Attack on remote Afghan outposts kills 8 US troops

[tnkspe119]

First of all, RIP to those fallen Soldiers! Prayers to the families and friends.
Secondly, as the article states, this is the second time this has happened in the same area, and this has happened in other areas as well just not on this scale. This fucking pisses me off as i have family there, as well as all the other Soldiers there. I guess my question is, when are we going to say enough and pound the shit out of these assholes?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091004/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan

[kpel308]

Damn.

[SOTB]

And the winning strategy is to pull back and focus upon larger pop centers. I mean FOBs. No, I mean "larger pop centers." This strategy is nothing like pulling back to FOBs. Because larger pop centers have roads, and stores, and stuff. And aren't like FOBs at all.

And we are losing guys for WHAT reason? Oh right -- because we want to deny training areas for AQ and others. And 'cause we want to bring the right to go to school to Afghan girls. And democracy.

RIP Soldiers....

[TPT_1113]

RIP brothers.

[CDRODA396]

Rest In Peace Warriors and Thank You for Your Service and Your Sacrifice.

[tip001]

Very tragic. Rest In Peace Soldiers :frown:

[18Dwife]

RIP :(

[paratroop77]

RIP

[eyezweat]

RIP to all fallen warriors.

The gloves need to come off.
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but ROE and force numbers need to be modified to meet the recommendations of Gen Mc. and his troops. Give them what they need to do the job that you(Admin) task them with.

[BKK]

RIP, I am sure they gave those 300 Taliban hell.

[AJG]

RIP

[Lannister]

... [brevity edit]...

And we are losing guys for WHAT reason? Oh right -- because we want to deny training areas for AQ and others. And 'cause we want to bring the right to go to school to Afghan girls. And democracy.

RIP Soldiers....

I here ya bro...
But we know as soon as the current Admin say "to hell with this... what are our guys dying for"... and try to pull them out to stop the madness... PLENTY here are gonna then cry foul....;)

Kind of a "damned if we stay... damned if we leave"..:(

[heavyguns1/1]

RIP
Managing the GWOT doesn't seem to interest this administration. No faith in the civilian leadership.
I really question the loyalty of the administration and the current majority party.

[Boats]

RIP, Troops. Your bravery will never be forgotten.

[literategrunt]

RIP

[Titleist]

RIP
Managing the GWOT doesn't seem to interest this administration. No faith in the civilian leadership.
I really question the loyalty of the administration and the current majority party.

RIP


I found this essay interesting, especially from a civilians perspective. I would be very interested in this forums feedback. I have lived in a muslim country and have an understanding of their nature (power and force is repected, negotiations and aquiesence, not so much).

McChrystal's Folly

We have been listening to General McChrystal for some time now. His doctrine has become his mantra; integrate, integrate, integrate and, oh yeah protect the 'innocent' civilians - at all cost. The problem is the cost is the lives of the sons and daughters of the United States of America. I don't mean to sound like I am disregarding the contributions and sacrifices of other NATO Nations but frankly; they aren't our concern. The welfare of soldiers from other nations should be the concern of those nations whom they represent.

The General's premise is that there are factions that are easily identified as friend or foe and that we need to defend the defenseless innocents of Afghanistan - at all cost, to assure their willing cooperation in the future and, along the way, build a whole new infrastructure for them. This makes for nice dreams but is just that; a dream. He cannot point to a single instance of general support for a non-Islamic force, on Afghan territory in the entire history of Afghanistan. All one might be able to do is find isolated incidents of occasional support in some remote corners of the operation of the time.

The fact is that all parties within the borders of Afghanistan agree with one another on the only level that really matters here and that is religious ideology. They are all Islamic and while you can make the case that some are more loyal to the tenets of the faith than others, the fact remains that they have more in common with one another than they do with the 'Great Devil from the West'. When they do show support or at least cooperation it is a matter of convenience. All they understand is force. If you are the strong man in the back yard they will support you. If the Taliban has the upper hand (controls the battle space), they will support them.

The General's premise is at least naive if not irresponsible especially where he is more than prepared to test his theory with the lives of our sons and daughters. Sorry General; unacceptable!

Sometimes the best way to look at something is to compare it to an analogy. I have been in the woodworking trade for quite a number of years and the work we have engaged in and completed is varied. At the moment we are building a Timber Framed home. When you first look at the blank piece of paper that will eventually become the drawing and try to merge the desires of the customer with structural engineering requirements, it can be daunting. The truth is though that all properly detailed drawings and the buildings they eventually become, start with a single line. If you think the frame is complex, you should see all of the mechanicals that are required to heat, power and plumb the house and how they are impacted by the massive beam construction that is the hallmark of a Timber Frame. Even though there are complexities to the frame and the mechanicals that will require a great deal of thought and planning, they don't negate the importance of the greater element; the foundation. Without the foundation; the building, set on soil will eventually rot and fall.

