A Small, Quiet Message..

[Boats]

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)
5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

[SOTB]

I knew it -- Xmas is really about taxes....

[MoonDog]

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)
5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

Health Care Reform at it's earliest stages.....:cool:

[magician]

Excellent.

Even though it was only Cyrenius in Syria, this gives us the pretext that we need to launch the cruise missiles onto my target list in that country.

Am I the only guy playing "Fantasy NSC" today?

[low country]

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)
5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

With all that is going on with the commercialism and political correctness, the real reason for the season is nice to hear!

Thanks

[KidA]

I knew it -- Xmas is really about taxes....

Anyone else find it silly to imagine the Romans requiring every single person under their control to pack up and travel great distances to get back to the city where they were born simply to levy a tax upon them? :biggrin:

[Spot379th]

So that a census could be takened...

Yep, Big Government at work, never fails...

[Longrifle]

Thanks, Boats.

KidA - lots of stupid things are done in the name of taxes. Take the Domesday Book mandated by William I. Sounds sorta like what the Romans did.

[KidA]

Thanks, Boats.

KidA - lots of stupid things are done in the name of taxes. Take the Domesday Book mandated by William I. Sounds sorta like what the Romans did.

While I agree in theory, there's no record, in the extensive records kept by the Romans, that this event ever occurred...at least at the time Luke claims.

Not to mention could you imagine the spectacle? Millions of people having to travel all at the same time, interrupt their work, close up shop, travel by foot hundreds of miles to get back to wherever it was they happened to have been born? The Romans were experts in efficiency - this is about the most ridiculous idea ever imagined - unless you consider it a little truth fudging on the part of Luke to make a birth fit in with prophesy...

:biggrin:

[Longrifle]

While I agree in theory, there's no record, in the extensive records kept by the Romans, that this event ever occurred...at least at the time Luke claims.

:biggrin:
Just as there were no records that Pontius Pilate was a historical figure, either, until they found the archeological evidence under the stadium seat of an amphitheater.

The nonexistence of "proof" is not proof of nonexistence.

[Papa Smurf]

Anyone else find it silly to imagine the Romans requiring every single person under their control to pack up and travel great distances to get back to the city where they were born simply to levy a tax upon them? :biggrin:

KidA - its called 'literary artistic license' with the story for dramatic effect. The writer also said the census was ordered by Caesar Augustus at the time King Herod ruled Judea and Quirinius (Publius Sulpicius Quirinius) was governor of Judea.

The census, held in 6 CE, is the only census held while Quirinius was governor of Syria and it was to determine the amount of revenue the state would receive now that Judaea had been annexed into Syria which was governed by Quirinius. It was also to settle the estate of Archelaus, the son of Herod the Great, the previous ruler who had been deposed.

Problem is -King Herod had been dead for nearly 10 years when Archelaus was deposed as governor.

But, I digress; on with the festivities... Back to the pumpkin pie... :cool:

[SOTB]

Back to the pumpkin pie....I think I fucked up yesterday. We were buying pies (yes, vice baking them ourselves) at Whole Foods -- and we bought apple pie and vanilla ice cream. I think i would have been better served with the pumpkin or sweat potato. Fortunately, I got gas yesterday -- so we can go back to the store!!!!:biggrin:

[Papa Smurf]

I think I fucked up yesterday. We were buying pies (yes, vice baking them ourselves) at Whole Foods -- and we bought apple pie and vanilla ice cream. I think i would have been better served with the pumpkin or sweat potato. Fortunately, I got gas yesterday -- so we can go back to the store!!!!:biggrin:

Pie - it is one of the best culinary indulgences ever invented.

[Greenhat]

While I agree in theory, there's no record, in the extensive records kept by the Romans, that this event ever occurred...at least at the time Luke claims.

Not to mention could you imagine the spectacle? Millions of people having to travel all at the same time, interrupt their work, close up shop, travel by foot hundreds of miles to get back to wherever it was they happened to have been born? The Romans were experts in efficiency - this is about the most ridiculous idea ever imagined - unless you consider it a little truth fudging on the part of Luke to make a birth fit in with prophesy...

