The look of our army

[Disturbance]

I have been thinking about this for a while now. I know a lot about the views of our army from the enlisted views and from the ACTUAL reality of the state of our army, so I was just wondering at which point does the view change from 'our army is in the shits we should fix it' to 'everything is ok,lets cut back some more'?
Is it only at Art's and the very top brass's level or are the junior officer's brainwashed to think like that to?
Is there kind of a vague area like are there senior officers that are doing their damndest to change things?

I know our government is a major factor invovled but that could be a whole other thread about funding and stuff.

You would think that with more of the reality shown through the press - people higher up would be more inclined to change things than trying to hide everything and just put on a fake face. Try not to go off on a tangent about funding and stuff I just wanna know about the ignorance http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

-Disturbance

[towhey]

Good question.

In 1989, I was at a psychological low point in my Army career (Captain in an RSS role in BC). I was planning to get out at the end of my short engagement, since there didn't seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel.

Then, I was sent to Staff School in Toronto. The best thing about this course was that senior Army, Air Force and Navy commanders (including the Army, Navy and Air Force Commanders!) as well as the CDS came to talk to us and -- more importantly -- to answer questions.

I was shocked, and delighted, to discover something that was completely unexpected. They got it. They shared the same frustrations, anger and disappointments I did. They spoke frankly, in a privilveged platform where everyone agreed never to repeat their words.

It was one of the most motivating experiences of my career. You could see these guys (and they were all guys at that time) were pained by the hoops they needed to jump through. They shared our ideas about what needed to be done.

However, they also shared with us the realities of life in the big leagues. The then pressing and, frankly, strategic threat of the national deficit. It was critically important to the national security of our country that we not go broke. It still is.

In order to win the most important wars, they needed to sacrifice some of the small battles.

I imagine it's much the same now. It is difficult to understand someone else's job until you've done it. I don't agree with many of the strategic decisions taken at high levels in DND, but I do believe that everyone there is doing his/her best and has the best interests of the military in mind.

I'd love to have parade squares full of tanks and fields full of helicopters, strategic airlifters and even a few transport ships. But, someone has to stay focused on the small battles.

And, while it is the role of the CDS to advise the public on professional military matters, there have been few CDS in recent years who have been willing to make a public statement at odds with the government's positions. I think this is a mistake. However...

However, at lower levels in the chain of command, one of the key principles that makes a military effective is, was and always will be: loyalty -- up, down and sideways. If you're told to do something stupid, and you're convinced it must be done, then you pass on the order as if it was yours, refuse to broke dissent and lead the charge into the machine gun spray.

You undoubtedly see a lot of that from good officers and NCO's. The ones who grumble about how stupid an order is are not likely to be the "best of breed."

VP

[Disturbance]

wow thanks man, I was hoping I would hear something like that.

Keep it coming guys I like to hear what you guys have to say.

once again thanks TOwhey!

-Disturbance out

[Cree Warrior]

I must say that I have met some outstanding officers that were "higher ups".
One thing that we suffer from in Canada is an overabundance of criticism of the military. The military is no different than any other organization in that it always needs to be bettering itself and overcomming it's weaknesses. The media in Canada however likes to pick on the military (cause it has sometimes been an easy story) and over expose our weaknesses. The majority of us pick up on this over and over and also indulge in armchair leadership. If the media covered more positive stories on the military, you can bet there would be alot more positive discussion on these boards ad in the platoon AO's of the forces. I have to admit I am a prime perpetrator of this myself.
If any of you were to write about a civy job where you had worked you can bet there would be just as much dessention and criticism within its employees in its staffrooms.
My cure for this...? More high speed schools!!! (By the way thats my cure for everything that ails the CF).
Its like giving the disgruntled computer employee the weekend course in some new program, the course that doesnt really help him do his job better, but sure makes him feel better.

Hey you guys have to admit that the Canadian military, for all its drawbacks, is doing an incredible job in a country that is largely indifferent or completely against its very excistence.

Sua Sponte

[Barney]

As Mark already noted, there really isn't a great deal of ignorance. Or, at least not as much as Mr Taylor would have the Canadian public see. I spent 4 yrs Cl B/A as Ops O and Adjt. HQ was always the enemy. They never had a clue, were always hoarding the dough to get new office furniture etc. Now, I work in Ottawa at an HQ, and I'm the enemy. Only now, I see a different picture.

I see 14 units I plan for, all needing money, eqpt, personnel, trg. I see elements of the 'Big Budget', and sometimes where the money goes. If you've ever complained about lack of med pers in the CF, I know why we can't get them, or keep them in.

Everything becomes an incredibly complex web of current versus long term priorities and plans. I work with an extremely well educated, and highly motivated group, who are pushing the envelope as far as possible to get more for the Med Res units. But, sometimes earthquakes happen, and that takes money, UN ops take money, Docs get pay raises. Pretty soon, the pot of gold isn't quite so bottomless.

I get great suggestions from NCO's across the country. Kick ass opportunities that would improve retention, trg, morale etc. Then, I do a rough budget and tell the boss "here's a great idea, and it'll only cost $250,000 per year" (to put two permanent Cl B Cpl positions rotated on a 4 or 6 month basis in each Bde for Med A's to get clinical experience). Answer, 'great idea, if we can get the money...'

Sorry for the long winded post, but it is always an uphill battle to tell NCOs and Offrs in units that people do remember they exist, and are trying to help. It's just a matter of must do, versus nice to do.

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Death to the Purple One

[Disturbance]

the longer winded the better http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

thanks guys......keep replying

[King]

Anyone catch the interview on The National on CBC tonight? Had Gen. Baril on, appears that he is retiring. They adressed issues like corruption and pay and moral and basically gave the General a good pat on the back for a job well done. They didn't however, address low training standards or lack of high speed courses or anything like that.

[Disturbance]

I dont get it. I mean replies like the ones you guys have been giving are good, kinda makes me feel a wee bit better about what I am about to do. But then I read a reply like Quimby's on the other thread and I am just like ahh man and I feel bad. I mean I know I am making the right decision about serving here rather than the states, but I hate second guessing myself. I dunno maybe I am waiting for someone to tell me what the right thing to do is or if I am doing the right thing cause the way it is now no one I know understands what the hell I wanna do it for and I am totally solo

[Barney]

I can't deny that training has been drastically cut, or that some of the fun is gone. I also can't tell you that dishonesty or lack of personal honour don't exist at all rank levels. We also don't have, and probably never will have, anything as high speed as the SEALS, or SAS etc.