Prosecuting a war within the borders of a country as complicated as Afghanistan is daunting to be sure. Trying to plan every element of the Operation as well as the individual responsibilities of all the resources necessary for a successful operation takes time, focus, experience, knowledge and tenacity. However; underlying all of the layers of complexity is the original mission, which is its foundation. The foundational mission in Afghanistan was given in the Prior Commander in Chief's mission statement as it was delivered to the American people eight years ago; confront and destroy Al Qaida, deny them training ground, battle space and bring to justice those who would offer them safe harbor and aid. Just like building a Timber Frame, there are many complex issues that must be addressed. True; those things which must be addressed on the battlefield are more complicated and prone to change but that is the nature of warfare. Even though there are challenges on the battlefield however, you cannot lose sight of the original mission and in this case it was clearly stated; to destroy Al Qaida and those who would harbor them.

The changes General McChrystal wants to institute change the very foundation of the operation from destruction of the forces that would do harm to the United States of America to one of safeguarding the Afghan civilian population at all cost. The General has become so mired in the complexities generated by the mission that he has forgotten mission itself. He said he no longer wants to concentrate on chasing and killing the enemy (kinetics), but instead wants to concentrate on building relationships with Afghan population?! Not only does this distract our forces from the core mission but it actually places at risk the possibility of success. The ROE issue is an example of how off track this operation now is. The ROE is intended to safeguard the population by limiting fire - all fire whether initiated by us or fired in our defense, if civilians are in the area. Close Air Support and Artillery are pretty much nonexistent for fear of collateral damage (dead and wounded civilians). The ROE in effect, further endangers our Warriors by allowing the enemy to command the battle space because they no longer have to fear reprisals. They hide among the civilian population and engage us with indemnity, endangering us and the civilians we are now suppose to be safeguarding. This self-destructive policy also allows the insurgents greater freedom to set IED's and ambushes because they are afforded greater freedom of movement. In essence we have turned over control of the battle space to the Taliban. The locals are not inclined to help us because they see the Taliban as the stronger force and the one they are likely to be stuck having to deal with long after the dust of this war has settled.

Take a look at the Defense Departments (http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/) listing of the fallen since July 1st 2009 and know that the vast majority of those combat deaths can be directly attributed to the ROE and the change in the focus of effort away from a 'chase and kill' strategy to one of protecting the populace. For those of you who want an explanation that is simpler, here it is: We were fighting a war to destroy the enemy that has made it clear they want to destroy us. We are now engaged in nation building and social engineering that assumes the beneficiaries even want what we are offering. They have had hundreds, if not thousands of years to improve their lot in life and have not seen fit to do so. Inserting ourselves in their personal and governmental affairs is both arrogant and incredibly naive. We need to get back to the business of taking care of this country's security affairs regardless of the hypotheses of this current crop of politicians and their appointees. By the way; let us remember that our Warriors are exactly that; Warriors - not peace keepers. If we need peace keepers then let the UN provide them.

This war is going to be lost on one front and one front only; at home. It is going to be lost at home because the American people are going to lose all confidence in our government's ability to prosecute this war. This is not a military problem; it is a political problem. The daydream that we are engaged in right now is just that; a daydream. It is an experiment in social engineering with a population of people who hate us ideologically and who don't want what we have. We MUST get back to the original mission as stated, to locate Al Qaida and kill them, deny them training ground, battle space and to hold those who aid them in their attempts to train and export violence accountable.

Sounds simple enough to me. Now all we have to do is remind our elected officials what they swore to protect and defend...

Semper Fidelis;
John Bernard, 1stSgt, ret

[Spinner]

RIP, and heartfelt thanks for their service and sacrifice.

[Titleist]

My apologies, totally the wrong thread. May God Bless.

[MikeC2W]

Thank you for your service, RIP brothers.

[0699]

RIP Warriors.

[Kalbo]

RIP Warriors, prayers out to family and friends.

[Absolut]

Hi, been reading the website for the last few months and thought I would sound off.

I was the previous 2 (Company level) that RIP'd a few months ago with the current unit that was hit.

