Now It Starts.

[apfsds]

Well, at least today after the first strike, Canada was mentioned, as a good friend, but not a staunch one like Britian. At least we were mentioned this time. They say we're contributing militarily. Any guesses on what? Some Comms guys, maybe get JTF2 some battle honours? Somehow, I don't think Canada is gong to be doing much wi th the US on this. Minding the UN store for them probably.

[garett]

I'm going to assume you're joking about the JTF battle honour thing.

Something that I've heard is that Canadian Forces will replace US forces in Bosnia to free them up for participation. Who knows, I called my Coy 2i/c and he hasn't heard anything.

[apfsds]

Yea, I take the whole JTF2 thing concerning this action with a grain of salt. Never know though, they might try to prove a point. Maybe some Afgans will try to hijack one of our aged hercs, call the boys!

[apfsds]

Just watched the news and it looks for the most part like some airforce stuff, AWACS & 18's.

[Enfield]

Originally posted by apfsds:
Just watched the news and it looks for the most part like some airforce stuff, AWACS & 18's.

Yeah, that's been a mistake the media has been making or - the government's been trying to pull - lately. Canada has no AWACs. We do, however, contribute to a NATO AWACs unit in Europe - just a few personnel.
The US needs more aircraft like it needs a hole in the head. They could easily put more aircraft or troops in theatre, but they just aren't needed. There just aren't enough targets in Afghanistan to bring 2,000 fighter bombers in.
Bringing in other nations has a number of drawbacks - allies get a seat at the decision making table and have a say in choosing targets, there are issues of compatibility, logistics, and security. ANY deplpoyment of non-US/UK forces (well, maybe French too) is purely a diplomatic step. If, say JTF2 is deployed, that means a) we either have to bring a long a whole logistics, intelligence, command, comms, etc. caravan or b) the US supplies it.
Now, I find option A imrobable because i can hardly see JTF2 deep in Afghanistan being supplied, inserted, and extracted by Griffon's, among other things.
If we follow option b), then why not just have the US supply the sharp end as well since they already provide the logistical tail.
Oh yeah, everyone keeps talking about the CF's specialty in communications - I take it they don't mean the 77 sets???

[apfsds]

From Oct 4, Globe and Mail.
"Mr. Eggleton has signed an order allowing the approximately 100 Canadians serving with other North Atlantic Treaty Organization units to participate in any antiterrorist strike. That would, for example, allow joint Canada-U.S. crews aboard AWACS surveillance craft to be part of any air operations against targets in Afghanistan."

[garett]

Yeah this "contribution" is a frickin joke.

[towhey]

FYI...

MND and CDS announced at 12:30 ET that "components of" JTF-2 would be involved in the campaign.

Also: HMCS Halifax, diverted from STANAVFORLANT to a US Carrier Group, I think.

Also: 4 ship Naval Task Group (1x Destroyer, 2 x Frigates (1 to replace HMCS Halifax in STANAVFORLANT) and one AOR.

Also: HMCS Vancouver (cfm?) from the West Coast.

Also: CC-130 for humanitarian ops in theatre.

Also: 2 x Aurora Maritime Patrol aircraft for surveillance ops in theatre.

[Enfield]

I just heard that info too. Sounds good. No "sharp end" assets besides JTF, but at least it's a noticeable contribution. Any news on what other cuntries are contibuting?

[Barney]

Interesting, I wonder if our patrol frigates are capable of recieving data feeds from Aegis cruisers - that is, can they be an effective part of the air defence coverage of the carrier battle group. Otherwise, why bother?

I was kind of wishing that we'd send the Field Hospital. That way, I'd at least stand a chance of going somewhere for once in my career.....

As for JTF2, let's hope the big boys are as good as they think they are. Afghans are less than nice to prisoners....

------------------
Death to the Purple One

[Barney]

Interesting, I wonder if our patrol frigates are capable of recieving data feeds from Aegis cruisers - that is, can they be an effective part of the air defence coverage of the carrier battle group. Otherwise, why bother?

