Mike Rowe Works

[Max Power]

I've always thought Mike Rowe ("Dirty Jobs" among other things) was a pretty cool, down to earth, type of guy with a level head, etc.

Turns out, he's more than even that - http://www.mikeroweworks.com/2009/07/mikes-mission-video/

Thoughts? I think he makes some very valid points and is doing a good thing.

[Carl Spackler]

His voice is the narration of most shows on Discovery. He also does some commercials BUT with all that opinions are like assholes...everyone has one...including mine.

[Max Power]

His voice is the narration of most shows on Discovery. He also does some commercials BUT with all that opinions are like assholes...everyone has one...including mine.
Yeah... I have to say, I have NO idea what you're getting at...

And just to be clear, I'm not equating his narration work and all else he's done in entertainment to making his points more valid (nothing makes me more sick that people in Hollywood automatically equating their fame with their ability to speak about issues).

Nonetheless, I do believe his points/opinions are indeed valid. So, if you'd care to maybe expound a little on your very cryptic reply, that'd be great.

[Ole crusty bastard]

I have to agree with Mr. Rowe, most folks are afraid of work and will go to crazy lengths to avoid it.

[Carl Spackler]

No worries...will unencrypt...He is another talking head doing a good hollyweird job...I like him as well.:biggrin:

[DC Photog]

He's right when it comes to trade jobs, they seem to shortages. I can't help but feel that is partly to blame on the school process. I went through multiple school systems growing up and felt like college was the path you had to go on. There was never a break-break, here are the jobs out there and what you will make, not that most high school kids understand budgeting, what a house costs, car, etc. vs. a salary.

He didn't necessarily say it, but I agree that skilled workers in more manual labor jobs are being ignored in their shortages while a lot of MSM coverage or even water cooler talk has been on manufacturing jobs. I've heard "Green Collar" jobs talked about for years here. I am skeptical when people don't want to pick up a hammer or a shovel. I understand if you are totally out of work from a manufacturing job you might change jobs but the next gen is where I see the biggest disconnect.

College is a whole different topic, anecdotally seems like there are far too many Business and Poli Sci majors these days followed with Psych majors and Enigineering is declining with a lot of the physical sciences. I saw the CEO of Intel speak here not too long ago and was mentioning different cost concerns for building plants and doing research here or overseas. He had interesting numbers that most people they were hiring whether here or overseas for the company got their Masters or PHD's here but were often foreign. That we still have top notch advanced degree schools. It's just we don't have American students applying to go. The company ends up sponsoring hundreds of foreign grads from American schools to work here for Intel and in some cases repay tuition.

Long rant, Rowe's right, the focus in America has shifted a lot when it comes to all kinds of work.

[RGR.Montcalm]

In a odd sort of way, this thread dovetails into the "Disaster Preparedness" thread in the Lounge.

The unspoken joke that Mike was talking about is that the folks that are featured on 'Dirty Jobs' are much more likely to survive and thrive in the environment described in the thread. Those folks are a dying/ passing breed; too many people don't want to get their hands dirty at all.


They have skills that most Americans and many of us lack- practical knowledge and experience in the 'craftsman' trades. Most Americans IMHO would rather pay someone to do something they have no experience in (minor plumbing, carpentry, electric) that at least make an attempt at it before calling the 'professional'.

Case in point-I'll apologize now for rambling but I'll get to the point- (just ask Sharky and the others i put through RIP :biggrin:)

I can remember when air conditioners were mainly window units and heaters were either furnaces or kerosene heaters. My grandfather and father decided that they needed to know how to work on that stuff so they went to a technical night school to become certified on heating and air conditioning.

They both were Master Mechanics for both diesel and gas engines- my grandfather later was the Chief of Transportation branch at NAS JAX before he retired and my dad worked on construction equipment before he was promoted to be an equipment salesman. The equipment salesman has to be able to fix every piece of equipment that his company sold or rented to the customer.

My dad additionally was a ship's carpenter before he joined the Navy and his dad was a master carpenter in Hyannis, MA.

The upshot was that these skills were passed on to me and my brothers- except that I am NO mechanic of any type other than the very basics. Both of my brothers are- one is a diesel/gas/hydraulics guy and the other is gas and auto body.

I got the carpentry skills- I make furniture as a hobby ;). I'm a decent plumber and scared shitless electrician. I just don't like to screw around with electricity.

[RAT]

I can tell you he is spot on... With out a doubt.

Where I am right now... I see it 1st hand every day... People don't know how to work and don't think 2 steps in front of them.

I am at a loss the future does not look good.

RO!!!

[Scratchy]

I got the carpentry skills- I make furniture as a hobby ;). I'm a decent plumber and scared shitless electrician. I just don't like to screw around with electricity.

Electricity has always been the one thing I'd let my father mess with, or call an electrician.. I don't like messing with stuff I can't see.

