7.3 earthquaque in Haiti.

[sigma1]

Freaking scary.
I was in a bldg that almost fell.
Port au Prince is really bad and will need search and rescue crews.
News of waters rising in the bay.
Hotel Montana is hit bad

Sigma 1

[Titleist]

Freaking scary.
I was in a bldg that almost fell.
Port au Prince is really bad and will need search and rescue crews.
News of waters rising in the bay.
Hotel Montana is hit bad

Sigma 1

Stay safe man. I've been following it as closely as you can from FL. Read that it was the biggest in that area in history.

[BadMuther]

Freaking scary.
I was in a bldg that almost fell.
Port au Prince is really bad and will need search and rescue crews.
News of waters rising in the bay.
Hotel Montana is hit bad

Sigma 1

Hey brother, glad you are okay. Check your yahoo account.

Jim

[0699]

Glad to hear you're okay. Stay safe.

[PanaVet]

Glad your ok... at least you still have internet. Sad news for a sad country....

Spent 2yrs there off and on. Post some photos if you can.

[FinsUp]

Glad to hear you are ok. Keep us updated.

[stllearnin]

Glad to hear you're safe.

My great aunt runs a convent and orphanage in Port-Au-Prince. My folks haven't heard anything from her, and her sister, who lives stateside is kinda freaking out. Prayers & good thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[random]

Glad to hear you're okay.

Prayers for your aunt, stllearnin. Hope you guys manage to contact her soon.

[SOTB]

Hotel Montana is hit bad....Damn. I liked that hotel.

Good to see you are OK. When I saw the published magnitude, I figured there would be some serious reports of damage....

[RGR.Montcalm]

Glad you're OK.

Looks like there will have to be massive rebuilding after the clean up.

The pictures on FOX news this morning were unbelieveable..

[KidA]

Looks like there will have to be massive rebuilding after the clean up.


I doubt that shithole can ever be cleaned up.

[SOTB]

I doubt that shithole can ever be cleaned up.Not that it will make one bit of difference, but I don't want my tax dollars going there to try....

[Blackjack78]

Freaking scary.
I was in a bldg that almost fell.
Port au Prince is really bad and will need search and rescue crews.
News of waters rising in the bay.
Hotel Montana is hit bad

Sigma 1

Bro, stay safe. I have a co-worker whose mother in law is there, no comms. Any chance of trying to make comms?

[KidA]

Not that it will make one bit of difference, but I don't want my tax dollars going there to try....

Mine either. All the non-profits and charities and volunteers who wish can go there.

The only tax dollars I want spent are those for the Coast Guard ensuring mass migration to our shores doesn't happen.

[SOTB]

The only tax dollars I want spent are those for the Coast Guard ensuring mass migration to our shores doesn't happen.+ a gazillion....

[Horned Toad]

The only tax dollars I want spent are those for the Coast Guard ensuring mass migration to our shores doesn't happen.

Say hello to protected status and special visa waivers for those from the Haitian Eartquake Zone!

[KidA]

On a serious note I'm hoping everyone we know is safe and well and, well, if they aren't that they died quickly and painlessly.

On another serious note I think Haiti would benefit from a huge purge of about 75% of its population. The place has too many damned people. And if the corrupt politicians were amongst that 50% then all the better.

[SN]

Not that it will make one bit of difference, but I don't want my tax dollars going there to try....

Agree with you and KidA.

[P38]

On another serious note I think Haiti would benefit from a huge purge of about 75% of its population. The place has too many damned people. And if the corrupt politicians were amongst that 50% then all the better.

Although not 75%, after looking at the initial pictures I think that the scale of death is going to be far higher than anyone dares to estimate right now. In terms of death, I'm not sure what natural disaster is considered to have been the worst in the history of the Western Hemisphere, but I suspect this may top it. Also as you noted, I suspect that the people in the biggest collapsed structures would have been those politicians, care givers, medical personnel, and other more educated members of Haitian society. This is really going to hit them hard.

I also predict that all of that lumber in those collapsed buildings is going to be converted into a massive boat building campaign and there is going to be a huge exodus toward Florida.

[chompy]

You can Text "haiti" to 90999 on your phone to automatically send a $10 donation to the red cross. It will show up on your phone bill. Its really easy. Stay safe brothers...

[Tracy]

Consider this:

Right now, "thousands" are dead. Out of 2 million inhabitants in PAP. That's a very small percentage of the city population. It doesn't even come to 1% until there are more than 20,000 KIA/WIA.

Second, once we get eyes on the ground look where the devastation took place. I'll bet you it's localized to areas where there are no construction standards and/or construction material was misused. Soil profiles probably had a role in the destruction as well. Earthquakes like this routinely strike California with a lot less damage and casualties.

Third, like it not, the US is going to put money into Haiti; and should do so. Why? Hezbollah actively recruits and solicits money from the Caribbean region. We really don't need their ilk moving freely and pretending to help. Their propaganda machine is a lot more effective than ours.

How we put money into the area is the key: training in constructing affordable housing/businesses that's more earthquake resistant. Let them decide how much enforcement they want on building codes.

[BadMuther]

I go to Haiti usually about once a year with the hope for haiti foundation.

http://www.hopeforhaitifoundation.com/

We have been setting up free medical clinics for a number of years now and have built and funded a school and a pharmacy with 2 fulltime haitian nurses. It's not about throwing money at a problem, it's about empowering people and haitians helping haitians. 2 of our team are preparing to go down and assess the damage and see what (if anything) our foundation can do to assist.

My heart goes out to people anywhere that don't have access to clean water, food, or medical care. Moreso in disaster situation.

Disaster situations trascends all political divisions and is usually the one area the world can agree upon to help one another out in.

There are a lot of things that President Obama spends our tax money on, and truth be told, the numbers and what it's for makes me ill.

This is one thing where I *hope* they spend our tax money, and a lot of it.

I am a bib proponent of non-profit's in this sort of situation, but I sincerely hope the President sends the proper resources to help out.

[BadMuther]

Tracy, I'm guessing the numbers are low right now because no one has been able to accurately assess the situation. You know how it is there. Without emergency services in normal times, and now no electricity, I can't imagine what a mess that place is.

[Tracy]

...It's not about throwing money at a problem, it's about empowering people and haitians helping haitians...

...I am a big proponent of non-profit's in this sort of situation, but I sincerely hope the President sends the proper resources to help out.

Bingo. Very well stated.

This a Civil Affairs mission.

[SOTB]

I really like the work our govt has done in Haiti. Yes, that is a sarcastic comment.

Sometime ago I posted a comment about my standing next to a food line in the hinterland of the central plateau of Haiti, and the Haitian that was working with me looking disgustedly at the people in line to receive their tins of US-marked rice and oil and etc. He told me that thanks to this "help", the people of the area no longer bothered to even try and grow food. Why should they? The US was gonna give it to them if they would just stand in the line. And now the area had over two years since people had attempted to grow food there, and he was wondering how much longer a timeline would be necessary until people simply forgot how, until the logistics system for supporting crops was no longer in existence, etc. He commented a whole lot more, but that was the central point.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of our CA programs. Maybe they are fucked from the onset due to politicians changing the mission. Maybe the CA people that have dedicated their lives to this field should be left to decide how to implement programs. Maybe the whole concept is fucked and has no merit. I dunno. I just know that I could give a shit less about sending money to Haiti to help them rebuild....

[RGR.Montcalm]

If there is a mass exodus by raft/boat, then i see Guantanamo getting some use out of the currently idle detention camps...

[Papa Smurf]

If there is a mass exodus by raft/boat, then i see Guantanamo getting some use out of the currently idle detention camps...

