Army Initial Entry Training

[The Old Guy]

Army basic training is being completely reworked this week. Initial work started several months ago on ARM, BRM, and Army Combatives. The core of Basic is undergoing a detailed and strenuous review, lesson-by-lesson, and contact hour by contact hour. The standard two to three year process is being streamlined to a three month process. Everything will be finalized January 11-15, 2010 and implementation beginning in February 2010.

Outcome Based Training (OBT) is gone!!! They are refocusing on building a solid foundation with a set of core strengths (PT, Drill and Ceremony and marksmanship). This is a milestone to conduct change this fast, but this is not the first time. I am seeing entrenched procedures and policies falling by the wayside as we move forward very rapidly. Decisions are being made in record time with the thrust and technique being guided by company grade officers and NCOs with specific guidance given by the three and four-star level commanders.

Good news for the Army, but I believe that Basic Trainings is way tooooooo soft.

[Forgetthisname]

Is this a result of the recession making recruits easier to come by?

[RetPara]

Good news for the Army, but I believe that Basic Trainings is way tooooooo soft.

You've been saying that since flogging was removed from the 'toolbox' of Company Commanders.......:p

We have a number of active Drill Sergeants who could make some real interesting comments....

[RGR.Montcalm]

You've been saying that since flogging was removed from the 'toolbox' of Company Commanders.......:p

We have a number of active Drill Sergeants who could make some real interesting comments....

Flogging was replaced by 'self-strangulation'- as in "Choke yourself, maggot! Not with your hands, you idiot, with mine!"

I was never a Drill (thank you, GOD of Personnel Assignments) but heard this often and observed it more when I was a RIP Instructor. it had a lot to do with the attrition rate at RIP but it also helped to weed out wannabes...

[eyezweat]

Why don't they just add Field-expedient baking with ACU apron?

Back to my corner.:redface:

[okami1]

I was told the only time a DS could lay hands on us was if we were acting stupid with a hot weapon. Which I saw put to good use during BRM.

[CombatMedic1981]

Good news for the Army, but I believe that Basic Trainings is way tooooooo soft.

You'd think with all these people knocking on their door they would make basic harder. I mean one fails another to take his place is easly found. When I went in 99 recruiting sucked so you pretty much had to fuck up in a huge way to get booted.

[KimberChick]

From an outsiders standpoint, I don't see how changing boot camp will change anything if they still go apeshit after they leave and there is no discipline in the ranks....nothing to back it up. Just my thoughts?:confused:

[mrwill]

[QUOTE=KimberChick;1234100] if they still go apeshit after they leave and there is no discipline in the ranks....nothing to back it up. QUOTE]


For instance? Can you elaborate? Am I correct in assuming you are saying there is no discipline when a Soldier arrives at their first unit assignment?

[okami1]

From an outsiders standpoint, I don't see how changing boot camp will change anything if they still go apeshit after they leave and there is no discipline in the ranks....nothing to back it up. Just my thoughts?:confused:

I'm sorry... what?

[Whitebean54]

What are you talking about?

[poison]

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif Uh oh.

[Steve83]

You better be hot.

[Wes]

Is this just being applied to BCT, or also AIT? How does that affect OSUT such as Infantry at Sand Hill?
And I'm yet to figure out how there are Privates graduating AIT and showing up at their units without EVER having passed a PT test.

WLC is also being changed. No PT test or Land Nav anymore.

Oh and here at BNCOC Common Core right now... just informed you may no longer call junior soldiers by just their rank. It is "degrading" and you must use their last name too. This is already being implemented in BCT we were told.

They are taking this "kinder, gentler" thing WAY too far.

[The Old Guy]

Is this a result of the recession making recruits easier to come by?

It has nothing to do with recruiting or the current economic state of the US/world, it has to do with preparing the force for the next conflict.

We have a number of active Drill Sergeants who could make some real interesting comments....

There are numerous DSs involved from across TRADOC as well as 1SGs and Company Commanders involved in the process.

Is this just being applied to BCT, or also AIT? How does that affect OSUT such as Infantry at Sand Hill?

