Canadian Justice: Catch a Thief, You're Charged With Kidnapping

[SATCOM]

I am having a hard time understanding this....

Chinatown grocer's trial delayed

Crown to decide if it will proceed with kidnapping charge

Last Updated: Thursday, October 22, 2009 | 7:05 PM ET


A Chinatown grocery store owner's trial was put over in a Toronto court Thursday until Nov. 3, when the Crown is expected to say whether kidnapping charges against him will proceed.

David Chen was arrested in May after he and other employees at the Lucky Moose grocery store caught a suspected shoplifter. They claimed he had taken a flat filled with plants from the store on Dundas Street West in the heart of Toronto's Chinatown. Chen held and tied up the alleged thief, but when police arrived, they arrested Chen and two other store employees and charged them with kidnapping and forcible confinement.

Chen's supporters argued he was just trying to protect his business and that anytime business owners in Chinatown try to make a citizen's arrest they run into trouble with the law. Supporters complained that the issue of shoplifting — and how stores react to it — affects all shopkeepers, not just those in Chinatown.

The victim in the kidnapping case pleaded guilty to two counts of theft in August. Chen's lawyer, Peter Lindsay, told The Canadian Press outside court Thursday that pre-trial meetings with the Crown counsel were "not very productive."

Lindsay said Chen was simply defending his property, adding that he may launch a constitutional challenge to sections of the Criminal Code regarding citizen's arrests.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/10/22/chen-kidnapping.html#socialcomments

[Fofo]

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. However, it's Canada.

Unfortunately it seems like criminals are seen as the victims and those trying to

defend themselves are the guilty ones.


Best advice is to keep your hands off of the criminal. Call police. I wish that

wasn't the case but it is.

[grog18b]

Perhaps they should have just beat the shit out of the theif and left him go?

Out of the view of any security cameras.

[mdb23]

What I would be interested in seeing is how much time passed between the theft and the apprehension and detainment. The article isn't really clear on that, and it may be intentional.

If you cacth someone in teh act and detain them, you are okay. But if you think that someone stole from you 6 months ago, but no charges were ever filed nor was there enough evidence to proceed, then you are gonna have a hard time justifying snatching someone up and detaining them with rope.

[ibquiet]

It is Toronto, thats not really in Canada anymore is it??:biggrin:

[Fofo]

Don't be hatin' on Toronto just because we're better, sir! Damn cowboys! :biggrin: :p

Honestly, I got no beef on Alberta. Nice place and people.

[ibquiet]

I have a lot of good friends, and do business out there in TO, it's no Calgary!!:biggrin:

The underlying issue here is the right to defend ones self in your home or business, and in Canada it is not only discouraged, it is prosecuted in a lot of cases.

And god forbid you defended yourself with a firearm, your fucked, because it should have been locked, trigger locked, and ammo locked separate, unless they were stored improperly, how would you have the time to defend yourself:rolleyes:

I do agree with mdb23, they seemed specifically unclear about that detail.

[Fofo]

Reading the article again, I agree with yourself and Mdb23 about the lack of detail in the article. Now I'm on the fence with the whole incident.

There was a case several years back in a Loblaws where an employee, trying to be a good samaritan tackled a shoplifter trying to escape from loss prevention.

Well, the employee had no idea what he was doing, and ended-up snapping the man's neck and killed him accidentally. What I'm getting to is, there are obviously there are times when you should not take matters into your own hands, and/or risk your safety. It ain't worth it.

I digress.

Very true about the firearms. I don't think I can think of a way that I could legally defend myself with a firearm of mine and NOT be seen as breaking the law. So he tried to rob and kill me, but I go to jail.

Pathetic. :mad:

[Bravo Five Romeo]

The video on the same page as the article offers a couple of more pieces of information not in the written article.
Shoddy incomplete journalism by the way.

The thief was grabbed and tied up on a different day than when he stole.

They also stuffed him into a van after tying him up.

I have a couple of questions that the lack of details provided makes me wonder about.
Right now, I'm in favor of the store owner as doing the right thing.
but depending on the answers to these questions that might change.

