Ottawa Citizen

[TonyM]

link to some good articles
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/military_crisis/index.html

Definitly read the "Warrior or Wimp". Good stuff.

"A master corporal writing from Bosnia several months ago called the large number of physically unfit people in the Armed Forces a public relations disaster. "If the buttons on your uniform are ready to pop off and possibly injure an innocent bystander, drop the bucket of poutine and waddle yourself down to the gym," wrote Master Cpl. D. London in a letter to the military newspaper, the Maple Leaf. "As for the policy, it appears to say that you can get as fat as you want, fail your (fitness) test if you feel like it, but you'll never be kicked out."

[This message has been edited by TonyM (edited 01-16-2001).]

[ssdeagle]

http://www.globalserve.net/~vertigo/

some more reading

[Cree Warrior]

WOW,
I hope these articles have some effect. They seem to hit the nail on the head on a number of issues. I hope they will influence popular belief, as that seems to be all that motivates our uppers these days.

Sua Sponte

[Cole]

Hmm...problems in the Forces, problems outside of the Forces. I am posting this question for Garrett. I seen on another post that you said you got hassled for being a reservist. I am assuming this was at University. Has this happened to anyone else? Is this common or isolated?
I am asking because some shitbag told me the other day that someone in the Army as having "some big problems..." It got me totally pissed off at the ignorance of some people roaming this country whose freedom was paid for by those who came before us.

[Enfield]

I live in a University Residence, and have to walk across campus to get to the bus stop to go to the unit.
No one's ever said anything, but I do get a lot of funny looks, which isn't that great. But it's not just studnets - get the same looks on the bus. People know me are supportive, and chicks still dig a uniform ;o)
A buddy of mine had a gf on the same campus tho, and going to meet her after work he got a lot of bad comments. Depends who ya run into.

I think the biggest problem is that people don't know what the Reserves are at all.

Enfield

[Disturbance]

I can only speak for myself, but with all my the ppl who I have come across and who I have talked to about me joining the forces they all seem to be supportive. I have never been hassled or what not. The odd time ppl are ignorant and think I will die if I do or they cant understand why I would want to but after some explanation they seem like they are wowed. In fact the ppl who I have talked to about it support me even more because of the current situation our forces are in. It makes it even more of a challenge and they respect that. Mind you I dont totally open to everyone about it just ppl whom I can trust as a friend.
Personally I think the only way to truely be free is to know what its like to fight and protect that freedom. Yes ppl are ignorant but that is just cause they are not given the right information properly. And if you get mad at ppl then that will jsut allow them to justify their beliefs even more. I try and just talk to ppl calmly when I know they have negative veiws and even if they still dont like it or whatever they come out of it with respect for ppl who do it. Maybe that makes sense.

-Disturbance

[Cole]

Well, If thats true Enfield, I know I'll wear my uniform tall and proud; one good look from a chick is worth ten dirty hippy looks!

[King]

Do local reserve units make any special attempt to recruit people in university such as setting up a booth on campus?

[garett]

Here at UNB Fredericton I've only seen one unit have a booth in the student union building and people avoided them like you avoid mad cow disease. When theres a career day and the recruiting office from base sets up a booth they seem to get a few people showing interest. For some reason I think UNB is full of slacker hippies. My unit was thinking about setting up a booth there but our platoon commanders and our Ocdt recruiting officer know theres no point. We tend to focus on high schools over universities. Fredericton is full of rich yuppies whose parents give them a new jeep for their birthday's and a pile of cash whenever they need it. Why get up early in the morning on weekends and work for your money when you can stay up all night smoking pot and sleep all day.

[Enfield]

Cole, Cole.. some words of advice: Dress uniform is always best. Helps if your in a group. If your in combats, they work better if your sleeves are rolled up (looks better).

The Reserves in Vancouver had a booth at UBC, but I don't think they got a lot of attention. In Halifax, the PLF has a large number of students, so it depends on the area. I know Reserves target high schools, but not so much universities.
Hell, CSIS held a recruiting lecture at UBC and protesters showed up at it denouncing the evil oppressive government and big brother agency.

Enfield

[FNG]

Cole:

Most adults don't really give it a second thought, since they know enough about the world to realize to a degree, and respect what we do.

The people who give you strange looks are usually young adults in university, or highschool kids. The later group tends to also say some of the dumbest things when they are hanging out in a group. "It's GI Joe," "Be all that you can be.", "Are you in the US Army," "Where's your gun?" or "Spare some ch --- hey, can you spare a grenade?" are some of the more common ones I've heard. Nothing outright hostile... they know better than that. I just respond politely and go on my way.

