9/11. What gear would have virtually guaranteed survival?

[LawrenceDestefano]

You’re in your office on the 105th story of the Twin Towers immediately after the attacks. The only evacuation route is through the windows on your floor. I was just thinking if a retired SF found themselves in this scenario and had the forethought to prepare - is there any such training and gear they would have received in the military that would have virtually guarantee their survival?

Having such forethought what would be your most logical evacuation plan? What gear would you need? Assuming your gear takes up more floor space than a typical gym or tennis bag, what logical explanation would you have given to your fellow employees to dispel their skepticism and curiosity?

Having absolutely no experience in emergency preparedness, especially one that involves high rise buildings, I would have no way of knowing how ridiculously absurd my question is. I apologize if this post is completely devoid of common sense. If so, plese delete.

If it isn't, I'm gonna want to know in detail how this feat can be accomplished.

[SOTB]

I was just thinking if a retired SF found themselves in this scenario and had the forethought to prepare - is there any such training and gear they would have received in the military that would have virtually guarantee their survival?A retired US Army officer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rescorla) was in this situation and I think his "preparation" was far and away superior to having a base-jumping rig stashed in one of his filing cabinets....

[Blackjack78]

A retired US Army officer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rescorla) was in this situation and I think his "preparation" was far and away superior to having a base-jumping rig stashed in one of his filing cabinets....

A true hero on many fronts. RIP Rick.

[CPTAUSRET]

A true hero on many fronts. RIP Rick.

AMEN!

[LawrenceDestefano]

A retired US Army officer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rescorla) was in this situation and I think his "preparation" was far and away superior to having a base-jumping rig stashed in one of his filing cabinets....

I read your link, Thank you. My most sincere condolences on the loss of one of your own. - Col. Richard C. Rescorla.

I’m sorry my post suggested that Col. Rescorla, who sacrificed his life to guide thousands to safety, should have sought a coward’s way out.

SOTB, this is the second time you have misunderstood one of my postings and I apologize again for my lack of clarity.

When I posted…

You’re in your office on the 105th story of the Twin Towers immediately after the attacks. The only evacuation route is through the windows on your floor.

What I meant to say was...No matter how much preparation Col. Rescorla did there was no way he could carry out his courageous selfless plans because he was trapped alone in his office the 105th story of the Twin Towers, and his only evacuation route is through the windows on that floor.

There was only one life to save.

[LawrenceDestefano]

You’re in your office on the 105th story of the Twin Towers immediately after the attacks. The only evacuation route is through the windows on your floor.

After the attack there were many trapped in this fateful situation. The only choice they had did not end well.

Was just wondering if any planning and preperation exists that would virtually guarantee survival out of this specific circumstance, i.e., "The only evacuation route is through the windows..."

[Husker19D30]

Kobayashi Maru, sometimes you can't win, and what really counts is how you go down swinging and making the best effort.

Oh, and google BASE jumping.

[Sharky]

After the attack there were many trapped in this fateful situation. The only choice they had did not end well.

Was just wondering if any planning and preperation exists that would virtually guarantee survival out of this specific circumstance, i.e., "The only evacuation route is through the windows..."



105 stories up and the window is the only way out? The only thing that's gonna save you is a BASE rig.

Most high rise buildings now have smoke hoods or handheld air bottles. Never had to use on in a fire so cant comment how effective they are but I would rather have one than not.

As for some sort of SOF skill that might get you out of that situation as you describe it, not that I know of.

[LawrenceDestefano]

Thank you Sharky. I’ll check out Base jumping.

In the meantime…

I have no aerial activity experience whatsoever so I haven’t a clue how to fly - but I'm curious...

Suppose I learned strictly through books, instructional videos, and the internet; what the best Base rig is, how to calculate point of impact based on body weight and free-fall from 105 stories, and how many second delay before chute deployment, body position at the jump, heading, heading correction, riser turns, flat turns, tracking, stall point of the canopy, canopy control, risers and toggles, landing, etc., etc.

With that said, suppose I’m working on the 105th floor when the attacks occurred. I have donned my BASE rig that was stashed in one of my filing cabinets and I’m sitting at my blown out window . A colleague of mine who also survived the attack, but has no rig, is standing by another blown out window yards away.

Again, having no aerial activity experience whatsoever, but being book smart on the subject of Base jumping, my question is to those with jump experience and those who feel qualified to answer:

When we jumped did I substantially increase my survivability merely because I had a BASE rig, and if so - percentage wise, by how much?

[Papa Smurf]

After the attack there were many trapped in this fateful situation. The only choice they had did not end well.

Was just wondering if any planning and preperation exists that would virtually guarantee survival out of this specific circumstance, i.e., "The only evacuation route is through the windows..."

There are a number of options that would grant a greater number of survivors but they are not implemented because of cost and probability of use - its the same reason buildings along fault lines are designed to withstand an earthquake more so than those located in a region where earthquakes are far less frequent and severe; same is true of buildings located in areas hit by hurricanes.

The fist and foremost option would be to limit the height of buildings to 10 floors or less which is impractical in cities with a dense population such as NYC.

The second option is to design escape tubes which can be used along the exterior of the building; again impractical due to the height of the buildings and speed at which humans would free fall. Any rupture of the tube renders it inoperable.

The last is to design a building that could withstand the impact of such an explosion - which is virtually impossible. Modern construction materials VS modern explosives - explosives win.

Bottom line - we do the best we can with the materials at hand - hind-site is great for a lot of things but predicting such a disaster whether man made or natural is a crap shoot at best. The fact that out of a possible 50,000 people (had all the offices in both towers been full) the loss of life was less than 3,000 says a lot about the design of the buildings and caliber of the people who performed the rescue operations!

