Snowbirds

[Quimby]

Just over at the DNET site and they posted a link to the Snowbirds homepage. I wonder, in this age of cutbacks and antiquated equipment, why the pinheads an NDHQ insist on funding an aerial display team for an armed force that lacks so much mission critical equipment. I've seen their show, and sure its pretty impressive, but at the end of the day who cares? Our helicopters can't perform necessary search and rescue functions but the Snowbirds have the funds to travel North America displaying their flying prowess. Canada should find another way to display its military muscle, (such as it is) like properly training and equiping its troops. End rant.

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An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

[King]

If you ask some pilots about this (which I have done), they get defensive and will tell you that the maneuvers the Snowbirds use are often helpful and similar to the ones used by pilots in combat. Although I don't know a great deal about combat flying I would guess that it's true.

Yet I still agree with you. We are at a point right now with Canada's military where we can't afford morale boosting acts like the Snowbirds, which I think are more to boost the public’s morale then that of CF members. The two things in Canada that the public knows about our military is peacekeeping and the Snowbirds. Consequently our fearless leaders will never get rid of either. Otherwise Canadians would know they had a military. Now matter how small our army gets or how out of date our equipment becomes we will never stop the peacekeeping. Not unless some disaster occurs where a whole whack of Canadians are killed and wakes everybody up. The Snowbirds are no different.

Having a group like the Snowbirds does give pilots something to strive for, like the old Airborne Regiment did with soldiers or like the JTF2 kinda does today. That might be good for retaining pilots (which we need) but the Snowbirds are not an essential combat service. Whereas Canada needs a CT unit (if the military doesn't run it, the RCMP will have to, either way the government pays) we don't need an air demonstration team. Besides sucking up money for gas and servicing it also takes away pilots from more essential combat or transport roles (although I don't know how many Snowbirds pilots fly Hercs, I'd say none) not to mention the ground crew.

If we were to throw more money at the military and fix a lot of the other problems I would say keep the Snowbirds. But in terms of the practical operations carried out by the CF in the past few years it's been peacekeeping, disaster relief, maritime patrol, airspace patrol under NORAD, dropping bombs on Kosovo, search and rescue, and the logistical support for those operations. It seems we are scaling down for the bare necessities, and by that I mean showing a small presence, not providing the proper means to actually defend ourselves or participate in joint operations with NATO allies. If your not part of any of that, I don't think you should be kept around.

I'm not saying that I agree with the present situation, because I don't. But with the role our military plays, the Snowbirds are more evil then good. We don't have the money for it.

[Disturbance]

I always think of it like one of those girls that needs a lot makeup to look pretty but you only see the true face underneath when you take it all off and often times the two are drastically different.

[towhey]

The CF is currently unable to sustain 48,000 regular force personnel with a permissive manning level of 60,000.

Now is not the time to cut back on marketing efforts.

The Snowbirds are an excellent marketing and public opinion influence tool. I have yet to meet anyone walking away from a Snowbirds demonstration who didn't think the Canadian Forces was awesome.

I'm a groundpounder by trade, and have a lot of reasons to dislike Snowbirds pilots -- but they would be the last air force unit I'd cut. It would be like cutting our own throats.

[TonyM]

Sure keep the Snowbirds but let them use some of the mothballed (24?) CF-18's, then see what kind of "marketing" they could scare up. Nothing like an 1:1 aircraft for fancy flying. Best CF aerial display was that Cpt in that red CF-5 that used to perform before the Snowbirds. Never seen anyone fly so fast & smooth, high energy/low loading. Wonder what ever happened to him. Sure did upstage everyone. I like airshows, yeah they're useless, but so is almost everything that's just plain fun. Ever watch the RCMP musical ride?

[FNG]

Problem with using the CF18s is that it's much more expensive. They have higher fuel consumption, and greater maintenance costs.

The reason the planes are mothballed is because we can't afford to fly them, not for a lack of qualified aircrew. Their high performance and advanced avionics are not needed for airshows.

Also, with the airframe fatigue problem found in the CF18s last year, using them for a high tempo op like a full year of airshows and practices will probably kill the jets very quickly.

I do agree with keeping the snowbirds though. Canadians like the image of CF members all being peaceful humanitarians. The snowbirds and the skyhawks certainly show them the skill and professionalism of CF personnel without exposing the public to the REAL purpose of why we exist.

