub. But having to "report" to him not only when the pencil wore down to get the metal thing, but then again once it was totally gone, is insane.

I'd have reported to him that "You're a fucking control freak, and a cheap weirdo." and then promptly quit, no doubt getting paid more money at the next job. :cool:

I've met very few bosses who aren't control freaks to some degree. Like I said, that's an extreme, but the wastefullness that goes on everyday in this country is on the far end of the other spectrum. And it's hurting us.

Something like that though would have to balanced against actual flow/through put of the deliverable.

What is the cost for having a blunt pencil in quality of drafting and repeat trips to the manager? If that downtime doesn't matter, then its kosher I guess. If that impedes the flow of business to where your ROI is being damaged by "wasted" time, the manager needs to figure out how to lean the process. Can a simple wooden gage be provided to let the drafter know when it is OK to ask for a new pencil? An extension provided at his/her desk, so you don't have to get up and ask for one? It's an extreme example with very other information provided, so it isn't good/bad.

It isn't as clear as save a penny at one location, will result in lower bottom line costs. Actually, its this type of philosophy that has resulted in our manufacturing becoming poorer in quality and higher cost.

We absolutely are a wasteful group, no doubt about that. But we're also short sighted, which helps induce more waste. Either way, I agree with your general point of being slightly frugal rather than wasteful.

Good point, but as far as saving pennies at one location or another, some manufacturers have instituted measures that seem trivial, but in the end cut costs substantially by making the best use of the resources they have on hand.

You're right as far as determining whether or not the benefit of replacing something like a pencil nub might not be negated by the cost of the time spent replacing it.

In this case, I believe the employees were required to come to the boss on their lunch break. :biggrin:

I'm just making that shit up, I have no idea how much time it took...

Hot Mess
30 September 2009, 18:21
marketing in the US drives a perceived need for everything from houses and cars to restaurants and food.

No need to go any further, you just hit the nail on the head;)

Trailboss
30 September 2009, 22:21
I have heard rumblings of this on my own as well...The sub-prime mortgage debacle we just went through was primarily the family home market....what I am hearing now is that *another* debacle is on the horizon: this one has the same mechanism, but it is *commercial* real estate that is going south...lots of empty buildings, more every day. Rent not getting paid, mortgage payments suffering...get ready for the next bailout.



The United States ought not be embarrassed or chastened for its economic success. The key insight that Brooks stumbles into is this:I am very deeply in contact with the financial world as a result of my commercial real estate business, and as a result it is clear to me that we may very well be heading into another steeper leg down in the general economy. Evidence of this (anecdotal but not insignificant) can be seen on Wall Street where the big time players have recognized the structural weakness of the financial system, which they created with the government's help, and they are stacking their chips up (high risk deals and big bonus') in anticipation of the house coming down around them.