-Why did they stuff him in a van after they detained him?
-How much time passed between when they detained him and when they decided to call the police?
-Did the store owner report the initial shoplifting from days earlier?
-Was the thief's identity known to the store owner before they detained him?
That last question is a biggee. In the video, there seems to be some suggestion from the other shop owners in the area that they knew his identity.
if the thief's identity was known, why not simply call the police and press charges, instead of waiting for him to return?


As an aside, long after I stopped working for the city, when I ran the door at a nightclub for many years, there were numerous times we cuffed and held law breakers until the police arrived.
But we always made the 911 call immediately and never moved anyone we cuffed from where we cuffed them, unless there was a safety concern.

[bobofthedesert]

IIRC, that PD has had major issues anyway, even within the grand (if we could call it that) scheme of Canadian policing.....

Oh, here we are......

http://www.primetimecrime.com/Recent/Police/Toronto%20Police%20Corruption%20Scandal.htm

[ibquiet]

TPD definitely has its corruption issues.

However our injustice system is second to none! Something to be really proud of. Like our healthcare.:confused:

[sfmedicw9]

They cant execute a citizens arrest in Canada? It doesnt have to be on the same date in the US as long as its the beginning of the arrest cycle and the cops are on their way


FOFO - there are no cowboys in Canada except maybe Devon Mezie and his name alone disqualifies him - A cowboy named Devon - bahh

oh and the whole Calgary thing - my grandmother can race a chuckwagon

[ibquiet]

Section 494. (Criminal Code Canada)[6]
(1) ARREST WITHOUT WARRANT BY ANY PERSON
Any one may arrest without warrant/s
(a) a person whom he finds committing an indictable offence; or
(b) a person who, on reasonable grounds, he believes
(i) has committed a criminal offence, and
(ii) is escaping from and freshly pursued by persons who have lawful authority to arrest that person
(2) ARREST BY OWNER, ETC., OF PROPERTY
Any one who is
(a) the owner or a person in lawful possession of property, or
(b) a person authorized by the owner or by a person in lawful possession of property
may arrest without warrant a person whom he finds committing a criminal offence on or in relation to that property.
(3) DELIVERY TO PEACE OFFICER
Any one other than a peace officer who arrests a person without warrant shall forthwith deliver the person to a peace officer.

Come on up at Stampede, no shortage of Smoking Hot Cowgirls!!!

Driving a chuckwagon takes MAJOR BALLS,,,, no offense to your grandma.:biggrin:

[ibquiet]

Sorry, double post.

[sfmedicw9]

so just a quick read of the code - the owner is justified .. or am i reading it wrong?

Canadian horses are too polite to be high spirited and your rodeo bulls are fat slobs eh

[Fofo]

I'll take your word on Canadian cowboys, bulls, horses and wagons. I know shit all about those things.

All I know is my relatives and quite a few other Albertans cook some great food.

Now, all I have to do is go on down to Houston, have a BBQ with other relatives,

then compare and contrast...

[ibquiet]

so just a quick read of the code - the owner is justified .. or am i reading it wrong?

Canadian horses are too polite to be high spirited and your rodeo bulls are fat slobs eh

I read it the same way you do, section 1 (a) (i).

So long as they knew he committed a crime, they had the right to detain him.

Like B5R said though, they stuffed him in a van, there was a concealed weapon, more to this story I think.

[ibquiet]

I'll take your word on Canadian cowboys, bulls, horses and wagons. I know shit all about those things.

All I know is my relatives and quite a few other Albertans cook some great food.

Now, all I have to do is go on down to Houston, have a BBQ with other relatives,

then compare and contrast...

Nothing like Alberta Beef!!!! Grain Fed Goodness, I am a proud member of PETA, as in Eating Tasty.

I have had my fair share of steaks in Houston the last few years, but the best I had, was the RAT steak!
:smile:

DevilDawg says he makes a mean BBQ, but we never get past Molly's, and the 24oz beers!!

[Fofo]

Nothing like Alberta Beef!!!! Grain Fed Goodness, I am a proud member of PETA, as in Eating Tasty.