I can say what joined for: I joined for several reasons: Dad was Artillery, High School friends were in unit, roomies at McMaster were all in unit, and importantly - really cute Finance Clerk I wanted to hang out with (short story - I was enrolled as an Officer Cadet, and was made her officer - ruling out any personal contact - damn!).

Why do I stay - again, for many reasons. Primarily, there was the social aspect - good friends that I've gone through a lot with. Loyalty to my troops also helped - call me extremely arogant, but I felt that nobody could look after them like I could, so I never wanted to let go of them. As you go up in rank, the pay really rocks, and that helps. Fun was a big motivator, as was personal challenge - how many of my childhood friends can fire an M72, or have ever coordinated 14 ambulances during a real situation involving multiple casualties.

Again, I won't deny problems, they exist, and we see them every day. My biggest beef is CF procurement strategies - if it's not made by Western Star, or Bombardier, we can't buy it. And, as an Officer, my 'Fun Factor' has declined slowly with time in, and advancement.

However, should you become a MCpl or Sgt, or an Officer, you may find that you do begin to belive that your troops are the most important thing, and that you want to be there to watch out for their careers, training, employment, etc.

In the end, all I can say, is take the chance and join. Your friends, and even your family, may question you, but the decision is yours. You will find cynics, and fools, people who constantly prove Darwin was wrong. But, you'll also meet some of the most intelligent, capable, and dedicated people in this country. Stay with them, and model yourself after their example. Volunteer for every training weekend, tasking, course, or opportunity that comes by. Work hard to go up the ladder, and become a leader.

In the end, you'll have experiences that they can't match. You'll know where your personal limits lie, and how much BS you can handle. We're not perfect, but the Yanks et al also have serious problems, and the grass only appears greener on the other side. Keep on the board, and let us know how it's going with the process.

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Death to the Purple One

[towhey]

Lack of "high speed" courses: If, by "high speed" you mean Rambo courses, that's right the CF has few of them and it's a good thing. If you want to be Rambo, you should take dance classes, human expression, drama and art history in school -- and be an actor like Sly Stallone. Real soldiers are not Rambos.

In my 14 years as an infantry officer, I had amazing experiences and did some reasonably "high speed" stuff, in my opinion. I also worked alongside US Special Forces, JTF-2 folks, SAS, Spetsnaz (in Mozambique, post Cold War) and RCMP Emergency Response Teams.

The one consistent quality that all special forces folks had that I will share with you (and then forever shut up about them again) -- is that NONE of them were Rambo types.

Sure, the Canadian Airborne Regiment, in its last few years, began to attract Rambos. That's what killed them. Fact is, Rambo was a shitty soldier.

All of the many special ops folks I've worked with were generally quiet, unassuming, fit but not "SuperFit", intelligent, without ego. They have to be. Lean cuisine guys don't survive well in the Arctic for a week without food. Big ego guys don't survive for a lifetime without telling everyone how "high speed" they are.

When JTF-2 was formed, the battalions picked out their toughest, jockest, Rambo-est ex-airborne and 'borne wannabes -- and sent them to selection. They all came back. After a year or so, JTF realized they weren't getting the candidates they needed, so they developed a recruiting program. The guys who succeed are, generally, solid well-balanced soldiers who don't stand out in a crowd.

I confess that I chuckle at those in this forum who scream 'I want to be JTF-2/special ops' ... How long would they last? Most are not even in the military yet and they can't stop shouting to the world what they want to be. Imagine being there... being on the team... and never telling anyone about it! It would kill them.

I don't want to discourage anyone. Special Ops is a legitimate and worthy career aspiration for anyone. So is command of a rifle section, infantry platoon, medical company, etc. But, if Special Ops is the ONLY reason you want to join the military, you should probably pursue a different career. After all, your career is likely to be 20 years or so. Out of that, you may do 4 years on JTF-2.

If you want to be an operator, become a good soldier first. Because good operators are drawn from the ranks of good soldiers -- people who, generally, didn't join to be operators. They joined to be good soldiers, to learn to stand alongside others, lead men and women into battle if required and to be the last, best option for a nation in need.

Good luck to you!

mark.towhey@towhey.com

[This message has been edited by towhey (edited 03-07-2001).]

[TonyM]

I'll give you some good advice. Join. If you like it, stay. If not, quit. The secret to life is the "doing" not the wondering if... I get a real kick out of seeing old friends after years. "So, how's it going? What you been up to?" , "Well if you got a few hours, let me tell you about the time I was....".

[Quimby]

Disturbance, don't let my ranting put you off joining up. It's always better to know first hand how things are rather than relying on the bitter opinions of people like me.
On the plus side the social life in the CF is great. In fact, for myself, I've just about lost touch with most of my civvie friends because they bore the living piss out of me. If you're a student the money is pretty good if you show up for every exercise, parade night and optional work days. As an example, I just finished my drivers course and combined with parading at every possible opportunity I cleared just over a thousand dollars in February. Not too bad for a college student. And with a ten day exercise in March down in the States that will bring in about another thousand dollars. So from a money point of view the reserves ain't to bad as long as it's not your sole source of income.
In regards to courses, by high speed I'm not talking about special forces underwater knife fighting stuff. I'm talking about the lack of basic infantry type courses. In the past 2 years all that's been offered are drivers and comms. Good courses to have but not the reason people join the infantry. The courses troops want are recce, pioneer, machine gun, mortars and jump school. All of which are pretty hard to come by. And shouldn't be. None of the guys in my unit have any illusions about being "Rambo" types. We just want a chance to do something we can take a little pride in. The current Ql2/3 doesn't instill that pride, nor do piss easy exercises or low speed drivers and comms courses.

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An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

[FNG]

Mr. Towhey did raise a very good point though Quimby, sure the courses are nice to have, but in reality, how many soldiers in a battalion will be in platoons that specialize in those tasks?

We have 1 platoon of recce, 1 of assault pioneers, 1 mortar platoon, and perhaps one company of airborne infantry in each battalion. Whereas there are three to four companies of riflemen per battalion.

Here is a question I would like you to seriously consider. Does it make sense to train every other soldier to be a recce, airborne, pioneer and sniper? With everyone in a recce platoon or pioneer platoon, who will be left as riflemen?

