Basic

[Disturbance]

I just wanted to know how it run. Like are you assigned to a section of guys and those are the guys you will be through the whole thing or do they mix a bunch?
Also do officers do their courses seperate from the enlisted or they just on the same slate at the beginning? Or are they the guys that are put in charge sections and stuff?
Is there a lot of rivalry and competition between guys or is there competition but everyone is pretty cool regardless.?

[Enfield]

Officers are seperate, they do phase training over the summer and various jobs in the unit over the year. Being a QL2 platoon commander is a normal 2Lt job.

The course - all courses - are arranged into an infantry platoon. Pl Commander (2Lt/Lt), 2ic (WO/Sgt.), and section commanders (Sgt./MCpl/Cpl) are all instructors, the sections are made up of recruits. You stay together for QL2. For QL3 a number of guys (because there will have been several QL2's over the year) get mixed together. Some may have been in the unit for months or even years. I believe out here all the regiments mix their troops for QL3.

[FNG]

At the start of your course, you will not find very much rivalry, since nobody will know what they are doing. This is where you just go and help each other out, set a good example, show that you are a team player. If the other guys see you busting a gut for them, they'll likely do the same for you. Just remember that you are going to be with these same people all the way to summer at least. Friendly competition is fun, but try not to make any enemies. The last thing you need is a blade.

If there are some ex-cadets in your course, they might seem to have a head start on you at the beginning; but don't worry. After enough weekends, you'll all be on the level playing field again.

[TonyM]

Stress management and how you'll act under pressure is looked at. But with the slackness of the courses now, I'd imagine they can only use lack of sleep to replicate any type of hardship.

[Marauder]

Lack of sleep... Something most uni students can relate to. LOL
So for an infantry QL3 course, what weps besides the C7 do recruits get qual'd on? I know the MG is a QL4 class, but does the use of M203s, frags, shotguns, and pistols get taught? Or are all of those seperate QL4 courses?
Disturbance, where are you doing basic? I only have to clear the medical, interview, and fitness test (all scheduled already), after which I should be shipping to Meaford come June. I just have to wait until 8 March (interview day) to see if the CF thinks I am worthy.

[Disturbance]

I passed the med,passed the int...scheduling the fit test tommorow for sometime within the next few weeks and they are doing the background check as we speak. If the check goes well and I am sure the fit test should ok (I have been runnin a hella lot the past few weeks) then I will hopefully get a slot in the July-sept Q2 with a back to back Q3 (is that right?) up in Wainwrite..Wayneright...wainright I dunno its in Edmonton. And yes lack of sleep is not new to me either Marauder I am use to going to bed at 2am and getting up 630am 5 days a week so I think I can squeeze a bit more out of my body if need be.

The cool thing about me gettin accepted early with the Highlanders is that I can start right away and not have to wait till after basic. This way I can have a ton of experience goin in which hopefully I can pass on to other guys who were not so fortunate.
-Disturbance

Advice for the interview from a friend: be confident with your answers if you are not gonna tell the whole truth or none at all just make sure you are confident in whatever shit you speak. If you have something you dont wanna say they may fool you by telling that its all confidential at the beginning of it.

-Disturbance

[FNG]

Guys, you are not going to be THAT sleep deprived. Only for a few days in the field. In garrison, expect a 10pm curfew and 5am wake up call. That's plenty of sleep. Even in the field, you'll still get plenty of forced rest.

Marauder, Infantry QL3 for LCFA this summer will be run at CFB Kingston, not LFCATC Meaford. Your ankles and knees will thank you for this, and you'll actually be able to go to town on leave quite easily. Who knows, I might even instruct on the course... or at the very least parade around in a pink bunny suit.

In QL3, you will be taught the C7 (You should know it well by then), C9, M72 SRAAW(L), and Grenades. You most likely will not be instructed in the use of the C6, (light role) 60mm mortar, and 84mm Carl G, depending on the length of your QL3, and what the training objectives are that year.

Weapons such as shotguns, pistols, grenade launchers, are not taught on QL3, or on separate QL4s. They are just tools to be learned later by individual soldiers, not specialty trade training. In fact, their use will be so rare that you may go through an entire career in the reserves without using them.

The only Infantry QL4s dealing with weapons are the Machine Gun course, and the Anti-Armour course. The latter I have never heard of reservists getting.

Good luck to you both.



[This message has been edited by FNG (edited 02-21-2001).]

[garett]

I guess its weird that our unit has fired shotguns twice and pistols once (with C7s of course) in jungle lanes in the same year. We fired two HEAT M72s last year also. Woo hoo for CFB Gagetown.

[FNG]

Well Garrett, I guess each unit has their specialty. Pistols is not too uncommon if you are on the Pistol/Rifle team, but you certainly won't see them on Ex. here. Shotguns I haven't seen, but we've had two periods of instruction on former Warsaw Pact weapons already. SVD, AK47/47S, 74, SKS, PKM, RPG, Tokarev, RPK, PPsh 41, etc... Last year, there was even more, including HK, Steyr, etc...

[enderr]

what!...QL3 in kingston instead of meaford.. why?...beach brothers will probably go out of business, and soon as the recruits get leave they'll head straight for the female penitentiary offering their souls. hmm..who do you pity..the recruits or the convicts...nope I know..those dickheads at RMC

[Marauder]

What gear does the CF issue to recruits to go through Basic (and Infantry training)?
And is there anything I could get my hot little hands on beside the issue stuff that will keep me going as far and as fast as I can in training? Like my own boots, a Camelback, any of that manner of thing?
Thanks.

Oh, and does anyone know any bars near Camp Meaford and CFB Kingston that have Guinness and Kilkenny on tap? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

[Cole]

Non-issue equipment is at the discretion of your superiors...however, from what I understand don't be taking ANYTHING not issued to course, especially Basic. Apparently instructors arn't to keen on that sort of thing....

[Disturbance]

I thought when you are doing your courses you dont get to leave and go out on the weekends??? Its not that I really care just when you asked bars and stuff I was like uhhhh what

[FNG]

On your basic and QL3, you will get weekend leave after you pass the OC's inspection. This right can easily be revoked.

As for kit issue, you will be given everything you need before you go on course. Don't get caught up on the issue of non-issue kit before you've even have the chance to use the issued kit extensively. Issue kit isn't all bad. Soldiers just like to gripe. My advice is to stick with issue only until you are done your QL3. That should give you enough time to find out what works and what doesn't.

[Marauder]

Thanks for the heads up everyone.
Disturbance, the WO I spoke with from the unit I plan on joining said that QL2 and QL3 are run like Battleschools, meaning there is the chance to get off the base during weekends if ya don't screw up. Although he didn't mention to me that the QL3 is in Kingston. But if it is that would be nice, as I have had the chance to visit Kingston a few summers back and it had a nice enough climate to be in. Speaking of which, is the FTX at the end of the training held in Kingston too?
Hey FNG, any particular class I should look for you in?

[Disturbance]

How often do you get an OC's inspection?

[FNG]

Marauder: Plans are not set in stone yet. I'll know when I get there.

Disturbance: OCs inspection should happen only once (if you don't fail it), probably during the third or forth week.

[Disturbance]

OK this weekend leave is new to me...I figured I would be doing shit 24/7 and that they would issue all the clothing I needed. So what are you allowed to have with you in terms of personal items and clothes. Like would I be allowed a walkmen or stereo to liven it up a bit. Is there even anything to do in Wainwrite on the weekends (like any descent bars or something) I dont even know where the hell it is??