I have had my fair share of steaks in Houston the last few years, but the best I had, was the RAT steak!
:smile:

DevilDawg says he makes a mean BBQ, but we never get past Molly's, and the 24oz beers!!

Rare And Tender?

[ibquiet]

Rare And Tender?

DevilDawg, RAT, or the steak??:p lol

[DevilDawg]

DevilDawg, RAT, or the steak??:p lol

Hey now. I resemble that last remark. Has to be the "RAT" steak. I am too long in the tooth to be tender. And I didn't see any arm twisting at the last session in Molly's. LOL. Pack your chit and move already. Who really likes snow anyway.

[ibquiet]

Hey now. I resemble that last remark. Has to be the "RAT" steak. I am too long in the tooth to be tender. And I didn't see any arm twisting at the last session in Molly's. LOL. Pack your chit and move already. Who really likes snow anyway.

I still vaguely remember the night I got back to the hotel at 01:00, and had to be at IAH by 4:30. Still for the life of me cant figure out how the hell I got up.

I must have reeked!! :biggrin:

I don't mind the snow, its the freezing that comes with it I can't stand, lol. January or February, I need to spend some time there.

What the hell happened to MOTO Thursday today?? Don't tell me you were busy. :smile:

[mdb23]

so just a quick read of the code - the owner is justified .. or am i reading it wrong?

Canadian horses are too polite to be high spirited and your rodeo bulls are fat slobs eh

As I said earlier, and others have pointed out, I think there is much more to this situation than we are getting from the article. This wasn't a case where a shop owner caught someone in the act and made a citizen's arrest.

The article was intentionally vague (to the point of being misleading) about certain facts in an attempt to stir up controversy.

[Fofo]

DevilDawg, RAT, or the steak??:p lol

I dunno, you tell me!

You had a steak made by RAT? You took a big bite out of him???? - !

I'm so confused now. I think I'll go to bed a bit earlier tonight. :redface: :frown:

[ibquiet]

I dunno, you tell me!

You had a steak made by RAT? You took a big bite out of him???? - !

I'm so confused now. I think I'll go to bed a bit earlier tonight. :redface: :frown:

I wouldn't even want to consider trying to take a bite out of RAT, it would be like a chihuaha trying to bite a pit bull, done in one bite.:biggrin:

[Remington Raider]

Some states have specific laws allowing a "shopkeeper" to "detain" a suspected shoplifter. Some states require the suspected offense to be a felony before you can execute a lawful "citizen's arrest".

Before you cowboy up, you better BE UP on the laws in your jurisdiction. Just sayin'.:eek:

[Fofo]

I wouldn't even want to consider trying to take a bite out of RAT, it would be like a chihuaha trying to bite a pit bull, done in one bite.:biggrin:

LOL!

Was just jokin' around. Yes, biting anyone, SOCNETter or otherwise is a bad idea. :biggrin:

x2 on B5R's and RR's posts.

Seeing the Criminal Code section, and what B5R said, I don't think Mr Chen should be dismissed of charges. It certainly seems like a case of kidnapping as he was charged with. Hopefully the real story will come-out soon.

[sfmedicw9]

All I know is my relatives and quite a few other Albertans cook some great food.

..


The fact that Canadian Cuisine actually came up on this forum is says a LOT about this forum eh

They should come south and open the worlds first Canadian restarunt eh

Toutins, Montreal Bagels, Back Bacon, meat pies, Beans and Toast, Roadkill and jerked Moose eh

[ibquiet]

The fact that Canadian Cuisine actually came up on this forum is says a LOT about this forum eh

They should come south and open the worlds first Canadian restarunt eh

Toutins, Montreal Bagels, Back Bacon, meat pies, Beans and Toast, Roadkill and jerked Moose eh

Don't forget Poutine, and raw seal(not SEAL) blubber, with some reindeer steaks!

:biggrin:

[sfmedicw9]

you forgot your "eh" eh

I guess we missed poutine when we were doing our area studies and target folders for Canada eh

[KidA]

All this talk about taking RAT into your mouths is very GAY.