I used to complain about lack of highspeed courses as well, but since I have started JLC pre-study, I have also realized that there is a lot of things to learn in a rifle company.

There is nothing wrong with being a rifleman in the infantry. Just ask any of the Recon Marines or Scout/Snipers over at USMCNET. Take pride in your trade. If there aren't very many highspeed courses, then just suck it up and take those other courses. There is always a need for communicators and machine gunners. You don't need courses to be highspeed... you can be just as highspeed as a rifleman if you work hard at it.

...end rant.

[TonyM]

How many soldiers need to be pioneer, sniper, recce, etc? As many as possible. We (reserves) can't call up the recce platoon or the sniper section, or a pioneer platoon if we need someone with those skills because there're aren't any (yeah, I know, my grammar sux). Consequently we don't train in realistic scenarios because we don't have the supporting units, hence excercises becoming mostly "notional". "OK, this is where in real life we'd have the pioneers go in and....", etc, etc. If say 25% of the force were qualified in specialized tasks along with their regular roles, training and excercises would be far more interesting and valuable. Of interest, the Canadian infantry manual states that "All Infantry Battalions will keep a reserve of 2 qualified snipers per coy in addition to the tasked personnel.." That's good thinking, too bad it's not implemented.

[FNG]

Granted that it would be good to have those support elements actually getting out there and doing their job during an exercise; but that is also unrealistic when a reserve regiment can get a platoon out at most on a tactical ex.
If only 30+ soldiers can be mustered, how many are going to be diverted off to form recce dets? How many to the pioneer sections?
When we are talking about unit exercises, it is hard to implement or use such specialist units without seriously depleting the core rifle platoon/coy out of the exercise as well. Hence the command staff may simply consider the recce/pioneer or mortar missions to be exercises without troops.
A more viable solution is to have brigade exercises where each unit provides their own rifle sections and platoons to form a full company, and then have the units with appropriate recce or pioneer taskings provide a platoon of such specialists for the exercise.
I believe that this is the system we currently use, but I don't think these brigade exercises happen only take place once or twice a year.

[Cree Warrior]

...legs

Sua Sponte

[Quimby]

How about using the more advanced courses as motivation for the troops to parade on a regular basis? I have paraded on every possible occasion this training year, including all the optional and unpaid events as well as putting in time working for the mess. What is my reward for all this? Sweet FA. Possibly a summer tasking as a driver, but I'm not counting on it.
Others have already voted with their feet and have left after being disappointed by the lack of employment and courses. Anything the CF can do to increase retention should be looked at. What's the point of recruiting and training a troop only to have him leave in disgust after one training year.
Advanced courses would instil much needed pride in the troops and give less senior troops something to strive for.
As well, within our unit we have senior soldiers who have some of these courses from back in the day when it was still possible to get them and they are fountains of knowledge for those of us who don't. Much of what the pioneer course covers is directly related to what we do in Fibua training. Anything that increases the overall knowledge of a unit must be viewed as a positive. People who take the advanced courses don't keep that information for themselves alone.

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An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

[FNG]

I'm curious... is the MG course actually that difficult to come by in other parts of the country?
Also, what sort of training are you guys doing on parade nights? Quimby is definitely right that those who have the knowledge should be passing on the skills to others in their units.

[Quimby]

In BC, to the best of my knowledge an MG course hasn't been offered in over 2 years. There is one scheduled for this summer, but that remains to be seen.
Our training nights usually consist of some type of Fibua training, as we have a couple old buildings in our camp that are perfect for this type of training. Other than that it is usually work on patrolling and ambushing.

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An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

[Disturbance]

I wish I could be sharing beers with you guys , listening to what you guys have to say rather than typing on this stupid thing. I am a firm beleiver that honesty and respect go hand in hand and I have nothing but respect for you guys.


The way I kinda look at it is that basically my whole life I have had it pretty cushy, I live in a huge house in the best part of vancouver and I have the basement to myself (no rent), I take two classes at UBC, I work at a super easy job (retail), I have pretty girls to talk to all the time and my friends are unmatched,I go out and do whatever I want and its great. I could not have asked for it better. I just think that I could appreciate it better or kind of repay my debts to this life if I live with it not so great for a while. If I go and work my work my way up from the bottom of the shitpile then only a better person I can become. This is just one of the reasons of why I feel this is something I need to do. And I feel I am totally prepared to do so.

-Disturbance

[Marauder]

When I was talking to the contact WO in the Reg I plan on joining (after my interview tommorrow; already passed the med and fit tests http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif)I worked up the nerve to ask him if there was any chance of getting some of those high-speed courses, as well as airborne. He kinda grimaced and explained it to me thus: First off, airborne training is extremely rare now-days, and is a grinder physically. So only the best candidates from any formation are considered. Secondly it comes down to money for him. He thinks it is more cost effective for the OC to have the training NCMs do group training stuff (movement, ambushes, fieldcraft stuff) that will benefit the whole regiment than to pay a crapload for one joe to to go to a course that he **MAY** not be able to complete. So again, it comes back to the benjamins, for good or **BAD** (which gets my vote).
He also explained to me that for something like the MG course, they will, during training nights, actually do the "bookwork" sorta stuff, and then when they go down to the States to do FIBUA down at Fort DamnICantRememberItsName, do the actual shooting part to get qual'd. So, the creativity that lack of funds forces these guys to adapt amazes me and just gave me more incentive to join. But more money never hurts, IMHO.
Speaking of cash, is any of this $600M the gov is giving to the Forces to upgrade pay and equipment and such going to wind up in the pocket of yer average PVT and CPL? Or this gonna be incentive to hold onto pilots and docs and generals (pppht)?
Mr. Towhey, any advice on how I can help to make my unit the best I can besides doing my damndest to learn everything I can and working hard with the skills I learn? Are most O's and NCMs receptive to well thought out suggestions from the ranks?

[Enfield]

Originally posted by Marauder:
Are most O's and NCMs receptive to well thought out suggestions from the ranks?

Depends on the situation. In my experience, if your a corporal with lots of experience (like many years in, or a tour) higher-ups will listen in just about any situation.
But a private...? Keep your mouth shut, and spoke when spoken too.
After ex's, and on courses, various higher-ups always wander over to us junior ranks and ask a few questions (from the CO, to the RSS Staff, to various other O's and NCO's) and they always want honesty.


