NO MORE JUMP COYS!!??

[Cree Warrior]

I saw on the news Friday that there will be major cuts made to the Military budget and on the cutting block are the jump coys. I had heard rumours of this before but it saddened and angered me to finally see it happening.
I guess those soldiers who aspire to excellence (usually found in Airborne light infantry units) will have no where to go. No doubt alot will leave the army.
I think this will have a huge effect on our army and its combat proficiency.

Sua Sponte

[TonyM]

That's right, no more "almost Airborne". Saw it in the Maple Leaf last year when they did the last batallion jump ex. The reasons stated that the idea of Canada needing a airborne unit in operations such as Bosnia was "outdated". Well if that's the case, how many trenches have we cleared on UN/Nato ops? How many coy, platoon or even section attacks has the CF perfomed in ops? One or two maybe. Perhaps there's some evil plan afoot to slowly morph us all into engineer units. They seem to be in the most demand lately. But I must admit I can't see another Market Garden happening soon, even the Paras used helos on the Sierra Leone thing. What does everyone think? I feel parachuting is a excellent method of entry for recce teams, FOO's, even raids with a helo exfil.

[baboon]

The other thing about airborne is as General Gavin said a long time ago, if you want to find out if a man will fight get him to jump out an aeroplane at night in full equipment. Okay parachuting is safer these days but there is still that risk factor. Certainly in those places which have a parachute selection course the fitness and aggression of paratroopers is rarely in doubt.

[King]

So what about the jump course?

[Enfield]

great... When will they go? Why is the CF working very hard to destroy anything that shows signs of being combat oriented?
Ok, for airborne operations, the Jump Coys aren't much good. But, they could act as a nucleus in time of war for a larger airborne unit, or do specialized small level jumps (like the 2nd REP at Kolwezi).
But mainly, the Jump Coys were where the best soldiers aspired to be. That we're losing the elite (I use "elite" for lack of a better term) infantry unit is terrible... So now all the soldier has to look forward to is section attacks in Gagetown. Shilo, and Pet? wow... and the government wonders why morale is so low?
Does anybody have any stats for Canadians serving in forign militaries? I've heard lot's of talk, but no solid info. The Brit military certainly takes Canadians asking questions as completley normal. This decision is just going to drive more of our best soldiers out.
Potential recruit/young soldier: "Jeez, 3 years in Petawawa doing the same stuff over and over again in second trate equipment.. or 3 years in the British Paras (for example) with all the best courses, good gear, internbational respect, and the sharp end on most major operations..."
The Middle East is going to hell in a handbasket, the global political-economic situation is changing rapidly, our troops have been deployed in several high intensity and dangerous situations in the past few years (Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, East Timor), and the goverment (or senior officers) see no need for elite infantry??!!!

Enfield

[Cree Warrior]

I think there is definitely a need for Airborne troops in todays world. It is still the fastest way to deliver soldiers onto the ground over large distances. A single Coy may be pushing it as far as being able to do an airfield seizure, unless its the drugged up West Side Boys.
An Airborn assault is alot harder to defend against than most people realize however and an organized Coy can wreak havoc.
Its the "elitism" of an airborne unit that we will miss. It would be like telling every kid in Canada that plays hockey, "Well son, there's no more NHL, the most you can hope for is AAA" Most kids would drop out and join a sport where they can at least have the chance of being a pro, or "Elite".

Sua Sponte

[TonyM]

How about we set up our own military parachute "club". The brit TA guys do it. They run it through the TA association. They also run exchange programs with other militaries too. Do we have a national CF Reserve Association or similar?

[Skip]

I think it's very stupid to loose an airborne capacity. Everyone (with a military mind) knows the value of such agressive, shock actions.

Instead of looseing it, why not expand on it. I think the Russians had it right (for a change) with the introduction of an airborne IFV (BMD) introduced in the 60s. And I am suprised that no western government took up the idea. LSVs just don't compare.

Yes - it's true that light infantry require refinforcing within 48hrs and are vanurable to counter attack, you place large numbers of troops at risk in large slow aircraft etc - but with a company in IFVs or even LSVs a battalion could achieve a lot more.