I was kind of wishing that we'd send the Field Hospital. That way, I'd at least stand a chance of going somewhere for once in my career.....

As for JTF2, let's hope the big boys are as good as they think they are. Afghans are less than nice to prisoners....

------------------
Death to the Purple One

[garett]

Yeah its just super that we're sending our Navy to fight a landlocked country, hopefully everyone gets a nice medal out of it.

[Enfield]

Originally posted by garett:
Yeah its just super that we're sending our Navy to fight a landlocked country, hopefully everyone gets a nice medal out of it.

Brilliant amigo. That country also has no air force, but take a look at NY. They have no Navy, but there's still a hole in the side of the Cole. Expect the unexpected and be ready. Right now we are the ONLY other nation to be contributing, making us the 3rd largest force in the Coalition. France, Italy, Germany, and Australia are still dickering and sitting on their thumbs.
I'm proud of Canada for doing this, and I have say I'm surprised.
Anyways, we can't send fighters because all the raids are being done from carriers, or by bombers from Diego Garcia. They don't plan to include a ground invasion, so there's not much room for the Canandian army. I think we contributed what would be useful.
And everyone talks about the British contribution, but almost all of their force sin the region are part of the Armoured Division in Oman on ex - not much use for hunting bandits in mountains.

CBC makes me laugh... today they said "components of Canada's commando Brigade, JTF2" and the reason we aren't sending CF-18's is because "canadian pilots aren't trained to land on carriers." And their article on JTF2 that has a picture of SAS soldiers in Sierra Leone (I still think they're actually pathfinders) and talks all about Delta and SAS.

And Barney, Canandian ships are able to be fully integrated into US task forces, and a year or two ago a Canandian frigate in the gulf was the sole escort for a US carrier. And right now everything is being staged off the ships - a bunch of amphibious assault ships, plus the Kitty Hawk was cleared pf aircraft and made into a floating special forces base - so not much call, yet, for anything green.

[towhey]

And, let's not forget that this will be a nasty, long effort... completely unlike anything we've seen in my lifetime... or in the lives of any of my ancestors, for that matter.

The action will not all be overseas. During this war, there is a very real threat to Canadians in their homes.

We have a small military... let's not send it all overseas, eh? We may need some field hospitals, CF-18's and green jobs right here in downtown sleepyville.

[FNG]

Barney: Probably not... I'm sure they designed the AEGIS system to be able to work with other AEGIS equipped ships autonomously to form a defense umbrella; but for a non-AEGIS equipped Canadian ship, I would think that any firing orders will have to be communicated through humans, and individual targeting solutions plotted by our ships before they can engage.

That's just from my basic understanding of the system. I'm just a grunt.

[Infanteer]

Well it is good to see that Eggleton can put his money where his mouth is...I bet he was forced into it by Manley, I'm starting to like that guy. Now lets just see if the strain this contribution puts onto the Forces is a wake-up call to Ottawa to quit ignoring us.

[abprar]

Enfield my old mate.
Australia pledged the SASR,Air refuelers,and our navy (big deal the navy).That was last week so I don't think we have been sitting on our thumbs.An Attack on the US was seen as an attack on the ANZUS alliance which our prime minister was ratiftying in Washington the day those planes hit.The little weazel actually got a standing ovation in the US congress the first time they sat after the attack.
We got no one to send because basically we mirror Canada and our little army is tired down in Timor and Bouganville.There was talk of sending our Airborne also but I doubt it.
Also fellas, my sources tell me that JTF2 is mainly a Black role outfit and has mounties in it....how do you reckon they'd go in the mountains of "The GAN"?
I suspect our SASR will have some problems as I don't think there is any Jungle in "The GAN" and by christ we hate the cold.

[TonyM]

Did anyone else catch the Minister of Ostriches phrase "At this point Canada has little to fear...." and then went on to quickly correct himself. Talk about asking for it. I just sat there in disbelief. Even my wife picked up on it and said "That idiot just put the whole country in danger! The terrorists probably didn't care about us before, but if they're watching this, now they will do something." I think she's right.