[Enfield]

On my QL3 my section tent had a TV, stereo, playstation, and VCR, and an ungodly amount of porn - and that wasn't uncommon. The day was over at 5 or so, unless there was a night period,and we'd watch movies and eat pizza as we polished our boots and got ready for the next day. Couldn't leave the camp though. You'll have weekends off unless you fuck up, but that's at your section commanders discretion. One section of my QL3 did Corrective Duty every weekend, rest of us went home every weekend. I brought a walkman with me and it got stolen. For civvies... well, after 5 you change into civvies, so ya, bring some. And bring clothes for bars and the weekend.

haha...an OC's inspection. Worry about the NCO's, not the officers.

I found sleep deprivation to be the worst on QL2... so much boring classroom work. At least we were outside on QL3. Never seen so many heads pouncing off desks as in QL2...

QL2/3 is based on EVERYONE being absolutley identical. No personal kit. Socks and underwear can be different, that's it. And it's stupid to go buy loit's of fancy new stuff until you have extensive experience with the issue stuff. Most guy's don't buy very much extra stuff, a new ruck (well, buying the old frame) is the most popular item. After that would be a patrol pack, and out west here chest rigging is owned by a few guys.

hahahaha...camelbak...M203's....shotguns...
*lol* yeah right, not in this part-time army. =o) For a recruiting gig we pulled an old Browning 9mm out of the armoury and over the course of the day payed with it, and that's the only time I've seen a pistol in the Army.

[Disturbance]

How close was your Q3 to your house Enfield? I doubt I will comin back to vancity on any weekend trip when I am in Wainwrite(still dont know where it is-besides in ALTA). That's dope though, good to hear you get to relieve some pressure and get to know your crew by goin out.

Oh yeah...were the TV and VCR and PLaystation provided or did ppl bring it with them or have ppl from home send them out once they realized they could. Cause I can bring all that stuff if need be but I dont wanna look like a tool havin it with me when I arrive first thing.

-Disturbance

I seriously thought I would have like a backup full of stuff and thats it.

Now if only they would issue you a pretty girl to at camp.

[Enfield]

QL3 was just a couple hours drive from my home, so it was easy to go home. People will organize things if they can't go home - bars, road trips, whatever.
TV we all chipped in a few bucks for, and there was a draw for it at the end of the summer... VCR and Playstation people brought out. Bunch of people had stereos.
But I don't know how it works at Wainwright, they do thinsg different out here in LFWA. You'll find out everything once your in, dont worry.
And this is the co-ed army.. there's always a pretty girl around. Lot's of competition tho...
I went to QL3 with a rucksack and a duffel bag full of stuff. Brought lot's of candy and snacks, the stuff on the kitlist, and some civvies to be comfortable in. Our days went from 5am til 5pm, usually. Range days we slept in, some stuff had night components so we went back out after supper. But things vary between Area and change every year.

[FNG]

I would recommend against bringing all your 'play' stuff right away. You'll only have limited secure storage space... a barracks box and locked duffel bag, and you'll need these for your everyday kit such as polish kit, shave kit, notebooks, clothes, etc. Remember that all the TV and stereos need to be completely out of sight in the morning... so you have to fit them some place that won't be inspected. You should try to hold off on the TV and games until you know what is acceptable on your course.

Your barracks box and duffel bag is considered personal space, so it shouldn't have to conform to any standard; but I have known at least one platoon where this was not so.

On my course, a walkman was barely acceptable. When it was our time off, the candidates just talked while they cleaned weapons and kit. Might be better this way since you get to know your buddies better. After the first few weeks in QL3, you should have mess priviledges as well. These places would probably have darts, pool table, TV, movies, as well as drinks.

As to snacks... don't need to bring too much. Most likely, your platoon will operate it's own canteen at selected times everyday. Lots of candy, chocolate and pop for sale. The profits will probably go back towards your platoon... ie course T-shirts.

[This message has been edited by FNG (edited 02-28-2001).]

[Cree Warrior]

Oh man you guys had/have it soft!
When I went through Basic and AIT in the states we weren't allowed anything. I woulda killed for a walkman, even a candybar! We couldnt even read or have books unless they were FM_____ whatever.
The first day of basic they had a big garbage can and everyone dumped all their stuff in there. Walkmans, books, gum,candy bars, extra clothes whatever, it all went in the garbage (I'm sure the Drill Sargeants kept it all) and we never saw it again.
You guys don't realize how soft you got it!
...Mind you we had three suicides in Basic while I was there...heh heh.

Sua Sponte



[This message has been edited by Cree Warrior (edited 02-28-2001).]

[FNG]

No doubt Cree... I'm sure in a couple of years, they'll even have private showers for each soldier and a maid to make your bed and polish your boots for you.

[Disturbance]

So enfield, what your telling me is that not all girls in CF have parents who were brother and sister?
This is cool guys thanks for all this intel. I didnt (and am still trying not to) have any expectations at all except that it would be PT PT PT PT PT so that I wouldn't be let down, cause I hate being let down.

Also, is the basic/battle that I am going to do only one for reservists or is it for both regs and res?

-Disturbance

[Cole]

What the F**K!!!
Playstation...candy...T.V.
This sounds an awful lot like summer camp!
I can't believe this, I didn't join the reserves to go play video games in Northern Alberta all summer. Are the Reg forces anything like this!?!
Cute girls...I'll stay in Vancouver if I want to chase tail.
What the hell kinda impression of the military is a recruit supposed to get if he is allowed to do this shit.
We are supposed to be training for war, not trying for the highest score in PacMan, or worrying if we get pop and chips when the slumber party starts at 5:00pm.
I feel this is yet another example of how the brass has failed us. Someone put that Russian up again; we don't play games, we play for keeps....

[This message has been edited by Cole (edited 02-28-2001).]

[Enfield]

Actually Cole it was MarioCart....

The ISCC course in Gagetown had a playstation hooked up the big projection screens in the lecture rooms in M5 last summer - a nice 2 meter screen to play on =o) My MG course last summer had a VCR and TV, and guys went out almost every night (hell, Garrett went home every day!). And you'd be amazed at some of the set ups that the guys that live in Gagetown all summer get... but you'll see all of that once you get in.

First of all, QL3 is NOT the hardest thing you will do, it's merely a prep and gives you the basic skills to rain with your unit. This is not SAS Selection, nor is it Ranger School. They will not beat you into the ground, nor PT you to death. My course was slacker than it should have been, and everyone knew it - from the recruits to the platoon commander.

[FNG]

Disturbance: Sorry bud, but prepare to be disappointed. Also, the course is for reserves only.

Cole (and this can also apply to others who are joining):

I understand what you are trying to say, but don't blame the brass, the CF, the politicians, or the social engineering movement for this.

The truth is that basic and QL3 is only there to teach you skills that enable you to fight. It is not the hardest thing you will do. Not everyone who finishes basic or QL3 will be a lean and mean fighting machine.

It is your responsibility to make yourself fit to fight. It is your responsibility to take your training seriously, to learn as much as you can, and to be motivated.

You, like most other members of this board are not satisfied with the training you are given. You want to be better, so make it your mission to improve your training through other means.

I assure you that even as our standards drop and basic becomes easier and easier, there will always be individual soldiers who want to work hard and be highspeed. This forum is proof of that.

[Quimby]

I view the current QL2/3 as no more than a reflection of a weak society in general. Canadians know we are never going to fight in a large scale war again. The ability and political will simply don't exist in this country anymore. It would take us years to build up the capability to participate in a meaningful way in something like the Gulf War. Let's face it, if Saadam or some other tin pot dictator decides to stir up the shit somewhere in the world it won't be Canadians that are sent off to rectify the situation and our training reflects that reality. And if we are being trained for war then alot of the top brass should be in jail for criminal negligence causing future deaths for allowing traing to sink to the pitiful levels it has.