[redhawk]

Right on!
People who turn their noses up to plumbers, welders, mechanics, custodians, and construction workers will reap what they sow. Too many people dismiss the blue collar "dirty" jobs as something that anyone can do. I've spent plenty of time doing "dirty" jobs. It makes you appreciate it when things are not dirty and not broke.

[Hopeless Civilian]

My brother in law is a self taught electrician. Never finished high school, but he did get his GED years later. He pulled down over $130,000 last year.

Never look down on a working man.

[Psi Brr]

I grew up on a farm, and if there were a dirty jobs, we did them; all of them. It's just part of life, and a part of life I'm thankful for. Being good with my hands garnered me a wife and a college education!

BTW... I make less as a college graduate than I did as a finish carpenter, or even a sheetrocker (where I made some serious $$$). My body is just too broken up to return to it, or I would.

[FroggyRuminations]

I find this guy and his concept totally ironic in that the name of his show is "Dirty Jobs". Dirty has a very negative connotation in this usage. Although he seems to be a great guy with a good idea, his lamentation about the lack of positive "icons" for labor in the US is personified by the title of his fucking show.

I have seen the man's show, and while it is clear that he is sympathetic to the cause of the working man, he misses no opportunity to ham it up for the camera by demonstrating his utter disdain and disgust for the work he is actually performing. He is literally the biggest explicit offender of the conditions which he aptly describes in the video that paint hard work in a negative light.

I totally agree with him on the substance of his project, especially regarding college vs. trades. It just seems to me that he just spent 10 minutes hammering his own thumb instead of the nail.

[MikeC2W]

Concur.




I can tell you he is spot on... With out a doubt.

Where I am right now... I see it 1st hand every day... People don't know how to work and don't think 2 steps in front of them.

I am at a loss the future does not look good.

RO!!!

[Max Power]

I find this guy and his concept totally ironic in that the name of his show is "Dirty Jobs". Dirty has a very negative connotation in this usage. Although he seems to be a great guy with a good idea, his lamentation about the lack of positive "icons" for labor in the US is personified by the title of his fucking show.

I have seen the man's show, and while it is clear that he is sympathetic to the cause of the working man, he misses no opportunity to ham it up for the camera by demonstrating his utter disdain and disgust for the work he is actually performing. He is literally the biggest explicit offender of the conditions which he aptly describes in the video that paint hard work in a negative light.

I totally agree with him on the substance of his project, especially regarding college vs. trades. It just seems to me that he just spent 10 minutes hammering his own thumb instead of the nail.

I understand what you're saying, but I think there is a valid counterpoint.

By providing the same information in a humorous fashion rather than a dry, factual manner, I do not think he is making fun of the jobs he profiles, but instead is providing good exposure to areas that most people would not normally receive in a more interesting and appealing fashion. In that way, more people are more likely to actually tune in and stay tuned in.

And, bottom line, the show is entertainment.

[MikeC2W]

Concur.

I understand what you're saying, but I think there is a valid counterpoint.

By providing the same information in a humorous fashion rather than a dry, factual manner, I do not think he is making fun of the jobs he profiles, but instead is providing good exposure to areas that most people would not normally receive in a more interesting and appealing fashion. In that way, more people are more likely to actually tune in and stay tuned in.

And, bottom line, the show is entertainment.

[FroggyRuminations]

I understand what you're saying, but I think there is a valid counterpoint.

By providing the same information in a humorous fashion rather than a dry, factual manner, I do not think he is making fun of the jobs he profiles, but instead is providing good exposure to areas that most people would not normally receive in a more interesting and appealing fashion. In that way, more people are more likely to actually tune in and stay tuned in.

And, bottom line, the show is entertainment.

Concur... ;)

And yet the irony is still there. He's a good guy doing a good show, no arguments. His initiative is valid and would prove helpful to the nation, no arguments.

But the fact that the title of his entertaining show explicitly derides the concept of his web initiative is pretty fucking ironic... and funny too. I'm surprised he didn't address that in the video, perhaps he doesn't even see it.

[Cold1]

Speaking as a man with dirty hands, we do get looked down on. It sucks to be honest with you. I do blame the new school systems for the shortage of skilled trades people. When I was in HS, 86-90, we had vocational courses. They were for the people that did not have the college option whether it was due to money or lack of desire. I was both. They taught us the basics and built upon those. In cabinet making the first think we did was learn how to read a tape measure, In auto mechanics the first thing we learned was the three things a gas engine needs to run. within two weeks of graduation I was at the recruiters office he talked me into becoming a Biomedical equipment technician (thank you SSG Thomas) I have been a blue collared, wrench turning, knukle dragging, high tech grease monkey ever since. I have not gotten rich yet but I have not been hungry a day since. Nobody wants to grow up and be a blue collar guy anymore, they are being pushed in school to go to college and become someone.

The business has changed also, use to you could work your way up the ladder, now if you dont have an advanced degree then you dont get to go up the ladder. Actually the guy fresh out of school gets the job over someone with 5 years expierience. for some reason people want to see alphabets behind there names instead of quality craftsmanship. No I am not bitter and no I have not been bumped I do have my own alphabet behind my name. I am just telling you what the recent trends are.