[This message has been edited by TonyM (edited 10-09-2001).]

[archie]

Well I have a little bit to say on this subject. I think Canada has made quite a contribution to the effort. I'm sure we've contributed tons of intelligence to the US. And let's not forget, you can't go anywhere or fight anyone without good intelligence.
The deployment of JTF2 was not a big surprise to me. The fact that Eggleton admited it to the press was a huge surprise to me. And I bet the boys down at Dwyer Hill were'nt too pleased about that either. I think that this will help JTF2 prove themselves in a "green" role as opposed to the black roles they're accustomed to. It's great that they want to expand in to these roles, because god knows we need some force that can fight these kinds of unconventional warfare. Not to disrespect our reg force infantry battalions, but they're not adequately trained to deal with mountains, nor is any regular infantry soldier, be it US or Canadian or Aussie. It's time to either expand JTF2 into these roles, or form another unit along the lines of it........oh wait you mean a unit like the Airborne Regiment.........tisk tisk

[garett]

Just not really my idea of getting "stuck in". But those LAV IIIs sure do look good.

[Enfield]

abprar- sorry, didn't mean to slag the aussies, was just trying to show that Canada is taking action in this situation. And, so far, we are the only other nation to have ships and aircraft getting ready to go and already committed.
As to JTF2's green and black capabilities, well, they're supposed to have both. What they've done, where they've done it, who exactly they've trained with, well, that's all hush-hush. So we'll see.

Anybody see France's contribution? haha. They will contribute militarily, but will decide to take part in various actions on case-by-case basis. Useless. Why bother showing up??? This is why they don't want a huge coalition.

FNG - how exactly the mechanics of naval defense systems work, I don't know, but our navy can be fully integrated into American battle groups - it's been pretty obvious for a long time our Navy won't be doing much without the USN or RN around.


I'm curious - there's a lot of talk about having the CF "specialize" - what exactly does that mean? The current organization doen'nt reflect this- we have new frigates, and new submarines, but tin can helicopters. We have a fleet of CF-18s - but only a handful of Hercs. We have an army of general warfighting infantry, but no "commando/rangers", and a few aging tanks. We can't use the words "war" or aggressive or do an operation that is non-humanitarian, but "we aren't a pacifist nation". We have nice new LAVs and Coyotes, but need Russian contractors to move them. And the Reserves are being slowly changed into trained snow-shovelers.

Ok, CBC is aying that Cananda was the 3rd or 4th largest Western contributor to the Gulf. True?


[This message has been edited by Enfield (edited 10-09-2001).]

[TonyM]

Ahh Enfield, your struggling to understand "Politcalese". It's an interesting dialect of English made up completely of oxy-moronic statements, catch-phrases, fence-straddling speeches, timely historic quotes and assorted meaningless but totally correct trivia. Soon it will be taught in Universities across North Amercia. The Masters program will include a minor in Sound Biteology.

[King]

UNITED STATES - 540,000 troops, 6 aircraft carriers, submarines, 4,000 tanks, 1,700 helicopters, 1,800 airplanes

SAUDI ARABIA - 118,000 troops, 550 tanks, 180 airplanes

BRITAIN - 43,000 troops, 6 destroyers, 4 frigates, 3 minesweepers, 168 tanks, 300 armored vehicles, 70 jets

UNITED ARAB EMRIATES - 40,000 troops, 80 planes, 200 tanks

EGYPT - 40,000 troops (5,000 special forces, paratroopers)

OMAN - 25,500 troops, 63 airplanes, 4 Exocet-armed ships

FRANCE - 18,000 troops, 60 combat aircraft, 120

SYRIA - 17,000 troops, 300 T-62 tanks

KUWAIT - 11,000 troops, 2 missle boats, 1 barge operations platform

BANGLADESH - 6,000 troops

CANADA - 2 destroyers, 12 C-130 planes, 24 CF-18 bombers, 4500 troops, Field Hospital (1 Canadian Field Hospital)

ITALY - 3 frigates, 4 minesweepers, 10 Tornado Aircraft

GERMANY - Jagdbombergeschwader 43 consisting of 18 Alpha-Jets and 212 soldiers stationed in Erhac/Turkey during the gulf war.
5 Minesweeper, 2 Supply Vessels, 500 sailors altogether.