------------------
An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

[Disturbance]

Again I point out that its the fucking liberals....anyways Quimby what you began to talk about is gonna change the direction of the this thread and so far I have been gettin really good info and responses from everyone about the topic and I want it to stay that way.

FNG: I hope by disappointed you mean its not all ptptptptptpt. I totally agree with you FNG though I could care less what the "standards" are, my standards now are already far above what CF's are and I havent even started yet. So far and I am sure it will be like this for a long time but everything I have done has been independant determination, I dont train with anyone but myself and my discman and thus I am the only one to push me on and keep me going. I think this is the best way to test yourself, the truth is once I begin to be pushed on either by the instructors or by my team it'll be easier than I have it now.

Anyways, I was wondering if the CF provides its own cooks and stuff or are they hired civvies who cant get a job anywhere else? If they are army do they come from the support company's? How do they get stuck cooking or is it their choice? Cause if its not I sure hope they aint puttin the toast down their pants for me.

[Enfield]

ah... the support troops. They exist, I've seen them. I have never, however, been supported by them in the field.
On course... well, the bases all have kitchens that provide food. Or you get field rations or boxed lunches... don't worry about details like that. If you want to do some prep besides PT, memorize the rank structure and insignia... you'll be fed, don't worry. On my QL2 the Kosovar refugees arrived and our schedule was thrown off, so our first field weekend was spent in the armourya nd we had to walk to the Navy base mess for our meals - 2km each way, 3 times a day for two days, through Halifax. When we finally did get to the field there was a blizzard and we were freezing and when the food finally arrived from the base it turned out to be.... hot water in the hay boxes. Someone in the kitchen fucked up and forgot to put the food in.

And don't think that because you did some PT before the course you'll cream it. It's still a challenge - the NCO's work very hard, against the regs and rules, to challenge you. On my QL3 our NCO's would take us out of view of the higher-ups and PT us to death. Doing ceremonial guard duty last summer there was no officer, just a sergeant, and every morning he'd give us some pretty tough PT - lot's of puking *grin*

[Disturbance]

Yeah I was just curious about the cooking thing, I dont actually care and I know I will be fed. But still would like to know - why you would want to be a cook anyways?

Also I dont want to be cream fed, I like my shit as hard as it gets. Thats a lil piece of why I want to do it anyways- that big word "challenge", but I do know what you mean enfield.

[Cole]

I was ranting about general conceptions of training, not trying to personally attack anyone. From the gripes and rants we all have put up, I know we are the least likely to be impressed. After all we all are going to be in JTF 2 in a few years http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif.
But, my worry is for the other recruits who experience this and think this it is the big strain of military experience...essentially the shitbags.
As high speed as any of us can drive ourselves to be, the unit lives and dies as I don't wanna have a situation go FUBAR because 90% of the unit is soft. I know there will always be shitbags in any military, but basic training should be hard enough to turn out enough hard soldiers to make an effective fighting unit.

[garett]

Hey! At least I slept in M5. Good thing (for me) that Phase training is run in Gagetown, I get to sleep in my nice water bed and eat my mom's home cooking as much as possible. Potatoes for you, steak for me HAHAHAHAHAHA. I hate it when you damn out of towners want me to introduce you to the girls I know in Fredericton. The Capers on the MG course thought I was gay because I wouldn't call any girls to come to their hotel room. Good thing they found some fat American chicks up from Maine who came to Canada to get drunk because they weren't 21. God bless the dregs of society.
Does anyone know anything about the rumors flying around about 1 and 3 RCR moving to Gagetown and Pet closing?

[King]

How long do QL3 & QL4 courses usually run and when do they start?

[Enfield]

Originally posted by King:
How long do QL3 & QL4 courses usually run and when do they start?

QL3 is about 2 months long, QL4's are 3 weeks to a month and half (I think, Comms looked like it lasted all summer). QL3 and 4's are only run over the summer, with 3's starting in July and 4's going on a regular cycle all summer.

[FNG]

QL3 in LFCA was 35 training days long, and runs only in the summer.

QL4 sometimes runs during the normal year on weekends if they are unit run instead of brigade run.

[Disturbance]

What clothes do we wear during basic, like is it sweats, boots, and a tee or is the army BDU's?

[Marauder]

OK, small stuff like sunscreen, insect repellant, sunglasses.... our own stuff, issue, or considered to be unneccesary because sunburns, insect bites, and stumbling over rocks on bright days are considered to be very good at building character? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[Enfield]

Ack!! Do not call them BDU's!! This is not the US Army... Do not consider anyone an 'E-1,2,3," whatever, do not call a sergeant "sarge", and do not call your rifle an M-16.

Anyways, you will wear COMBATS from your first day in till the day you get out... Before your course you will be issued everything you need - essential exactly what every other soldier has, except that I know that in the Seaforths ya don't get the new kit until your done QL2. You'll wear a beret with the cornflake cap badge and "Canada" epaulettes. And chances are, you'll like like a bag of nails in your uniform for awhile..
A sunburn is considered a self-inflicted wound... they'll issue you foot powder, and maybe bug dope and sunscreen, but you can use your own if you want. Sunglasses??!! um.. no. Sunglasses are only authorized when not in the field and probably won't be allowed on course.

And don't worry about small details like this.. you'll be taken care of and learn the ropes very quickly. But for god's sake don't use American references!

And don't worry about being told your "over qualified"... you aren't (nothing personal, they say that a lot, I was told something similar to that and I'm certainly not). Many of the best soldiers I've met were high school drop outs. Good marks in school or captain of the football team do not equal a good soldier (sometimes, i'm told, the exact opposite is true)

Enfield

[Disturbance]

SOMEONE GET ENFIELD SOME WATER HE's HEATING UP.
sorry man. I just thought that battle dress uniform is what they were called - cause isnt there a bunch of different uniforms- anyways thats beside the point. As for the other stuff I KNOW DONT WORRY!! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Its not that I'm worried just curious. I could care less what the hell I wear. And what was that stuff about being "over qualified" when would they tell me that? before I start, during? do they mean like I should do something else or officer? I didnt really understand

-Disturbance

PS I cant wait to make E-1!

[Enfield]

hahahaha.... *grin*
The green uniform is called Combats, with all your gear and webbing it's called Full Fighting Order, and the dress uniform is called DEU's. There's a whole bunch of variations in highland dress uniforms tho...

As a side note... When you get your kit make sure you know what your signing for and that they actually gave it too you.

The "over qualified" was meant in response to Marauder's post under "The Look of Our Army".. I just didn't feel like posting twice, and figure'd he'd read it. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

And again, the best prep I can think of to do before your in is to learn the rank structure!

[Marauder]

Hey, Enfield, no problem bro. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif When he said that I had to cut myself short of chuckling. I mean I am proud of the grades I get, but an 85% in nursing class does not a soldier make. LOL
"Well, no, MCpl Bloggins, I don't "know how the hell to fieldstrip a C7", but lemme tell you about Elisabeth Kubler-Ross' five stages of death and dying....."
"Uhhhh, MCpl Bloggins, how many pushups am I up to? I sorta lost count......." http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Don't worry Enfield, no swelled head here, just wide open ears and eyes and a firmly clenched-shut bouche LOL

[Disturbance]

K I got sick of waiting for the CFRC to call me so I called them today - cause I passed my physical like 2 weeks ago. Talked to a guy he said he sent my package to the ERC and it can anywhere from 3 days to 3 weeks and then he said try back in another week if I dont hear from them. I have lots of patience but come on I first handed in my application package back in the beginning of January shheeesh. What is the ERC anyways?