If you dont want a shortage of skilled laborers then start teaching them in HS again, make the title "blue collar" non deragatory, and start realizing that skilled labor is a profession with professionals that have earned the right to be called professionals and be treated like professionals.

[Gryfen-FL]

they are being pushed in school to go to college and become someoneToo true! College is being force down our throats as some sort of cure all holy grail of life. Don't get me wrong, college is good.....beer is pretty good too, but I don't try to sell it as a viable carbohydrate option. ;)

I won't speak for the others, but I've never looked at 'dirty job' in a negative light. Maybe that's because my first job was pretty dirty, maybe it's something else. Now that it's been brought up, I'm at a loss for what else the show could be called.

Our society does like to keep the dirty and unpleasant things locked in the attic. Just think of how many euphamisms we have to express bodily functions. No one wants to call a spade a spade, or face facts that life makes messes.

I think the repeated emphasis on "the messy jobs that make civilized life possible" is the best thing going to shine light on 'hard shit' that most people have never even thought of.

As far as the theatrics go....I think its entertainment for the professionals who're hosting him as much as the camera.

[Spinner]

I can tell you he is spot on... With out a doubt.

Where I am right now... I see it 1st hand every day... People don't know how to work and don't think 2 steps in front of them.

I am at a loss the future does not look good.

RO!!!

A lot of folks don't even know how to push a broom. Seriously.

I won't say I've always enjoyed doing the "dirty" work, but you know you've done a job when you're finished with it.

[Hot Mess]

Speaking as a man with dirty hands, we do get looked down on. It sucks to be honest with you. I do blame the new school systems for the shortage of skilled trades people. When I was in HS, 86-90, we had vocational courses. They were for the people that did not have the college option whether it was due to money or lack of desire. I was both. They taught us the basics and built upon those. In cabinet making the first think we did was learn how to read a tape measure, In auto mechanics the first thing we learned was the three things a gas engine needs to run. within two weeks of graduation I was at the recruiters office he talked me into becoming a Biomedical equipment technician (thank you SSG Thomas) I have been a blue collared, wrench turning, knukle dragging, high tech grease monkey ever since. I have not gotten rich yet but I have not been hungry a day since. Nobody wants to grow up and be a blue collar guy anymore, they are being pushed in school to go to college and become someone.

The business has changed also, use to you could work your way up the ladder, now if you dont have an advanced degree then you dont get to go up the ladder. Actually the guy fresh out of school gets the job over someone with 5 years expierience. for some reason people want to see alphabets behind there names instead of quality craftsmanship. No I am not bitter and no I have not been bumped I do have my own alphabet behind my name. I am just telling you what the recent trends are.

If you dont want a shortage of skilled laborers then start teaching them in HS again, make the title "blue collar" non deragatory, and start realizing that skilled labor is a profession with professionals that have earned the right to be called professionals and be treated like professionals.

You make some good points but.. you are off a bit.
1. America is turning into a service related country. We no long produce things like we did in the past. We are becoming a country of people that can fix the things we buy, and sell goods. Known as tritrairy (that word is way wrong, and hopefully someone will be around to fix it, but it means the third order or production. Primany would be mining ore, secondary would be producing the car with said ore, and then we would have that would I can't spell:o )
2. Read Malcolm Gladwell's "Tipping Point". He uses the example of immigrants (mostly Jewish). They brought a trade with them to this country (tailoring/dress making), and were able to make a good living at it because this skill was not present in America when they immigrated. So what did these families do when they had kids? They sent them to college so that they could have a better life. This is one of the reasons why there are (or people seem to think) many Jewish lawyers.
3. I started working every summer at age 12 as a tile setters helper. My dad always told me to go to college so that when I was old I wouldn't have to do that type of work. It was never looked down upon, it was just suggested that I choose white collar work because physical labor takes its toll on you after the years.
4. Those programs get cut at school because of budgets. First art and music then shop classes. I don't suggest they start robbing money from hard sciences, so that only leave a few other options.
5. It's not the schools fault kids have lost an interest in blue collar work, it's societies. Our culture is one of consumption, and for this one needs liquid capital. It is a simple fact that there is more money (and prestige) in white collar work. Face it, you can't have the bling bling and be the Maytag repair man.
6. What I could argue very successfully is that college teaches one analytical thinking. Studies show that after 5 years of being on the job college grads will outperform non-college grads at the same job.

I know some people that have made a good living as blue collar workers. And they all told me to go to college so that I wouldn't end up like them. That is not derogatory, it's just what they told me.

The market will correct itself (in theory). If all the blue-collar jobs dry up then someone with foresight will get into that market niche, and make a good living at it.