Enfield

[This message has been edited by Enfield (edited 03-08-2001).]

[Marauder]

Thanks for setting me straight, Enfield. Better to learn this stuff before I open my trap and insert my foot. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif
Hope the weather's warmer out your way. Blue skies to ya, man.

[Reverend B]

FNG....I cannot believe that you are going onto your JNCO....you sound like you should be going onto some wanker pogue officer course. What is the point of having up-to-speed trained troops in your section/platoon/company/etc??? Does someone really even have to answer that?? Perhaps you should be thinking about joining a motor rifle regiment with that line of thinking.

[TonyM]

Cree posted:

"..legs"


HA! Right On!

[towhey]

>>Marauder asked: "...is any of this $600M the gov is giving to the Forces to upgrade pay and equipment and such going to wind up in the pocket of yer average PVT and CPL?"

My guess would be yes. At least in the regular force. During the lean years in the 90's the first and largest pay raises all went to the junior ranks -- even though officers' pay had fallen further behind the benchmarks than had junior ranks. Only recently, have officers and WO's pay rates been increased. Junior ranks first is a tradition in the meal lines and on the gravy train -- as well it should be.


>>Marauder asked: "... any advice on how I can help to make my unit the best I can besides doing my damndest to learn everything I can and working hard with the skills I learn?"

You've hit the nail on the head. Work hard, study hard, play hard. Take the job seriously and don't fall into the "wannabe" trap. Being an infantry section rifleman is the most complicated job in the military, bar none. There is always something new to learn, and it takes a lot of time to keep your skills honed.

Riflemen are the generalists of the Army. Specialists are brilliant at a few things. Generalists, like riflemen, must be good at everything.

Be a team player. Watch your buddies' backs. Listen more than you talk. Don't try and impress anyone with what you say -- impress them with what you do quietly, without fanfare. Observe the SAS motto: "deeds, not words".

Every regiment, every battalion, every company, platoon and section is nothing more than the sum of the soldiers who fight for it. Be the best soldier you can be and help your teammates be the best they can be.

That's how you can make your unit the best you can be.


>>Marauder asked: "Are most O's and NCMs receptive to well thought out suggestions from the ranks?"

Yes. That being said, if you're new to the business, my guess is that you'll be busy enough learning the basics that you won't have much time to give a lot of thought to how to improve things.

Like I said, soldiering is the most complex business I've found -- and I'm now a high falutin' business consultant. It takes time to learn it well and get good at it.

But, the reward -- ah, the reward. Most soldiers don't realize this, but the general management, leadership and problem solving skills you'll learn in the infantry will makes an MBA pale by comparison. You will learn how people think and what motivates them to do things. There is no skill more valuable in the world -- if you remember you've learned it!

Good luck and be proud. There's a lot folks around who complain that they're not helo-casting. I wonder how good they are at the important skills?


>>Cree said: "...legs" All I can say is: "Wannabe"

[This message has been edited by towhey (edited 03-08-2001).]

[Reverend B]

Towhey: Perhaps there are some crossed wires here in this discussion. I think that perhaps I am seeing it from the motivation and cross-training that higher-speed courses mold soldiers into. No-one joins the infantry to fix a radio as they drive a truck. You curiously quote an SAS saying in the reference to this topic...but are those guys line infantry NAP soldiers, or are they motivated, cross-trained soldiers? Where does the cross-training in a unit come from in the 'generalist" view? From the boys that have pioneer, mg, recce, mountain ops, etc. It comes from people that have gone places, and done things.

[towhey]

Reverend B: I guess what I'm saying is don't place too much emphasis on courses. I've been a lot of places and done a lot of things -- some of them even "high speed" !!! *gasp*

But, the most exciting, challenging and rewarding training I did -- never happened on a course. It happened in unit training. That's where there's room for imagination and creativity. Not on a course.

Likewise, the hairiest, bejeesusest operations I've been on drew heavily on my general, combat-fighting, follow-me infantry leading skills. Not on anything I learned earning a merit badge.

If someone is keen to take a recce course because you think it'll be exciting, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. Will you learn good skills? Yes. Should you jump at the chance to take one? Yes. Will you learn the same skills if you serve in a good rifle section for a year? Absolutely.

But, you should jump at the chance to take ANY course. Or to participate in ANY exercise or unit training. Experience is what makes folks high speed.

Some Fast Facts --

Fact: Airmobile ops are a lot of fun. Fact: They're performed by line infantry

Fact: Most recce patrols are performed by infantry who have not taken the recce course.
Fact: You will learn more about recce patrols on the ISCC than on the recce course.

Fact: Machine Gun skills are line infantry skills. Every soldier should have them. I agree this is one "must have" course for an infantryman with career potential.

Fact: Probably fewer than 50 (much, much fewer) people qualify advanced mountain ops in the entire CF every year. Given that there is only one infantry unit (RM Rang) anywhere near real mountains, that's not bad. Would it be fun to take? Yes. Did I ever take it? No. Am I a qualified Cliff Rescue Team Leader anyway? Yes.

Re: the SAS quote -- I've worked with SAS and they're good guys. But, they're not the jock-rambo types who wannabe. And, they were all experienced line soldiers (not all infantry) for years before they passed selection. (And, they can all fix a radio while driving a truck!)

The SAS motto is also universally applicable and has nothing to do with special operations.

The bottom line: You don't need a "merit badge" to be "high speed"! Don't wait for a MG course to teach you how to use a C6 in the SF role -- read the PAM and ask your sectoin commander if you can do some unit training. Don't wait for a recce course to teach you how to navigate -- get a map and compass, read the book and teach yourself on your own time.

The motto of the infantry is Ducimus: "We lead" Don't wait to be led.

[FNG]

Reverend B: All I can say is that I'm here to learn. What I had said is my explanation of why I think more high speed courses and training is not as readily available. Think of it as playing devil's advocate if you will. That does not mean I am not motivated to attend, or provide (when I am qualifed) highspeed training to others. One reason I am so interested in attending JNCO is because I wish to one day pass on my love of infantry work to other new soldiers, and to give them the best training possible.

As I said, I learn new things everday, and as a result, my views on things also change slightly on a day to day basis based on things that I learn. I need well experienced people like you to point me in the right direction when I go stray, and I think you have done that. Thank you.