Australia used para droped SF during the East Timor operation, and during Vietnam. I believe there was a drop during the Gulf.

In this age of financial restraint I can see a point to trim the fat off armies, but you should strengthen the cutting edge, provide more firepower and support elements such as armed helos, etc.

It's a big loose for Canada.

[Enfield]

True, the fat should be trimmed from the military - I see a few thousand positions in NDHQ that could go. But no, the government cuts back the Infantry.
I know that between the World Wars we had a tiny military, and that we pulled it together for both Wars. But we didn't have troops being shot at in 1910 or 1930! Peacetime cutbacks are one thing, but we don't look very peaceful right now - those Van Doos that landed in East Timor didn't look to peaceful, and I'll bet the guys who were shot at in Sarajevo didn't feel very at peace.
The only reason to serve in the Combat Arms is because you enjoy soldiering, and the CF is slowly chopping away all the reasons to enjoy being a soldier.
TonyM- no, i don't believe we have an Association. Sounds like a good idea though, it would let us run training and stuff outside of the military red tape.

Enfield

[TonyM]

Was this where they came up with that extra $42 mil? Had a good chat with an officer that came off his staff course. He told me the strangest thing, "The focus of the peacetime CF is to produce officers and HQ staff. This produces an effective core that can build up an army when needed, we just don't have the money for anything else". That sentiment seems to fit in with what's happening. It's true that the empasis is not on the spear but on what kind of spear? How long should the handle be? Should the spear be metal or carbon-fibre? etc..., well you get the point (non-intentional pun). My vision is this (let's keep the spear anology going):
NDHQ decides our spear is no longer the spear it used to be. We must create a new one, modern and effective. They busy themselves with research on spears and decide that to continue to work on a spear, first the point must be removed so nobody gets cut, it's sharp and dangerous. Now the point must be kept in a safe place, secure and with a cover so it won't be damaged while in storage. This produces a new comittee to decide on safe and effective storage techniques. While this is going on everybody starts passing the handle around to get their impressions. Someone decides that the handle is too long as it's too cumbersome to pass around. Now a board convenes to determine just how long the handle should be, short enough to pass around with out poking someone in the eye, but still long enough so everyone can get in on the action because if it's too short you wouldn't need so many people working on it, right? After years of negotiations and remodelling, they are ready to trial the new CF Spear, A1, Mk 0. Public Relations heralds the spear team as the dawn of new international spear developement, joint cooperation and administrative brilliance. HQ sends a team to get the point out of storage for the upcoming spear trials. Well guess what? (You know this part) The point had suffered badly in storage. When removed from it's fancy, locked cabinet and the cover removed, it had rusted badly and gotten quite dull. "Not to worry" cried HQ, "We don't need a real point yet, it's only trials". Naturally, the trials went poorly. The spear failed all the penetration tests, was unable to cut wet tissue paper and fell off the new handle repeatedly. "The fault seems to be with the point, not the handle" HQ decided "after all, we've created a world-class spear handle here." So they set about grinding the rust and some metal off the point to make it small enough to fit on the new handle. Now beaming and proud like Fathers of Conferation, they demonstated the new spear to their allies. "This is our new spear, it tooks years of R&D, careers were made and lost, millions were spent, the greatest minds we consulted, what role can we assume in the defense of the realm?" The gathered nobles all viewed the spear, pondered it for a moment and replyed "Can we use it to pick our teeth?"

.....but we all lived happily ever after...

[garett]

You can't forget the crowd of university students assembled around the conference of Spear manufacturers, protesting that Spears are out of date and that we should all smoke pot, have lots of sex, and refuse to get jobs.

[enderr]

hear this the CF will not dispense with a para capability. if they do scrap the para coys, then a battalion sized force will be formed, and based in trenton...okay.

[garett]

Aint going to happen kid. If they get rid of the coys then they're going to get rid of the course then its just a matter of time till there are no more jumpers. Maybe today's election will have an impact on this situation.

