Para-Commandos

[norm]

On Tom's site, in the International SOF units' section on Belgium, it says the the Belgian Army's 1st Para-Commando Regiment (like Army's 75th Ranger Regiment) is supposed to have harder training than the Rangers. Would anyone like to comment on this? Thanks.

[Kristof]

That remark originally came from me. And I in turn have heard it from a LRRP member here in Belgium, who was a para NCO before he joined the LRRP. The LRRP is the elite of the Belgian Army. He has worked with Rangers, and to him their training looked more like that of what we call 'Stormfuseliers', a light infantry "shock troop" unit. The para's go through things like : middle of the night, raining, temperature around 4 celsius, sarge says : "Okay everybody, we are going to pack up and move the camp." Usually this means that they have to pack everything neatly in their backpack, move a couple of meters, and set up their tent all over again, then have to sleep in a wet sleeping bag the rest of the night, with their rifle in their sleeping bag. They go through 6 months of this, combined of course, with heavy PT and things like mountaineering and small unit tactics. If you want to become an NCO, you have to do an extra year of pt'ing, studying and more pt'ing. Sometimes not eating and sleeping for 4 or more days.
Para's are very self reliant, able to attack, control and defend any given target or area. They seem to be able to execute their task with very limited means, compared to US forces. They also see more action than the Rangers, as they go to Africa as soon as something is brewing. They are always the first choice to go for our army, the US can choose from Marines, over 82nd and 101st, over Rangers, to Special Forces, Navy SEALs and Recon Marines.

There is no disrespect for the Rangers here whatsoever, but the para's have evolved from the SAS commando's during WW II, and it still shows in their way of being more of a self relying commando, than a para shock trooper.

We are of course always open to any debate http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Kristof



[This message has been edited by Kristof (edited 04-01-2000).]

[enderr]

anyone know where i can get a pic of the commandos burning their UN berets

[Ted]

I don't know how much harder the Para training is than Ranger training, if at all. It obviously can't a whole lot tougher, we (Rangers) have had one of our cooks pass the Belgian Paracommando course.

True story, I don't know his first name, but his last name was Schuster. He went with several other Rangers and they all passed and wore the badge with pride.

As for the para's seeing more action than the Rangers, I wouldn't know...

[This message has been edited by Ted (edited 12-05-2000).]

[Tracy]

Having worked with the Belgium Commandos and the Rangers; I'll take the Rangers any day.

I worked alongside the Belgians in Somalia; and they have a 'little' problem of flying off the handle when they suspect someone of not agreeing with their view. They get angry enough to storm into classified areas to try and shoot whomever they disagree with.

This isn't legend or myth, one of the Belgian (Moritz?)company commanders operating in Kismayo, Somalia, came up to Mogadishu and put a bounty on my head because he thought I accused him of warcrimes and attrocities against Somali citizens. He and three other NCOs burst into the US Command Post with weapons drawn intending to take me into 'custody' for interrogation at the Belgian Compound.

A standoff ensued between the Belgians and Americans. Five minutes later the Belgians retreated by threatening to kill ANYONE who discussed the incident.

The Belgians pulled out of Somalia completely after this incident because Lt Gen Bir (UNOSOM Commander) started asking questions of the UN Zone representative in Kismayo and wondered why the Belgians tried to attack an ally in the Embassy Compound.

What was my role in this whole affair? A group of Somali elders and chiefs complained of the treatment they received from the Belgians. I took the report and turned it in to HQ; as a soldier is supposed to do.

As far as I'm concerned, the Belgian Commandos are a bunch of thugs who lack any serious adult supervision.

Whereas the Rangers are a proven, disciplined and extremely tough fighting force that have seen more combat in the last 25 years than the Belgian Commandos in the last 50.

I really don't care how tough the training is; because it's wasted on the wrong kind of people. Every single NATO soldier I ever talked to say the same thing: The Belgians view themselves as to superior to everyone else on the planet; no one is good enough to meet their standards.

[jinX]

Whoah. You go, Tracy http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

[Kristof]

Finally this thread is cooking !