Now let me try to clarify my previous statement about having up to speed troops in a unit. The intention of the question is to point out that soldiers must have a good foundation of basic infantry skills first before proceeding to attend more advanced courses, not that they should not have any advance training at all. It was argued poorly, but perhaps we can let the discussion go on from here.

[Reverend B]

OK....I do not have a lot of time right now...Towhey & FNG: How far will any non-CF courses take you? Not far in the CF. I taught the lads some jap-slapping one night, and because I was not "unarmed combat instructor" qualified, I was getting phoned at home to get jacked. One of the instructors, who is a civvie rappelling freak set up a rappel sight because the schedualed training was fucked up. He got jacked because he was not "mountain ops" or "rappel master" qualified. The list could go on. Yes, it is important to drive trucks and fix radios, but any knuckle head can drive a vehicle, and radio should be taught on QL2, and they shouldn't be the only courses that are taught to the troops as 4's. No-one even wants these courses beacause they'll get stuck as padre's or OC's driver,or signaller, when the rest of the boys are doing the fun stuff.
I'll rant and rave more later.

[Enfield]

Courses are good for a couple reasons: They give us skills that we need, but with that said those skills will not realize their full potential without in-unit practice and on the job learning. Doing th eMG course did not make me an expert gunner, it gave me the basic skills to use the MG in the unit and THAT is what will make me an expert gunner. Same for Recce and any other course.
Secondly, they give us employment!! And that is very, very, very important...

Personally, I think something like Jump Courses are wasted on the Reserves - what the hell is a reservists going to do with that? He'll never jump again. But we can always use more basic skills and quals.

Us troops avoid Driver's like the plague...don't want to be the poor sap who has to drive the truck for the ex. Then again, if more guys had drivers maybe the same guy wouldn't get the shaft everytime. Spread the punsihment around a little...

Anyways, don't give the troops Jump and Underwater Knife Fighting, give us relevant courses. Then again, high-speed looking stuff like heliborne ops or desert/jungle/mountain/arctic warfare SHOULD be part of training.

Enfield

[towhey]

Rev B: Sounds like your unit (which, if it's infantry and you're in Nanaimo, I know well) has bigger problems than access to courses.

The fact that you and the other instructor were reprimanded AFTER leading what was considered inappropriate training is telling. If your unit leadership was on the ball, they would have stepped in to prevent such training BEFORE the fact.

I don't disagree. Recce is a great course. Para is a great course. So are pioneer, mortar, anti-armour, driver wheel, driver track, communicator, sniper, combat diver, mountain ops, etc. But...

A good unit should be conducting exciting training regardless. And, most of the skills needed to be a kick-ass infantryman are learned through experience and unit training -- not on courses.

Keep the faith. Deas gu Gath!

[Cole]

I still like the idea of some sort of Advanced Infantry Course for a QL4...perhaps taking in some above remarks, maybe every summer a reserve unit will post an entire section if possible to go away on course and refine their skills as a unit. I still believe that the unit lives and dies as a whole.
"High Speed" courses should be offered to soldiers in a high speed unit. The reserve units are line units and should be trained as such. We should be capable of section and platoon ops against an enemy, not deep insertion reconnaisance or airborne assault.
Cree Warrior, you went through the Ranger Course as a requirement to serve in a high speed unit, the 75th. Enfield was correct, airborne courses are useless for reservists who serve in line units.
To be honest, I joined the reserves as an infanteer full knowing that I would not be a sniper or a CT jedi knight. JTF is nowhere in the schedule for me, maybe later in the reg force, but I'll deal with that when I get to that point. For now, I'm content on setting the goal of becoming the the best damn infantry man possible and holding up my position on the infantry section.
In regards to retention, I believe that employment is the key to retention. I think that waving a sniper course is liable to get someone through the doors, but it won't keep him in for long when he learns his chance of filling that "high speed" position in the brigade are slim to none.
I feel that summer training would be more successful if it was something like I mentioned above, with all these "lame" courses such as comms and driver, which are important to our trade, are rolled into one and incorporated in a larger infantry unit course.
Just my observations from the bottom of the pile.
Cole


[This message has been edited by Cole (edited 03-09-2001).]

[Enfield]

I've mentioned the idea of an Advanced Infantry Course a couple times too.
How many Reservists are students? A fair percentage of pte/cpl's are students, maybe some 2Lt's as well. That means at least 2 months, or for university up to 5 months, of time off - why not use it and employ them in some meaningful, useful training? Stick'em in the field, and let them do infanry skills all summer. Throw in a QL4 or two (MG? Recce?), maybe some specific training (I course like this would go a long way in developing our FIBUA SOP's which we all find so lacking), and live-fire/range practice. They could be used for enemy force for other courses - but instead of 5 guys and an Iltis you have a real enemy out there.
A big problem seems to be getting employment for that second or third summer - well, here ya go. In one move you have employment, useful and needed training, troops earning qualifications for advancement, and a pool of troops for demo/enemy force. Maybe make it part of being promoted to cpl or full pte.

Enfield

[Barney]

Hmmmm, many years ago, when the pots of gold were larger, there was such a concept. At Petawawa, they had a staff of GD's whose 2 or 4 month summer employment could include things such as enemy force for extended periods.

As with anything, $$$$ has become The Almighty.

What I most want to see in Canada, is a fundamental shift in attitude by senior political and military leadership towards the Reserves. We are the only country in NATO that has its Reserves capped at a level significantly lower than its Regs. Many nations have a larger Res Force than their Reg Force.

We also view the Res as 'individual augmentees' to the Regs where needed. Other countries have their Regs exist to train the Res, and to buy enough time at the front to let the Res mobilize. Israel is a prime example of this, especially during the Yom Kippur war.

However, until our senior leaders adopt this mentality, and release their Reg F empire protectionism, changes will only be glacially slow.

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Death to the Purple One

[FNG]

I definitely like Enfield's idea of an advanced course. Privates can take two QL4s: MG and Comms, both of which are important infantry skills. There can also be a 'pre-JLC' type training for trained privates and junior corporals so that they can take over section 2IC positions if required.
Besides the instruction periods, there can also be a full two week FTX that includes all phases of war, perhaps in run in conjunction with QL3s or JLC and act as their enemy force.