Along the same line - the wire service is now reporting that the main prison buildings collapsed and as a result a number of inmates are now free.

This just keeps getting worse. :frown:

[eyezweat]

If there is a mass exodus by raft/boat, then i see Guantanamo getting some use out of the currently idle detention camps...


No. Maybe the current admin will fly them all 1st Class to NY, put them up in Bernie Madoff's old digs, until their INS interviews come up. Then give 'em a topjob at GM or Chrysler.
Just so "closing Gitmo" will be a success.

[SOTB]

This just keeps getting worse....See, this is why I don't believe in faith, karma, or deities -- if they existed, the prison would have killed all the prisoners....:smile:

[J2S]

Along the same line - the wire service is now reporting that the main prison buildings collapsed and as a result a number of inmates are now free.

This just keeps getting worse. :frown:

Well, I am sure they will be of the first to arrive in Florida. Lovely. :eek:

[Papa Smurf]

See, this is why I don't believe in faith, karma, or deities -- if they existed, the prison would have killed all the prisoners....:smile:

True, but that doesn't stop the televangelist POS population from milking it for all its worth. Now will come the cons / frauds / and scams all claiming to be doing good during this trying time for humanity... blah blah blah...

Oh, and lest we forget the POS preachers who will claim this is God's wrath for being a heathen den for prostitution and AIDS...

If shit were snow the weather service would be calling for a tropical blizzard... :biggrin:

[Ole crusty bastard]

I go to Haiti usually about once a year with the hope for haiti foundation.

http://www.hopeforhaitifoundation.com/


My heart goes out to people anywhere that don't have access to clean water, food, or medical care. Moreso in disaster situation.



I feel the same way about these folks and thank you for your good works.

[BadMuther]

Thanks OCB. :)

[JDAM]

Matt Damon is there right now providing relief, donating money out of his own pocket.

Good on him.

[HighDragLowSpeed]

See, this is why I don't believe in faith, karma, or deities -- if they existed, the prison would have killed all the prisoners....:smile:

what if only the innocent ones went free :rolleyes:

[RAT]

There is a group from Houston that I am trying to check on... Does anyone have any eyes on the ground now?

RO!!!

[TC Strat]

Originally Posted by SOTB
See, this is why I don't believe in faith, karma, or deities -- if they existed, the prison would have killed all the prisoners....

I always thought we (people of SOCNET) were "Karma."

aloha

[heavyguns1/1]

what if only the innocent ones went free :rolleyes:

They're all innocent.
Stay safe brothers

[RGR.Montcalm]

I guess the zombies, lupes garou, and voodoo practioners will be well fed...:rolleyes:

In all seriousness, I see this as a 'all hands effort' on the part of SOUTHCOM for the very same reason posted about Hezbollah and their ilk...

I could easily see a hospital ship and/or an aircraft carrier parked off shore to provide medical support...

[Metalchica]

I could easily see a hospital ship and/or an aircraft carrier parked off shore to provide medical support...

USNS Comfort is en route.

[Greenhat]

USNS Comfort is en route.

And an Aircraft Carrier as well.

[Papa Smurf]

AP reporting that the top United Nations Envoy was killed in the quake...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34843439/ns/world_news-haiti_earthquake/

[stllearnin]

Heard from my great aunt finally through some round-about channels. She's fine, the convent and orphanage are fine, and they sustained only minor damage to the chapel. They are right in the middle of Port-Au-Prince, so this is good news. Now they are just preparing to ride the ensuing shenanigans out.

Thanks for the thoughts and prayers, but we need to keep them up for the rest of the people. This is hard for my family to watch since my dad's side is from there (they're political refuges from when Papa Doc took over... long story). This earth quake is really just the icing on the cake for a very shitty and sad situation there.

[JDAM]

The chief of the U.N.'s Haiti mission was among those confirmed killed in Tuesday's quake, Haitian President Rene Preval said Wednesday, while more than 100 other U.N. staffers were missing in the rubble of the collapsed U.N. headquarters.

Nearly 40 other U.N. staff are also unaccounted for in other damaged buildings.
Wow...

RIP

Prayers out for the missing and wounded.

This earth quake is really just the icing on the cake for a very shitty and sad situation there.

Very sad indeed.

[Forestboy]

22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit is headed that way also.

[Dirtpuppy]

My old unit is heading as well. I miss the o'dark thirty phone calls with wheels up in less than 8 hours... so they said. Be safe all.

[MeatLasagna]

Freaking scary.
I was in a bldg that almost fell.
Port au Prince is really bad and will need search and rescue crews.
News of waters rising in the bay.
Hotel Montana is hit bad

Sigma 1

I sent you an email.
Your PM box is full.

[Abu Khalil]

Any word on what support Hugo Chavez (etc.), is sending? Would fit into Hemispheric Role aspirations.

[PanaVet]

IMO... overall...this natural disaster will eclipse the Tsunami of Dec 04.

[ET1/ss nuke]

Any word on what support Hugo Chavez (etc.), is sending? Would fit into Hemispheric Role aspirations.

No, but I saw a picture on the Boston Globe site that was captioned to say that it was Venezuelan relief personnel unloading supplies from a plane.

The Cubans have some field hospitals in Cuba, and I've heard that they use them for training their doctors before unleashing them on real patients, sort of like how the military trains doctors on us before releasing them to work on civilians.

[Tracy]

IMO... overall...this natural disaster will eclipse the Tsunami of Dec 04.

Too soon to tell. There were over 250K dead in Banda Aceh alone.

[Big Money]

It saddens me to see this. I am not a sympathetic person, but having spent the latter portion of my career mostly in the Big Stinky, it feels a little bit like my home town. This will have serious, long-lasting repercussions. If we have any anarchists lurking around here- I think you've got your wish, you just might have to learn a little Creole.

Sigma1: Glad you made out okay. Do you have any information regarding the American-run Baptist Haiti Mission south of PAP in Kenscoff?

[Jungle]

Looks like I might be heading there in the next couple of days...

If I do, I'll try to post updates when I get connectivity.

[PanaVet]

Too soon to tell. There were over 250K dead in Banda Aceh alone.

... judging the impact by the number of deaths alone is not what I meant.

[BadMuther]

Looks like I might be heading there in the next couple of days...

If I do, I'll try to post updates when I get connectivity.

Same here, not positive yet, but I hope I get the chance.

[MeatLasagna]

Anyone have a contact for work/volunteering for rescue efforts? I'm up for it.

[RGR.Montcalm]

Wouldn't be surprised if they sent the SeaBees from Gulfport there-

evidently rescue work is severely hampered by a lack of heavy equipment.

[Hawk14]

82nd Airborne is on their way as well..http://www.*********.com/news/2010/01/ap_army_bragg_haiti_011410/ From what I got from the article about 900 soldiers.

[DEVSAW]

Man, I've spent some time there. 1996? and 2006. Port Au Prince is a mess even without a quake. Looks like a bad deal, for sure. Nobody likes to see people lost and dying under tons of rubble.

[JD Bobcat]

Yet another reason to keep Gitmo open .. humanitarian relief ..

Red cross always needs money as well ...

[MakoZeroSix]

WTF did they bring Al Roker there for? So he can talk about how balmy the weather over the wreckage is?

He keeps raving about "Air Force Special Forces" providing relief because a few JTAC or CCTs are controlling the aircraft coming into the airport. He actually uttered the phrase "Hit it and quit it" a few minutes ago, referring to the length of the upcoming operation. :rolleyes:

[GPC]

Wouldn't be surprised if they sent the SeaBees from Gulfport there-

evidently rescue work is severely hampered by a lack of heavy equipment.

The Air Dets train for diaster recovery.SeaBees would be the best to send in to clear the roads and runways.