[Cold1]

You make some good points but.. you are off a bit.
1. America is turning into a service related country. We no long produce things like we did in the past. We are becoming a country of people that can fix the things we buy, and sell goods. Known as tritrairy (that word is way wrong, and hopefully someone will be around to fix it, but it means the third order or production. Primany would be mining ore, secondary would be producing the car with said ore, and then we would have that would I can't spell:o )
2. Read Malcolm Gladwell's "Tipping Point". He uses the example of immigrants (mostly Jewish). They brought a trade with them to this country (tailoring/dress making), and were able to make a good living at it because this skill was not present in America when they immigrated. So what did these families do when they had kids? They sent them to college so that they could have a better life. This is one of the reasons why there are (or people seem to think) many Jewish lawyers.
3. I started working every summer at age 12 as a tile setters helper. My dad always told me to go to college so that when I was old I wouldn't have to do that type of work. It was never looked down upon, it was just suggested that I choose white collar work because physical labor takes its toll on you after the years.
4. Those programs get cut at school because of budgets. First art and music then shop classes. I don't suggest they start robbing money from hard sciences, so that only leave a few other options.
5. It's not the schools fault kids have lost an interest in blue collar work, it's societies. Our culture is one of consumption, and for this one needs liquid capital. It is a simple fact that there is more money (and prestige) in white collar work. Face it, you can't have the bling bling and be the Maytag repair man.
6. What I could argue very successfully is that college teaches one analytical thinking. Studies show that after 5 years of being on the job college grads will outperform non-college grads at the same job.

I know some people that have made a good living as blue collar workers. And they all told me to go to college so that I wouldn't end up like them. That is not derogatory, it's just what they told me.

The market will correct itself (in theory). If all the blue-collar jobs dry up then someone with foresight will get into that market niche, and make a good living at it.

Nice counterpoints.

1: I can only speak for my field, 90% is made in the USA. There are 5 big name brands, only one is produced over seas. Our main focus is one type of equipment, it is our bread and butter, but we service many different types of other equipment. Again 90% is made in the USA, the imports are not close to quality and realiabilty.

2: The same thing could be said for the illegal immigrants we have now, there skill is to survive on low wages. They are sending their kids to college.( lets not turn this into an immigration discussion, i was just stating that it is still happening)

3: You started at 12, hopefully by this time you would have had your own business or you would have been higher up in the company and not doing manual labor. It all depends on your motivation. We have all seen the 50 year old with a shovel in his hand who just came back from his weekend bender.

4: How many starving artist and musicians are out there? How many college grads are under employed? How many skilled tradesmen are not hungry tonight? Budgets get cut all the time. The people who are making these budgets thinks that everyone must goto college to have a job. Skilled trades work is not a profession to them, it is a necissary evil. I have had this discussion with them, they seem to think that I work with my hands because I was not smart enough to go to college.

5: Maybe we need to define Blue collar VS skilled trades. To me it seems like skilled trades gets lumped into blue collar. To me skilled trades are the people who have dedicated a portion of their life to learning a true trade. Blue collar is more along the line of factory workers who dont have a skill that they can market. That being said, i agree there is no glory in blue collar work. In the skilled trades there is. The glory may only be within that trade but it beats the hell out of getting the employee of the month award. You can have the Bling if you are one of the best at what you do within the skilled trades. Even the maytag repairman gets made fun of, but maytags do break and in this economy the repairman is very busy. A $200 repair beats the $500 new machine. He is laughing all the way to the bank. Why, because the repair that he just made, the college grad homeowner could have done the repair himself if he would have taken one or two vocational classes instead of all college prep.

6: I could also argue that vocational courses teach "common sense", something that is repeatedly said to be disapearing. There is a differance between analytical thinking and common sense. The engineer has analytical thinking skills but the wrench turner looks at the prints and can tell him what wont work and why it wont.
In those studies are we talking white collar jobs or skilled trades?

I have two boys, I want them to goto college so that they have the potential to be better than me, but they will also learn whatever skill I can teach them so they will have it to fall back on.

To me the skilled trades have the same conotations(sp?) that the military has to non mil personell. Within the mil. you have your own traditions, your own glory, your own pride, your own accomplishments, but to a civilian they mean nothing. To them you were just some guy that was in the military.

[Expatmedic]

This ties in to the paper I did on Vocational Education, a month ago. Pretty much agree with all he stated. At what point would you all say that a 4-year degree really started being pushed over voc. ed?









http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-609023

[TPD1280]

It started with the Baby Boom generation. College was the answer to having a better standard of living than you parents did.

They were the first generation in which the majority went to college. Before them, only the minority when to college. The rest went to work. College was for people who were going to become teachers, doctors and lawyers and such.

When I was applying to go to work for KCSO as a patrol cop, a blue collar entry level position requiring only a H.S. diploma, I was competing with people who had Bachelors degrees. Degrees in useless fields, but degrees nontheless. Hell even a Criminal Justice degree is a useless degree. It's a pigeonhole with no other application, and any cop who has been on the job for longer than a year will tell you that you are one complaint, one car accident, one injury away from having to find a new job. So a CJ degree is not helping when you can no longer be a cop.