[Enfield]

I think I'll take a stab at Disturbance's original question (a last kick at a dead horse?)
There is no "break" - one does not make Colonel, or get transferred to NDHQ, and suddenly become a self-serving moron. The brass is hampered by a couple of factors; (a) there just isn't any money,
(b) the Canadian public will not take a significant interest in the CF, but at the same time
(c)the CF is probbaly the most important part of Canada's foreign policy (peace keeping, UN, NATO, int'l disaster relief).
This contradiction seriously effects what the brass can do, and what they can do to change those factors is very limited. Personally, I wish the higher-ups would speak out more often, but how much effect that would have given factor (b) I don't know.

I don't know if things are all doom and gloom though. We are in the process of receiving top of the line clothing and personal gear. We have LAV III's. We have state of the art subs and frigates. We have a very high deployment rate for our troops, which I think is a good thing overall. We have world-class specialists in JTF 2, Clearance Divers, and SAR Techs. We have good small arms (hey, we could have SA 80's!) We have F-18's and actually used them. Personally, I think things are actually improving.

For those that know about such things... I've heard that in the 1970's Trudeau combined the civvy side of DND with the military CF structure, which has led to the massive bureaucratic complex called NDHQ and what many believe to be the politicalization (that a word?)of our senior officer corps and the introduction of corporate terms and practices (ex:"Director of Human Resuorces"?) Comments? Views?

And lastly... If I were suddenly CDS, I would try a couple things: One, A formal program of familiarization between elected officials and the CF. Two, organize a PR campaign through a series of documentaries on CBC. Three, produce a viable recruiting plan.

Ok, I'll stop ranting.

Enfield

[Marauder]

One of the things I have heard is that there are too many stars for not enough commands, and that little sub-buraucracies are then set up to give those generals/admirals something to command so they can put in their 20+ to collect their pensions. It seems to *ME* that nowadays we have a lot of generals who are just trying to use their position to monkey in politics. Why not start from the top down, slash NDHQ down to exactly what it needs to function properly, consolidate as many of the admin commands as is reasonable and prudent, and keep the civilian oversight to just that... oversight, and not injecting the current flavour-of-the-day politics into the military structure. I'm sure it would free up not only funds for the guys who will be doing the fighting, but would make new policies run smoother, since the idea doesn't need to be washed thru all the current structure.
Just some thoughts to ponder. Am I making any sense?

[Barney]

Enfield, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. Many of our problems do stem from the fact that the civilian Dept and the military Forces were amalgamated. This resulted in civilians possessing 'rank equivalent'.

And, as many of the senior-most civilians were political appointees, and had input into senior military promotions, it politicized the forces. That is, to become a senior officer, one had to ensure that they kissed the right political butt. The end result is that most of the old senior officers were more politician/party man than military leaders.

I imagine that Mark Towhey went through a lot of this and could comment as the voice of experience.

On the other hand, you're right that we are getting some fine swag. We've bought some great items lately, and more are on the way. Unfortunately, as I'm Cl C at CF Med Grp HQ, I'm not entitled to any of it, bummer but understandable - give it to troops first. There are issues in the major purchases that still piss me off though - EH 101, LUVW.

Marauder - Why do we have a 4 leaf and all the subordinate Gen/Adm? It's a legacy from our larger days, combined with a political factor. Remember our former size (Reg and Res) during the heydays of NATO. We had a respectable committment, and that meant we wanted to excercise command & control influence at the big NATO table. Problem was, that all the big boys brought 4 Stars etc. So, we did the same.

It's now just a reminder of our glory days, and it carries right down to your unit. Can anyone tell me why a CO of 139 troops should be a LCol? A Maj or outstanding Capt could handle it.

My only negative comment here, is that while we have slashed the senior ranks over the past 10 yrs, rank creep, and the creation of more Depts seems to be occurring. Again, any thoughts Mark?

Questions...Queries....Catachisms?

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Death to the Purple One

[towhey]

Don't get me started, Paul... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

The greatest problem with the Canadian Forces has been the death of the Profession of Arms. The officer corps should be the heart and soul of a vibrant profession. It's not. Professionalism (the big "P" type) is all but dead in the senior officer ranks.

One of the key attributes of a Profession is that it is responsible to society as a whole. Physicians are responsible to society for the management of health care. Lawyers (believe it or not) are responsible to society for the management of justice. The profession of arms is supposed to be responsible to society for the management of violence to meet national aims.

Does the profession of arms in Canada fulfill its obligation to society?

No.

Why? The combination of the CF Headquarters and the Ministry of Defence HQ into NDHQ started the decline. It amalgamated the policy-making role of the Ministry with the war-fighting and advisory role of the Military. It transmogrified uniformed generals into "Assistant Deputy Ministers" -- roles for which they were ill-suited.

When officers are commissioned, they are granted a special authority on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen, to command soldiers -- and they swear to serve her (and the society she represents) well.

When officers are promoted to general rank, they receive a new commission -- wherein they are sworn to obey the Minister (not society, but the government of the day).

How does this impact the management of the military in Canada?

Case in point: The CDS is the top soldier in the land. He/she should be the official spokesperson, not only of the CF, but of the "profession of arms." He/she should regularly be advising our client -- Canadian citizens, through Parliament, on military matters.

However, the CDS is also a de facto "Deputy Minister" -- responsible to the government of the day for policy formulation in order to meet political objectives. BIG RED FLAG!

What should happen: The CDS should advise the Minister of Defence on military matters, what is achievable, what military solutions are available for political needs, etc. For example, if the country needs 300 tanks to accomplish the mandate government has established for it, the CDS should tell government he/she requires 300 tanks. The government, then, is right to say "sorry, no can do -- you can only have enough money for 100 tanks." The CDS should then say "fine, but we can't deliver everything you want, all at once, we'll have to provide a scaled-down solution or a lengthier one."

What does happen (and shouldn't): The CDS knows the CF requires 300 tanks, but is also intimately involved in the formulation of policy and realizes that the government can only afford 100 tanks. So, the CDS "advises" the government that the CF needs 100 tanks and proposes a second-rate solution in the first place.

This is like having your doctor tell you "go ahead and keep smoking, it'll be fine" because he knows you're going to do it anyway.

One of the proudest moments of the Somalia affair was the press conference wherein the CDS publicly stated that he had advise the Minister not to dismantle the Airborne regiment, because there was no military need to do so. He was right. The Minister then, immediately announced that, notwithstanding the CDS' advice, he was dismantling the Airborne because there was a pressing political need to do. He was also right.

