Cost of good training

[TonyM]

Last year I had several conversations with Sgt Carl Taylor (USMCR) about doing a USMC Scout/Sniper course here in Canada for a reserve unit. He's come up with a cost, outline and is willing to travel to talk to local HQ about it. Now before everyone jumps on me about how this can't work because of (insert usual bs here), how about some ideas about how a unit CAN get this program initiated. Or how about a way to do it on our own with support from perhaps a local police or RCMP unit? Here's the breakdown in US dollars.

MILITARY SNIPER COURSE
Duration 14 days, Cost: $1,300.00
Duration 28 days, Cost: $2,600.00
Duration 50 days, Cost: $5,000.00 Exact USMC Scout/Sniper School as per the new Quantico POI

The following course is designed to enhance the military snipers overall performance in the field while deployed to the supported unit commander. This will be a high intensity course that will challenge the sniper in every aspect of sniping from marksmanship to intelligence gathering and forward observation. In short, to become the eyes and ears of the supported unit commander.
The purpose of this course is to test the student's knowledge of sniping under a high amount of mental and physical stress in a simulated combat environment.
The following is a brief syllabus of the subjects that will be covered.
· Range safety and handling of weapons
· Marksmanship training
· Stalking / field skills
· Forward observation / call for fire
· Land navigation
· Intelligence gathering
· Observation skills
· concealment exercise
· Mission planning
· Mission employment
· Unknown distance shooting
· Weapons maintenance
· Data book
· Ballistics
· Effects of the weather
· Range estimation
· Keep in memory skills
· Hide construction
· Holds and leads for moving targets
· Night and low light firing
· High angle shooting
· Plan and perform sniper mission
· Qualification course of fire
· Written test
Requirements:
The following are on-site requirements so that Surgical Shooting can provide the very best in sniper training.
1.A supporting unit will be designated to provide the following:
Communications i.e. radios battery handsets, etc., and all other Comm gear vital for any operation over a fourteen-day period.
Admin and logistics i.e. chow, water and ammunition for the students.
Emergency vehicle.
Emergency personnel i.e. medics.
Classroom facility and barracks to house the students (preferably in the same building).
Transportation to and from classroom and range facilities for the sniper students. To include air support if available.
2.Lodging for the Surgical Shooting Instructor Staff.
Lodging will be provided for the Surgical Shooting Instructor Staff at or near the class room facility by the hosting unit.
All meals will be the responsibility of Surgical Shooting.
All travel to and from the training facility will be the responsibility of Surgical Shooting.
3.Instructional costs
All fees for instructional cost will be paid up front within two weeks of said course.
Preferred method of payment will be by either credit card (visa) or bankable check.
Payment will be made out to Surgical Shooting.
Upon request, Surgical Shooting can run the entire 10 week Marine Corps Scout/Sniper Course for State Department sanctioned police and military units worldwide. We have previously run courses in South East Asia, North & South America, the Middle East and Europe. The course runs for 50 training days with a class capacity of 24. During these strenuous 50 days the school covers:

16 hours of Demonstrations
120 hours of field exercises
88.5 hours of lectures
52 hours of live fire practical application
46 hours of live fire performance evaluation
49 hours of practical application
24 hours of tactical exercise with out troops
142 hours of performance exams
6.5 hours of written exams
12 hours of physical training
This course includes instruction in advance marksmanship with the special application scoped rifle. Instructions in field craft include stalking and concealment techniques, range estimation, observation techniques, hide construction, land navigation, Mantracking, field communications, selection and occupation of positions, field sketches, observation log, range card, and patrol log construction and maintenance, terrain model construction, and night / thermal image device usage and anti-detection techniques. Tactical inspection includes detailed mission planning, preparation and conduct, scout sniper employment. Patrolling, and collecting and reporting information.

If done outside of CF support structures I see it this way:
For 24 students you'd be looking at a basic tution cost of about $350.00CDN, plus ammo (600rds Match) of approx $400CDN, instructor / medical support / insurance and range related expenses $200-300 each and say another $100 for contingency. Or about a $1000.00 each. Ideas, comments? And remember, I've head every negative excuse, and been reprimanded for some of them too.

[garett]

Yeah I'd take some time off school for that course............even though I'm now a shit head 2nd Lt.

[towhey]

Hi Tony,

Interesting idea.

Question: Your numbers don't seem to jive -- the prices quoted at the top don't match the $1,000 estimate at the bottom.

Did you change something?

[TonyM]

My numbers are CDN, course prices are US. Using a conversion of 1.55, I'm est $7750 for the tuition
Class size (max) 24/7750=$323
Expenses (est) $200
Ammo $400
contingencey $100
That's $1023, but knowing how these things run, I'd say tack another $200 on. There's a good saying in business "When you finish your financial forecast, double your expenses and half your revenues and see if it still looks good" Very true.
Also, Sgt Taylor has mysteriously aquired a CF sniper pam and all the EO/PO's will be covered.
Do any of you officers know how this stacks up against current CF costs for basic sniper? I believe it's being run at the area level now.

[This message has been edited by TonyM (edited 10-04-2001).]

[Cree Warrior]

Count me in, just give me a time hack, like when you'd want to run it and where?

Sua Sponte

It would be woth finding out if those guys that did ROTO's would get their tuition covered.

[towhey]

Hi TonyM:

OK, I get you. You're looking at $5,000 as the total instructional cost for a 50 day course -- for all participants, right?