I saw people ENLIST, not seek a commission, but enlist despite having a four year degree. They got E-4 after only 6 months and were fast tracked to E-5. All that did was hurt the NCO corps and the service at large as you now have first line leaders who have not had the time to master the skills of those whom they are supervising. But they had a college degree. A worthless degree in American Lit, but it was still a degree.

Somewhere in the 60's to the 70's nobody was content to become a worker bee, everyone wanted to be in management. That is what the goal of seeking a degree was: an E ticket to management, and a pass on getting callouses.

Not everybody needs to go to college. Somebody needs to know how to square up the frame of a house. Somebody needs to know how to plumb, wire and weld.

We don't produce anything anymore. We are a service based economy. Our factories are shuttered, and God help you if you need to find a tool and die maker. We don't even have the tooling to re-open any of these factories if we needed to start making things again.

Prior to WWII, despite the industrial revolution, we were still largely an agrarian society. because of WWII we became an almost completely industrialized society, to the point that even our agriculture has become industrialized. The generation following ( the Boomers) all wanted to be the boss and work in the office rather than in the trenches. Their parents wanted that for them too. Problem is, nobody had the foresight to see the gap that Mike Rowe describes. Made in the USA used to mean first quality stuff. I dare you to try and find anything made in the USA outside of some high end luxury items. American labor is gone.

That stuff all got outsourced when American labor unions decided that semi-skilled labor needed to earn $50/hr, and get 6 weeks of paid vacation a year.

Now we have seven layers of management, and nobody who is willing to be a janitor, except the recent immigrant who is just happy to be here and can't understand why the people born here can't see that this is still the best place to live on the planet.

People whine about illegal aliens taking all of the jobs, THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO WILL DO THEM. Americans are too good to clean toilets and dig ditches, we all want to be managers. Everybody wants to be in a staff position, creating fiefdoms and making everyone believe that the company will collapse if they are not there to make sure that the TPS report is covered in every fax. It is all busywork BS that does nothing but impede productivity and wastes a pair of hands that could be busy turning a wrench.

[The Corporate Guy]

We don't produce anything anymore.

Actually, the US is - for the moment - still the world's larget manufacturing economy. IIRC, we will be surpased by China in the next year or so. But the point is that we still have a very large manufacturing base. There has also been a lot of recent discussion about the US becoming a stronger manufacturing economy. Claims that we have outsourced all our manufacturing just don't hold water.

http://www.bcg.com/media/PressReleaseDetails.aspx?id=tcm:12-75973

What HAS changed is the skill set required to land those jobs. Where in the past, a HS degree or less might help someone land a solid middle class job in manufacturing. Not so much any more...the standard is becoming "HS diploma PLUS", as in HS degree plus some sort of technical/vocational training. Manufacturing has become more technical and it often requires a better skill set. Those who can adapt to the environment will survive and propser, those who cannot will have a much harder time of it. Kind of the way it has always been.

The other side to the discussion about 4 year degrees is that they have, IMHO, become watered down. With everyone chasing them, and the free market willing to provide plenty of avenues to earn them, just having a degree does not carry the same weight it once did. A similar argument can probably be made for graduate degrees.

But I agree with Mike. We celebrate short cuts too much and invest too little in vocational training.

[hdjohn]

This ties in to the paper I did on Vocational Education, a month ago. Pretty much agree with all he stated. At what point would you all say that a 4-year degree really started being pushed over voc. ed?









http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-609023


Interesting video, and so true. As a side gig I had developed a Positive Mental Attitude course back in the 90's which I took to Vo-Tech schools around my area of Pa. Having spoken to thousands of students and teacher's groups, I was amazed at the mental beating these kids took from regular high school students because they decided to attend Vo-Tech. The "look down your nose attitude" at Vo-Tech students still goes on today, but these are the kids getting jobs, and they don't mind starting at the bottom for the most part.

My son graduated from automotive school (UTI) after high school, and decided he didn't want to get into the business at that point. He applied to one, yes ONE college, got accepted (:cool:), received scholarship $$, and has just finished his third year. What lies ahead for him in regard to a job no one knows, but he still has his automotive diploma as a backup.

As an aside, my dad was a carpenter, and I had uncles that were an electrician and plumber respectively. I watched and learned from all of them. I hung around with car guys since I was a kid, and learned everything I could. I went to electronic trade school after high school. I've saved thousands of dollars by doing my own work in all these areas, and I knew kids growing up that did the same. I'm not patting myself on the back but every kid I knew growing up had some type of skill because they were expected to learn something from those around them. To say that the trades can provide a decent life is an understatement. All this before becoming a police officer (H.S. diploma only required at the time), which is what I really wanted to do. But learning, hard work and starting at the bottom were a standard that has somewhat faded today. Everyone wants to make a million before they're 25........