[Tracy]

WTF did they bring Al Roker there for? So he can talk about how balmy the weather over the wreckage is?

He keeps raving about "Air Force Special Forces" providing relief because a few JTAC or CCTs are controlling the aircraft coming into the airport. He actually uttered the phrase "Hit it and quit it" a few minutes ago, referring to the length of the upcoming operation. :rolleyes:

Weather reporting will be freaking critical in the region. Everybody is living on ground that is partially or fully de-stabilized. Typically, any 'stable' slope over 45 degrees is prone to landslide activity. Add in earthquakes and precipitation and the slop value can go as low as 20-25 degrees. So forecasting and modeling will be very important.

Another thing weather people do is provide ephemeral data and "thermal cross-over" information. If you use thermal infrared systems, something you have be cognizant of is when you lose contrast between two objects in your thermal imaging systems:

Thermal Crossover Definition: (DoD) The natural phenomenon that normally occurs twice daily when temperature conditions are such that there is a loss of contrast between two adjacent objects on infrared imagery.

Weather people provide that data. The weather predictions also drive collection of aerial imagery.

Al Roker is playing to a crowd for ratings. That's their business; but he could pull it out of fire for credibility if he focused on the above items.

Right now, Haiti is under a time constraint: They have until this April to prepare for the Hurricane Season. Everyone down there needs to be focused tightly on that. One Cat-1 or Cat-2 will wipe out the rebuilding if they're not careful.

[Polypro]

Pat Robertson said God did it because the entire country made a pact with the devil to be free from the French. Sadly, there are idiots that believe that crap.

P

[SN]

WTF did they bring Al Roker there for? So he can talk about how balmy the weather over the wreckage is?

He keeps raving about "Air Force Special Forces" providing relief because a few JTAC or CCTs are controlling the aircraft coming into the airport. He actually uttered the phrase "Hit it and quit it" a few minutes ago, referring to the length of the upcoming operation. :rolleyes:

That AFSOC package isrunning the airfield;the airfield is the lifeline for the relief effort.

BTW-JTAC is a qualification and CCT is a career field.

[SOTB]

....Sadly, there are idiots that believe that crap....Yes there are. And sadly -- VERY sadly -- some are found in the US.

I consider Pat Robberson (not a misspelling) to be no more intellectually advanced than the Sunni who rode with me and a fmr 3d Grp guy to Khandahar one day and told us the earthquake in Pakistan was punishment from his deity.

Fucking idiots....

[stllearnin]

Just got another update about my great-aunt who runs a school for orphans and lives in a convent. Previously, I had said that she was fine and there was little damage to the convent. Apparently, that's not true. The convent was destroyed, and the mother superior died. My great-aunt, who suffered a stroke last year, is okay (we think), and she along with a couple of the older nuns were moved to a hospital for safe-keeping.

Again, thought and prayers are appreciated. The school she ran was making a difference in the lives of the kids that they helped. Several of them went on to go to school in the states and live productive lives when they had no chance otherwise. :(

[smoked]

Fucking idiots....

DITTO...Fucking DITTO.

[RGR.Montcalm]

The Air Dets train for diaster recovery.SeaBees would be the best to send in to clear the roads and runways.

We had the SeaBees from Gulfport come into Honduras in the aftermath of Hurricane Mitch. Their heavy equipment coupled with their intermodal deployability made them a great asset.

They can deploy as easily by plane as by ship.

Their equipment can be ferried in on a LST 2000 faster than it can be flown in by the USAF and the USAF Red Horse teams can.

[smp52]

Just got another update about my great-aunt who runs a school for orphans and lives in a convent. Previously, I had said that she was fine and there was little damage to the convent. Apparently, that's not true. The convent was destroyed, and the mother superior died. My great-aunt, who suffered a stroke last year, is okay (we think), and she along with a couple of the older nuns were moved to a hospital for safe-keeping.

Again, thought and prayers are appreciated. The school she ran was making a difference in the lives of the kids that they helped. Several of them went on to go to school in the states and live productive lives when they had no chance otherwise. :(

Hopefully those who graduated from the school to do bigger and better things return the good deeds to those in need now, particularly the school that gave them the tools to succeed.

Prayers out for your great-aunt and others.

[GPC]

We had the SeaBees from Gulfport come into Honduras in the aftermath of Hurricane Mitch. Their heavy equipment coupled with their intermodal deployability made them a great asset.

They can deploy as easily by plane as by ship.

Their equipment can be ferried in on a LST 2000 faster than it can be flown in by the USAF and the USAF Red Horse teams can.

You are correct after Andrew we were on the ground within 24hrs.Out of Rosie roads.SeaBees can do more with less.Army engineers do good work but to specialized for my liking.So I switched to FA, no disrespect intended.
Hope the recovery is quick.

[WS-G]

I'll bet you it's localized to areas where there are no construction standards and/or construction material was misused. Soil profiles probably had a role in the destruction as well. Earthquakes like this routinely strike California with a lot less damage and casualties.

Since no-one's posted anything here WRT the rest of that island....

http://www.meetingnews.com/mimegasite/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1004059250.

[Polypro]

The island is about 400 miles long. It's about 400 miles from San Fran to LA. During the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake, LA was fine. Glad Dom Rep is still trucking.

P

[B 2/75]

I was about 10 miles from the Loma Prieta earthquake's epicenter, which was right across the bay from Monterrey's DLI. While it was a 7.3 or so, IIRC, since I was laterally displaced from the fault line we only had minor damage. Those along the fault got rocked to the ground.

[Spinner]

I was about 10 miles from the Loma Prieta earthquake's epicenter, which was right across the bay from Monterrey's DLI. While it was a 7.3 or so, IIRC, since I was laterally displaced from the fault line we only had minor damage. Those along the fault got rocked to the ground.

I was there at that time, too, my first real Earthquake. Hopefully, my last.

One of the scariest things I've ever experienced. Even though the PX didn't collapse around me, just watching the ground and the walls seem to do some crazy kind of wave was an eye opener.

[MolonLabe]

Tax dollars already being spent there, a unit from the 82nd have already landed, more on alert time now.

[BadMuther]

please delete.

[B 2/75]

Well, I'm headed to Jamaica in the morning.

I expect when I get back to work (DoD Biometrics) on Wed I expect to hear that the boys in the 82nd will have gotten on the ground, looked around and seen that there are thousands and thousands of individuals whom they can't identify. That observation will have prompted the BDE CDR's query of "where in hell are my BAT kits?" The scramble will likely be swift and ugly.

[ET1/ss nuke]

Sadly, there are idiots that believe that crap.

You know, even if by some stretch Robertson was somehow right, he still needs to keep his trap shut. Even at a crackhead's funeral, people are normally decent enough to find something nice to say over his coffin. Even before the quake, Haiti was the equivalent of the crackhead of the international community. Right now isn't the time to say what he said, even if he believes it is true. That's just basic human decency, something he claims to be a big proponent of. I think he should go back and read the book of Job and see how close his comments come to those of Eliphaz and Bildad, and how God reacted to what they had said.

[Husker19D30]

You know, even if by some stretch Robertson was somehow right, he still needs to keep his trap shut. Even at a crackhead's funeral, people are normally decent enough to find something nice to say over his coffin. Even before the quake, Haiti was the equivalent of the crackhead of the international community. Right now isn't the time to say what he said, even if he believes it is true. That's just basic human decency, something he claims to be a big proponent of. I think he should go back and read the book of Job and see how close his comments come to those of Eliphaz and Bildad, and how God reacted to what they had said.

And yet here you are, doing almost the same thing.

[ET1/ss nuke]

And yet here you are, doing almost the same thing.