-a disturbed Disturbance

[Cole]

Don't worry Disturbance, I started the process in September and didn't get sworn in until the beginning of January.
Good news though, they havn't done the course loading yet so I think there is still a good chance for you to get on a QL2/3 this summer though

[Marauder]

Hey, guys, I feel your pain. It's been 2+ weeks since I finished everything up, and when I called Friday, the guy at the RC said that my file was still being reviewed by some medical body, and "should" be here at some point this week. Hey, Barney, any chance you could make some calls??? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif
Whether it sucks or not guys, at least we are getting a taste of the beauraucracy now, so we have a chance to get used to all this "hurry-up-and-wait" stuff. Stay frosty and hold the course, guys. We'll get there yet.

[Barney]

ERC - Enhanced Reliability Check - It's how we make sure that you're not a card carrying member of Ernst Zundel's Free Love For Pure Aryans Group,or other undesirable criminal elements.

I can't remember who does it, but I think the RCMP maintains the national database and responsibility.

The joke of security clearances is, nobody ever really checks from that point on. I'm suposed to be a few levels up from ERC, but I've never handled anything which merits it.

Otherwise, I hope your process is going well. And Marauder, are you in Nursing? Maybe I can eventually make you an offer.....I'm looking for people for a Field Hospital component for the Reserves. Our training will rely heavily on US exercises - ie on hospital ships, or in Fd Hosps on Div exercises. Let me know.

------------------
Death to the Purple One

[Enfield]

A couple weeks is nothing....Mine took a month or two. Some guys took a year. Welcome to the CF, your case is not unusual in any way, and this kind of BS does not stop once your in...

Enfield
"Get on the bus...get off the bus...get back on the bus... hurry up, get off the bus.."

[Marauder]

Hello Barney;
Thanks for the offer and the intel, sir. At this point, however, I am just finishing my first year of nursing (finishing exams on 20 April, aw hell yeah!) so I have a bit of a haul left to complete my RN boards. And I wanna have some fun in the dirt and mud for a year or two, so Infantey it is. Maybe if you are still looking for RNs three years down the road, I would give it serious consideration, but for now....? Anyways, thanks again, and best of luck with your project, sir. Later.

[Canuck]

Hi All,

I have been lurking for a while here. I did four years at a recruiting center as DCO so if you have any questions on the process I can help out. Right now I am enjoying Regimental life in Shilo. Keep safe.

Jeff

[Barney]

Marauder, I hear ya. I miss being out in the field, but I've effectively prostituted myself for some good coin. If all goes well, the offer will stand for years to come.

Did everybody hear about the pay raises? A certain percent is retroactive to 1999. And, I think Jr NCO's got the biggest retro raise. And come 1 April we all get 2.5% - but don't hold me to exact numbers yet. When you're Class A, it isn't much in retro pay, but every dollar helps.

Now, if I could only find a way to get some new kit, I'd be truly happy......

------------------
Death to the Purple One

[Marauder]

<kicking aside tumbleweeds>
<cough> <cough> <cough>
Damn, there's a lot of dust in here.*LOL*
Just wanted to know if you've gotten any calls, Disturbance, giving you the thumbs up yet. Any news, bro?

[Disturbance]

.....no....I gave them two weeks from the physical then I called and they said call again next week and it will prolly be back but I have yet to do that. Tomorrow I am hitting up a big ol piss-up so prolly friday I will call and try and speed things along. Last I heard was that it was at the ERC or something.

[Big_King]

Well I decided to take a study break and see what was happening on the ol' SOCNET. I thought I could lend a little encouragement to you guys left hanging on your applications.

I've been on QL2 with the PLF for the last few weeks, and guys believe me when I say it's better to just bite your lip and say "yes Mcpl". If you have to say something, make sure it's an intelligent statement or question. There's too many yahoos on course with me that shouldn't even be in the army let alone the infantry and I can't see them getting their sh*t together in the next few weekends. I'm only a few weeks in, so I'm by no means knowledgeable, but for you guys who haven't gotten called in yet (you will soon), I might be able to divulge some basic current info as to how the course is run if you were wondering anything.

It also hit me that Enfield used to be with the PLF (?). If so, maybe you can give me a heads up on a few of my instructors??

Anyways, all us new guys will be the same by the end of the summer. Until then, keep your eyes and ears open, your mind focused, and your body finely tuned!

"Fideliter"

[Marauder]

Thanks for the encouragement and advice, BK. It's much appreciated.

Disturbance, hang in there bro, I'm sure you'll have little to no wait left by now.

BTW, I called today, and my package had come back to the RC, who had forwarded it to the Regiment. Hopefully I will get a call soon, and I can get this show on the road. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Hang tough all, we'll get there eventually.

[Gipper]

I applied to the C Scot R (Victoria)a few weeks ago hoping to get on QL2/3 for July and August. Just got a call saying my testing and interview will be May 7th. Should that be enough time for them to get their act together and send me off by July?

[Disturbance]

Good news guys. I called the CFRC today and asked how everything was going. the guy was like yeah good news I am holding the package in my hand right now and its says everything is in order and that I can start anytime I want now.

[Reverend B]

All you cherry fuckers piss me off to no end. A) Stop putting those "cute" smiley faces in your posts. B) The next time one of you fucking wankers drop out of a feeble ruck march, or are hurtingly the fuck behind us in an obs. course run, talk about just how "cool" your pathetic 2 or 3's course was. YIPPIE!! I got every weekend off....WOW!! I gots chips and pops and chocky bars in the canteen every night!! And now look...some angry Sgt. is calling me a bag of shit because I am too weak to carry my own kit...I think that hurt my SHARP and DIVERSIFIED feelings...so what if I do not know what platoon support weapons are....
And to you DukeM...I fucking HATE people like you...what do you think we've done? Everything but pull magic pixie dust from my ass. You could show up with a pot of gold, but because some weak fucking pogue thinks that they will not get the credit for it...it must be fake gold, something has to be wrong...a senior NCM must not know what he is talking about...some fucker that did the all-mighty "Gagetown" must have more knowledge in his summer than an NCO does in all his years.

[Quimby]

It's funny cause it's true.

But seriously,when you come off your infantry 2/3 don't be too full of yourselves because it really isn't the accomplishment it should be. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you. I like to call it the Oprahfication of the armed forces.

------------------
An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

[towhey]

I wouldn't worry too much about the Reverend. He's obviously been chewing too many Vancouver Island mushrooms and it's turned him into a raving Rambo wannabe.

I laugh in his general direction. Anyone who is both a "student" and a "soldier" per his profile obviously must be a real highly trained, death tech, super-secret handshake, decoder ring, killing machine.

Yeah, right. What a waste of bits and bytes.

Those who have actually been in more than a month know there's no such thing as a "Senior NCM".

Oh, and by the way....

http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif just to make you http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/frown.gif

[Soldier of Fortune]

Just wondering,
when im 16 im going to join the reserves and was just wondering, why is there reserves, if there is a war canada, probly can't afford to deploy them, everything ive read on other websites dosn't say anything about them except being paid to train, practice marksmanship, PT, etc. does anybody now what egzakly what they do?

[This message has been edited by Soldier of Fortune (edited 04-06-2001).]

[Enfield]

Big King - PLF eh?? Congrats - great regiment, you'll love it. Send me an email and tell who your instructors are, I probably know all of them.