Cameron Herold's video is interesting as well:

http://www.ted.com/speakers/cameron_herold.html


John

[Saw7616]

Claims that we have outsourced all our manufacturing just don't hold water.

I'll have to disagree, there are hundreds of thousands of people in the SE corridor alone that saw their jobs evaporated do to off shoring and sending manufacturing to other countries.

Automotive, Textile and Manufacturing jobs all vaporized for what? Cheaper prices at Wal-Mart and cheap Chinese crap.

All the mean while corporate pockets are stuffed to an all time high.

Our corridor was so impacted by the loss of jobs, we now have a surplus of energy that powered these plants that is ripe for the picking:

http://macdailynews.com/2009/08/17/apples_new_nc_data_center_one_of_worlds_largest_ma ssive_scale_cloud_computi/

http://www.facebook.com/rutherforddatacenter

http://www.news-record.com/content/2010/05/20/article/amex_coming_to_eastern_guilford


In Facebook's case they renovated a property that was once the #1 employer for manufacturing in that area.

SO yes, Manufacturing has been off shore at a blinding rate.


These new Data centers while a short term victory for our area is a long term loss when it comes to effective jobs. They employee a small number of people once construction is over. (40-100), and to add most of these positions are technical or managerial.

To add insult to injury 2 of the DCs that I've been involved with use out of state GCs. This allows for a short term boost in Hotel/Resturants but again, a long term loss.

[HighDragLowSpeed]

All the mean while corporate pockets are stuffed to an all time high.

Not to mention labor union leaders' pockets...:rolleyes:

"Michigan's biggest unions represented 60,000 fewer workers in 2006 compared with 2002. While membership plummeted 14 percent, jobs at union halls remained safe, dropping less than 1 percent.

Workers who kept their jobs saw the disparity between their paychecks and those of their union bosses grow. The pay gap between the state's 50 top-paid labor leaders and union workers has grown by $18,000 since 2002 -- an economic chasm expanding by almost $10 a day. Records supplied to the Labor Department by the unions themselves show that the state's 50 top-paid union officials now earn an average of $186,000. More than 1,000 labor officers and staffers in Michigan made more than $100,000 in 2006, more than twice as much as the average union worker.

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20070814/BIZ/708140392/Labor-bosses-don-t-share-workers--pain#ixzz1Mtx3oFNm

[Hot Mess]

Good points here as always but some short sightedness as well. Depending on how you look at it no degree is useless. Anything short of degree specific training could be considered useless, i.e. electrical engineer, architecture, biomed, ect. What you are learning, along with your degree, is analytical thinking which you can apply to anything you do. Likewise, you learn, or are supposed to anyway, is command of the English language. Studies show that college students start 5 years behind HS equivalents but soon surpass them on the pay scale, but of course I learned that in college :)

As for CJ degrees specifically they are more than a one trick pony. Social worker (shutter), prison guard (shutter), three letter agency, grad school for soc or psych, my ex GF went to law school with a CJ degree and an old roommate just got her JD last weekend with a CJ degree. Officers in the mil....high rate of CJ degrees due to low amount of credit hours you need to graduate.

Jobs moving overseas, I won't get into that spider web, but I do have one question. Everyone talks about these evil corporations that outsource jobs. Who do corporations have a responsibility to? One "person", investors. So if you hold stock in a company that moves manufacturing overseas I'd be weary of finger pointing.

Manual labor eh. I started working as a tile setters helper when I was 12 every summer until I graduated HS, did it until I started college, did it during college, and then again when I ETS'd. My boss always said the same thing to me, "go to college so you don't have to do this for the rest of your life". I also hung around my dad's friends auto shop learning about cars in HS and he said the same thing. These guys like what they did but it was hard back breaking work, and they were giving me advice that they wish someone had given them. So while I don't believe that blue collar trades should be look down upon in any matter, I see a college degree as a way for a better work life perhaps?

[The Corporate Guy]

Claims that we have outsourced all our manufacturing just don't hold water.

I'll have to disagree, there are hundreds of thousands of people in the SE corridor alone that saw their jobs evaporated do to off shoring and sending manufacturing to other countries.

Automotive, Textile and Manufacturing jobs all vaporized for what? Cheaper prices at Wal-Mart and cheap Chinese crap.

All the mean while corporate pockets are stuffed to an all time high.

Our corridor was so impacted by the loss of jobs, we now have a surplus of energy that powered these plants that is ripe for the picking:

http://macdailynews.com/2009/08/17/apples_new_nc_data_center_one_of_worlds_largest_ma ssive_scale_cloud_computi/

http://www.facebook.com/rutherforddatacenter

http://www.news-record.com/content/2010/05/20/article/amex_coming_to_eastern_guilford


In Facebook's case they renovated a property that was once the #1 employer for manufacturing in that area.

SO yes, Manufacturing has been off shore at a blinding rate.


These new Data centers while a short term victory for our area is a long term loss when it comes to effective jobs. They employee a small number of people once construction is over. (40-100), and to add most of these positions are technical or managerial.