Good call, steel on target. My bad.

[Husker19D30]

Good call, steel on target. My bad.

It's cool. I catch myself doin' the same shit all the time.

[SOTB]

Most of the major news orgs are running headlines referring to the reports of looting and now the loss of patience amongst Haitians for receiving relief supplies. But in advance, I think the news orgs WILL publish information that is either unverified or embellished (or even false) -- simply to get that viewer/reader/listener to stay tuned.

Still, I do believe that some of what has been reported is true. Mostly the looting of the local food stores, and the possible looting of WPF stocks that were likely without guards after the incident.

What has it been now? 2 days? 2 and a half days? How long did it take before the initial looting began?

And now people are supposedly irritated that supplies are taking so long to get out to them? Yeah, let's continue to feed that mentality. "You deserve not only our aid but you deserve it yesterday. We apologize for taking so long -- our bad."

What a situation.

The UN is purportedly warning that relief convoys need to provide security for their movements -- hopefully no one doing good deeds gets hurt....

[Blackjack78]

Most of the major news orgs are running headlines referring to the reports of looting and now the loss of patience amongst Haitians for receiving relief supplies. But in advance, I think the news orgs WILL publish information that is either unverified or embellished (or even false) -- simply to get that viewer/reader/listener to stay tuned.

Still, I do believe that some of what has been reported is true. Mostly the looting of the local food stores, and the possible looting of WPF stocks that were likely without guards after the incident.

What has it been now? 2 days? 2 and a half days? How long did it take before the initial looting began?

And now people are supposedly irritated that supplies are taking so long to get out to them? Yeah, let's continue to feed that mentality. "You deserve not only our aid but you deserve it yesterday. We apologize for taking so long -- our bad."

What a situation.

The UN is purportedly warning that relief convoys need to provide security for their movements -- hopefully no one doing good deeds gets hurt....

+1 and heaven forbid one of "Reporters" turns the mic off and gets dirty and actually tries to help somebody.

[0699]

Former US ambassador to Haiti was on NPR this morning. Said (and I paraphrase) we're willing to help Haiti, but they need to get their shit in one bag and act like proper members of the international community.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3

[Tracy]

Yellow Journalism at its finest...

[0699]

Yellow Journalism at its finest...

But it's "public" radio... :biggrin:

[paratroop77]

Well, I'm headed to Jamaica in the morning.

I expect when I get back to work (DoD Biometrics) on Wed I expect to hear that the boys in the 82nd will have gotten on the ground, looked around and seen that there are thousands and thousands of individuals whom they can't identify. That observation will have prompted the BDE CDR's query of "where in hell are my BAT kits?" The scramble will likely be swift and ugly.

Let me know if you hear anything...

[Tracy]

But it's "public" radio... :biggrin:

Actually, my sarcasm was pointed at MSM: Fox, CNN, ABC, CBS and NBC. :smile:

[RGR.Montcalm]

The UN is purportedly warning that relief convoys need to provide security for their movements -- hopefully no one doing good deeds gets hurt....

Now I know what we will do with all the M998 HMMWV's...

[SOTB]

Perhaps the good general was misquoted in stating the US military should have arrived sooner in Haiti (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/01/14/haiti.us.aid/?hpt=T2). If he wasn't misquoted, then I am sure the reason the military has dragged their asses is because Pres Obama hates black people....:rolleyes:

[HighDragLowSpeed]

Gotta love when the celebrities make asinine statements like Danny Glover's comment that the Haiti earthquake was caused by global warming (http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/pact_with_gaia/).

[Big Money]

No chance to look for myself right now, but if this is the same ambassador that was there in the mid '90's- from what I recall he was an asshat then, too.

Former US ambassador to Haiti was on NPR this morning. Said (and I paraphrase) we're willing to help Haiti, but they need to get their shit in one bag and act like proper members of the international community.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3

[0699]

No chance to look for myself right now, but if this is the same ambassador that was there in the mid '90's- from what I recall he was an asshat then, too.

He was the US ambassador to Haiti from 1998-1999 according to the radio.

[WS-G]

Gotta love when the celebrities make asinine statements like Danny Glover's comment that the Haiti earthquake was caused by global warming (http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/pact_with_gaia/).
Any "celebrity" knows it was caused by a serious power-down of the juju ("This never would have happened under Papa Doc!"). :cool:

[OldSoldier71]

This shit is about to get really ugly. Independent church groups are heading down sans security...I read a quote that said, "God will protect us."

Oooook...

[SOTB]

I'm impressed with the amount of consistent stupidity that ret-Gen Honoré is spewing....

"Search and rescue must trump security...." (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/16/haiti.abandoned.patients/index.html?hpt=T1)

[KidA]

At 3:45 a.m., he posted a message on Twitter: "pulling all nighter at haiti field hosp. lots of work, but all patients stable. turned my crew into a crack med team tonight."

That's Sanjay Gupta. I hope like hell his "crew" he's talking about are his camera crew and makeup people and not his travel team of doctors and nurses. If it's doctors and nurses then the audacity of that statement "turned them into a crack med team" is pretty astounding.

"I find this astonishing these doctors left," he said. "People are scared of the poor." That's Honore.

No, General, they are not scared of the poor. They are scared of the criminals who are preying on the poor, the wounded, and the rescuers and medical crews.

[Purple36]

Wow. Good on him.

Port-au-Prince, Haiti (CNN) -- Critically injured earthquake victims watched doctors and nurses walk away from a field hospital Friday night after United Nations officials ordered a medical team to evacuate the area out of security concerns.
Saturday morning the U.N. allowed the medical personnel to return, said Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent.
Gupta was the only doctor left on Friday night with the 25 earthquake victims -- some of them critically ill. He said he assessed their needs, but with no supplies, he said there was little he could do to treat them.
Gupta monitored patients' vital signs, administered painkillers and continued intravenous drips. He stabilized three new patients in critical condition.
"I've never been in a situation like this. This is quite ridiculous," Gupta said Friday night.
<!--startclickprintexclude-->Search and rescue must trump security. ... They need to man up and get back in there.
--Retired Army Lt. Gen. Russell Honoré



<!--endclickprintexclude-->With a dearth of medical facilities in Haiti's capital, ambulances had no where else to take patients, some who had suffered severe trauma -- amputations and head injuries -- under the rubble. Others had suffered a great deal of blood loss, but there were no blood supplies left at the clinic.
Gupta feared that some would not survive the night.
He and his television crew stayed with the injured all night, long after the medical team had left, long after the generators gave out and the tents turned pitch black.
At 3:45 a.m., he posted a message on Twitter: "pulling all nighter at haiti field hosp. lots of work, but all patients stable. turned my crew into a crack med team tonight."
There have been scattered reports of violence throughout the capital.
Gupta said the Belgian doctors did not want to leave their patients behind but were ordered out by the United Nations, which sent buses to transport them.
"There is concern about riots not far from here -- and this is part of the problem," Gupta said.