[Enfield]

The course won't be cancelled - they still have to train SAR Techs and JTF. SAR guys for sure, since it's bad PR when we can't save crews on sinking ships, same eason only the SAR choppers are getting replaced.

Enfield

[TonyM]

And don't forget all those steely-eyed desk warriors in Ottawa. Can't walk around NDHQ with a metal travel mug and no wings!

[Cree Warrior]

I heard word that they may send guys to jump school in Benning. It would be alot cheaper anyway. Give em CDN wings when they get back (sorta like the MArine Corps)

Sua Sponte

[LRSC Grunt]

great... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif

Now jump school slots will not only be wasted on cadidiots and noncombatant females but they will also be wasted on canooks.

Just what I wanted to hear after waiting for a jump school slot for almost two years!!! even when im in a jump unit http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/mad.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/mad.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/mad.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/mad.gif


http://www.fastball.com/pastime/post/ws/1992/ws92at.gif

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 11-30-2000).]

[DFC5343]

LG....I'm with you....its canuck though
http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif

[enderr]

heh...don't get too bitter..after all, two guys from the 75th Rangers were accepted as candidates for the pathfinder course here...although they were told it was three weeks...not three months[hehehhehe]

[garett]

Yeah I have to agree that its pretty shitty that we have to send our troops south for training but its not like our government won't be paying for it.

[Reverend B]

Yup. Sending people out of country for a course is absolutley embarrassing. I don't agree with our Canadian Liberal mindset AT ALL! Kinda funny that the only seats that they won around here are from all the faggotty lower-mainland 'people'. I think that Canada is FUCKED politically, but that is just me. Teach us how to recognize harrassment and report it instead of hardening us against it and knocking teeth down peoples frikkin' throats that harrass us. Get rid of the Para capability instead of making EVERYONE airborne/airmobile. I guess that with the mass amount of tundra and prairies that it is adaquate moving people over a course of days rather than hours. I never realized that routes to a DZ can be washed out/snowed over/avalanched on route through the mountains. Sounds like another Liberal government decision. I'd like to talk more, but I have to hide some more 'weapons' in my drywall. In my world, every infanteer would have his wings and be able to support any other unit in Canada within 24hrs. But that decision might give us pride and strength, and we would NOT want that. But again, that is just me.

[LRSC Grunt]

Do yall still have bash a 'paki' day?

[Marauder]

Reverend B:
You are spot on. There is absolutley no reason that every Canadian infantry man ought to Airborne and Air Assualt qual'd. Christ, we only have three active duty regt's, right?
While our brothers to the south have an entire friggin division. The problem? There are no foreseeable politicians in Canada's future who will put more money into recruting, put cash into jump/air assault training, and start buying aircraft and choppers that our troops could jump from while NOT FALLING APART! And it's not just the liberals. Do you really think that the prophet Stockwell gives five flying fucks about our military capability? Bull. He'll be too busy building compounds to stuff away all the unwed mothers while keeping the military busy hunting down any doctor who goes against his wishs by performing abortions. There is not a pol alive who looks after only one thing: him or her self. As long as I can remember, no pol has kept every promise they made to get into office. All they have done is grease their own palms. Nuff said.
LRSC Grunt:
Thanks for reminding me why the entire world thinks of Americans as arrogant and self-centered. For every hundred Americans I meet who are warm, intelligent, and inviting people who show respect to others so long as respect is shown to them, there is one who thinks that anyone who doesn't live in "God's land" is inferior.
As to your gripe about non combatants and pogues, you are right. Jump training should only go to people whose MOS states implicitly that they might one day jump into a combat situation. And since no one in the American military thinks they should have the "burden" of peacekeeping and trying to help democracy spread, then perhaps you could help the rest of the world prepare for this arduos and very often hazardous duty in any way possible. That way you can sit home and go through the motions while the rest of NATO gets its hand dirty trying to stabalize regions that have known nothing but constant strife.
A question: If you hate Canadians so much, why bother coming to this board? Soley for the purpose of denigrating Canadians?
And my last question/comment: Do you think that perhaps it would be fitting to honour the Canadian men who chose to fight in Vietnam alongside our American brothers while YOUR draft dodgers were making a beeline for our country by opening up enough school slots for one company of Canadian infantry to become airborne OR airmoblie qual'd each year? Is that too much of a sacrifice to ask for the men born under a Canadian flag who died in Vietnam fighting a war they had no obligation to fight in? Just something to think about.
Marauder