To add insult to injury 2 of the DCs that I've been involved with use out of state GCs. This allows for a short term boost in Hotel/Resturants but again, a long term loss.

So you are providing new data centers being built, and new jobs created, as evidence that ALL manufacturing jobs have gone away? :rolleyes:

Manufacturing has been leaving the US for decades and the US still has the #1 or #2 largest manufacturing sector (along w/ China). You may disagree, but that will not change the facts.

[ET1/ss nuke]

It started with the Baby Boom generation. College was the answer to having a better standard of living than you parents did.


A lot of those boomers also used college as a source of draft deferments.

[504Mortar]

I like that video and agree what he says. There's a major problem with how people perceive skills and trades in our nation. I can't think how often I get asked here at school "Why do you want to learn how to farm?" I usually respond with, "Do you eat food?" I usually get some stupefied reaction, and a spark will slowly appear. We import far too much of our produce from foreign countries and only a fraction of it can get inspected. You want to talk about national security, there's a great topic...Many privileged people seem to think that a trade in plumbing, electrical, welding, farming, construction, or mechanical work is for "other people". If you want success you need college...horseshit. Here's a diagram I use to remind myself of priorities.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg/500px-Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg.png

This hierarchy of needs explains a lot about humans. In this case, without all the trades that provide or enable these lower echelons, nothing at the top is possible. In other words, all of the "higher education" required tasks are not possible without the "trades" providing physiological or security needs on the bottom. Morality, creativity, and problem solving are things one only worries about if one knows they have secured food, shelter, utilities and all of these other basic things. A lot of our basic systems are failing http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/ and we don't have enough people filling jobs required to fix such things.

While I understand the value of college in aiding one to think critically and learn a skillset, Mike Rowe is correct in noting the lack of jobs for college grads. Most of my friends who went to college when I enlisted are now either working crap retail or food service jobs that don't require a degree. Those few that did get a career got it through networking or someone they knew. I honestly plan on going back to earn an electrician certification upon completing my BS, simply because I don't want to only have one skill.

Furthermore, I don't find college is the ivory tower people claim. Most students I see spend mom and dad's money getting fucked up to the point where they can barely afford anything other than 99 cent burritos, and then putting in minimum effort for classes. Apathy rolled into entitlement is quite a combination. Before changing majors I'd been in a tourism class where nobody even knew we were looking at Iraq on a map.:eek: And this is the generation stepping up next to fill our "higher educated" jobs. Coming to a workforce near you in the next four years.

I think one component that's pushed aside in all of this is the entry-exit ratios from the workforce. For example, every two farmers over the age of 55 are retiring for one in his 20's wanting to enter, like myself. We do not have the momentum as of right now to close that gap. Do any of you want to rely heavily on foreign countries for you and your family's food? Will we make American farms even more industrialized with even fewer farmers doing the production? I seem to remember some saying about not putting too many eggs in one basket. The funniest part is, when I talk to someone from a tech school, blue collar background, or someone in a trade, they understand all of this and the implications.:rolleyes: The 200,000 skilled job gap Mike Rowe mentions; is it growing or closing?

[RGR.Montcalm]

Guys,

It has been done before

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=89858&highlight=Mike+Rowe

Threads merged.

FWIW, if I could make what I do in a 'blue collar' job- I would do it in a heart beat. I enjoy working with my hands- it's in my blood.

[TPD1280]

As for CJ degrees specifically they are more than a one trick pony. Social worker (shutter), prison guard (shutter), three letter agency, grad school for soc or psych, my ex GF went to law school with a CJ degree and an old roommate just got her JD last weekend with a CJ degree. Officers in the mil....high rate of CJ degrees due to low amount of credit hours you need to graduate...

The reason I call a CJ degree a one trick pony is that it brings nothing else to the table. Yes, it can help you prepare for a job in the criminal justice field, but everything you learn there you are going to be taught again at the academy, FLETC, etc. I can't think of any agency that is going to commission someone without first putting them through mandatory training despite the fact that the candidate was the top of their CJ class.

The alphabet soup will give you all the training you need to do the job, they want you to bring something else to the table like a degree in accounting, computers, law, or a hard science.

The best street cops I ever worked with were older guys who had worked as mechanics, tradesmen, even salesmen. The worst were the 22 year olds with no life experience, no way to relate to the public they are serving, and worse yet they thought they already had all the answers because they had a CJ degree.

I learned more about problem solving and analytical thinking by working crossword puzzles than I did in any of the college classes I have taken. No kidding. The NY Times crossword requires not only requires a solid knowledge of the english language and spelling, but the ability to find patterns, and solve multiple problems simultaneously using multiple probabilities and variables.

[Hot Mess]

I agree with your points. For myself, personally, I did an ICS (Individual Course of Study). I picked and choose my classes to get my degree. I have a lot of psych and soc unrelated to CJ. Going under CJ just got me out faster. I agree that thinking a CJ degree equates being a police office is equal to thinking playing Rainbow 6 is equal to being in a SOF unit.