The current mandate is to review the foundation or common core skills necessary which ALL Army recruits must mastered to move forward and perform successfully in the Army at Skill Level 1. MOS is having little factor in the equation.


Yes there continue to be issues with Basic Training, but that is outside the scope that I am currently working.

[EightyDeuce]

And I'm yet to figure out how there are Privates graduating AIT and showing up at their units without EVER having passed a PT test.

Oh and here at BNCOC Common Core right now... just informed you may no longer call junior soldiers by just their rank. It is "degrading" and you must use their last name too. This is already being implemented in BCT we were told.

They are taking this "kinder, gentler" thing WAY too far.

jesus christ, we wouldn't want to hurt their feelings would we?

[Husker19D30]

Is this just being applied to BCT, or also AIT? How does that affect OSUT such as Infantry at Sand Hill?
And I'm yet to figure out how there are Privates graduating AIT and showing up at their units without EVER having passed a PT test.

WLC is also being changed. No PT test or Land Nav anymore.

Oh and here at BNCOC Common Core right now... just informed you may no longer call junior soldiers by just their rank. It is "degrading" and you must use their last name too. This is already being implemented in BCT we were told.

They are taking this "kinder, gentler" thing WAY too far.

So what about calling them 'hero', or 'hollywood', or 'dumbass', or just plain 'C'mere Soldier!'?

[USArmyTC]

Is this just being applied to BCT, or also AIT? How does that affect OSUT such as Infantry at Sand Hill?
And I'm yet to figure out how there are Privates graduating AIT and showing up at their units without EVER having passed a PT test.

WLC is also being changed. No PT test or Land Nav anymore.

Oh and here at BNCOC Common Core right now... just informed you may no longer call junior soldiers by just their rank. It is "degrading" and you must use their last name too. This is already being implemented in BCT we were told.

They are taking this "kinder, gentler" thing WAY too far.

Yeah this kinder gentler shit is waayy beyond me. I have no idea why it is even going on. I am sure someone has a reason somewhere, but it will never make sense to me.

I was in one of the first WLC classes (when it changed from PLDC) in 06 and the land nav portion was still there. However, they basically gave us the answers. It was a joke.

I have heard recently about some Soldiers arriving to their units without even passing their PT test. That completely baffles me. Showing up to a unit and not being able to pass a PT test is the wrong answer...good luck with that!

[Tango Chaser]

Won't get any better until they get rid of coed basic training. That was the start of the weakening of basic training. Marines got that part right.

[Spot379th]

Is this just being applied to BCT, or also AIT? How does that affect OSUT such as Infantry at Sand Hill?
And I'm yet to figure out how there are Privates graduating AIT and showing up at their units without EVER having passed a PT test.

WLC is also being changed. No PT test or Land Nav anymore.

Oh and here at BNCOC Common Core right now... just informed you may no longer call junior soldiers by just their rank. It is "degrading" and you must use their last name too. This is already being implemented in BCT we were told.

They are taking this "kinder, gentler" thing WAY too far.

So, it was true about those yellow "time-out" cards... http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d155/Spot379th/sick0021.gif

WLC is also being changed. No PT test or Land Nav anymore.

That's a humongous accident looking for a place to happen.

Sounds like someone wants the US to fail. :mad:

[CAP MARINE]

please forgive me but im glad i was a Marine.

[DrlSgt]

I was a drill sergeant at Ft Jackson from 03-05.....

yeah I got written up 3 times, counseled 5 times, and got a letter of reprimand....because I tend to use a few "colorful" words...and I used to call them by their name, and not the term "WARRIOR" like I was instructed to do.....

Maybe thats why I hated my time there...and my promotion was slow to come..

Either way....they have lots of work to do to revamp the whole Army Educational system...from OSUT, BCT all the way to BNCOC, ANCOC and WLC.

Good Luck!
Glad I'm retired.....

[uTTER]

Yuk. Was wondering how they were going to handle OSUT with this new Maneuver Center thing Armor and Infantry have going in at Ft. Benning. If my Google intel is correct, Infantry and Armor BCT will be mixed to save money. If this is indeed the case, then I can see how the whole program will have to be revamped. If they place more of an emphasis on basic and advanced marksmanship, and throw in some tactical shooting scenerios, then maybe it can be a positive. Perhaps my wet dream can come true and Infantry can develop some form of AIT that will enable recruits to hit the ground faster when they arrive at their units.