The uniform you are wearing symbolizes discipline, honour, integrity, hardwork, and a willingness to serve others before self. These are traits that are exactly opposite of most young people. So it's only natural that they don't understand soldiers. They don't know who we are, what we do, or the sacrifices we have to make just to serve them. They think we're all just a bunch of rambos running around with big knifes, shooting machine guns.

This forum reminds me of an editorial from a World War II veteran in response to kids skateboarding on the cenotaph and memorials in Ottawa. He said that he didn't mind the disrespect because it shows that the kids don't know why the memorial is important, and how horrible war is. He felt that this was a sign that they had done their job right.

Sure it's nice to be appreciated and understood by people around us, but if they don't? Just soldier on. You don't need their approval. They probably aren't paying their taxes anyway http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gifJust be proud of who you are. As the others have already said, once you explain your choice to them, they will respect you.

P.S. Yes, the dress uniform works very well.

[King]

Enfield,

The PLF is infantry, right?

[Enfield]

Yep, they're Infantry - only Inf. Regt. in Halifax. Great unit.

Enfield

[ZeroG]

Thats what happens when the CF armed forces do not any exposure anymore, or hardly.
Im just came back from the The Imperial War Museum in London. A bunch of school groups were at the museum and many young adults. They appeared to enjo them selves and shouted the occasional "cool!" From all the comments I heard from the general public, it is a mostly positive attitude and most still think its cool.
Anyways, I dunno. Perhaps the CF needs to do a few more high profile ops? You know what they say, "people fear what they dont understand."

[Cree Warrior]

Just to show you an example of how you get treated in uniform in Canada, vs the US.
Christmas, 95, I was in Santa Barbara, California on Block Leave; wore my class A uniform for a family outing and people were opening doors for me, (especially older people) and saying hello left and right.
On another occassion, me and some buddies went to Burger King in uniform and there were some young guys in line. They said "Hey look its Rangers" and they made us go to the front of the line.
Kids in the US will say to you, hey you're a Ranger, dont kill me (at least they know the job description).
Here in Canada, I'd bet 95% of all Canadians couldnt tell you the difference between a US and Canadian uniform, nevermind know what unit your in. Its just a lack of publicity, knowledge, plain ignorance. A buddy of mine was waiting for a ferry in Vancouver in his COMBATS, and four people came up to him and asked him questions about the ferry scheduling etc. They thought he was a ferry employee!!!
I think the CDN forces recruiting should invest in a high speed ad campaign, like the "Army of One" or pay movie directors to include CDN forces personnel. Its been done before, all it would take is for on the movie, "Black Hawk Down" to include some super gung ho, high speed guys from JTF to be in the movie somehow and you'd have Canadians all over saying,"Wow what is JTF, thats cool."
Recruiters would get calls, "how do I get to JTF?", etc etc. You get the picture. It would have a tremendous effect.

Sua Sponte

P.S. Holleywood won the cold war. We need to surf that wave.

[Enfield]

Wow, that's a huge difference.

In combats I've been mistaken for a rent-a-cop, and a mechanic - and people who just plain don't know what we do. The biggest one is Army Cadet though - and that is really annoying. Everybody thinks I'm in freakin' cadets!
And the stupid questions "Do you get to use guns? Have you ever fired a gun?" "What if there's a war?" "But the Canadian army isn't half as good as the Americans" "Canada has an Army?" etc...

Yes, we need some kind publicity. Hell, maybe someone should beat a Kosovar child to death, that seems to get attention...
We need better recruiting ads - the current one with the native woman is embarrassing. Show a patrol through Kosovo or Somalia (there's gotta be video footage around), or JTF, or anything high-speed and impressive. CBC should give us more attention too - maybe a series of specials, or some movies or whatever. A Canadian version of Battlestripes? CF-wide ads are no good - you need different types of people for each branch and job. The ads that get people into the Air Force won't get people into the Infantry.

In short, we need to get our name out there an dgive aproper impression of what the CF does. And not a PC-version..

Enfield

[FNG]

I don't know if you guys have seen the commercial they sometimes run in the theatres before the movies start... that's embarassing.

I think that things have improved somewhat now, since I just saw a Reserve TV commercial that has some more shooting in it (Arty and tank guns), and none of this can you clean these boots crap.

[garett]

I vote for a survivor/battle stripes type show with lots of fire and explosions. Also we should only let the pretty boy soldiers on the show to attract women and we should pay XFL cheerleaders to cheer us on when we do section attacks. On that note the US Army officer on Survivor 2 was raised in Fredericton. Too bad he didn't join the Canadian army then go on Survivor. Maybe we could of gotten some publicity.