Tracy, I have read your post with great interest and if it is like you say ( will ask around ), then it's very incorrect behaviour on the part of our troops. I never said they were a politically correct bunch of guys.
It is true that there have been some problems with the discipline among the para's. Recruitment procedures have changed to weed out the mentally unstable to prevent this, but it will never completely disappear. I have a friend who was a para Lt in Somalia, but he doesn't tell a whole lot about it.
The para's indeed have high self esteem, like any proud infantry unit, and a mentality that encourages bravery over discipline. This combined with the fact that a lot of guys that enlist to become a para have quite some energy to burn, to put things eufemistically, sometimes result in something which you described. I haven't checked yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if something like this happened. But maybe the problem stemmed from a miscommunication, and the para's are known to protect each other to the death, again like any proud infantry unit.
I don't know how many encounters you have had with our para's but there is more to them than busting into offices with weapons drawn. In total I know ten of them, and while a couple of them have a rough outer layer, they are all guys with a heart of gold. You should see how they help out in disasters like floodings and heavy storms, or help to build homes for refugees. They are called upon a lot, and are the pride of our army.

enderr : the burning of the berets came at a time in which the para's could not protect their mates like they had wanted to. They asked for APC's to go along to Ruanda but didn't get them, blame the politicians. One APC to aid and protect the 10 para's and it would have never gotten into the news.
Even without the APC, they were all ready to go, but to avoid an escalation the commanders said :"No". Frustration was at its peak, they had come to aid the population but had no clear ROE, they had their comrades taken prisoner and could not come to their rescue, and in the end they asked themselves what this whole UN mission was good for anyway, so they burned the berets. The para's had a good view on the whole Ruanda conflict and if given the means and the freedom to operate, Ruanda would have been a very successful UN operation, with glory for all parties involved. They should have never sent the para's since they weren't going to use them anyway.

Kristof out.

[Daredevil]

Tracy, dude! You've been involved in everything man.

Hey Kristof, no offense man, but Belgium in Africa? That ain't a great track record. Maybe Belgian Commandos only have a heart of gold on home missions.

[DFC5343]

Like waffle cookin...

[Kristof]

I don't want to judge too much on the greatness of track records. I wasn't there.

There is however a former para NCO who has never heard of the incident which Tracy described. Again, I'm not judging anybody, but this guy sure is connected within the para's and he doesn't believe a thing like this could have been kept a secret. However, in case it did happen like that he thinks it would be a disgrace to the whole unit. Pointing rifles at allies, in that type of situation, to him is unthinkable. He was actually quite mad at the idea that either somebody would lie about this or that something like this had indeed happened. Mind you, I am NOT implying that Tracy is lying, I'm merely communicating opinions.

And then again, the fact that Tracy might have had one serious fucked up conflict with our para's doesn't say a whole lot about the unit in general. There are bad apples everywhere.

Ted : do you know how long the course was the Rangers went through? 'Cause you see, you have a 4 week commando course, but before recruits are admitted to that course they have 4 month indoctrinary course, which is the toughest of the 6 months of training. ( Last month is jump school ).

Again, there are several other people I still have to contact to verify the incident, but I thought I'd already respond.

Kristof out.

[Razor]

Ah-ha, we've found the essential difference between these two units, as stated by Kristof: "...a mentality that encourages bravery over discipline." Guess that 'bout sums it up.

[Mike]

The Para-commando were in combat in the Congo along with the French Foreign Legion rescuing thousands of civilians who were being massacred in the 1960s. And the legionaires complained the Belgiums did not do a good job.

[Ted]

I don't know which course they went to. If I had to guess, it would be the 4 week one, I wouldn't think that one would send troops away for 6 months unless it was some really special training (like 300F1) http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif Schuster went, not because he was the toughest cook, but because he could speak German and other languages.