And btw, thanks for finding that shot. Kinda sums up my point about some Americans having no respect for any other nation but their own. I'm sure if our honour guard had done the same to your flag, they would have been shot by some irate American who "just happened" to be packing his Desert Eagle that day. And to think that I would have expected the Marines to have understood the importance of heraldry and symbology inherant in a national flag. Aw fuck it, I'm wasting my (proverbal) breath.

[enderr]

can anyone say aid to civil power...hmmm "i can see it now..my maroon beret and my c-6...what a turn on...."

[Cree Warrior]

Hey LRSC Grunt, you probably had to wait cuz you are weak! What unit are you / were you in? Keep your racist comments to yourself as well. They may fit in down there in Texas, but they are not acceptable here.
If you have a problem with Canadians being down there in the US Forces or training, there are a large number of buds serving down there that would disagree. Guys that are dedicated to soldiering and the warrior spirit.

Sua Sponte

[Reverend B]

Right. Grunt, I still have 'bash a fuckin' idiot's teeth in' day, everytime I drink.

[LRSC Grunt]

My parents lived in Canada for a short period of time. Both told me that about 4 times a year people would dub a certain day bash a 'paki' day. Im just curious if that is true. I am not a racist, I just find that to be kinda funny. My parents have nothing but bad things to say about canada, its people, and its socialist government. Living there was hell. I can see why.



[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 12-01-2000).]

[DFC5343]

LRSC...even hockey left the great white north...I love it up there but some people are able to twist a good discussion into racism. Cree if you truly are Cree you know better. The aboriginal peoples of the world have been shit on by governments since civilized worlds were created. Humble yourself and understand that we(americans) live in a "he with the most money and suction wins and gets whatever he/she/it wants". When our combat readiness is short changed by politics and who blows who, we reserve the right to bitch. Canadians coming to the US never was or ever will be a problem for me or most Amerikans(Canadian spelling). If you can get the good deal...so fuckin be it, but some WILL be unhappy. Thats life. . Enuff said...go in peace brothers...

[This message has been edited by DFC5343 (edited 12-01-2000).]

[Quimby]

Obviously the fact that you find it funny means you are a racist. As for Canada's socialist government, I certainly won't defend it, as I hate socialism in all it's forms, but if you think America doesn't have a socialist government then you obviously don't know what socialism is.

[DFC5343]

Country of origin is not race. Race is what you are not where you are from...besides if you want my opinion we threw out our socialist government in 1776...you guys still fly the union jack...We have our own bullshit down here as well as you do but back to the topic. Canada needs its own military training requirments and should not rely on foreign governments to provide them the training needed to protect their ground and peoples. A sense of humor goes a long ways and being thick skinned goes with being part of yours and mine military. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

[LRSC Grunt]

So its true...how freaken hilarious.

Quimby,
You must be EXTREMELY IGNORANT we have a capitalist government, but if the democrats had it their way we would be in the same boat as you. BTW, why dont you have bash a 'liberal' day? LOL

the entire world thinks of Americans as arrogant and self-centered.

Are you jelous???? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 12-01-2000).]

[DFC5343]

Oh Canada...da da da.... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

[LRSC Grunt]

Wait...they need a flag to go with their national anthem.

http://www.fastball.com/pastime/post/ws/1992/ws92at.gif


LMAO!!!!