Australia - HMAS SYDNEY FFG03 Guided Missile Frigate, HMAS BRISBANE DDG 41 Guided Missle Destroyer, HMAS SUCCESS OR 304 Auxiliary Oiler Replenishment, HMAS WESTRALIA Ao-195 Underway Replenishment Ship

CZECHOSLVAKIA - 200 chemical warfare specialists helicopters, 40 tanks, 1 missle cruiser, 3 destroyers, 4 frigates

BELGIUM - 1 frigate, 2 minesweepers, 2 landing ships, 6 C-130 planes

Technically we're at number 11, with places like Bangladesh, Oman, and the UAE ahead. Of course the entire armed forces of some of these nations was counted since they were so close to the war. So the CBC was right, if you only consider western nations. We ranked behind the U.S., Britain, and France.

[FNG]

And in other news... this is now official policy. Got the info from my chain yesterday.

VICTORIA -- Canada's men and women in the military are being told to wear their uniforms proudly -- once they get to work.

In an unprecedented move, the Department of National Defence is ordering personnel not to wear uniforms off-base for security reasons as Canada's troops prepare to join the U.S.-led war against terrorism.

Members of the Canadian Forces must arrive for work in civilian clothes and change into uniform once they report for duty. The new policy is being put into effect as security is heightened at bases across the country.

"It's for security reasons," said Lieutenant Pierrette LeDrew, a Defence spokeswoman in Ottawa. "This policy applies to everybody."

The dress-code edict came down Monday -- the same day Defence Minister Art Eggleton announced Canada is sending 2,000 troops to support the U.S. campaign.
Military personnel are being told to keep a low profile in public. But officials were tight-lipped yesterday about security changes in the wake of Monday's announcement.

"We can't really discuss why these measures are being taken," said Lieutenant-Commander Yves Vanier of CFB Esquimalt outside Victoria.

He would not say whether any threats against Canadian military personnel have been made.

"It's part of the whole picture of ensuring the safety of our personnel," he said. "All these measures are being taken as a precaution."

Military police were stationed outside CFB Esquimalt yesterday to make sure only Forces members and authorized civilians entered the base. The MPs checked trunks and back seats before allowing vehicles through the gates.

About 225 members from CFB Esquimalt are among the 2,000 troops to be deployed, Canada's largest military effort since the Korean War. The contribution, called Operation Apollo, includes six warships and six aircraft. The Esquimalt-based frigate HMCS Vancouver and its crew of 225 are currently conducting military exercises off the coast of California.

Telling members of the military not to wear uniforms while off duty is highly unusual, said retired colonel Michel Drapeau of Ottawa.

"I've never heard of it," he said. "I'm puzzled by it. I think [the uniform] provides some measure of psychological support for the population. I find it unusual, to say the least."

HMCS Vancouver will return to the Vancouver Island base later this month so its crew can be reunited with family before joining a U.S. aircraft-carrier group as part of Operation Apollo.

Relatives of the frigate's crew are anxiously waiting for their loved ones to return. The ship set sail Saturday for the military exercise and is expected back by Oct. 20.

Lorie Hall was expecting her husband Mike to be gone for a few weeks on the training exercise. Now, uncertainty and fear hang over the next few months.

Mrs. Hall said she is relieved she and the couple's two-year-old son Robbie will get a chance to spend some time with her husband before the frigate is deployed.

[garett]

Yeah I was told about that uniform thing at work yesterday morning. What a joke, I think as suggested by my Coy 2i/c we should go the other way and wear them everywhere. I think I'll wear a wig and a pair of those glasses with a fake nose and mustache to work on Thursday night just to make sure I don't get shot by any Taliban snipers.

[Enfield]

Hey all,
Well, I guess the uniform things has its pros and cons. Whatever, I think it won't be enforced that much at our level.