[ibquiet]

you forgot your "eh" eh

I guess we missed poutine when we were doing our area studies and target folders for Canada eh

LOL, I have worked VERY HARD to remove "eh" from my vocabulary. :biggrin:

And an INTEL dump for you,,, invade through Alberta!!!:p

[ibquiet]

All this talk about taking RAT into your mouths is very GAY.

I knew that was going to be brought up, I lost sleep thinking about my phrasing of that post!!:eek:

[KidA]

I knew that was going to be brought up, I lost sleep thinking about my phrasing of that post!!:eek:


Well Andy says RAT is GAY so I'm guessing he won't mind.

[Fofo]

The fact that Canadian Cuisine actually came up on this forum is says a LOT about this forum eh

They should come south and open the worlds first Canadian restarunt eh

Toutins, Montreal Bagels, Back Bacon, meat pies, Beans and Toast, Roadkill and jerked Moose eh


Oh c'mon, don't be like that, we Canadians don't say eh that much. Eh. :tongue:

They did, it's called Harveys. Hamburgers, poutine and hotdogs, typical Canadian/Caker fare. :smile: :biggrin:

[sfmedicw9]

LOL, I have worked VERY HARD to remove "eh" from my vocabulary. :biggrin:

And an INTEL dump for you,,, invade through Alberta!!!:p


I think the original plan was to invade through the Michigan side of Sault Ste Marie into the Canadian side of the city cross the St Mary River eh

it just involved the Northern Border States that wanted to retaliate for you Kanuks jamming all our pool tables, video machines, and coke machines with your damn elk head quarters eh

But cooler heads prevaled when it was realized that it would disrupt the supply of Canadian Beer into the US eh

ahhhh the great moosehead affair of 2004 (i have an alibi - i was in Iraq and the bear wasnt related to me) eh

[ibquiet]

I think the original plan was to invade through the Michigan side of Sault Ste Marie into the Canadian side of the city cross the St Mary River eh

it just involved the Northern Border States that wanted to retaliate for you Kanuks jamming all our pool tables, video machines, and coke machines with your damn elk head quarters eh

But cooler heads prevaled when it was realized that it would disrupt the supply of Canadian Beer into the US eh

ahhhh the great moosehead affair of 2004 (i have an alibi - i was in Iraq and the bear wasnt related to me) eh

Although the Sault would provide little resistance, if you were to sweep through from Alberta first you would probably pick up some additional forces before the push through to the Middle East(Ontario & Quebec). :biggrin: eh

It is the subversive Canadian conspiracy to jam your vending systems with our 21 cent quarters, plus if we can keep enough people drunk on our beer all the time, nobody will give a shit, let alone complain when our true motives on world domination are revealed, eh.

[Biker B]

Vigilante shopkeeper has some charges dropped
Updated: Tue Nov. 03 2009 6:07:44 PM

ctvtoronto.ca

Several charges were dropped Tuesday against a Toronto shopkeeper who was criminally charged after running-down and tying-up an alleged shoplifter.

However, David Chen says he will still fight to have the remaining charges dropped, since he was defending his livelihood when the incident took place.

Chen was charged by police after he chased down and tackled a man he says stole a tray of flowers from outside the Lucky Moose Food Mart in Toronto's Chinatown earlier this year.

The 35-year-old shop owner, with the help of two employees, chased the suspect, grabbed him and tied him up, placing him in a van until police arrived.

But Chen was surprised when police wrapped up their investigation by not only charging the alleged thief but also charging him with several offences.

Chen was charged with kidnapping, carrying a concealed weapon, assault and forcible confinement.

On Tuesday, the Crown dropped the kidnapping and weapons charge - a charge that Chen's lawyer called "ludicrous."

"We're glad it's been withdrawn, said defence lawyer Peter Lindsay outside the Toronto courtroom.

Chen, who showed up in court with dozens of supporters from the community, said he's happy but disappointed because he was hoping the Crown would withdraw all the charges against him.

He told reporters outside the courtroom that he has been too busy with lawyers and court dates to properly run a business.

"There's not enough time," he said.

Lindsay said he will argue that police were wrong to charge his client in the first place because Chen put the suspect under a valid citizen's arrest.

With a report from CTV Toronto's John Musselman