<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> cnnRelatedTopicKeys.push('Haiti'); </SCRIPT>
<!--endclickprintexclude-->"What is striking to me as a physician is that patients who just had surgery, patients who are critically ill are essentially being left here, nobody to care for them," Gupta said.
Sandra Pierre, a Haitian who has been helping at the makeshift hospital, said the medical staff took most of the supplies with them.
"All the doctors, all the nurses are gone," she said. "They are expected to be back tomorrow. They had no plan on leaving tonight. It was an order that came suddenly."
She told Gupta, "It's just you."
A 7.0 magnitude earthquake flattened Haiti's capital city Tuesday afternoon, affecting as many as 3 million people. Tens of thousands of people are feared dead.
Haiti, the poorest nation in the Western hemisphere, lacked adequate medical resources even before the disaster and has been struggling this week to tend to huge numbers of injured. The U.N. clinic, set up under several tents, was a godsend to the few who were lucky to have been brought there.
It was not known whether the medical team would return in daylight.
Retired Army Lt. Gen. Russel Honoré, who led relief efforts for Hurricane Katrina in 2005, said the evacuation of the clinic's medical staff was unforgivable.
"We can't be leaning so much toward security that we allow people to die," he said Saturday.
"Search and rescue must trump security," Honoré said Friday night. "I've never seen anything like this before in my life. They need to man up and get back in there."
Honoré drew parallels between the tragedy in New Orleans and in Port-au-Prince. But even in the chaos of Katrina, he said, he had never seen medical staff walk away.
"I find this astonishing these doctors left," he said. "People are scared of the poor."

[MakoZeroSix]

Any reason why the 82nd, with their tireless obsession of practicing static line jumps, did not drop the brigade into the country, along with pallets of supplies, instead of sitting around on the tarmac for days waiting for a clear runway to land on? I'm sure there are plenty of surveyed DZs in the area....

[KidA]

Any reason why the 82nd, with their tireless obsession of practicing static line jumps, did not drop the brigade into the country, along with pallets of supplies, instead of sitting around on the tarmac for days waiting for a clear runway to land on? I'm sure there are plenty of surveyed DZs in the area....

I thought the same thing. I know there were some surveyed DZs when I was about to jump in for Uphold Democracy in the 90s. :biggrin:

Probably some GAY thought that jumping in would "send the wrong message."

Surely all that intel from Super Thrust I and II is in a drawer in someone's office.

[Jungle]

Any reason why the 82nd, with their tireless obsession of practicing static line jumps, did not drop the brigade into the country, along with pallets of supplies, instead of sitting around on the tarmac for days waiting for a clear runway to land on? I'm sure there are plenty of surveyed DZs in the area....

We have the same problem; we have Airborne Infantry elements here waiting for a lift to airland us in P-au-P... it now looks like it will be 10 to 14 days before we make it there, as most of our vehs and eqpt will be going by sea.

[BKK]

What about just air dropping MRE's around the island like they did in 2000-02 in Afghanistan. At least it would get some food out there quick, send the right message, and let troops concentrate on setting up some infrastructure to operate there first.

People might fight over the airdropped stuff, but they are going to be fighting and rioting soon anyways.

I am sure we have tons of expired, or about to expire MRE's to throw at them. They can use the chutes as shelters, blankets, or whatever else they can make out of them.

[Jong]

What about just air dropping MRE's around the island like they did in 2000-02 in Afghanistan. At least it would get some food out there quick, send the right message, and let troops concentrate on setting up some infrastructure to operate there first.

People might fight over the airdropped stuff, but they are going to be fighting and rioting soon anyways.

I am sure we have tons of expired, or about to expire MRE's to throw at them. They can use the chutes as shelters, blankets, or whatever else they can make out of them.

Hopefully the Air Force puts chutes on the MREs. Was reading some book and the Air Force in Afghanistan just pushed MREs out the back without chutes. Guess MREs like to explode on impact when dropped!! :biggrin:

[usnavy_233]

What about just air dropping MRE's around the island like they did in 2000-02 in Afghanistan. At least it would get some food out there quick, send the right message, and let troops concentrate on setting up some infrastructure to operate there first.

People might fight over the airdropped stuff, but they are going to be fighting and rioting soon anyways.

I am sure we have tons of expired, or about to expire MRE's to throw at them. They can use the chutes as shelters, blankets, or whatever else they can make out of them.


On the one hand I think that's a great idea. Get them food ASAP. It's a basic need and they can use the chutes for blankets, ponchos, whatever.

On the other hand I'm thinking it would just spark the inevitable massive riots, fighting, mob rule, etc. Then the media will find a way to blame the U.S. for not doing enough and CAUSING massive bloodshed.

Now, if we could find a way to air-drop a few tacos bell chains and have a large percentage of the profits donated to the relief efforts.....

[Titleist]

On the one hand I think that's a great idea. Get them food ASAP. It's a basic need and they can use the chutes for blankets, ponchos, whatever.

On the other hand I'm thinking it would just spark the inevitable massive riots, fighting, mob rule, etc. Then the media will find a way to blame the U.S. for not doing enough and CAUSING massive bloodshed.

Now, if we could find a way to air-drop a few tacos bell chains and have a large percentage of the profits donated to the relief efforts.....

You are a "Genius." :biggrin:

[0699]

No need to talk about them (ROEs) on an open forum, but soldiers from the 82nd had weapons with them on the news this morning. Hoping the ROE will allow them to defend themselves if needed.

[sigma1]

Guys
Finally getting some internet.

Montana is gone.
Apartments behind the montana are gone. A lot of US Embassy guys lived there.
Not all made it out.
About 200 missing from Montana.
UN Headquaters gone.
40% of big buildings in PAP are down.
About another 10% show stress fractures.
After the 1st night the dead were laying in the streets. The next day they were gone. picked up, buried in mass graves without id.
Including most of dead from Montana. Tourists and expats included.
Yes prison is empty. All the Cite Soley gang members are out and about.
Already at least 8 police officers dead from shoot outs.
Looting has started downtown.
The people in the street has not seen any of all the aid that is supposedly coming in.
they have been out in the streets now for 4 days with nothing to eat and no water.
Hospitals are swamped.
Aid coming in is slow.

Sigma 1

[0699]

Glad to hear you're still up & kicking. Stay safe.

[grahamcracker977]

Donated to Red Cross today. The group I volunteer with (Project Cure) is sending medical supplies as well.

Hope the process of getting into Haiti and distributing supplies becomes more efficient and fast...

[RhodieBKK]

When the bulk of troops get into theatre surely it would make sense for the Haitian govt
-or whats left of it - declare martial law and have anyone carrying a machete or weapon shot?
Civil disorder is a very real problem just for the people's need to stay alive and the inability to get water & food in to secure distribution points;
but the gangs, who have destabilised the country for so long, have returned and could present a real threat to the restoration of some order.
Like ceding control of the airport to the US, the Haitian president could empower US & other forces to engage where necessary.
This obviously has the potential of sucking the US into another long term committment,
but listening to POTUS it appears such a pledge has already been given.

[SOTB]

When the bulk of troops get into theatre surely it would make sense for the Haitian govt
-or whats left of it - declare martial law and have anyone carrying a machete or weapon shot?Hmm, and how many people trying to keep the badguys off their streets/out of their neighborhoods get shot by the "goodguys?"

[Tracy]

When the bulk of troops get into theatre surely it would make sense for the Haitian govt
-or whats left of it - declare martial law and have anyone carrying a machete or weapon shot?...

Not that simple for the reasons SOTB outlined. I worked refugee camps in Africa and the Middle East and more often than not there were armed refugees behaving themselves in the camps. We did our work, they were polite to us and aid was distributed.

[sigma1]

Hmm, and how many people trying to keep the badguys off their streets/out of their neighborhoods get shot by the "goodguys?"

+2000

[TXAggie05]

After Ike there were folks walking around Beaumont wearing rifles... they pretty much kept their own law. And there was not a crime spike. I don't think it's right to take away people's self defense...

(before I lose the edit, I do realize there is a bit of cultural difference between the two locales)

[RetPara]

Necessary, but unfortunate.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/01/14/haiti.mass.fatalities.bodies/index.html?hpt=T2

[SOTB]

I know the woman in THIS STORY (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583206,00.html). Cool she survived. She was of sincere and vast assistance to me on a very key and specific portion of some work I did in the country....