That's exactly how it's supposed to work. However, I was shocked to find most of my fellow officers aghast. They felt, generally, that the CDS should never have expressed publicly an opinion counter to the Minister. And, given that he had, they felt he should immediately resign.

Do you fire your doctor because he won't tell you what you want to hear? I hope not.

The CDS should regularly disagree with government. That's his/her job. Then, he/she should get on with the business of doing what he/she is told to do anyway. A Professional must keep giving his/her client sound advice even if he/she knows the client won't take it.

The principal reason Canadian governments make stupid decisions on military affairs, is because generals give them stupid advice. The CDS and his staff give the government the advice they think the government wants to hear.

The blind lead the blind.

A really negative sounding post. The heartwarming factor in all of this is that I'm convinced everyone at NDHQ, even the CDS, has his/her heart in the right place. They're all trying to do the right thing and, generally, succeeding.

We don't know how much disagreement occurs behind closed doors. If the military culture would mature enough to allow public discussion, it would -- no doubt -- find brilliant solutions to many of its problems. But, that will take time. Discussion boards like the LFRR board, officially hosted in a public forum by DND itself, are a step in the right direction.

As I said... don't get me started!

Cheers,

Mark

mark.towhey@towhey.com

[Barney]

Oi, I shouldn't have started this.

But, now that I have.... taking your comments further Mark, are we in for a Clausewitzian mess, should an actual conflict start?

In theory, our politicians set the 'objectives' or goals of the conflict. And, the Generals devise strategy to successfully meet the goals. That's why there is supposed to be a separation of the two, right?

So, in Canada, we could be in trouble, as our amalgamation of the CF and MND will in essence lead to group think?

Disturbance, if you're still reading this, don't get discouraged. Every military has some varriant of this problem, especially during peace times. How is your recruitment going? Are you in yet?

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Death to the Purple One

[Disturbance]

barney, I am not gettin discouraged at all. In fact its quite the opposite. See as long I learn more and more from what you guys are saying here then the more I know what to expect and the better off I am. If I was just some yahoo off the street and I never researched anything about the CF then I would prolly be scared shitless about whats gonna happen, but in my case I am not blind to any of it and I am more confident now than I was a long time ago. Understand what I am saying??

As far as my recruiting process. I have the physical test tommorow and because you guys were telling me to make it more challenging by getting drunk or what not the night before I decided to mess up my toe on the weekend so I will be doing it with a slight limp and some pain http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif (I didnt actually do it on purpose). They also (or should be) doing the background check right now and hopefully that will be done within a week. Then all that has to happen is for them to recommend me to the Highlanders and blammo I can finally start.

[Barney]

Bonus! Don't worry if the background check takes a while, it's one of the longest parts of the process. In theory, if there's a backlog, they can enroll you on a 'Conditional Enrollment', so that they get you into the unit on time, while waiting for the paperwork to catch up. Most recruiting offices don't like to do this, but it is possible.

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Death to the Purple One

[Enfield]

Originally posted by Barney:
Oi, I shouldn't have started this.

are we in for a Clausewitzian mess, should an actual conflict start?

In theory, our politicians set the 'objectives' or goals of the conflict. And, the Generals devise strategy to successfully meet the goals. That's why there is supposed to be a separation of the two, right?


I'll take a stab at this...
First off, the Canadian military establishment has inherited the British skill of pulling one's head out of one's arse once the ball drops...

I think we've seen, in Vietnam, the Gulf War, and recent actions in the Balkans that military priorities and targets are set by politicians (well, heavy political input). I think this reflects on the changing nature of warfare and the use of force - it's a big global show, live on TV, and politics have EVERYTHING to do with winning and losing. Towhey called the CF the government's experts on the use of violence, well, everything involving the use of force is political, including how the action is carried out (the placement of every bomb and every bullet has political consequences)

I'm not sure how much this would impact on the day-to-day administration of the CF, but the use of the CF (and any other western military) is certainly influenced heavily by political agendas. The FLQ Crisis, Oka, Somalia, disaster relief ops, etc., were all highly politicized.
Doing research for the pecekeeping paper I mentioned earlier I came across many Parliamentary debates involving passing a law requiring Parliament to review and "Ok" any deployment (into potential harm) of over 100 Canadian soldiers. This seems to me to be an excellent example of "Too much" political involvement..

Enfield

PS Good luck tomorrow Disturbance!


[This message has been edited by Enfield (edited 03-12-2001).]

[Marauder]

Disturbance, no worries on the fit test. I had mine a week ago Monday and an asthmatic monkey could do it hungover! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif Have you ever had to do a stairstep test for your senior gym classes? You step up and down two stairs for one three minute set for up to three sets. I barely broke a sweat doing it. Clear 20 pushups (make sure you get low) and twenty situps (I made forty.... is that good?) and you're in. Maybe you'll luck out and get some young hot chick administrating the test like I did. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif
I'm in the same boat as you (just that I have all the tests/interviews/damn dirty paperwork finished http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif). I just have to wait for my background check to come up clean and wait for the Essex Kent Scottish Regiment to gimme a call to let me know I'm in. I haven't gone toooooo stir crazy yet (there's just that damn rut in the floor I'll have to have fixed http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif) but I'm sure I'm in. The only problem was at the interview where the interviewer kept hitting me over the cranium with the ROTP option. I swear that he asked me at least twenty times if I was absolutley certain that I wanted to go the NCM route. Was I aware that the CF would pay for my ed-u-ma-cation if I went the officer route? Did I know I could transfer active straight out of school if I was an officer in the res? Now, I begrudge the good O's not one thing. I have given thought to perhaps trying for a commision.... after having gotten my hands dirty learning the infantry trade from the ground up. It's just my personal thing that I believe that a good leader becomes that way by being able to lead by example, which means having the infantry business down cold before taking on the responsibilites of command and admin and all that extra stuff O's are expected to shoulder. So I figure I'm gonna put in at least one year on the NCM side and then consider my options. Sound like a plan to you guys?
http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif The interviewer actually told me that the Res unit may consider me "overqualified" (because I'm doing pretty well in uni and had a pretty good HS average) for an NCM position and that they may tell me they want me to go ROTP anyhow. Weak scare tactic or what? But other than that he was a nice guy.
So, enough of my rambling. Disturbance, best of luck to ya, not that you should need it (unless for some screwy reason you happen to morph into something less evolved than an asthmatic monkey prior to the test http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif) Keep us informed on the progress, bro.
And Barney, Mr. Towhey, and Enfield, keep the thoughts flowing and keep us young 'uns informed. Now that we have you all "started". http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif Thanks guys!