First of all, RIP to those fallen Soldiers! Prayers to the families and friends.
Secondly, as the article states, this is the second time this has happened in the same area, and this has happened in other areas as well just not on this scale. This fucking pisses me off as i have family there, as well as all the other Soldiers there. I guess my question is, when are we going to say enough and pound the shit out of these assholes?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091004/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan

I believe we stay because we are committed. There was little to no insurgency in Nuristan prior to our arrival. It started simple with old Russian 107's and other spare ammo. It has grown from 2007 to 2009 now with IED's, DSHKA's, ZGU's, 200+ fighters able to mass, multiple RPG and PKM teams and highly experienced and motivated fighters properly equipped. All of this while U.S. presence has shrunk from a large majority of Nuristan province, to 15km from the COP to 1km from the COP. These fighters are not going to drop their weapons and go back to substance farming when we leave. They will rule the villages and will travel south into Kunar and continue to profit. If this happens we will loose all the trust we built, sources, and everything else. We will have to rebuild from nothing when we go back in a few years down the road. During which we will have virtually every villager infuriated due to how we handheld the situation.

From first hand experience we and the soldiers out there do not get the support they need by any means. They are surrounded by high ground at all sides, they work in a bowl and are monitored by insurgents 24/7. We often run out of crucial supplies and do not receive proper strategic assist to support the high threat. (A complete condtradiction to the Generals report which stated we consume high amounts of assets which could be used elsewhere).

A can of kick ass does need to be opened. But higher does not view this area as strategically important (hence the pullout). Thus, will dedicate the absolute minimal needed and will use remaining resources in more strategic locations.

The main issue I have with all of this is the OPSEC used by the General and his staff. They specifically released the closing date and specific locations of bases being closed. This information is then broad casted on all media channels. The only communication into Nuristan is by the radio. And I know BBC broad casted this crucial data straight into the homes of the insurgents who conducted this attack. Providing them key Open Source intelligence. I know without a doubt that broadcast initiated the planning which led to the execution of the attacks leading to the 8 Americans to be KIA.

I will get off my soap box now.
RIP Friends.

[heavyguns1/1]

Check out the main page and post your introduction before the MODs get pissed.

[Psi Brr]

Rest in peace Comrades. May your sacrifice be exceeded in memory only by the fight you gave the bastards.

[O_Pos]

RIP

Your sacrifices will not be forgotten.

[Alex F]

RIP warriors, Valhalla awaits.

[skyhawk691]

Rest In Peace Brave Warriors..
Prayers up for all concerned

[murrcrow]

SGT Josh Kirk was KIA in the attack on COP Keating. I served with Josh in Konar and Nuristan in 07 and 08 and he was a great guy; I will miss him. RIP to all Soldiers that made the sacrifice.

[Corsair]

RIP Warriors

[GST]

RIP, warriors.

[cb88]

RIP -- Prayers to the family & friends of those that were lost.

My prayers are also with two of my friends there right now -- one a great friend from HS, she said they were bunkered down last night due to attacks, and another one of my best friends for the last 5 years -- he was just home on R&R and is back there now.

[stanpunjabTrini]

RIP to those who fight for freedom!
Sadly, not enough said about the one who mentioned OPSEC within an AO.

observation only:
As much as I am about freedom, it seems that too much information is bandied about on "white sources" (TV/media) in this computer age that it is easy for the enemies to tune in to the 5,6 and 10 news and use information to plan their attacks. These news outlets (most) give location, number of troops, equipment and one sees topographical points (per the video feeds) to allow the enemy combatants to set up/plan reconnaissance and ambush of the fortified area! Maybe, it's just me but ..............

[Typhoon]

RIP Warriors. Thoughts and prayers out to those with whom they served, and to their families and friends back at home...

[agonyea]

here is a continuation of this battle:

Exclusive: Wounded U.S. Soldiers Refused to Leave Taliban Fight
Afghan Attacks: Darkness, Smoke Forced Medevac Doctors to Work by Touch

By KAREN RUSSO

KAMDESH, Afghanistan Oct. 5, 2009


ABC News' Karen Russo was the only reporter to get to the scene of this weekend's bloody firefight between U.S. troops and hundreds of Taliban insurgents when she went in on a MEDEVAC helicopter. Here is her report:

Eight U.S. troops were killed and 24 were injured in the battle.Flying into the besieged Afghan base during a nighttime firefight this weekend was a harrowing mix of overwhelming noise, stomach dropping maneuvers and shadows hurrying through the gloom.

When the chopper lifted off moments later with three wounded soldiers, it left behind others who were wounded but refused to be MEDEVACED out of the combat zone so they could return to fight with their buddies.

Fighting raged at two remote U.S. outpostsnear the Pakistan border this weekend, that left eight U.S. soldiers dead and 24 wounded. The battle was fought from Friday night through Sunday as hundreds of Taliban insurgents and their allies tried to overrun the Americans.