[Marauder]

LRSC,
Either your parents are liars or they are dim-witted (I lean to the later, after reading your posts and factoring in genetics). Go peddle the shit you are spewing out of your mouth to your Klucker Klan brothers (do y'all good 'ole boys have a 'bash-a-mexican-labourer' day for your klan meetings??) and to your pole-smoking "militia" friends. I for one feel it has no place here.
BTW, when were your parents in Canada? Was your father one of the draft dodgers who fled to our "socialist" haven to avoid fighting for his country? Maybe he didn't like the place because he was treated with the contempt such people deserve.
And as for our "socialist" government, how much do you pay for health insurance for HMOs above and beyond your regular taxes? Me, I don't have to pay health insurance, because in the 60s my "socialist" government legislated that all Canadians would be given access to universal health care. Is it a perfect system? Not always. But as far as I am concerned, it works well enough for me, and I would take it over the American system any day.
And back to a question from before; if a Canadian was flying an American flag upside down, how do you think an American would react? How would you react? Show some respect, you ignorant (in every possible sense of the word) redneck.
And I am in no way -jealous- (learn to spell, moron), I would rather live here than be stuck in some ignorant backwater (like, oh, say Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, etc... you get the idea... or maybe not) down there with fuckwads like you.
Anyway, fuck you very much, and have a nice day.

MARAUDER

[garett]

Troops don't waste your time on them. Not worth it.

[LRSC Grunt]

Go peddle the shit you are spewing out of your mouth to your Klucker Klan brothers (do y'all good 'ole boys have a 'bash-a-mexican-labourer' day for your klan meetings??)and to your pole-smoking "militia" friends.

COUGHCONCLUSIONJUMPCOUGH!!!!!

BTW, when were your parents in Canada? Was your father one of the draft dodgers who fled to our "socialist" haven to avoid fighting for his country?

Hmmm....this was at about 1976 and he was relocated there by his employer ...COUGHCONCLUSIONJUMPCOUGH!!!!

And as for our "socialist" government, how much do you pay for health insurance for HMOs above and beyond your regular taxes? Me, I don't have to pay health insurance, because in the 60s my "socialist" government legislated that all Canadians would be given access to universal health care. Is it a perfect system? Not always. But as far as I am concerned, it works well enough for me, and I would take it over the American system any day.

Ok...so you stated that it "isnt perfect" yet you say that you dont care because YOU dont have to pay for it. Your a lazy ass piece of shit bastard who cares about yourself more than anyone else. At one point I didnt have any health insurance. Wana know how I fixed it? I FOUND A NEW FUCKING JOB!!! I cant see how someone can take pride in paying for someone elses sorry ass because they are incompitent lazy fuck bottom dwellers who expect others to do things for them. Socializm eats at a bowl of dick!!

a Canadian was flying an American flag upside down, how do you think an American would react?

Well according to our flag etiquite, if a US flag is upside down it means that help is needed. We would probably laugh at you the same as we laugh at pissing you off during the 92 world series. Those marines had alot of self discipline. I dont see how they kept a straight face when they did it. Shit we got better things to worry about than some stupid canuch making a fool of himself.

I would rather live here than be stuck in some ignorant backwater (like, oh, say Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, etc... you get the idea... or maybe not) down there with fuckwads like you.

LMAO!!!!!

Some peoples children.... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif

[Quimby]

LRSC Grunt, I will say again, if you think America has a capitalist government you don't understand the concept. The fact that the government takes(steals) income tax from you to redistribute to the weak of society in the form of welfare means you are living in a socialist state. Your current administration, democrat or republican, it makes no difference, is so far from the principles of laissez-faire capitalism espoused by your founding fathers that it bears no resemblance to true capitalism. Some research on your part would bear these facts out.
I am also no American basher. I think America is great country and I have enjoyed the time I've spent there. I do however despise ignorance, be it from Canadians or Americans.


------------------
An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

[LRSC Grunt]

Compaired to the rest of the world, Yes we do have a capitalist government(knock on wood in case gore pulls something out of his ass)

[Reverend B]

OK lads, we are getting off topic here. This topic was started on the idea that us Canucks are ridding ourselves slowly of our jump ability. LRSC Grunt and others, start another forum if you want to tear at one anothers throats. I'll finish up by making the statement to clarify myself. I do not care about a persons sex, race or sexual preference when soldiering is the issue. Save that shit for the mess. If a troop can ruck up, hump to the ORV, hit the objective with maximum use of speed, violence and aggression (like our paratrooper brothers used to do), and then be able to extract out, then they are ok in my books. Let us keep racism and socialist bickering to other forums.