[Kristof]

Mike, I was refraining from judging on operations 'cause I wasn't there and neither were you I take it. All I was stating was the difference in training. Someone told me that para's have a somewhat harder training course than Rangers.
Also, I take it you can be assigned to a Ranger Batallion without having to go through Ranger school, right? Well, a para can never be assigned to any para unit without having gone through the 6 month course.
These differences in training actually do not matter. I'm perfectly willing to accept that Ranger School is as hard as the Para-Commando course, this is something that is very hard to measure anyway. I was just stating what someone had told me. I don't think there are a lot of belgians on these forums so it's just me having to make some noise to get something going about the para's, get them to be noticed a bit, 'cause they do have proud legacy. So you could say that I was trying to provoke a reaction. The only sensible thing I have heard so far is Tracy's story. He looks at them in a certain way because of something he experienced. I'm sorry that that way is a negative one, so now I'm trying to find out what was what. Maybe he just ran into the worst para's around that have been booted from the force since? Or maybe they weren't actual para's? Who knows?

So the discussion has been shifted somewhat to the incident Tracy talked about. If it is completely and utterly true, just like he wrote it, than it would cause quite a stir around these parts.

Kristof out.

[Kristof]

Ted : makes sense. Thanks for the reply.

Kristof

[sergdoc]

I was following this discussion because a email friend of mine contacted me about this story.
I used to be in the Belgian Airborne Brigade for some years and in the end was active in the GVP-ESR-LRRP. I was active in the former yougolavia but know a lot of people who went to the States. They just tell the opposite, that the GI's were the ones fleeing from combat and doing a very bad job.
However i will not join this discussion. Being a SF soldier is a choise and people belonging to them are not competetive in we are better the the rest. They have respect for eachother because they know how dangereous the job is and they also know that one day only other SF will come to their rescue if needed.
It is a stupid discussion of trying to find out with unit "is the best". We all have our specialities.
One thing is sure : The Belgian SF are very well trained, have to follow years of training and from a personal point : when we were on excercise with foreign units, they were always very happy to see us.

[Kristof]

<blurb>



[This message has been edited by Kristof (edited 12-06-2000).]

[Daredevil]

Kristof, this is something I was dinged on before. Young guys will be in the Ranger Regiment without having gone to Ranger school, this is because the Regiment and the School are two different concepts. For an enlisted guy to go into the Ranger Regiment he has to pass RIP (Ranger Indoctrination Process) which, from accounts I've heard, is extremely arduous to go through. Once they've passed that, they can wear the Regiment scroll and they can go to the Regiment and eventually go to the school.

The school is more of a small unit tactics and leadership course, it is also extremely demanding but graduating from Ranger school means you are Ranger qualified not necessarily going into the Regiment to be a Ranger. I know several officers who have graduated from Ranger school who never served a day in an actual Ranger Regiment. They went to the school to further develop their leadership skills and bring them to the more conventional Army units to improve the Army as a whole. Graduating from the school means you can wear the tab.

That's why Rangers say "The Tab is a school, the Scroll is a way of life."

It's a slight difference which is very easy for outsiders like ourselves to get confused.

[Kristof]

Daredevil : I was aware of the difference between scroll and tab, but I did not know about RIP. I heard the term, but I never quite understood where to place it. I'll look into it some, thanks.

The situation is somewhat the same over here, there is also indoctrination ( 4 months ) and school ( 1 month ) but future para's always have to go through in one stretch.

Also a lot of non-para soldiers in the Belgian army go through the one month commando course. There is also a three week version which can be followed by anybody in the army, not only by combat unit members.

Kristof out.

[enderr]

...sorry, but you didn't answer my question. I know why they torched their berets[due to a certain cdn. general], but what i'm looking for is a picture of it....And this debate of Rangers vs. Para-Cdo..They're two different units with different ethos, the armies are different, as well as the recruits, and I won't even bother going into social values... The end product is essentially the same: two switched on combat proven units, and that's all that really matters

[cvd]

Tracy ,
had the paras been in on the
task force ranger mission ,
your rangers would not have
gotten their asses kicked in such a way by a bunch of armed losers.
We ,thanks to our aggressiveness
would have vaporized the opposition.
But instead your commanders decided to send in a green bunch of fng rangers.
You lost.
Maybe that is the reason you are so pissed at us;couse you lost,again;
I respect the Rangers a lot,but dont
threat us like shit, we are soldiers just like you;...
only better.