[RGR.Montcalm]

Any reason why the 82nd, with their tireless obsession of practicing static line jumps, did not drop the brigade into the country, along with pallets of supplies, instead of sitting around on the tarmac for days waiting for a clear runway to land on? I'm sure there are plenty of surveyed DZs in the area....

Why? So they could sit on the DZ waiting for heavy drops of vehicles? Better to airland with all your personnel and equipment intact than risk it under those circumstances...

They would also need numerous HDs to just resupply themselves and then have to guard the shit they couldn't carry from the locals that would steal anything they could get their hands on- including Arctic gear...

[SATCOM]

Better to airland with all your personnel and equipment intact than risk it under those circumstances...

They would also need numerous HDs to just resupply themselves and then have to guard the shit they couldn't carry from the locals that would steal anything they could get their hands on- including Arctic gear...

Priceless! Airland is always the preferred method. That is why CCT is trained to survey/assess the runway/HLZ/DZ, so hundreds of C-130's and C-17's can land......and therefore be "raved" about by the news. My unit did this in New Orleans after Katrina, conducting the largest NEO in history.

[Purple36]

I know the woman in THIS STORY (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583206,00.html). Cool she survived. She was of sincere and vast assistance to me on a very key and specific portion of some work I did in the country....

I'm very glad your friend survived. This thing is just heartbreaking..the extent of the devastation and suffering. Damn.

[Purple36]

Guys
Finally getting some internet.

Montana is gone.
Apartments behind the montana are gone. A lot of US Embassy guys lived there.
Not all made it out.
About 200 missing from Montana.
UN Headquaters gone.
40% of big buildings in PAP are down.
About another 10% show stress fractures.
After the 1st night the dead were laying in the streets. The next day they were gone. picked up, buried in mass graves without id.
Including most of dead from Montana. Tourists and expats included.
Yes prison is empty. All the Cite Soley gang members are out and about.
Already at least 8 police officers dead from shoot outs.
Looting has started downtown.
The people in the street has not seen any of all the aid that is supposedly coming in.
they have been out in the streets now for 4 days with nothing to eat and no water.
Hospitals are swamped.
Aid coming in is slow.

Sigma 1

Sigma1,

How are YOU?

[MakoZeroSix]

Priceless! Airland is always the preferred method. That is why CCT is trained to survey/assess the runway/HLZ/DZ, so hundreds of C-130's and C-17's can land......and therefore be "raved" about by the news. My unit did this in New Orleans after Katrina, conducting the largest NEO in history.

Yeah, how's that one whole airport working out for the rescue effort?

Why? So they could sit on the DZ waiting for heavy drops of vehicles? Better to airland with all your personnel and equipment intact than risk it under those circumstances...

They would also need numerous HDs to just resupply themselves and then have to guard the shit they couldn't carry from the locals that would steal anything they could get their hands on- including Arctic gear...

What, all those airborne qualified cooks and saxophone players on Bragg have something better to do?

If airborne operations are so precarious, even in a humanitarian mission where there isn't going to be AAA and opposing troops on the ground- then why do we even bother with it anymore?

[JD Bobcat]

Also when making air drops, the locals tend to stampede to the multiple LZ's and cause more injury and panic .. ultimately, more dead bodies ...

Such a tragedy(shaking head) ...... my uncle was in Dominican in '65-'66 with the 82nd. in the aftermath of the ******** assasination in '61 and resulting political chaos ..

.. reading old letters from him to family .. "the poverty is worse than Juarez, and locals were offerin' their daughters up to G.I's for a buck .. we gave them what we could .. "

.. l'm sure this disaster is even worse culture shock to some of our young soldiers; death, smell, poverty .. but a good 'life' experience .. albeit trajic ..

God Bless'em All !

[Tracy]

...If airborne operations are so precarious, even in a humanitarian mission where there isn't going to be AAA and opposing troops on the ground- then why do we even bother with it anymore?

Personally, I think every brigade-and-below unit that has 'Airborne' in its title has to air drop everything it owns into a remote DZ(s) and operate 72 hours without resupply, and 21 days with only combat train resupply via CDS bundles. Once a year.

Hell, with our current operating areas they could jump in to begin their rotation...

Yes, the risk of injury is greater; hence the concept behind jump pay. I still think it's necessary and vital to exercise the air drop option for the units. As far as waiting on the heavy drop for the big-ticket items, it's time to re-think that option: how did the 82d and 101st Airborne get by with so few vehicles in WW2?

In relation to HA/DR operations, an air dropped brigade with light pioneering kits per squad can do an enormous amount of good work as part of an initial response.

[MakoZeroSix]

Also when making air drops, the locals tend to stampede to the multiple LZ's and cause more injury and panic .. ultimately, more dead bodies ...


There isn't going to be any stampede unless you drop in bundles unattended. If thousands of men with rifles land right next to the supply bundles a few minutes later, then they can be passed out in a semi-orderly fashion.

Personally, I think every brigade-and-below unit that has 'Airborne' in its title has to air drop everything it owns into a remote DZ(s) and operate 72 hours without resupply, and 21 days with only combat train resupply via CDS bundles. Once a year.

Hell, with our current operating areas they could jump in to begin their rotation...

Yes, the risk of injury is greater; hence the concept behind jump pay. I still think it's necessary and vital to exercise the air drop option for the units. As far as waiting on the heavy drop for the big-ticket items, it's time to re-think that option: how did the 82d and 101st Airborne get by with so few vehicles in WW2?

I agree, and furthermore think that SF units should stop static line operations altogether, since they really aren't ever going to use that, and add an extra HALO team per company and just train MFF only.

[SOTB]

In relation to HA/DR operations, an air dropped brigade with light pioneering kits per squad can do an enormous amount of good work as part of an initial response.I'm completely opposed to spending tax dollars there, as I've stated, but Tracy's comment (and obviously Mako's as well) is waaaaaaaaaaaay spot on. Yeah, HE is really neato to have, but when you don't have it? Just cross your arms and sit there and stare?

Hijole. LOTS of Haitians are getting it done without HE right now. Furthermore, there are lots of places that you ain't gonna get HE into anyway -- until you get stuff moved.

Bottom line, I agree with all of Tracy's post, especially that pertaining to units having to do drop all their shit and work once per year. I also agree that the insert should be utilized more often -- especially in those areas we are amazingly/frightfully low on helo assets (I ain't saying where -- but I think everyone knows where I am referring to). Personally, I think if people were to work with the insert more often, some new technology would probably come to pass that would greatly lessen the injuries....

[SOTB]

I agree, and furthermore think that SF units should stop static line operations altogether, since they really aren't ever going to use that, and add an extra HALO team per company and just train MFF only.No arguments on the MFF assets, but you really think SF should do away with SL?

Dude, if I were the local SF king in-country for a year, I would have a couple of my ODAs build me a fast and furious indig SL Mike Force asset and I would go tearing around the Stan looking for job opportunities allowing me to drop my dudes in as QRF blocking forces. Build my unit 50% bigger than necessary for injury considerations, put everyone in rough terrain suits, non-steerable canopies, and beau-coup bundles with every stick. I think SL still very much has a place....

[SATCOM]

Yeah, how's that one whole airport working out for the rescue effort?



I don't know, I'm not there. I am in CONUS. Three of my troops are there though.

[MakoZeroSix]

Dude, if I were the local SF king in-country for a year, I would have a couple of my ODAs build me a fast and furious indig SL Mike Force asset and I would go tearing around the Stan looking for job opportunities allowing me to drop my dudes in as QRF blocking forces. Build my unit 50% bigger than necessary for injury considerations, put everyone in rough terrain suits, non-steerable canopies, and beau-coup bundles with every stick. I think SL still very much has a place....