Looking at CBC the past couple days, I see a lot of polictians from all parties saying how they support the CF and are proud, yadayadayada. And the CBC message boards are full of people with well wishes for the task force - which is good. But - where were all these people and support when the Airborne was disbanded? When our budget was at 9 bill a year? When the Somalia scandal was on? If we have so much support where are our new helicopters? Or where are the 5,000 recruits we need?
Fairweather friends.


"Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll."
- from Tommy, by Kipling

[Marauder]

Originally posted by FNG:
About 225 members from CFB Esquimalt are among the 2,000 troops to be deployed, Canada's largest military effort since the Korean War. The contribution, called Operation Apollo, includes six warships and six aircraft.

And THAT, gentlemen, is the best indicator I have heard to show how far we have fallen since WWII as both a miltary and a country. The thousands upon thousands of men and boys who shed their blood to protect everything we enjoy today must be spinning in their graves. So much for "rest in peace".

[abprar]

Maybe we should all just form a type of Commonwealth fire brigade like in Korea.A joint British,Australian,New Zealand,Canadian and South African Task force.For special missions.......I'm just dreaming I guess,long gone are the days of the empire.I reckon it would be an awesome force infantry wise anyway.

[FNG]

LOL, the uniform policy just got reversed.

[Disturbance]

FNG....you mean we are suppose to wear our uniforms now??

[FNG]

It appears so. I am parading in a few hours, I'll let you know what the official position is.

OTTAWA - Canada's soldiers can wear their uniforms to and from work once again after defence officials decided the security measure was no longer needed.

The order to put on civilian clothes while off-duty went out after the government announced details of the Canadian Forces' participation in a U.S.-led anti-terrorist military campaign earlier this week.

"We went into a sort of defensive posture in consideration of any potential threat, there was no specific threat," said Randy Mylyk, spokesperson for Defence Minister Art Eggleton.

"The security risk was certainly higher than normal so they practised due diligence as an immediate precaution... You could call it the immediate precautionary period.''

Mylyk said another general message dropping the requirement was to go out to military bases last night.

However, he added, it may be reinstated if officials decide there's some heightened threat in the future.

The defence department is trying to balance the need to offer Canadians the "visible reassurance" of seeing military personnel in uniform on their streets and being vigilant about personal security.

[TonyM]

Just catching the BBC 2200Z news, they're saying 2 Canadians were shot walking on a beach in Kuwait. Anyone else heard about this?

[FNG]

Tony: Yes, a Canadian man (aircraft mechanic)and his Filippino wife were shot in a marketplace in Kuwait. The man was killed, and his wife seriously wounded. Reports state that a man got out of a car and fired at them with an automatic weapon.

[Enfield]

Anybody else doing Armoury Security? Following orders from higher up, we now have 2-3 guards on duty whenever the building is being used. All day, and on nights when it's open. Checking people that come in, signing people in, stuff like that. I spent last night letting cadets in and asking parents why they were there.
Not much, but it's something. I have a regular shift now... more $$$$!!!
We also moved all the vehicles and some stuff inside and have big piles of rations and a hundred jerries full of water on the parade square.
Oh, Infanteer, what unit are you in?

[FNG]

Disturbance:

The word, at least from my unit, is that you can wear your uniform to and from work only if you are traveling in your own vehicle. You must bring your uniform to work if you take public transportation.

[garett]

Nope no extra security here. We're hosting a function for the Canadian Infantry Association Saturday night and theres going to be like 100 Colonels and Generals at our armories so you'd think there might be a bit or security for that but I haven't heard anything.

On another note we had the guys from Clothe the Soldier in tonight showing us some new weapons and the new kit. Its some cool shit for sure, I hope I'm still in the army in 2020 when we get it.

[King]

Just for interest sake, the CBC in going to be doing an all day look at the CF on Oct. 30. There will also be a townhall discussion, most likely hosted by the CBC's own golden boy Peter Mansbridge.