Are you sure that's not $5,000 per person? Just asking. We do a lot of corporate training -- and the cost, to be honest, seems too good to be true.

$5,000 / 50 days = $100/day for instruction. Is there more than one instructor for 24 participants? If so, then we're looking at $50, $33, or $25 per instructor per day. That's less than minimum wage.

If this is the case, I don't like to be a "naysayer", but I'd seriously question the quality of instruction that you will receive.

At $5,000 per person for 50 days, you'd be looking at $2,400 per day for instruction -- which seems more reasonable. And, $5,000 per student for 50 days is still the cheapest corporate/specialist course I've ever seen. It's either a great deal, or a too good to be true deal. Hard to say from a distance.

Good luck!

[This message has been edited by towhey (edited 10-04-2001).]

[This message has been edited by towhey (edited 10-04-2001).]

[TonyM]

I believe you're right. It's just too good of a deal. And everyone knows that if it's too good of a deal, somethings not right. I'll find out and report back. Still waiting on a price for the 10 week USMC course. Looks like that one will come in at around $12,000 US (per person?)

[Infanteer]

This could only help with military skills, count me in. Tony, I fired off an e-mail.

[TonyM]

Well it looks like that $5000 US is per student for the USMC course. So figure on at least $8500 CDN per guy (24 guys max) plus daily pay rates if done by the unit. Again I'm wondering, does anyone have any idea on the costs for basic sniper at the area level? Of course you'd have to rename it, as "USMC Scout/Sniper" would go over like a death at a birthday party. One of the Sgts here suggested "Advanced Infantryman's Course". Also does anyone know of any precedent of contracting out training in the forces at the area or brigade level(other than the Air Force)?

[Infanteer]

Ouch, guess I'll have to start collecting bottles....

[Sinister Dave]

Heck, if you guys are a reserve unit, why don't you ask HQ in Ottawa to invite a Marine, Army, or National Guard unit to come up and give a mobile training team course for free? I assume you do have some kind of annual training cycle, no (we had two weeks activation in the summer when I was in the national Guard down here in the states)?

[This message has been edited by Sinister Dave (edited 10-09-2001).]

[towhey]

<<Also does anyone know of any precedent of contracting out training in the forces at the area or brigade level(other than the Air Force)?>>

Actually, now that you mention it: yes.

Believe it or not, my company reviewed a Request for Proposal from a Militia brigade (Calgary or Edmonton, I believe) looking to contract out an entire Recruit Training course. If I recall, their budget wasn't sufficient to make it worthwhile for us to bid.

Check with them to see if they were successful -- and see what lessons learned there were about the process.

Good luck.

[TonyM]

I checked into the USMC MTT's. (does the Guard have Mobile Training Teams?). It's most definitley not free, in fact at the Gov't level it's in the 10's of thousands of dollars. I don't believe they actually exchange cash payments but contra some high level accounts. But thanks for the input, you know what they say: "An infinite number of monkeys typing on an infinite number of typewriters will eventually produce a pulitzer prize novel" or in this case, some actual kick-ass training for a CF reserve unit.

As for the cost, yeah it's up there. In fact it's a down payment on a house. But it would be a once-in-a-lifetime thing, I imagine very few CF personell have ever done, or had the opportunity to do, the USMC Scout/Sniper course.

I'm trying to see how flexible this can be. Can we split it (and the costs) up into blocks? Can some of the lectures/classroom work be done via correspondence? And what about weapons/ranges. If some of it was done in the States, like the unkown distance ranges, weapons and ammo are substanially cheaper. In fact I don't know of any 1500m field firing ranges outside of the area training centers.

Well, gotta keep trying. If anyone has any thoughts, please pipe up.

[Sinister Dave]

Tony, this is EXACTLY the kind of mission US SF units are set up for.

If you provide some training (cold weather, or some kind of Canadian TTP (Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures -- maybe working with the Grizzly or winter ops, etc.) you can have an SF A-team join you for Joint/Combined Exercise Training (a JCET) and it costs you nothing.

You'd have to shove a lot of training into two or three weeks, and the POI would have to be abbreviated, of course, but you get your intro or familiarization course.

This is how SF units go around the world -- it's where the work is.

[TonyM]

Well, Dave, I'm game to give it a go. Are you able to provide some contacts? I've already tried this route with 1st SFG in Lewis and was shot down pretty hard by our guys. My SF contacts were always willing to help, but once the costs started coming out, well that was that

[TonyM]

Some encouraging news about the sniper course. It can be tailored to fit our (reserve type)needs. Some lectures and classes can be made in a distance learning multi-media packages , some will still require the instructor. The ranges (including the live fire arty/FOO phase) may be arranged through the USMCR in Yakima. Weapons can be arranged through AI and Surgical Shooting. I've got a line on match (Black Hills) ammo. Associated costs can be broken up into the training blocks. Maybe, just maybe...

"...slowly, slowly, catchy monkey..."

[PD Shooter]

Originally posted by Sinister Dave:
Tony, this is EXACTLY the kind of mission US SF units are set up for.

Joint training is one thing. Getting an SF unit to come up and run a 3 month school? No way.

[Gary]

Surgical Shooting's Sniper Classes are run only by school trained snipers that are former sniper school instructors and NCOIC's.
www.SurgicalShooting.com (http://www.SurgicalShooting.com)

[TonyM]

I don't want to mislead anyone here. This course (if done) will be through Surgical Shooting. Not US Army SF or USMC MTT's. I've met Mr Taylor and attended his school. If he tells me it's the exact USMC curriculum, it is.