The comments about Soldiers leaving Basic and not passing PT tests (and doing away with Land Nav at whatever PLDC is these days) is appalling. Never thought I would live to see the day where 1990 was "back when it was hard".

Guess you can't say "C'mere F**kstick" anymore, but is "I said LOW CRAWL!" in conjuction with it still acceptable?

[Wes]

So what about calling them 'hero', or 'hollywood', or 'dumbass', or just plain 'C'mere Soldier!'?

My BNCOC SGL just recently returned from an EO course. He said that unless you are addressing a group you need to use rank and last name. Addressing groups needs to be done as "Warriors", "Soldiers", etc...
Highspeed, etc.. is no longer "appropriate".

Anyway, back on topic.
I'm thinking that a revamp to concentrate IET soldiers on more warfighting skills is good. I'm thinking this being nice is contributing directly to more PTSD cases and emotional issues after combat. That's my personal opinion anyway.

[USArmyTC]

I was a drill sergeant at Ft Jackson from 03-05...



I was at Jackson in 03 as well.. Only I was a dumbass PV2 and you probably yelled at me a few times :biggrin:

If I remember correctly, none of our Drill Sergeants held back on any of us. Maybe It was just my company, but they were not soft on us by any means.

[stratiotes]

How many of these "rules" make it down to the line? From my perspective, none. Besides, I always make sure to call a soldier by his name and rank...so he knows I'm singling him out to call him a dumbass. :cool:

[okami1]

Man. My last name was like a Drill Sergeant deflector shield. They took one look at my tape and just told me to move out. That and I didn't screw up/off. What's going to happen to "Private Alphabet" with all this?

[Davelrrp]

I live close to Ft. Jackson, and have had the opportunity to observe the trainees a few times. I also have seen the posts of those who went through twenty or so years ago.

I had Basic in summer of '68 at Ft. Polk. Then AIT at Leonad Wood. After that, OCS at Belvoir. What I see now is nothing but PC bullshit. I feel sorry for anybody that is on the trail.

They need to go back and re-learn a lot what was done then. Shut up and do it. If you don't get it right, you will do it over until you do. Attitude adjustments will be freely given when needed.

When I went through OCS, it was 23 weeks long. Three class levels. You could be turned back or be bounced till the week you graduated. So much easier now. You had to want it to make it then. Now I am not so sure.

Anyone concur, or am I way off track?

[Hammer06]

I saw it in the Ghan on a repetitive basis in a few the Regular Army unit I was attached to. They were getting these FNG's with absolf#%6inlutely no direction, training, motivation. One of the new replacements was sent out on a three day OP the day after he gets in country, and is expected to be familiar and work with a key weapon system. DUMB, DUMB, DUMB. And you wonder why this kid froze in the turret on that key weapon system under fire and got ventilated (he survived, evaced to Landsduhl). I heard that in our CUB briefing that evening and I lost my professionalism to the kids fu*^ed up chain of command and had to be escorted out of the meeting. It is a failure of gigantic proportions, FROM THE TOP DOWN. You have these Free I B, wanna -be, outside the wire once if they go at all, office baby, rank generals making policy decisions that COST PEOPLE THIER LIVES. Once again, it's left up to the consummate NCO's to square away the troops. Basic/AIT is supposed to be hard, it’s not, and it has not been. And it is reflected in the caliber of the troops coming into these line units. If we forge a company of pus*^&ies, what do you think you will get in return. Luckily for us, there are a few of us out there that hold the line, lead by example, set the standard, and still do things the old school way. Boot in ass……….

[SOTB]

Highspeed, etc.. is no longer "appropriate"....I suppose "stud" is out too. If so, crying shame -- that was one Army term I love(d)....

[Wes]

SOTB: I don't expect most units to follow this guidance too closely. But in TRADOC land I expect this BS to prevail.

[ASByron]

SOTB: I don't expect most units to follow this guidance too closely. But in TRADOC land I expect this BS to prevail.