LOL! I love your idea, but this is SF we're talking about. They'd never let us do anything that cool. You should have seen the reaction when I suggested training our Iraqi SWAT team in fast-roping so we could do joint DA ops like that. They looked at me like I just shit on the floor. "You'll get a bunch of them killed!" They said, like that was a big deal or something.

[5831lvn]

"You'll get a bunch of them killed!" They said, like that was a big deal or something.

LMAO

[BadMuther]

Reports don't sound good. In fact they sound heartbreaking. I just heard a report at an orphanage of 26 infants (alive) in the back of a dumptruck with no water or food/formula.

I'm on standby to go, not sure if we'll be able to or not.

I wish the US Military would deploy enough troops to maintain order and find a solution to getting aid in there.

Anybody hear know anybody from southcom?

[JD Bobcat]

[QUOTE=MakoZeroSix;1251720]There isn't going to be any stampede unless you drop in bundles unattended. If thousands of men with rifles land right next to the supply bundles a few minutes later, then they can be passed out in a semi-orderly fashion.

Being its Haiti and not Somalia .... l think protecting pallets of food with 'thousands' of armed soldiers maybe a little overkill ..

l'm not looking at the topography in PAP .. so finding a proper DZ near the starving people may or may not be a logistics nightmare ...

l reckon they got it figger'd out now .......

[Tracy]

Reports don't sound good. In fact they sound heartbreaking. I just heard a report at an orphanage of 26 infants (alive) in the back of a dumptruck with no water or food/formula.

I'm on standby to go, not sure if we'll be able to or not.

I wish the US Military would deploy enough troops to maintain order and find a solution to getting aid in there.

Anybody hear know anybody from southcom?

I hear you; but as a former commander of a refugee camp I can tell you that DoD and the COCOM is not the bottleneck.

The battle is physics, math and politics. It's gut wrenching to see; but people are going to die for any number of reasons. The key is steady persistence. We cannot afford start-stop-start ops. The Haitians will go kill crazy. We'll save more lives in the long run if we keep steady progress. It sucks, but I've seen first hand what happens when we rush in then slack off; I have to start killing the belligerent ones.

[Greenhat]

LOL! I love your idea, but this is SF we're talking about. They'd never let us do anything that cool.

SF did it a lot in Vietnam.

[Tracy]

Here's a question:

Given the USA is involved, regardless of opinions, what should the relief effort look like for the next six months? 12 months?

As I see it, the situation is that Haiti will never have the capital to construct hurricane and earthquake resistant buildings. So the next best thing to do is prepare for the next disaster(s).

To that end I think a much more prudent effort would be to construct disaster centers in the form of post-stressed slab foundations with reinforced metal framing designed for Cat-III hurricanes. No equipment in them, just the buildings with power and clean cold water supplies. Put them along easily cleared LOCs and fence them off. Put class-5 helicopter landing zones inside the wire also. Use guards to keep them empty.

Second, I'd get the Peace Corps, USDA and the 4-H Clubs to start up their agricultural programs throughout the country. Crop rotation, bio-diversity, etc.

Third, I'd start 'weaning' the Haitians totally off the welfare within six months.

[BadMuther]

Tracy, having been there you know one of the problems is lack of aridable land on which to farm along with access to clean water.

I like your other ideas, not sure of the feasability of building, maintaining, stocking, guarding empty centers, but hey, it's an idea, right? :)

I hope something is done to help Haiti get on the right path. No easy answers to the situation.

Disregard my southcom request, that was for a seperate request then I am currently on standby for and that particular mission there is no longer a need.

[BKK]

Chutes Away!

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/18/haiti.airdrop/index.html?section=cnn_latest

[RetPara]

So according to the news this morning the Haitian government is telling the PAP populace to leave the city and go to the country side. Now I can see where that would

a. reduce congestion in an area that can no longer support the population
b. parcel out the population into smaller 'bunches' that will be easier to manage and support
c. reduce the spread of diseases across the population as a whole.

On the flip side -bad...

a. population is spread further out into areas that can't support themselves, let alone an increase in head count.
b. Real high potential for conflict between locals and refugees over scarce resources.
c. Communication issues exacerbated by distance in remote areas.
d. WHERE are they going? Is this a plan or "get 'em out of town and out of sight - we'll deal with it later.?

How far off am I?

[RGR.Montcalm]

What about just air dropping MRE's around the island like they did in 2000-02 in Afghanistan. At least it would get some food out there quick, send the right message, and let troops concentrate on setting up some infrastructure to operate there first.

People might fight over the airdropped stuff, but they are going to be fighting and rioting soon anyways.

I am sure we have tons of expired, or about to expire MRE's to throw at them. They can use the chutes as shelters, blankets, or whatever else they can make out of them.

Actually, the Air force dropped MRE/Humanitarian Meals in Kosovo/Herzogovinia/Macedonia by packaging them up in big boxes for transport, then cuting the boxes open just before lowering the ramp. The reason is because the pallets of MREs were killing some people trying to 'catch' them and/or hitting houses and collasping roofs. The individual packets will survive a fall of 500 feet easily (except for the crackers :rolleyes:). and are less likely to cause injury...

[RGR.Montcalm]

Personally, I think every brigade-and-below unit that has 'Airborne' in its title has to air drop everything it owns into a remote DZ(s) and operate 72 hours without resupply, and 21 days with only combat train resupply via CDS bundles. Once a year.

Hell, with our current operating areas they could jump in to begin their rotation...

Yes, the risk of injury is greater; hence the concept behind jump pay. I still think it's necessary and vital to exercise the air drop option for the units. As far as waiting on the heavy drop for the big-ticket items, it's time to re-think that option: how did the 82d and 101st Airborne get by with so few vehicles in WW2?

In relation to HA/DR operations, an air dropped brigade with light pioneering kits per squad can do an enormous amount of good work as part of an initial response.

I agree with the premise of exercising the capability (other than not having enough Paid Parachutist's Positions anymore) every year.

I also agree that the Airborne forces in WWII did a lot without a lot of vehicles.

HOWEVER, this mission and the jump in Holland have as little in common as apples and pomegranites.

There is an identified need for heavy equipment for this mission; Operation Market Garden needed bunches of pissed off paratroopers killing Germans. Local trucks and German equipment was commandeered- not too many of those availble for our use in Haiti that aren't already being used to carry away the dead, transport water, or being used as makeshift ambulances.

The infrastructure of Holland wasn't in total collaspe and the people weren't starving to death and didin't lack clean water; the people of Haiti are.

GIs could and did scrounge for food, slept in the convenient barn/house/store, and had almost unlimited potable water to drink. All of those are lacking there (in Haiti).

FWIW- there's only 60 people in the 82nd Band (by MTOE) and YOUR cooks are going to be cooking for you, so when are they pulling security?

[Spinner]

This just leaves me speechless, even if Royal Caribbean is bringing in some supplies and donating the proceeds from their port call to relief efforts.

http://www.katu.com/news/national/82092877.html

The 3,100 passengers on board the cruise ship were allowed to jet-ski, para-sail and picnic in the sand on beaches protected by fences and armed guards.

I suppose in one respect, life goes on and it's far enough away from the worst of it that it's not really interfering with relief operations.

But who the hell would want to go parasailing knowing that just over the horizon, one of the most devastating earthquakes ever in our hemisphere is still wreaking havoc on the population?

[DirtyDog0311]

But who the hell would want to go parasailing knowing that just over the horizon, one of the most devastating earthquakes ever in our hemisphere is still wreaking havoc on the population?