:biggrin:

Thailand does it every time they have an election. People have to go to their home town (generally their place of birth) in order to vote.

I'd bet that 2000 years ago, the great majority of people lived within a short walk of where they had been born.

[SOTB]

I'd bet that 2000 years ago, the great majority of people lived within a short walk of where they had been born.I think that is a reasonable statement. I also think it might have been reasonable for the Romans to want the census to have some sort of validation that might occur with people arriving at their HOB....

[KidA]

I think that is a reasonable statement. I also think it might have been reasonable for the Romans to want the census to have some sort of validation that might occur with people arriving at their HOB....

I'll concede, provided someone can show me proof that the Romans ever conducted a census in this manner. Shouldn't be too difficult to find, right?

Of course then there's Papa Smurf's evidence about the whole timeline of things...Herod suppossedly being King at the time of Jesus' birth (you know, for the whole mass slaughter of baby boys that ONLY Matthew mentions, and no other biblical writer, or chronicler of events of the time mentions. Not even Josephus, who pretty much wrote down the entire events of Herod's reign, to include all his nastiness, fails to mention that Herod supossedly ordered the mass extinction of young boys), and the govenor of Syria in the biblical passage only became governor 10 years after the death of Herod. So how can Cyrineus order a tax AND Herod be King at the same time? The evidence is clear Cyrineus came 10 years after Herod.


Further: even IF Rome had tried to do this (trust me, they didn't - Rome didn't collect taxes from the people directly - they left that up to local rulers who would collect then send to Rome) they only counted male members - meaning Joseph would have travelled alone - not dragged a heavily pregnant Mary with him.

Luke says Mary and Joseph lived in Nazareth and travelled to Bethlehem, Matthews says they lived in Bethlehem and travelled to Nazareth. Of course only Matthew mentions the tax/census thing...none of the others do.

Matthew also claims they fled to Egypt (to avoid that whole mass slaughter of baby boys decreed by Herod). Luke says they just went back to Nazareth.

ANyway, is it time for the Christmas whiskey yet? :biggrin:

[SOTB]

ANyway, is it time for the Christmas whiskey yet?Dude, I'm not at all supporting the idea that these two were summoned to Bethlehem, or went, or that there was a magical birth -- etc. I just think that people probably didn't generally live too far from their HOB, and that the Romans might have desired to know how many people were under their rule -- all of the rest of the stuff, well, I'm into the idea of the whiskey....:biggrin:

[OldSwabbie]

I'll concede, provided someone can show me proof that the Romans ever conducted a census in this manner. Shouldn't be too difficult to find, right?

Of course then there's Papa Smurf's evidence about the whole timeline of things...Herod suppossedly being King at the time of Jesus' birth (you know, for the whole mass slaughter of baby boys that ONLY Matthew mentions, and no other biblical writer, or chronicler of events of the time mentions. Not even Josephus, who pretty much wrote down the entire events of Herod's reign, to include all his nastiness, fails to mention that Herod supossedly ordered the mass extinction of young boys), and the govenor of Syria in the biblical passage only became governor 10 years after the death of Herod. So how can Cyrineus order a tax AND Herod be King at the same time? The evidence is clear Cyrineus came 10 years after Herod.


Further: even IF Rome had tried to do this (trust me, they didn't - Rome didn't collect taxes from the people directly - they left that up to local rulers who would collect then send to Rome) they only counted male members - meaning Joseph would have travelled alone - not dragged a heavily pregnant Mary with him.

Luke says Mary and Joseph lived in Nazareth and travelled to Bethlehem, Matthews says they lived in Bethlehem and travelled to Nazareth. Of course only Matthew mentions the tax/census thing...none of the others do.

Matthew also claims they fled to Egypt (to avoid that whole mass slaughter of baby boys decreed by Herod). Luke says they just went back to Nazareth.