Damn, the spelling and grammar errors you find after you post something....

[This message has been edited by Marauder (edited 03-12-2001).]

[Disturbance]

Marauder, thats dope man. I dont know where you are but do you think you will be doing your Q2/3 in Wainwright this summer? Cause if all goes well for me on this side we should meet up when that time comes.
Did the hot chick seem young - like 20? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[Marauder]

Sorry Disturbance, me and Wainright are a no- go. I'm in SW Ontario, so it's Camp Borden (or Meaford, or Kingston depending on the info source) for me. Guess I'll know after the unit issues me my orders to go. But hey, I'll keep in mind that I know someone who's going the same thing at the same time out in Alberta.
The chick I had was about 23-24, I'd say. She had a kineseology degree hanging in her office in the Y, but she looked really young. She was hot enough that if I weren't attached, I might have tried to get a phone number (after the test of course http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif) But anyway, good luck, don't sweat it, and follow the instructions about no eating, drinkng, or puffing away before the thing. No need to get tagged on procedural stuff, right? Talk to ya later bro.

[Barney]

Good show Marauder. Your QL2/3 will probably be in Meaford, as the course has been run at ATC Meaford for a few years. Though, I do remember 31 CBG running a few QL2's in London at Wolseley Barracks during the summer.

I did RESO in Gagetown, and loved it (only in hindsight though). There's nothing like a base that's a square about 40 km on a side. When you go on a patrol, you're really in the middle of nowhere!

As for being an Officer, I think you've got the right idea. Do a year or two as a Pte, or Cpl first. Then, see what you think. I didn't go that route, and what I find difficult, is that I don't have the medical background to evaluate my troops during training. My highest qual there is St J's Advanced FA Level II, and I've slowly forgotten most of it (could have really used it a month ago too!). Ah well, that's what I have Sgt's and WO's for! I provide all that is needed to train, and let my NCOs do their job. At least, that's what I did before I went to an HQ.

The two of you can never tell where you're going from here. I never guessed that in my 9 yrs in green, I've been full time for about 5 yrs! I've done many courses that most Health Care Admin officers don't do, and I'm slowly turning it into a pseudo career - though I need to work on my exit strategy!

Something to consider for you two - I don't know what your education is, but if your into Political Studies (can we really call it a science?), or military history - then look into the Masters in War Studies at RMC. It's a two yr program in Kingston. The tuition was only $500 total when I was there (94-96). They do let NCOs into the program, but didn't let them wear their uniform (too much saluting with 100's of officers on campus). Give it a thought - most of the guys & girls in my class have gone on to good jobs!

Good today Disturbance, may the Force be with you young Jedi.

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Death to the Purple One

[garett]

Humm that Master's Program seems interesting. I'm pretty sure I'll major in military history here at UNB (I think its an available major there are enough credit hours). I guess thats something I'll have to look at after I get RESO 1, Phase 2,3,4 out of the way. I'm really glad that I did 2 1/2 years as a private/corporal before becoming an Ocdt. Theres pluses and minuses but its better to be in the ranks for awhile and prove yourself. The good thing about my unit is all the infantry officers were Privates at one point in time.

[Cole]

Hey...I had a hot chick administer my test too! I'm seeing a trend here... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Garett, when did you enter into the RESO program? I guess it is going to be Mr. Garett for now on.

[This message has been edited by Cole (edited 03-13-2001).]

[Marauder]

Damn Cole, I think we just found another tool for recruting! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

[garett]

I put my memo in around mid-September. Then I had an interview with the Platoon Commander, then OC, then I had to write the aptitude test, then the PSO(?) Officer interview, then an interview with the CO, OC, and Adj, then a brigade level interview with 3 officers. What a pain in the ass. I guess its easier for civies to get into RESO off the street. I guess I still have to do the PT test before Pre-RESO starts April 27th.

[Enfield]

Trust me, joining (and stating) for the women is not a new phenomena. For those of you going into a Highland unit, you WILL bless that kilt.... *grin*

There's a speech by the Chief of the and Staff on the DND homepage, check it out. Nothing startling, but I found it a rather honest evaluation of the Army.

[Disturbance]

Alright physical test completed. I only had to two sets of the steptest. 43 situps, about the same pushups, griptest was good. I love that music you get to do the steptest to....up two three down two three up two three... Another wierd thing was cause we did situps first by the time I was around 30 pushups my legs starting to shake from muscle fatigue- I have never experienced that before and at around 42 I think I just starting laughing and then I stopped http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Oh and sorry to break the trend but I had some navy reservist guy administer my test. Needless to say I was http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/frown.gif

So now I gotta wait like a week cause most of the staff is away -obviously, and then hopefully Enfield will be showing me the ropes in person instead of on this stupid computer. Such a relief to have this shit out of the way.

[Barney]

Congrats, as I said, it's just up to the paperwork, which can drag out. Too bad about the Navy guy. Ah well, maybe if you get poison ivy this summer, some cute Medic will rub you down with creams.....

Again, if things go on too long, then ask your unit if they will bring you in on a 'conditional enrollment', I'm sure they could push the recruiting folks to do it, as every unit in Canada is crying for recruits.

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Death to the Purple One

[towhey]

Congrats guys on closing in on your objective.

I think doing some time in the ranks before considering a career as an officer is a great thing. I didn't do it, and don't think it affected my ability to do my job, nor to earn the respect of troops... but, I think in almost every case, some NCM experience is a bonus.

Again, don't get down about the macro-theoretical issues with the CF. As much as we may wish this were that or that was something else, the plain truth of the matter is that at the pointy end, where the rubber meets the road, is where you'll be. Everyone I know who's still soldiering doesn't have time to worry about the theoretical problems -- they're far too busy doing real world soldiering, hard training, and solving problems. Exactly what they joined for.

Whether the CDS should be more adviser and less politician is a pretty moot debate when you're in a rifle section up to your armpits in snakeslime, squishing through the swamp in the middle of a freezing, moonless night on your way to the attack position. Just thinking about it makes me wanne join again!

Go for it. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

mark.towhey@towhey.com