I got to BCT in Feb, graduated AIT beginning of Oct, and went the jump school straight after. Trust me your expectations of BS in TRADOC are fully met. I could semi-understand some of the crap in AIT considering it was Huachuca, but so far the Army is far from what I expected.

Private Alphabet is definitely still used though, I don't think we ever figured out how to pronounce a few of the African guys' names...

[CombatMedic1981]

Man. My last name was like a Drill Sergeant deflector shield. They took one look at my tape and just told me to move out. That and I didn't screw up/off. What's going to happen to "Private Alphabet" with all this?

LOL Same with my name. The drills just used the last four of my soc. instead.

"2472, beat your face."






*^ not real #*

[WS-G]

...I didn't screw up/off.
That will remain the pivotal issue WRT how painlessly one progresses through IET.

"Private Alphabet"
That and similar monikers has always struck me as a cadre's way of admitting to being lazy and stupid on a certain level: it's cop-out for those who can't (read: won't) take a second or two to figure out how to correctly pronounce the name of one of their own charges. I always made it a point to do that.

[BCEagles84]

I got to BCT in Feb, graduated AIT beginning of Oct, and went the jump school straight after. Trust me your expectations of BS in TRADOC are fully met. I could semi-understand some of the crap in AIT considering it was Huachuca, but so far the Army is far from what I expected.

Sounds like I'm a few months behind you on the same path--shipped to BCT in early June, graduate AIT at Huachuca at the end of Jan, and head to Bragg shortly thereafter. And I concur with your assessment. Maybe it's because I was at Jackson (and the fact that I had the pleasure of going during the summer with all the split-ops certainly didn't help :rolleyes:), but BCT really was a joke. I went in expecting something just a notch or two below "Full Metal Jacket" and found myself at a high school summer camp. And the thing is, it wasn't at all the fault of the DSs, who did everything they could to train us--their hands were simply tied by the higher-ups. Shit, one of our Drill Sergeants got in trouble for leading us on a voluntary run one evening week 6 or 7, because it was "soldier time" and that meant they weren't allowed to train us at all.

It was actually pretty frustrating for those of us who were motivated to train--yeah, it made things "easier" on a day-to-day basis, but at the same time you always had that feeling in the back of your mind that you weren't really getting the training you needed to complete the mission and keep yourself and your buddies alive downrange.

I was lucky enough to have some excellent DSs at Jackson who did the best they could for us, even getting themselves in hot water on several occasions for it; and also have a number of great NCOs (cadre and MOS-Ts) here at Huachuca to helping us develop as soldiers. But how many others coming through the pipeline now have the same advantages??

[CombatMedic1981]

That will remain the pivotal issue WRT how painlessly one progresses through IET.


That and similar monikers has always struck me as a cadre's way of admitting to being lazy and stupid on a certain level: it's cop-out for those who can't (read: won't) take a second or two to figure out how to correctly pronounce the name of one of their own charges. I always made it a point to do that.

Its during BCT though. I mean why bother making an effort to learn all the names when A)Not all will make it through and B) What have they done to earn ANY respect from the cadre?

[JCasp]

What have they done to earn ANY respect from the cadre?

Enlisted?

[CombatMedic1981]

Enlisted?

Eh. I expected to be yelled at and called pretty much every name in the book. My E-6 , 82nd AB, Gulf War Veteran DS didn't owe me shit till I could prove myself able to pass the standards of BCT. Thats just my opinion though.

[WS-G]

Eh. I expected to be yelled at and called pretty much every name in the book.
When I went through BCT (Ft. Gordon, JUL-AUG 1981 — and yes, I was a Split Option, doing BCT on my vacation between 11th and 12th grades), troops were generally referenced by "Private" and their proper name, though that didn't stop most of the drills from saying things like "Drop, son" or "LOW-CRAWL for that weapon, boy!" (it was the Deep South, after all).

I still maintain that the hard part of being a Split Option was having to go back to high school two days after outprocessing. Curiously, using "you people..." on the drill field in my NJROTC class didn't go over well with my instructor (a retired USMC officer).