[TonyM]

In Holland last year, people saw I was Canadian Army, bought me beers & coffee, wouldn't let me pay for food, came up to me on the street and introduced themselves. I was very impressed by the Dutch public, they have long memories. In the US last year, the Marines all wanted to have a picture taken with "the Canuck". Took me out for a 22oz steak dinner, bought more beers than I did. I have never had any of that treatment here. Makes you want to move.

[Disturbance]

Things are a changing slowly arent they? Arent we getting a big increase in PR budget and a huge push for recruits? Thats why you be getting paid Enfield when I sign in right. Takes time though and patience. That show Forbidden Places has done episodes on a full scale CF training exercise, Clearance Diver Selection, Rangers in the north, Submarine life, and Search and Rescue. I think a show like battle stripes would be a huge benifit to us, but if we spend all our money on a tv show how would we feed everyone and train (jk).
I was thinking also that once all this Tease the Soldier...I mean Clothe the Soldier stuff is complete a lot more ppl will be syked cause to the norm civvie a soldier in cool cammies is obviously a way better soldier than one in drab green and that may be one more push for a new recruit.
FNG I see your point very clearly to, but at the same time if we did have lots of exposure (when things go well not wrong) and the public did have an understanding of who the hell we are... I think everything within the forces would be greatly improved. See if noone cares of knows about the forces then noone cares when there are cutbacks and shit but if it was all very open and ppl were supportive then obviously the govt would treat CF a lot differently
Its all gotta start somewhere though.
-Disturbance

Thanks for the joke Enfield

[Enfield]

Ok, here's an idea since I just replied to that post on pathfinders. Get a recent Pathfinder grad to sit there in his DEU's an describe his time in the military and the courses with suitable music in the background and lot's of fast paced shots (choppers, parachuting, shooting, maybe GPMG/.50 cal live fire at night, patrolling, peacekeeping, etc).. and a slogan better than "Full and Part time Jobs available".

Incidentally, for a school paper on peacekeeping I spent a few hours 2nite reading transcripts of parliamentary debates regarding the military and peacekeeping. A lot of their views and what they said made me sick... A definite lack of understanding of a number of military issues among many of our law makers. I think our MP's know as much about the CF as the people that stare at me on the bus and think I'm a mechanic or mall security guard.

I'll bet if you asked a reasonably educated and politically aware group of Canadians (I was thinking of some discussion groups in university I have) to name 3 Canadian Regiments they couldn't do it. But they will probably have heard of the 82nd Airborne, USMC, Foreign Legion, and a few others. I'll bet everyone knows who the SEALs and Delta are - but no clue as to what JTF is. They think the last time Canadian troops were shot at was in Holland in WW2, let alone were in full-scale combat. They certainly have no idea what the Reserves are or do, and little knowledge of what the Regular Force does. In order for my friends to understand which unit I mean by "Airborne Regiment" I have to say "remember that unit that was disbanded for killing the kid in Somalia?".
Our government thinks that the answer to our problems is more psycologists and more coddling and more PC-initiatives when every soldier I've met as begged for harder training and a return to a tougher army. I know Reservists that have been called "baby killer" while in uniform (yes, they're a) Canadian b)too young to have been alive udring Vietnam). The day wearing a uniform gets me the kind of respect that Cree Warrior and TonyM describe will be the first. I don't particularly deserve respect, but there are a number of soldiers who have made huge sacrifices that do deserve respect. The public has to realize that the military kept working, sacrificing, and being hsot after WW2. Yes, there is that new $10 bill, but I have to wonder at the PC aspect of it - there are 2 women portrayed in it. Yes, I realize women have served overseas and mad scarifices, but the huge majority have been men. I can't help but think that they're on the bill for PC/PR reasons...

After Princess Gate the SAS did a number of lectures to various groups (officers, MPp's. etc.) and often, in the middle of the lecture the assault team would rappell in and whatever, and there's also the PR trick of having the VIP sit in the room surrounded by targets and the tam bursts in and shoots the target with live rounds. I suggest that JTF put on a little show for various Government officials... And the military obviously needs a serious PR facelift. That stupid ad they currently have that plays in theatres is horrible...

Enfield

PS Sorry for the length.. I needed to vent.

[This message has been edited by Enfield (edited 01-24-2001).]

[Marauder]

Good line of thought Enfield, just a few nits to pick though.
I'm not so certain that any MP has the stones to sit through a live-fire room clearing. They would never live down leaving a brown streak on the seat. (Bad for the career, you see. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif)
Second, I wouldn't trust the average MP to keep quiet about the names and identities of the JTF guys. They would probably have the whole roster's names and pictures in the Globe, Post, or the TorStar (depending on ideological bent) the next damn day.
Just my $0.02.