[Daredevil]

Excuse me, CVD, but hasn't Belgium historically been relegated to being Germany's welcoming mat into France?

[attila]

Cvd how did we lose?

[This message has been edited by attila (edited 01-05-2001).]

[cvd]

You didn't get Aideed.

By the way,I have no problems with the US
military,Ithink they're damn good.
I just got p..... off by Tracy's fake story.
The situation he/she described has never happened.I personally know a lot of paras who
were there and none of them recalls such incident.
Some attrocities were comitted by paras ,
but allways against somalis,not friendly forces.The troops responsible for this had to face trial;
Even here in Belgium people think of them as knuckledraggers,thugs,etc... ,but that is
mostly thanks to the press.
Pretty much the same thing that happened to US forces during Vietnam.
They're all soldiers , Belgians as well as Americans.
All have to be respected for the ,usually,
shitty jobs they have to do .
We also lost a lot of good troops on foreign missions,but here no one cares less.
When some of those troops makes a mistake everybody screams murder.
I don't get it.

[DFC5343]

cvd...remember were you are...its all bullshit! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

[JStarz]

Well...I'm not Belgian, I'm not American...I think everybody on this board is too old for the "who's better" debate. Tracy, from reading your posts I have great respect for your experience/knowledge of SpecOps, but I must say that this gun-toting, threatening,almost drunken-behavin' Belgian Paras story sounds a little...well you know...too big to have gone un-noticed in press or something. Belgian Para are known for their "rude" manners but they are also known to be some of the FRY civilian populations'"favorite" peacekeepers for their kindness and commitment. As for Belgium being the German's open door to France, I don't think they invited the Germans over, like "hey, why don't you guys have a beer with us, then you could jump the backyard's fence and go invade France"...Belgium refused to take part in the Maginot line's works in part because they didn't wanted to tip off the Germans and make things worse...and also because some Belgian COS had realized it was a crappy idea, maybe... US Rangers are some of the best shock troops on this planet, so does the belgian Commandos. If you read french, there is a good report on them in a recent edition of RAIDS, a military magazine I strongly recommend. As for Mogadishu, it's not the involved troops'valor that made a difference, it's the overall planning that went wrong. And even if it wasn't exactly a victory, Rangers did a very good job in getting their asses out with minimal support.And if they didn't get Aidid, at least they caught his "lieutenants".
No need to flame on this topic, everybody

------------------
The more you sweat in peacetime, the less you bleed in combat

[Tracy]

CVD:

I submitted a LEGAL document to the UN Commander concerning the incident in Somalia.

I was in the US CP when the Belgians came in and made their threat. So were 7-8 other Americans and Canadians.

In other words, I made sworn statements that I will stand by in court. If the Belgian Government wants to investigate or prosecute me, I'm not going anywhere. Have your Embassy contact me.

I gave you the facts; as well as a large dose of my opinion. It's your call.

[cvd]

well, I must admit I overreacted and I am sorry about it.Iappologise.
If the story is true those responsible must be held accountable for their actions.They
are a disgrace to their unit and give our forces a bad name.In international ops forces should work together not fight each other.
Take care ,

cvd


I submitted a LEGAL document to the UN Commander concerning the incident in Somalia.

I was in the US CP when the Belgians came in and made their threat. So were 7-8 other Americans and Canadians.

In other words, I made sworn statements that I will stand by in court. If the Belgian Government wants to investigate or prosecute me, I'm not going anywhere. Have your Embassy contact me.

I gave you the facts; as well as a large dose of my opinion. It's your call.[/B][/QUOTE]

[Tracy]

Originally posted by cvd:
well, I must admit I overreacted and I am sorry about it.I appologise.
If the story is true those responsible must be held accountable for their actions.They
are a disgrace to their unit and give our forces a bad name. In international ops forces should work together not fight each other...


If it was my unit and country, I would have acted the same way. I don't think you have to appologize for being proud of your military heritage. It happens sometimes, and it sounds as though the problem was solved at your end long ago.

Check Six,