ANyway, is it time for the Christmas whiskey yet? :biggrin:

Flavius Josephus mentions ALOT in his chronicles.. I have all the hard cover books. My wife bought them when I was getting my degree (AA, BS Biblical Studies). The problem is, Flavius Josephus, Pliny, all the historians of the day lived in the constant light of the Roman Government... which was opressive. They just didnt write whatever they wanted.. that would have them judged and executed if they wrote something against the emperor or senate. We are lucky we got what we did out of the first 2 centuries due to the Nutjobs that ruled Rome during those times.

While there is ALOT of evidence both Biblical and non-biblical.. it is a matter of faith. I have faith that it happened as it was written...but thats just me. :smile:

[OldSwabbie]

The thing about the Gospels is that they are 3 that are called "Synoptic Gospels".. Matthew, Mark & Luke. John is not included in these as his is a much different writing style. The word Synoptic means "Seeing" - the 3 saw the same events but from different "Eyes" or "Eye Witness" accounts. Just as three people seeing an event from different angles will see the same thing - but different details on some things.

[Papa Smurf]

The thing about the Gospels is that they are 3 that are called "Synoptic Gospels".. Matthew, Mark & Luke. John is not included in these as his is a much different writing style. The word Synoptic means "Seeing" - the 3 saw the same events but from different "Eyes" or "Eye Witness" accounts. Just as three people seeing an event from different angles will see the same thing - but different details on some things.

Yes, but were they eyes on target?

Nazareth, according to the NT Gospels, is a city located in Galilee, the northern most province of modern day Israel. The author of Luke tells of Nazareth having a synagogue (Luke 4:16), and a crowd who ‘Rose up, and thrust him [Yeshua] out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.’ (Luke 4:29).

Though not a very detailed description of Nazareth, the Gospels do provide valuable archeological information. The authors of both Matthew and Luke identify Nazareth as a city (πόλις: polis) - not a town/village (κώμη: kōmē), or smaller settlement. We further learn from the author of Luke the city was of sufficient size to support a synagogue (συναγωγή: synagōgē). And, it was located on a hillside near an embankment.

The problem with the Gospel authors’ description of Nazareth is that even the modest amount of information they provide doesn’t match the geographical features of the current location, which is claimed to have been built on the remnants of the original city, nor does it describe any other city existing in Galilee during the first century CE.

And more importantly – just this past week archeologist disclosed that they had found the first (only) house in Nazareth that was built during the first century - no city, no town, no village, and no synagugue - one single house, so if, as archeology shows us, Nazareth was in fact a small farming community in the first century wouldn’t that make the crowd wanting to ‘cast him down headlong’ members of his own family?

There is no place like home...

Back to the left over turkey and gravy... :cool:

[Lagnaippe]

I'm just wondering why, if Joseph returned to his hometown, why nobody in his family offered up a couch. Could it be because the girl he was bringing home with him was considered a ho? I mean, Joseph didn't get her pregnant...it was out of wedlock....

[TPD1280]

Of course only Matthew mentions the tax/census thing...none of the others do.

Matthew was a tax collector, so this detail would be important to him.

[Papa Smurf]

Matthew was a tax collector, so this detail would be important to him.

As a tax collector Matthew would have known Judaism was (and still is) a patriarchal society whereby a person's lineage is from the father; yet, he lists several women in the lineage from Abraham to Yeshua (Jesus).

Also, a tax collector would be expected to do simple math - such as add the number of names on a list correctly. Matthew states there are 14 generations from Abraham to David (NT: Matthew 1:17); yet only lists 13 names (NT: Matthew 1:1 - 1:6).

Not so sure I would trust a tax collector that cant count and doesn't know the local laws... :cool:

[ET1/ss nuke]

As a tax collector Matthew would have known Judaism was (and still is) a patriarchal society whereby a person's lineage is from the father; yet, he lists several women in the lineage from Abraham to Yeshua (Jesus).

If you'd bother to go back to the Old Testament and look up who those women were, you'd find that the inclusion of those women in Matthew's lineage is integral to the greater message of the extension of God's grace to the gentiles through the Gospel of Jesus.

Merry Christmas!

[Papa Smurf]

Will stop here before the mods shut down the thread...