Let me be the first to congragulate Disturbance... Talked to the Recruiting Officer today, and they wat to swear him in this thursday... so, Disturbance, call back the unit!!!! And I'll see ya this thursday, I owe ya a few beers.

Enfield

[Marauder]

Big congrats Disturbance. Way to go, man!

Well Rev, I'm kinda disappointed that you won't be in the unit I plan to join. I suppose then I could prove to you that short of death, dismemberment, or act of God, I plan to drive on as hard as I can to become a proficient soldier, with quitting not being an option in my mind. Or I could prove that being a 6' 200lbs. farm boy who has hauled around hay bales, salt licks, feed bags, machine parts, and baby foals since the age of 8 and who maintains a good level of fitness has made me damn skippy ready to shoulder whatever burden the EKSCOT place in my bergen. But since you won't be there to see me prove it, you'll just have to take my word for it.
And if the best insult any of the SGTs or WOs I serve under can come up with is to call me a bag of shit, I'm gonna be disappointed.

[DukeM]

A few points…Reverend B, you have some good points about the level of training that candidates are receiving. It would seem that you are suggesting that the current training is to relaxed and the troops come back to the units at a minimum standard. Within are political climate, what would you do to rectify this situation. I am asking you to look at all sides of this discussion and at all levels when you comment. At least you could enlighten myself on some of the things you have done at your unit like TonyM has done. Things within your units mandate. This might show Towhey that your not chewing too many Vancouver Island mushrooms.
Towhey, is it too much to expect that when troops come back from the center of excellence that they have some discipline and can do basic skills without any prompting? Are we all not learning everyday, weather it in life or occupation and would this not make us all students. Nowhere did I see Reverend B profess to be a real highly trained, death tech, super-secret handshake, decoder ring, killing machine. He may have made statements that I don’t agree with but they may be valid. NCM is a used term with senior just being a time frame reference. I have seen you comment on the LFFR forum to a Maj Spence and Maj Graham and they use the term NCM. I guess they have less than a month in the CF, as you so eloquently said. “Those who have actually been in more than a month know there's no such thing as a "Senior NCM".” Or maybe it because you can’t see this through all that shit in you eyes from jamming you head up their …well you get the idea.

[Disturbance]

This is not what I had in mind when I started this thread guys, so please stick with facts and none of this shittalking bs cause there is no point to it - at all.

[Cole]

Whoa....where did all this American style flaming hostility come from?!?

[This message has been edited by Cole (edited 04-07-2001).]

[Disturbance]

And as of 1:17am april 7 I am now 20 years old.

Enfield you better get the guys to come to the blarneystone tonight cause that is the perfect place for the dress uniforms.

I cant wait to start...finally. Almost like a birthday present I guess.

[towhey]

Let me restate my points in simpler language, since it seems they may have been lost somewhere:

Q. Is it important that all soldiers are well trained?
A. Yes.

Q. Is it ever possible to be trained as well as we'd like to be?
A. No.

Q. Are today's recruits receiving the training they need to succeed as soldiers?
A. It depends almost entirely on the instructors they have. Even with a bad course outline, great instructors can pull a rabbit out of the hat almost every time.

Q. Are those of you who joined the reserve army within the last 5 years (as is likely the case with Rev B given his stated occupation of "student") better trained than those who join today?
A. Yes, but only because you've been in longer. Your recruit training is almost certainly no more effective than the training today's recruits will receive. Despite this, soldiers through the eons have always believed that "their course" was tough and that all others who followed "had it easy." This is normal and to be expected. Even Attila the Hun felt that Alexander the Great had an easy go during basic.

Q. Even if today's recruit course is easier than the one you took -- is it the recruits' fault?
A. No. And it was Rev B's insipid diatribe that pissed me off. He and his classmates are no better, no worse, than those who join today. I don't mind his consistent displays of gungho stupidity, but I won't sit quietly by while he craps on younger soldiers. The army needs to get rid of soldiers like Rev B -- not inspire more ignorant Rambos to join up.

Q. Do I have something against students?
A. Not at all. I was one once and will be again someday. The reserve is great for students and students are great for the reserve. I only raise the issue, because it suggests that one is young, and therefore, relatively inexperienced -- and therefore the only people one can easily impress are those with even less experience.

Q. Aren't we all "students?"
A. No. We may all be constantly learning, but we are not all students.

Q. What is a "Senior NCM"?
A. God only knows. Presumably, it's a non-commissioned member who is over the age of 60. In other words, it's an oxymoron. In the CF, there are Officers (those with commissions) and Non-Commissioned Members (NCMs). Within the ranks of NCMs there are: junior ranks, Senior NCOs and Warrant Officers.

Q. What does it suggest when someone uses the term "Senior NCM"?
A. Ignorance. In the true sense of the word. They just don't know better. They are intellectually lazy and ill informed. If they pay such poor attention to details like terminology, would I ever trust them with details that might get me killed? Nope.

Q. Why did I slag Rev B for using "Senior NCM" when I didn't slag others of higher rank who have used it elsewhere?
A. Rank has nothing to do with it. I've heard the term used by junior ranks, senior officers, generals and ministers. They're all equally ignorant. I slagged Rev B, however, not because he was being ignorant, but because he was being an asshole.

Q. Will I shut up now?
A. Yes.

Q. What would I like to say to Disturbance and others who have successfully navigated through the recruitment process and have now been/or are shortly to be sworn in?
A. Congratulations! Good for you. You are about to embark on one of life's greatest adventures. You will learn the value of teamwork in a way no one else can understand. Listen to the oath you swear and take it seriously. There is no greater calling, no greater achievement than training to defend and promote the values of Canadians. You are joining an exclusive club: the super 911 club. When the shit has hit the fan and even the police, fire or ambulance can't handle the situation -- they can always call the military.

The complaints you hear in this forum and others are not new. If you could transport yourself back in time to Wellington's camp on the eve of Waterloo, or into the boats at dawn on D-Day, or into a US Abrams at H-Hr during Desert Storm, or into the Israeli stick landing at Entebbe... you would have heard the same thoughts. There is never enough gear and it's never good enough. There is never enough time to train properly.

But, in the end, Canada's army has always answered the call, and won the day. Not because it had the best gear. Not because it had the most toys. But because it had the best soldiers.

Welcome to the family.

[This message has been edited by towhey (edited 04-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by towhey (edited 04-07-2001).]

[Quimby]

Towhey, I have respected what you have had to say in the past on this and the LFRR forum but on the issue of current standards in the reserves you are way off the mark. I believe it would be possible using objective measuring criteria to see the annual decline of standards out in WATC.(usually referred to as the center of excrement) The fact that courses get shorter and shorter is of itself an indicator that the standards are falling. If course A is 7 weeks and next year is reduced to 5 1/2 weeks how can we say that the course is as hard as the previous year. And the following year it is reduced to 4 weeks. Can we say it is as hard as either of the previous 2 years? As an example my Ql2 course in 1998 was 32 days long, which was shorter than previous years but twice as long as the current 16 day Ql2. I feel confident saying my course was less difficult than those before mine and harder than those run today.
Other criteria used to measure difficulty of courses would include PT standards, length and difficulty of exercises within the course and level of pressure exerted on the recruits by the instructors. While it would take some research on my part to objectively measure these standards I will use poor scholarship and jump to the conclusion that I would find in all cases that standards have fallen and in no cases have they recently risen.
So while I agree with the point that throughout history soldiers have claimed theirs was the most difficult course ever run I can say with a high degree of confidence that those coming before me had a harder go of it and unless standards are raised those coming after me will have an easier go of it.
I also agree with the point that the level of competence of soldiers coming out of basic depends heavily on having creative intructors who find ways to overcome the low standards and actually teach something of value. This is becoming more and more difficult with the emphasis on safety, avoiding harassment charges, and generally following the rules to the letter. As more and more leaders give up and either quit in disgust or toe the line and teach only what's in the lesson plans the level of training will fall even further.
I don't blame the new troops for their lack of training, as those senior to me didn't blame me for mine. I do however hate it when troops come back from training with an inflated ego, believing themselves to be good soldiers after having completed part of one summer of training. I understood what I was when I came back from training (a partly trained soldier) and have tried to learn what I could since then and become a more fully trained soldier.
Despite the many shortcomings of the reserves and the CF in general I encourage new troops to give their all, it does have its pluses. Just remember we aren't super soldiers so keep the egos in check.