During the fighting, the insurgents succeeded in breaching the outer defense of the base at times before being repelled with the help of attack helicopters, fighter jets and drones. It was the bloodiest battle in a year for U.S. troops in Afghanistan.
Rest of article continues:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wounded-us-soldiers-refused-leave-taliban-fight/Story?id=8754347&page=1

[Fofo]

RIP.

[DevilDawg]

RIP....

[SOTB]

When the chopper lifted off moments later with three wounded soldiers, it left behind others who were wounded but refused to be MEDEVACED out of the combat zone so they could return to fight with their buddies....You dudes need no one to say it, but nonetheless, you are fucking studs in my book. Good on you and I hope you killed a fucking bunch of them....

[Kiowa5]

RIP you brave, brave Soldiers. And to the wounded and other Soldiers who continued that fight, you have made me beam with pride that I wear a Uniform. SOTB is right, you are fucking studs!

[burt160]

RIP SOLDIERS..

[cj]

RIP to those brave warriors and a prayer out to their families.

[wowzers]

RIP.

[CombatWombat]

SGT Josh Kirk was KIA in the attack on COP Keating. I served with Josh in Konar and Nuristan in 07 and 08 and he was a great guy; I will miss him. RIP to all Soldiers that made the sacrifice.

One of my Soldiers is escorting SGT Kirk's remains home right now. SGT Kirk was godfather to his son who also was named for Josh. By all accounts he was an outstanding man and Soldier. I am worse off for never having had the chance to meet him.

A classmate of mine is a battle captain in the 4-4 TOC and was on duty when this went down. The stuff he passed me on SIPR is pretty intense. Let's just say those boys on the COP rose to the occasion and hit the enemy hard. Very hard. They had multiple B1s rolling through dropping their entire payload in a single pass. I am sure there will be some serious valor citations out of this, particularly actions around the breach in the perimeter.

The media is reporting this as a near disaster but I don't think that's the case. The enemy massed and paid heavily for it.

SCOUTS OUT!

[CarbineM1]

Rest In Peace, Sgt Kirk

[murrcrow]

One of my Soldiers is escorting SGT Kirk's remains home right now. SGT Kirk was godfather to his son who also was named for Josh. By all accounts he was an outstanding man and Soldier. I am worse off for never having had the chance to meet him.

A classmate of mine is a battle captain in the 4-4 TOC and was on duty when this went down. The stuff he passed me on SIPR is pretty intense. Let's just say those boys on the COP rose to the occasion and hit the enemy hard. Very hard. They had multiple B1s rolling through dropping their entire payload in a single pass. I am sure there will be some serious valor citations out of this, particularly actions around the breach in the perimeter.

The media is reporting this as a near disaster but I don't think that's the case. The enemy massed and paid heavily for it.

SCOUTS OUT!

I am currently serving in P2K and I often say "this place looks like God Damn Kansas compared to Nuristan". Unless you have served there it is so difficult to fully appreciate the challenges our Soldiers have faced in the Kamdesh AO in the past four years.

[GackMan]

RIP Men.

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=13028

Staff Sgt. Vernon W. Martin, 25 of Savannah, Ga. <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>
Sgt. Justin T. Gallegos, 27, of Tucson, Ariz. <O:P></O:P>
Sgt. Joshua M. Hardt, 24, of Applegate, Calif. <O:P></O:P>
Sgt. Joshua J. Kirk, 30, of South Portland, Maine. <O:P></O:P>
Sgt. Michael P. Scusa, 22, of Villas, N.J. <O:P></O:P>
Spc. Christopher T. Griffin, 24, of Kincheloe, Mich. <O:P></O:P>
Spc. Stephan L. Mace, 21, of Lovettsville, Va.
Pfc. Kevin C. Thomson, 22, of Reno, Nev. <O:P></O:P>

[Richman]

Rest In Peace

[8Ball]

RIP, Brothers.

[mos13foxtrot]

I know this is an old thread but I served with some of these guys in Iraq. In fact one of my soldiers who was a PVT in Ramadi was a damned hero during this thing. SGT Armando Avalos. Still in touch with him and he is still in the Army. As I type they are being moved to parts unknown I hear.

3-61 Cav was added to the old 2nd BDE 2ID that had deployed from Korea to Iraq in 2004. After we were redeployed to Colorado we were reflagged to 4BDE 4ID. They reflagged the two Air Assault (1/506 and 1/503) Batts. and turned the whole brigade from Light/heavy to a full heavy brigade.

When he becomes stationary again someday I'll get Avalos to come on board here and tell us all about the Battle of Kamdesh. It is quite a story.

RIP SGT Hardt and SSGT Gallegos.

[Scotty]

RIP to all. On to Valhalla...

Scotty