[VENOM]

Enfield

Here in Valcartier/quebec we are on guarding duties too.The entrance gates have more security added. But at least now I can wear my uniform when I go to work http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[Enfield]

We still cna't wear our uniforms, but I think that's just a glitch in the chain of command - word never got down. I was at 39 Bde HQ today and all the personnel there were changing into uniforms at work. There's a new gatehouse with concrete blocks and guards in front now too. Apparently there have been a couple "incidents" at DND facilities in Vancouver. We'll see what happens, but this guard thing is defintley a regular gig now.

[King]

This was posted at The War Diary message board. Pretty funny.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~dromero/diplomacy.swf

[Enfield]

Quotes from the Governor-General, taken from a CBC article:

Speaking to members of the Armed Forces in Halifax, Adrienne Clarkson said Canadians are known throughout the world "for our ability to maintain justice and do what is right, to bring peace to those far and near."

>> We are? Is that why NATO said last year that we can't meet our commitments, and the CDA says we are impotent. Right now Poland has more troops committed to the UN, while the US has more troops owrking for NATO. I'm trying to figure out how we, with the smallest defence expenditure per capita in NATO (except for Luxembourg) and a PR program that fails to convince our own public we can do anything, how we manage do convinced the world we are so great.


"It is difficult. It is trying. This is a role which history has allotted us," she said.
>>No you silly woman, it's a role the federal government gave us. Yes, it is difficult having a government that refuses to provide the CF with the proper resources, and it is trying to have a public that doesn't give a damn. It is the role you have pretended to fund us for - because we sure as hell ain't funded to provide a brigade to NATO, or to defend Cananda.

A seperate point:
Any idea who the guards are at the Naval base gates right now? I think they're just the 'Base Defense Force' - a hodge-podge of personnel rotating through. Anyone else think this would be a great role for the Reserves? If something did happen, I trust a Militia infanteer a lot more than I trust a Navy clerk.

[FNG]

Enfield: That's already been implemented with Base Defense Forces in some parts of the country.

[TonyM]

"I trust a Militia infanteer a lot more than I trust a Navy clerk"

The DND dosen't. When the Reverend and I were trying to get a rifle team going, he found out that even if you're small arms inst qual'd you have to be either a res Warrant or a reg MCpl to be in charge of weapons / ammo. That's the equivalncey in training and trust they make.

[King]

Here is some more of the inspiring speech from the Commander-in-Chief.

"Canadians must go to war mindful of two national features: a tradition of justice and tolerence..."

"Face the enemy with peace... but bearing a sword. No matter what we are called upon to witness, fight or reconcile, we must remain what we are - Canadians, citizens of a democratic and noble experiment that has worked."

"Throughout Canadian history, we have lurched and lunged, sprinted and sauntered through a forest of ignorance, hatred, and bigotry and hacked out for ourselves a path
towards a clearing, a lighted place which, make no mistake, can only remain a clearing if we maintain it."

Clarkson of course, neglected to mention who the enemy was (bin Laden and the Taliban) and didn't say why the west has been pushed into defending that lighted clearing (WTC bombing). Considering the goverment who appointed her and her own past actions and words (or lack of them) she doesn't see the military as the best, or even an important way to ensure this enlightened clearing (that last one seems a bit too much) is maintained. She also doesn't seem to recognize that the best way to protect democracy isn't always through democracy. The CF shouldn't be reflective of Canadian society.


[This message has been edited by King (edited 10-16-2001).]

[Enfield]

Two things...
I feel bad for the sailors that had to be put through that political dog and pony show as the talking heads lined up to say their bit. Imagine being within hours of deploying for an unspecified time and having to put up with the PM, MND, Gov-General, Premier, CDS, and whoever else get up and yabber out peace justice and diversity. I appreciate that it was good of them to come, but did they really have to say anything?

Second.. check out arab or middle eastern news agencies. It's fairly interesting, and disturbing. Here's a few sites I found:
metimes.com www.arabnews.com (http://www.arabnews.com) www.gulfstatesnews.com (http://www.gulfstatesnews.com)

Reading them leads me tos eriously question the "coalition"