------------------
An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

[Soldier of Fortune]

Does anybody have an answer for my question?

[towhey]

Hi Quimby,

If you've followed some of my posts on the LFRR board, then you know that I have argued strongly against "watering down" training for the reserves.

However, this discussion thread was started by someone about to join the CF Army Reserve as a new recruit. It isn't, I think, the right place to be arguing the value of what he/she is about to undergo. It will, no doubt, be more challenging than expected in many ways, and easier than feared in other ways. It always is and always was.

Note, that I argued about the "effectiveness" of the training in my last post. "Hard" and "difficult" are two very subjective terms. I've taken, taught and written long courses and short courses. The long ones weren't necessarily the harder ones. Duration has little to do with "difficulty".

Likewise, quite frankly, the content of the course has little to do with challenge in many cases. Some people find an MBA very difficult, others do not. I did my "recruit" training in 1983. It was hell for me... others slept through the whole program. What I found difficult, others breezed through. What I didn't even notice, forced still others to quit.

Have standards declined in basic training courses? I think they have. Have they declined past a minimum necessary level? I don't know and, frankly, I don't think anyone else does either. This is not a black and white world. We cannot say that throwing a grenade within 10 feet of the target will work, but 11 feet won't. Real life and real war don't work that way.

Quite frankly, most of my regular force courses felt like 20 days worth of good content crammed into four months of training.

Does the fact your course was shorter than the one before it mean it was easier? I don't think so. Maybe your course had kick-ass instructors and the longer one didn't. Maybe the longer course was too long. It is definitely possible to overdo training.

All soldiers, coming off all courses have a sense of accomplishment, if the course was run well. If they don't, then look to poor instructors as the principal culprit.

The soldiers returning to their units this coming fall after their basic training will be proud of what they've done and it should show. Before you crap on them, remember how you felt when you came back -- and how the previous year's "veterans" crapped on you -- and the year prior to that crapped on them.

Same people -- different year. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[towhey]

For Soldier of Fortune:

You asked: "why is there reserves?"

What a great question -- and one around which there is a great amount of debate right now from the newest recruit to the Chief of Defence Staff himself.

As you may know, there are three components to the Canadian Forces: A regular force, a reserve force and a special force.

The regular force are full-time professional soldiers in a standing army, navy and air force.

The special force normally exists only in time of national emergency: i.e. war. A special force was created for the Korean force, and members were drawn from both the regular and reserve forces.

The reserve force is a part-time army, navy and air force. Their roles are many:

1. They provide trained, individual soldiers to augment regular force units for operations -- for example, hundreds (if not thousands) of reservists have served in peacekeeping and similar operations, including Bosnia, Croatia, Cyprus, etc. When my unit went to Croatia and was engaged in the Medak pocket operation (I was not there) they were about 30% reservists, if I recall correctly.

2. They provide some small unit augmentation to regular forces on operations.

3. They provide local military forces for aid of the civil power operations and domestic emergencies: ice storms, floods, earthquakes, tornados, civil unrest, etc.

4. They provide the backbone and skeletal structure for mobilization in time of war. Reserve units will likely form the nucleus of Special Force units stood up to fight in major wars. This is what happened in WWII.

5. In many ways, the reserve is also the militaries touchstone with the real world. As a regular army officer for 14 years, I found that regulars quickly become detached from the realities of civilian life -- we live on bases far from the real world, move every year or two, and have few friends outside the service. It's hard to keep in touch with the values that exist on civvie street. This is one unsung, but important, role the reserves play. Everywhere reservists serve alongside regulars, a little bit of Canadian culture rubs off and keeps the regular army a little more "grounded."

The reserve is a great place to learn things that would take a lifetime to learn anywhere else. Definitely explore the possibilities when you're old enough.


[This message has been edited by towhey (edited 04-08-2001).]

[towhey]

For Soldier of Fortune:

You asked: "why is there reserves?"

What a great question -- and one around which there is a great amount of debate right now from the newest recruit to the Chief of Defence Staff himself.

As you may know, there are three components to the Canadian Forces: A regular force, a reserve force and a special force.

The regular force are full-time professional soldiers in a standing army, navy and air force.

The special force normally exists only in time of national emergency: i.e. war. A special force was created for the Korean force, and members were drawn from both the regular and reserve forces.

The reserve force is a part-time army, navy and air force. Their role is many:

1. They provide trained, individual soldiers to augment regular force units for operations -- for example, hundreds (if not thousands) of reservists have served in peacekeeping and similar operations, including Bosnia, Croatia, Cyprus, etc. When my unit went to Croatia and was engaged in the Medak pocket operation (I was not there) they were about 30% reservists, if I recall correctly.

2. They provide some small unit augmentation to regular forces on operations.

3. They provide local military forces for aid of the civil power operations and domestic emergencies: ice storms, floods, earthquakes, tornados, civil unrest, etc.

4. They provide the backbone and skeletal structure for mobilization in time of war. Reserve units will likely form the nucleus of Special Force units stood up to fight in major wars. This is what happened in WWII.

5. In many ways, the reserve is also the militaries touchstone with the real world. As a regular army officer for 14 years, I found that regulars quickly become detached from the realities of civilian life -- we live on bases far from the real world, move every year or two, and have few friends outside the service. It's hard to keep in touch with the values that exist on civvie street. This is one unsung, but important, role the reserves play. Everywhere reservists serve alongside regulars, a little bit of Canadian culture rubs off and keeps the regular army a little more "grounded."

The reserve is a great place to learn things that would take a lifetime to learn anywhere else. Definitely explore the possibilities when you're old enough.

[Soldier of Fortune]

So I shouldn't join when im 16? I think it would be o.k., don't have to miss school unless there is a war or something. Ladies love a man in uniform.

[Disturbance]

SITREP:

I finally got sworn in last night. Never signed so many papers in my life. Issued all my kit to...they kept handing it to me faster than I could shove it into the bag. I looked like the biggest rookie standing there with my duffle bag about to explode and my ruck(with no shoulder straps) plus my boots and my civvies in my arms, oh and my beret was not on perfect. As Enfield put it I "looked like a bag of shit". It was good though. Learned a lot in the mess to.

So I get to start a pre-Ql2 course now so by the time the real one comes I am better prepared for it, which is a good thing.