[Cree Warrior]

I wonder if this is how wars start eh??
Good to see some good ol Hoser pride!!
We need more Canadians like you guys.


Sua SPonte

[Enfield]

Just a note on the Jump Coys... I've heard (from guys in my unit that worked extensivley with them) that the Jump Coys are not all that hot in terms of soldier skills (not that much better than average Reg F), that they had a huge ego, and that the troops were not significantly better than the average. Ie, "I got my jump wings in cadets, so they put me in the Jump Coy right after Battle School"
Basically, it really is only a shadow of the Airborne.
And i haven't heard anything more about the Jump Coy's being disbanded....
A Ranger Course was just offered at my unit last night (Mcpl - Capt only), names had to be in immediatley. But Canada has never sent a soldier on that course that didn't have Pathfinder first (hence they're guaranteed to do extremely well)

Enfield

[DFC5343]

The rumor flies down here that Canadian special forces are soon to be disbanded. I hope that to be untrue. I think that the peacekeeping/world police mentality is causing the liberial politicians to balk at the use of specops as an asset. If we as a military perform the job we are trained to do, win wars, then the community(specops) would be safe from the political axe. Small note....LRSC is right....the flag upside down...help please. Be thickskinned and fly low....

[TonyM]

JTF has just gone through an expansion. The rumour you're talking about was from some article in the Ottawa Times that quoted some (civy) DND person saying that they should make JTF and CSIS into a FBI type service. All crap, from crap source, means crap. I suppose that because thier budget and financial data are classified, a lot of people are pissed off not being able to control them. I hope and pray every day it stays that way.

[Disturbance]

I was talking to my friend in R.S.H based in edmonton and he was saying
"Ok, goes like this...

They found out the hard way that it costs more to have one Airborne COY to each INF BN... So, they have decided to strip the INF Regiments of their Airborne COYs, and re-form an Airborne Unit, which is going to be the backbone of a new RRF.

No, nothing has been said on D-NET or Maple Leaf, but I did read it in both the Calgary Herald and the National Post.

They're doing the feasability study now, and we will be looking at a new unit by 2005/2006."

So not all is lost. I am all for a new variant of the ol Airborne Reg cause those guys kick ass. I guess the gov realized how dumb they were (wait a sec thats impossible) for disbanning a whole regiment because a few idiots.

-Disturbance
We're surrounded. That simplifies the problem

[abprar]

Ah my Canadian brothers.Myself and a few mates were talking about the old days the other day.I use to be in the Australian parachute battalion 3RAR we had in my platoon 2 Canadians 3 all up in the Coy and I think 1 or 2 more in the battalion.I can tell you it was a black day in the Battalion when your Airborne reg was disbanded.
3RAR fought along side 2PPCLI in Korea and share a US Presidential unit citation with them.
Anyway there was talk this year of disbanding our Airborne,the Canadian thing was brought up.This was due to a few bashings of thieves which the media got hold of and blew out of proportion.I don't know about Canada but the Worst crime in OZ army is theft.You can,t trust a dude who steals.Anyway there were also about 6 guys who were skin heads and had a band.Of course they forgot to mention the hundreds of normal dudes ,of all colours and backgrounds.There was a huge push by the media and some politians to disband the unit and by some soldiers.(You see unless you are airborne you do not understand the mine set.Its not Gungho its confidence because you survived that jump at 0300 did that 60km march under 12 hours carrying 40kgs on your back.YOu know what it means to be alive.YOu know it when you stand in the belly of a Steel stallion(C130) at a thousand feet hooked up good to go with 63 of your peers you respect and your about to put your life on the line for your country and its peace time.That is AIRBORNE)
Anyway Our defence minister came out in a press conference and said there was no way the government would disband a unit with such a fine record and history all because of a few hot heads.
I think maybe your government depends on the us to much.Hey You guys can always come to Oz we need more infantry and airborne