I also agree that life experience will ALWAYS replace book learning. Just don't tell a grad/ Ph.D student that:rolleyes:

I don't like crossword puzzles, but I learned more about analytical thinking, expressing myself in a coherent well thought out manner, and more obscure topics in my 5-6 years of college (:biggrin:) than I would have anywhere else, YMMV.

I expected your counterpoint on my alphabet soup comment but I had to throw it out there:biggrin:

ETA: I though I saw this posted before. Looks like I said the same thing last time too.

[Soot]

"Why do you want to learn how to farm?"

I can see a bunch of Neolithic farmers sitting around right after the agricultural revolution looking down their noses at the hunter-gatherers, "that shit's so easy a caveman can do it".

:biggrin:

More on topic, I think that white collar workers look down on blue collar workers and blue collar workers look down on white collar workers. And as noted above, it's probably been happening since excess food production allowed for the crafts to develop.

Having done both kinds of work, and the dirty kind for a hell of a lot longer than the clean, I can respect that both a difficult if you do them right. That said, I'd much rather go home clean.

[504Mortar]

I can see a bunch of Neolithic farmers sitting around right after the agricultural revolution looking down their noses at the hunter-gatherers, "that shit's so easy a caveman can do it".

:biggrin:

More on topic, I think that white collar workers look down on blue collar workers and blue collar workers look down on white collar workers. And as noted above, it's probably been happening since excess food production allowed for the crafts to develop.

Having done both kinds of work, and the dirty kind for a hell of a lot longer than the clean, I can respect that both a difficult if you do them right. That said, I'd much rather go home clean.

That first part gave me a chuckle :biggrin:

I certainly agree there is a disdain for each field by the other. I'm guilty of it. It's somewhat akin to the combat arms - soft skill MOS clash in the Army. The fact of the matter is, we need people to do all kinds of different jobs. I could never go work in an office everyday dealing with meetings and reports. I would go insane. But we need people who can do that type of job, as much as we need someone who isn't afraid to go unclog and repair the shit pipe in our home.

[TPD1280]

my 5-6 years of college (:biggrin:) than I would have anywhere else, YMMV...

5 years to get a four year degree is not uncommon :eek: I've been working on mine for longer. But then, I'm just not hung up on that whole completion thing. :biggrin: I too have chosen an ICS program simply for the ability to take what interests me. Eventually I will have to knuckle under and declare.:biggrin:

[Hot Mess]

5 years to get a four year degree is not uncommon :eek: I've been working on mine for longer. But then, I'm just not hung up on that whole completion thing. :biggrin: I too have chosen an ICS program simply for the ability to take what interests me. Eventually I will have to knuckle under and declare.:biggrin:

LMAO Best thing I ever did was stay at college as long as I could have. I'd have stayed longer but the G.I. Bill wasn't going to pay for anymore classes:(

[ktek01]

I chose my profession because it is what I like to do. I could have gone to college, even had an offer to go the USMAPS and West Point route, pass. Dont like office buildings, dont like desk work, just not for me. Diagnosing cars I get to do plenty of thinking, especially today when they have 30 or 40 computers running everything over multiple networks. Im sure I would have made more money going to college, but 20 years of office work and I would have thrown someone out of a window by now, or jumped myself.

[Typhoon]

A lot of folks don't even know how to push a broom. Seriously.
Excellent point. Pushing a broom was literally the first thing I had to learn how to do in my first paying job. It is something that, because of that experience, I do not take for granted...

[Charlie Waite]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/05/25/136646918/paypal-co-founder-hands-out-100-000-fellowships-to-not-go-to-college

Peter Thiel a co-founder of paypal is paying 24 people $100,000 to drop out of college for 2 years and start thier own companies. They will be mentored by top innovators and entrepreneurs.
Rush limbaugh spent an hour talking about this yesterday. A lot of people are raising hell about it. Even though I dont agree with everything Rush says I agreed with him on this. Rush says he never went to college but he knew what he wanted to do and he worked his ass of for it. He started at the bottom and worked to where he is today.
College isnt for everyone and I know I would've taken that opportunity in a heartbeat if I would have had the chance instead of working in restaurant kitchens and cleaning up other peoples shit.

[Gryfen-FL]

College isnt for everyoneNor is it the "be all end all".
How many people leave a good college, with a useful degree and have absolutely no idea about 2 critical areas:
1- what to do about the impossible mountain of debt they are now under
2- how to actually live a life

[KidA]

Excellent point. Pushing a broom was literally the first thing I had to learn how to do in my first paying job. It is something that, because of that experience, I do not take for granted...

You aren't kidding. I can sweep like a motherfucker, either with a normal household side to side action, or the pushbroom. And the number of people I have seen over the years who absolutely have no idea (or just no mindset of actually caring) and can't use something as simple as a broom is pretty astounding.