-Disturbance

[garett]

That brings up a good point. I'm not too sure that QL2s should be in the JR Mess with the troops before they finish their training. We had a couple of incidents with 16 year old QL2s alittle while ago that involved things happening in the mess, then the 16 year olds went home and told their parents. The events were blown out of proportion and the parents made trouble which ended up in the JR Mess being closed down for a month due to an investigation. I'm completely sure that these things wouldn't have happened if they were trained soldiers, it would of made up the age difference. Messes are bars among other things and un-trained 16 year olds don't seem to know how to comport themselves. Maybe it's the system not the individual. I spent a lot of time in the mess before and during my QL2 course and it benefited me but it seems like a few are ruining it for the rest. When I was on my QL2 course the troops spoke to us very little and it made us want to try harder to impress them through hard work. Now it seems that everyone treats the QL2s like their buddies and they end up walking around feeling like they are equals when they are not and they have much to prove. I've seen to many new privates or candidates on training treat Corporals like they are equals when they should be treated with more respect. The lowering standards in training and the familiarness with the candidates has diminished the sense of acceptance and accomplishment which troops feel upon completion of their training. This is bad for esprit de corps and discipline which these days seems to be non-existent. The lines between the militia and other part time jobs is beginning to blur. After being on demo for an ISCC last summer I'm starting to think that a lot of problems are originating at the junior NCO level.

[Disturbance]

I by NO means feel like an equal to anyone in the regiment. I know my respect must be earned and that takes time and effort and not just swearing in. Its not like I was walking around drinkin my beers being " HEY HOWS IT GOING!!!!" I didnt talk to anyone unless they spoke to me or unless Enfield introduced me to them. Just being able to be in there is enough of an experience for me right now. Trust me I feel like an outsider even though I am in and I am not about 'disturb' anything. And when I do talk to someone I give them all the respect that I possibly can give them cause I know they have earned it

[Soldier of Fortune]

Holy Crap, Even in cadets we have more discipline than what the way u guys explained it. Our Corprals aren't treated as privates!

[garett]

Did you just write cadets........

[Cole]

1. Don't ever bring cadets up again, as a Cadet "Corporal" and an Army Corporal are two different things. Little shithead -Master-Whatever the Fuck- was talking shit to our group down in Fort Lewis like he was the shit. To me them walking the cock is like me lecturing a Warrent on section attacks.

2. Garrett, I think your problem stems not from untrained privates taking part in activities, but with immature 16 year olds. Half of our Depot company, including myself, are 20+ years old, and can recognize the rules of the game down there. We got a little warning shot one afternoon from a corporal, "What goes on in the mess, stays in the mess; and if you blab, we'll curb stomp you one night in the field"...works for me. Besides, me and the other QL 0's sit in our own corner and keep to ourselves, but once in a while, a soldier will come over and give us some genuinely good advice.

3. Congrats Disturbance, keep me posted on your QL2/3 loadings, perhaps we'll be on the same course this summer. And a little note; correct me if I'm wrong, but your a Seaforth, and as I understand Highlanders don't were berets.

[This message has been edited by Cole (edited 04-14-2001).]

[Disturbance]

Hey Cole,

If you are doin your Ql2/3 in Wainwright we will prolly be on course together. And yes I am Seaforth....I was issued a beret and ppl do wear them but a lot of the have a different kind of top. I am not sure what to call it or why it is different...Enfield can explain that though.

what unit are you in? you say you live in Vancity

[Cole]

I think the term for the Highlander's headress is the Glen?
Disturbance, I do indeed live in Vancouver and go to UBC with you. I am with the Royal Westminster Regiment.

[Enfield]

Seaforth (I think it differs between Highland Regiments?) wear two head dresses; the glengarry with dress uniforms, and the balmoral with combats.
Recruits are given a beret because you have to earn the balmoral and Stag's Head. You also have the CF cap badge the "cornflake". In beret wearing units this badge is replaced with the unit badge.
Attached personnel (we have a number, including your instructor, Disturbance) keep their unit's head dress and cap badge. There are a few tradespeople (medics, EME's) that wear a balmoral with their trade badge.

Enfield

[garett]

I think we should all wear Red berets to be like MPs. It would raise the morale of the army and encourage us to police ourselves.

Anyway

Well the day of truth for me is fast approaching. I move 15 minutes down the road to Gagetown to learn how to walk around with no idea what I'm doing, but look like I know what I'm doing. This is otherwise known as phase 1 and 2. If you know any guys that will be on Demo tell them I'll buy them beer if they go easy on us. When I was on ISCC demo I would cut the guys breaks, giving them an extra few metres before I'd start shooting. Tell them what was planned by the DS for the day, suddenly become blind when I'm on an OP and they're doing recce patrols...... You watch out for those future Mcpls and they'll remember it later on.

[DukeM]

Garnett,
Do you think that anyone wearing a maroon or black beret or a balmoral would have their moral raised? The only people that want to look like they’re mp’s are mp’s. Good NCO’s do there own policing, mp’s provide support like everyone else. Give your head a shake.
Do you think that giving any demo troop beer to go easy on you is a good idea? Because of politicians playing solider or vice versa, phase 1 and 2 are getting easier and the iscc is a joke now. If you think that your going to make friends by buying them off, you might be right. But these new friends will have made you the weak leader that intern makes your unit even weaker. So bring the CF down some more and go ahead and buy your demo buddies that beer, we all know you will never lead with respect, but you will waffle your way through phase 2.
A word of advice for anyone on leadership demo, listen to the directions of the ds as they should have the making of good leaders in mind. People like garnett are one reason why the CF is now in ruins.


------------------
The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.

- Thucydides

[garett]

Holy shit you're stupid. Did you really think that I was suggesting we all wear Red Berets? Take your head out of your ass. My whole post was in the form of a joke, grow a sense of humour. People like you are the reason South Park is still on the air. You proved how dumb you are by not even spelling my name right! Its on your damn screen. Helping out the candidates on courses isn't bad, troops look out for each other in all militaries of the world. A couple of tips here and there don't make a difference in the long run, you still gotta go the distance. Someone isn't going to pass jsut because I gave them my chocolate bar out of my ration pack because they're working their ass off while I'm sitting around bored out of my mind. They'll pass either because they're good at what they do or because they are slightly above the set standard. Most of the failures I saw last summer were actually people quiting, either quitting out right or faking an injury. If they failed something they re-did it until they passed and re-tests were always easier then the initial tests. I don't think you can really blame that on demo. Helping out the candidates wasn't exactly our choice either. We were basically told not to blade them. "Demo you'll be out here until all the candidates pass"-section commander. Anyway this thing has gone on long enough.




[This message has been edited by garett (edited 04-15-2001).]

[garett]

After thinking about this for awhile, and cooling down after you calling me Garnett, I guess you have brought up a few good points. First off I was joking about paying off the Phase demo troops. I don't think that the troops I've served with deserve to be led by incompetent officers. When I was a Pte/Cpl I would of flipped out if I had a dumbass platoon commander. What I've realised is we, demo, weren't really given a choice by the people in charge of us and our peers. It would be better if demo troops weren't friends with the people on course and didn't have to be in their sections when the summer was over. If standards were higher, and more clearly defined it would leave very little room for me and my fellow Demo dudes to do what we did last summer and it couldn't really be disputed. I heard that the ISCC has been split up now with more time being spent in the field. Maybe this will help solve certain problems in our Junior leaders that are all too obvious. Quantity over quality continues to prevail in the mo-litia

[DukeM]

Garett: garnett or as Reverend B so eloquently put it …fucking wanker (must have got that from a shit eater).
Your whole post was a joke? You said,” When I was on ISCC demo I would cut the guys breaks, giving them an extra few metres before I'd start shooting. Tell them what was planned by the DS for the day, suddenly become blind when I'm on an OP and they're doing recce patrols...... You watch out for those future Mcpls and they'll remember it later on.” You did this, it’s not a joke and you would expect it now from others, no matter what you say. And who is to say that you did not give them just enough help to make them stay and not quit. You said “Most of the failures I saw last summer were actually people quitting, either quitting out right or faking an injury”. So when the pressure was on you helped a quitter over the mental obstacle, good for you and your unit I bet. I have seen demo troops fight with iscc candidates because of the preverbal “blade”. The response from the Pte in demo troop was” If you want to be a shitty leader in our unit that’s your choice but it won’t be because I helped you.” These two were friends. As a demo troop your not putting the blade to your future leaders, you’re making them do their job, just like you should not be afraid to do yours. And you said” "Demo you'll be out here until all the candidates pass"-section commander. So, that’s your job, what’s another night in the rain compared to having a kick-ass leader in your unit. If you truly understand what I’m talking about and take it to heart…. Garett you might just make a good officer… But I won’t hold my breath.