[LawrenceDestefano]

Papa Smurf-

I’m sorry you misunderstood my post, “What gear would have virtually guaranteed survival? “

I wasn’t blaming government/corporate planners for failing to provide gear, equipment, or options (listed in your post).

In contrast, I was addressing the 200 or so jumpers that were trapped on the upper floors of the burning towers. I wanted to know what gear would have virtually guaranteed their survival if they had chosen to take charge of their personal safety.

The fact that out of a possible 50,000 people (had all the offices in both towers been full) the loss of life was less than 3,000 says a lot about the design of the buildings and caliber of the people who performed the rescue operations!

With all due respect...the fact that only 3,000 perished out of 50,000 had little to do with building design or the caliber of the people performing rescue operations.

[The Corporate Guy]

I was addressing the 200 or so jumpers that were trapped on the upper floors of the burning towers. I wanted to know what gear would have virtually guaranteed their survival...

None. There are no guarantees in life.

...if they had chosen to take charge of their personal safety.

If you were trapped above the fire line, you would have made different choices? :rolleyes:

[The Corporate Guy]

With all due respect...the fact that only 3,000 perished out of 50,000 had little to do with building design or the caliber of the people performing rescue operations.

You have stated you have no experience in high rise operations...why come here and make comments about the caliber of people performing rescue operations on that day? :mad: That's a rhetorical question.

[Starlight]

Papa Smurf-

< With all due respect...the fact that only 3,000 perished out of 50,000 had little to do with building design or the caliber of the people performing rescue operations. >



You might want to revise that statement...

[MeatLasagna]

Lawrence, you are an interesting fellow. First, you ask us what would be the best way to move a large stockpile of weapons and ammo, now, you want to know the best way for a single man to survive a terrorist attack... and you are using a full name for your handle. Don't take this the wrong way.. you can see where I'm coming from.

[8Ball]

Lawrence, you are an interesting fellow. First, you ask us what would be the best way to move a large stockpile of weapons and ammo, now, you want to know the best way for a single man to survive a terrorist attack... and you are using a full name for your handle. Don't take this the wrong way.. you can see where I'm coming from.


That has been my thinking from the beginning. But, what do I know...

And, as far as the comment regarding the "the caliber of the people performing rescue operations". Me thinks you might have a case of talkingouturass-itis.
Unless you work for Port Authority, NYPD, FDNY, or the countless other agencies and were there that day; how can you make that claim?
I don't as I wasn't there so I wouldn't DARE to say anything similar. I believe it pisses on the memory of some individuals who walked the walk on that fateful day. At least one of our members is connected in a personal way. Probably more. Like was stated earlier. You might want to explain that comment.
Oh, and one more thing. I think this thread is useless.

[LawrenceDestefano]

The fact that out of a possible 50,000 people (had all the offices in both towers been full) the loss of life was less than 3,000 says a lot about the design of the buildings and caliber of the people who performed the rescue operations!

With all due respect...the fact that only 3,000 perished out of 50,000 had little to do with building design or the caliber of the people performing rescue operations.

You might want to revise that statement...

Yes. Thank you.

The NIST estimated 17,400 people were in the towers at the time of the attacks. The other 32,600 that lived “… had little to do with building design or the caliber of the people performing rescue operations.”

I assumed everyone here would know I was referencing the other 32,600 people when I made the statement. I don’t know what else to say – I’m truly sorry.:(

[Greenhat]

Lawrence,

Stop digging. Read more, post less. Just some advice before you get irritating enough for the black helo to make a trip to your location. In my opinion, you are rapidly approaching that point.

[LawrenceDestefano]

Okay.

[Blackjack78]

1st he wants to bail on his friends w/a chute that he had stashed. Then when he got some heat, and much less heat than those who chose to jump that day, he revised it to be he was alone. Then the folks who got out of the buildings did so w/o any help from rescue workers or ordinary folks acting as rescue workers IE, fellow workers who chose to stay and help and not bail. Many rescue workers died trying to rescue folks that day and many are dying as we speak as a result of their efforts. I'm all for marking the LZ. MY 02 and worth just that.

[Silverbullet]

Done. 1 month vacation to think about it.

[ex]

A retired US Army officer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rescorla) was in this situation and I think his "preparation" was far and away superior to having a base-jumping rig stashed in one of his filing cabinets....
I some how missed out on this incredible story of heroism - thanks for posting the link.


Very well said, Blackjack. I think you're awesome! ;)

[Typhoon]

I some how missed out on this incredible story of heroism - thanks for posting the link...Very well said, Blackjack. I think you're awesome!

There was a very well written article about Rick Rescorla in one of the national magazines a few years back. I cannot for the life of me remember which one, maybe Rolling Stone or Vanity Fair... He is indeed one of the big heroes of 9-11, not only for his actions on that day but also for his foresight after the 1993 attack.

Ditto for you Blackjack. I think you are awesome too.

[The Corporate Guy]

There was a very well written article about Rick Rescorla in one of the national magazines a few years back. I cannot for the life of me remember which one, maybe Rolling Stone or Vanity Fair... He is indeed one of the big heroes of 9-11, not only for his actions on that day but also for his foresight after the 1993 attack.

There was a good documentaray as well...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Predicted_9/11

Ricks's contributions did not end with his death. His example is still cited in high rise training today.

[2ndrgrbn82-85]

I knew Rick Rescorla and worked for Morgan Stanley on 9/11. No doubt Rick was a great guy. It is a photo of Rick fixing his bayonet in the battle at Ia Drang Valley on the book cover of "We were soldiers once and young" . As far a 9/11 goes let's just say things get somehow twisted in the interest of making a 'feel good' story.