[Quimby]

I would agree with keeping the Snowbirds if Canada had enough money and aircraft to effectively complete its necessary missions, such as search and rescue and commitments overseas. We all know the situation with outdated Labourador helicopters used for rescue missions at great risk to the crews flying them. And the overseas missions Canada should be a greater contributer to but isn't due to lack of functioning aircraft.
As for marketing the CF, other than recruitng for the airforce is there really much the Snowbirds are good for? I don't think the airforce is having trouble attracting potential pilots. A friend of mine went last year to do the testing for airforce pilots and said there were hundreds of applicants for a couple positions. I think the marketing value of the Snowbirds is exaggerted in the sense that there has never been a problem attracting recruits who want to be pilots and I doubt the Snowbird demonstrations translate into many more recruits to the trades that really need them, such as the combat arms.
I would like to know how many recruits the CF loses due to the gross incompentence of the recruiting system. I've had way easier time dealing with the Brits and their overseas recruiting office than I did with CF recruiters when I joined up here. My point is that the value for money spent for the Snowbirds is not that great.

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An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

[TonyM]

Q, I think you're right. Do the Snowbirds increase recruiting? Results of recruiting in say the last 10 years would indicate no. Some Bay St whizzo will surely come up with stats saying that's not so (for a princely sum) but marketing and advertising are things we (western civilization) tend to rationalize as necessary. Like having an affair with a supermodel, completely irrational. Unless you're the one doing her. Do we need the Snowbirds? No. Do we want them? Of course. What do they do for recruiting? In reality, not much. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The people you have try to convince to join the CF are NOT the people you want in the CF. The people you want are the ones who grew up playing soldiers (or sailor, pilot, etc). Read all the WWII books in the school library, saw the movies (I hated it when John Wayne gets killed right at the end by the sniper in Guadalcanal), put a cardboard tube on their bike to make it into a tank, etc. It would be far better to have a small force of dedicated members rather than a large one made up of "disenfranchised" complainers.

so speaketh the dinosaur as I waddle into the sunset....

[King]

I'm not saying we shouldn't ever have a team like the Snowbirds, but with our current budget can we afford to have one? If it comes down to guns and boots for soldiers or a recruiting ploy, I would choose the former. Even so, do the Snowbirds do all that much for recruiting? When people see their show do they turn around and say, Wow I guess I'll join the infantry! More likely they see the act and identify themselves with being a pilot and a Snowbird pilot at that. And the Snowbirds can wow all the fans they like, but with our current budget we cannot even fly our full (tiny) fleet of aircraft. So we have limited space open for pilots. Then one has to have the mental appitude to become a pilot as well.

I know half a dozen pilots who don't want to join the CF because of the crappy pay or outdated equipment or low morale or the fact that the country you work for doesn't give a damn. Those are the preceptions I have seen among pilots who already have their licence and have an interest in flying. No one ever told me the Snowbirds were a reason to join (in fact a lot of the time they get bitter and complain about how the American teams have better planes or biger budgets and can do more). There are also rules like not training people to be pilots who have glasses or contacts, which I think is completely stupid. I knew a guy who applied for RMC, had his licence and the grades to get in (wanted to fly the Hornets) but was rejected because he was allergic to fucking eggs and fish.

I think fixing things like pay and outdated equipment and numbers would go a much longer way to boosting recruiting then flash in the pan acts like the Snopwbirds.

[Cole]

Screw it...the last thing Canada needs is for thousands of recruits to be lining up to be fighter pilots, because their chances of becoming one are quite small. Everyone I ever talk to who has contemplated joining the Forces wanted to be a.......
you guessed it, a pilot. With the limited budget, flying time, and number of planes, pilots are our last concern.
How about some sort of "combat display team" or a "assault demonstration team," with infantry, guns and tanks. Maybe that would drum up more recruits for areas in more need of manpower (are the combat arms the most short in manpower right now?) I think a high speed display by army forces would probably give a better representation of what we do than some acrobatic airplanes, and then the money is better spent towards recruiting.

[E19]

I like the snowbirds...they help keep our taxes low here in Florida!

[TonyM]

E19, you got that right! If those snowbirds were used as a recruiting tool, we'd have 50% of the population joining up. "Sign here, laddie. Once you serve your 10 years, we give you a condo in Orlando and 2 mexicans to work for you". And yeah, only 50% would join because the other 50 is already there!! Ha! "Hey, Conchita, pass the suntan oil and mix up some more pina coladas, muy pronto!"

[TonyM]

Ahhh...Puerto Rico. Hienekin Jazz Festival weekend on Carolina Beach, Lupi's Sports Bar for good fajitas and (of all things) live reggae. Another good place to be a snowbird.