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The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.

- Thucydides

[garett]

Yeah you're right, I was wrong. I shouldn't of succumbed to the pressure to take it easy on the troops. It was brown nosing for sure. Sorry about writing all that crap, I was just pissed off. I was mostly just bullshittin in the first one, trust me I'm not going to try to pay off the demo guys and I don't want to pass thing summer due to quantity over quality. Its taken me awhile to learn how to think before I speak, now I gotta learn to think before I type. I don't want to fit into the officer stereotype. Thanks for sorting me out.

Garett Hallman, generally sorry for being a wanker in both definitions of the word

[Jomini]

Hey! I'm hopefully going to be taking officer training this summer and was looking for some info on what its like and what to expect. i've read through this thread and got some usefull info, but am a litte confussed in if QL2&3 are standard training for both officers and NCM. Also I have been having a hard time finding out about any dates of when training starts and ends.
And are is anyone out there going for officer training this summer?

[Jomini]

Oh yah and another thing is this the same training for both reserves and regular force or just reserves?

[towhey]

Hi Jomini,

Officers do not take the same basic training courses as non-commissioned members, although their basic training covers pretty much the same topics, plus leadership, management, paper work, etc.

Generally, reserve army basic training courses are not the same as regular force basic training courses. Generally, reservists take a shorter course covering a subset of skills -- or the same skills with less practice/application time -- that are taught to regulars.

For officers, however, this depends on your military occupation and enrolment plan. If you are enrolled as a Reserve Entry Scheme Officer (RESO) in the combat arms (Infantry, Armour, Artillery, Engineers) then you will likely attend the regular force Phase 2 training course. It is run in the summer for the officer cadets attending military college.

If you are a RESO officer, but not in the combat arms (logistics, etc.) then I don't know if you will be taking the regular force course. Some years ago, many of these trades set up their own training program for reservists, separate from the regular force course. I don't know why as that seems to completely negate the value of the RESO program, in my mind. But, I guess it works for them.

If you're not a RESO officer, then you will likely take your initial training in 2-3 week "blocks" of training designed exclusively for reserve officers, and taught by reservists. Depending on scheduling, you may be able to take up to three of these courses in one summer, and come out of the summer with the same qualification as the RESO candidates -- i.e. 2Lieutenant qualified.

Good luck!

[This message has been edited by towhey (edited 04-19-2001).]

[Barney]

Jomini, if you're not a RESO Officer, you will be taking Basic Officer Training (BOT) I & II, and Basic Army Officer Training (BAOT). I can't remember the exact length of these courses, but they are about two weeks each and typically run mid July to end August. I know that for Central Area at least, they are run at CFB Petawawa.

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Death to the Purple One

[garett]

I'm on Pre-RESO for AATC from 27 April 01 to May 4th. That weekend its move to the H lines then RESO 1 starts with the Infantry School for 3 weeks. After that its another 7 weeks with the Infantry School then 3 weeks trade specific which for me is another 3 weeks with the cheery Sgts from the Infantry School. I guess grad is around the 10th of August. If you're on RESO this summer you'd probably know by now unless your unit is screwed.

[Jomini]

I'll be doing RESO as Armoured Recce for the BCR out of Vancouver( if all goes well). I've been told that it starts some time in May and ends some time in Aug but cant get any specific dates. As well i was told it would be held back east, were though I'm not quite sure.

[garett]

Phase training is held in sunny CFB Gagetown. You'll have to be on Phase 1 so thats starting in like 21/2-3 weeks. Looks like your unit is pretty screwed up if you don't know all this by now. Whats your e-mail address I can give you a good run down on what I know about this summer.

[Jomini]

thanks for all the info garrett. I've just got my physical to do and they say i should be ready to go.

[Jomini]

thanks for all the info garrett. I've just got my physical to do and they say i should be ready to go.

[Marauder]

For anyone who cares, I was sworn in tonight with the Essex and Kent Scottish Regiment. My ass now officially belongs to the CF. I ship on 3 July to Camp Meaford for roughly two months of fun and frolic.

Semper Paratus,
Brett aka Marauder
http://www.ekscot.com/1_platoon/EK_COLOR_CAPBADGE.gif

[Cole]

Cool... Hey Marauder, Congrats, and welcome to the bottom of the pile!
http://westies.bc.ca/images/capbadge.gif

[This message has been edited by Cole (edited 05-16-2001).]

[Disturbance]

Hey Cole
You doing the ql2/3 this summer in wainwright? If so we should meet up somehow on course ( I dont know how many ppl to expect )Like I said right now its me and 3 other guys and I just met about 6 other guys who just finished their ql2 and will be doing their 3 this summer as well.
Anyways get back to me - you can use my email if ya want.

-Disturbance

[zulu46]

Jomini,
You'll start in May and finish in Aug. In Gagetown, at the Armoured school. The officers take the same course as and with the NCM's for logistic reasons. If you don't have dates yet post me and I'll put them here. Although you should be there for the Pt 1 as it started 14 May.
Pt 1 - Basic crew commander with MCpls
Pt 2 - Patrol commander, offence , MCpl 6A crse
Pt 3 - Ptl Com, defence, MCpl 6A Crse
Pt 4 - Tp Ldr, offence, Sgt 6B crse
Pt 5 - Tp Ldr, defence, Sgt 6B crse
Note that on the 6B portion for sgts you will have to act as Troop Warrant doing hide procedure etc, but will not be marked. The sgts will be marked both as Tp WO and as Tp Ldr. You'll also have to stick around at the end for some admin lessons and a field ex. Word of advice - don't listen to anything Little Lord Monforton tells you!!! he's a lying, snivelling, pompous, self serving fuckwad and will cut your throat to get his head further up the Col's ass. He also was the worst student on his course last year. He's got nothing to teach you.

[Cole]

Whoa, a little aggression there Zulu...
How come your profile is the same as all the other newbie posters?

[Drew]

Cole,
No agression, just all plain ol'fact. Personally, I don't care, just trying to warn a new guy that will have to work for Monforton, the operative word here being for and not with. The profile is for a new member to this forum because that's what I am, but I don't know how I got this username as it's not the one I posted, but what the hey, I'm on. This thread was started by Disturbance, and we're getting off topic. Start a new one if you got ?'s

[Cole]

Sorry Drew,
I checked all these profiles and there all changed, that means that it is something wrong with the server. Fire away.

[centurion]

Cole,
I think it's working. If it says "centurion" that's me.

[Disturbance]

The centurian was the hardest drinking game I have ever played...after 50 it was not even fun just painful. One of my buddies made it to 97 then puked beer (cause thats all there was in him) all over the damn kitchen.

[Cole]

My favorite was "Thunderstruck".
1. Play ACDC's "Thunderstruck
2. Take a drink everytime you hear the word thunder.
3. Repeat if neccessary.