Uh...ME. Especially If I already paid for tickets in advance. Call me a fucking dirtbag, but if I already paid for something, and they ain't handing out refunds, I better be fucking parasailing SOMEWHERE. Just as long as the wails of sorrow don't disturb my peaceful jetskiing experience. Outta sight, outta mind.

[Spinner]

As I stated, life goes on and it's not as if you'd be frollicking on the beach as Haitians are recovering bodies less than 200 yards away. And in some respects, the tourism dollars can only help the Haitians.

I still think it's a little too close, and a little too devastating, to be enjoying a portion of your vacation there so soon after an earthquake of that magnitude hit.

[Hawk14]

Damn now they had this 6.1 aftershock, can they get a break?

[SOTB]

I still think it's a little too close, and a little too devastating, to be enjoying a portion of your vacation there so soon after an earthquake of that magnitude hit.As long as you are not being forced to see or smell the results of the problems -- I honestly would not care. This argument can be tailored pretty much to anyone's leanings -- if you go you are insensitive, if you don't then the locals lose the earnings from the fees paid for access to the zone. I say carry on with the business.Damn now they had this 6.1 aftershock, can they get a break?Dude, seriously -- no offense, but it isn't that dramatic. YES, I've lived through strong earthquakes and strong aftershocks, so I'm not writing without at least some degree of sympathy. But truly, no biggee -- understand that structures are weak and move on.

I've yet to see evidence that HAITI is standing up and putting on a display of badass governance and integration into the 21st century -- instead I see THIS SHIT (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583420,00.html);"We need so much. Food, clothes, we need everything. I don't know whose responsibility it is, but they need to give us something soon," said Sophia Eltime, a 29-year-old mother of two who has been living under a bedsheet with seven members of her extended family.People ranting about helping out this type of person. And after the assistance is provided? What does this person plan to do to be a productive member of this planet?

Fuck that. IMO, pull everything that is not related to protecting US property out and leave the charity stuff to NGOs and donations....

[Sniper111]

Sigma- glad to see you're hanging in there.

Kind of odd knowing the Villa Creole and the Montana aren't there anymore.

"We need so much. Food, clothes, we need everything. I don't know whose responsibility it is, but they need to give us something soon," said Sophia Eltime, a 29-year-old mother of two who has been living under a bedsheet with seven members of her extended family.

I'm with SB on the assessment that we need to do what we need to in order to secure US interests and leave it at that. Saw the same shit in NOLA- "Someone else come and take charge of my life". Disgusting seeing people not taking the SLIGHTEST bit of interest in maybe kinda/sorta helping themselves.

[SOTB]

I'm very glad your friend survived....To be fair and clear, she wasn't a friend -- just a businesswoman who took some chances and trusted me to do something that had never been done in the country before. I pulled it off, and I think she even got some cool publicity out of it.

I am glad to see she survived.Kind of odd knowing the Villa Creole and the Montana aren't there anymore.Ouch, the Villa Creole is gone too? Well, there went my two fav PAP-AO sleeping joints....

[SoCalSurfer]

...Fuck that. IMO, pull everything that is not related to protecting US property out and leave the charity stuff to NGOs and donations....

I agree 100%

[Tracy]

Damn now they had this 6.1 aftershock, can they get a break?

A 6.1 rating on the moment magnitude scale is about 25-30 times less than the 7.0 rating. So yes, it will shake them up; but not nearly as bad as the initial shock.

[Tracy]

A 6.1 rating on the moment magnitude scale is about 25-30 times less than the 7.0 rating. So yes, it will shake them up; but not nearly as bad as the initial shock.

Addendum: 6.1 is actually 19-25 times less energy than a 7.0 earthquake on the Moment Magnitude Scale.

[Keganswar]

My heart goes out to the people of Haiti. But doesn’t anyone feel like people are helping for the most part because it’s the popular thing to do while they are conversing at star bucks.

Not to knock anyone helping out but Haiti was not very well off before the earthquake.

I donated some money to the red cross so I guess I am one of the hypocrites I am pointing out. But still it does make one pause and think.

[poison]

My heart goes out to the people of Haiti. But doesn’t anyone feel like people are helping for the most part because it’s the popular thing to do while they are conversing at star bucks.

Not to knock anyone helping out but Haiti was not very well off before the earthquake.

I donated some money to the red cross so I guess I am one of the hypocrites I am pointing out. But still it does make one pause and think.

The starving haitian/african/burmese doesn't care if the dollar was donated because it's trendy, because some dude wanted to impress his new bimbo, or out of pure concern and generosity.

Sure, people should be more giving more of the time, but ANYTHING helps. Reasoning is between the owner and God.

And if you weren't aware, americans are the most charitable folks on the planet, by ANY stanard. Something like 60% of the total donations come from households making $60 or less. US charity eclipses every other nations contributions in sheer size, per capita, you name it. Pretty badass if you ask me.

[SOTB]

Sure, people should be more giving more of the time....No....

[smp52]

If we're looking at helping Haiti out, from a long term economic perspective it be worth looking at our agricultural policies, specifically sugar. The following blog post, which was linked on Marginal Revolution, makes an interesting point.

Haiti and US Sugar Policy (http://greedgreengrains.blogspot.com/2010/01/haiti-and-us-sugar-policy.html)

[SoCalSurfer]

The starving haitian/african/burmese doesn't care if the dollar was donated because it's trendy, because some dude wanted to impress his new bimbo, or out of pure concern and generosity.

Sure, people should be more giving more of the time, but ANYTHING helps. Reasoning is between the owner and God.

And if you weren't aware, americans are the most charitable folks on the planet, by ANY stanard. Something like 60% of the total donations come from households making $60 or less. US charity eclipses every other nations contributions in sheer size, per capita, you name it. Pretty badass if you ask me.

IMO that’s a good reason why our government doesn't need to be sending troops, money, or any other aid to Haiti. Let private charities do their thing.

[Almighty Bones]

We have been helping them out longterm already with around 200+ million a year. I saw a number on tv of just shy of 3 billion givin to the nation in the last 10 or so years and I don't see that stopping anytime soon.


If we're looking at helping Haiti out, from a long term economic perspective it be worth looking at our agricultural policies, specifically sugar. The following blog post, which was linked on Marginal Revolution, makes an interesting point.

Haiti and US Sugar Policy (http://greedgreengrains.blogspot.com/2010/01/haiti-and-us-sugar-policy.html)

[SOTB]

We have been helping them out longterm already with around 200+ million a year. I saw a number on tv of just shy of 3 billion givin to the nation in the last 10 or so years and I don't see that stopping anytime soon.And a FANTASTIC amount of good that assistance has done. But I think you are correct, even with such a poor track record of any gains at all, we will still keep sending them money.

Aside from my belief that the aid we send is actually counter-productive, I am also of the belief that we are misplaced in our thoughts that they "deserve" assistance. A helping hand.

Bear with me. Sometime this week I was talking with some Mexicans about the hurricane in Acapulco some years back. And how the govt had stated -- numerous times -- that people should not build in this one particular draw that ran off this mountain/hillside. Of course, people did it anyway. Of course, people stated that this was their only option, because they were poor. Right. Well, the hurricane was a big dumb force that didn't care about economics and seriously fucked up everyone and everything in that draw. House-sized boulders came down in the resulting slide, and people died by the scores. And then the next day, those that had lived there had both their hands out demanding assistance and were also complaining that the govt wasn't doing enough to prevent these incidents. Yay people -- I love when you prove me right that you suck (people as a whole, not individuals).

Haitians have been living in this situation of being the poorest in this hemisphere FOREVER. How many people here have been to Haiti? Or have even bothered to look up pre-earthquake photos of the streets and peoples? IMO -- and I realize it is just MY opinion -- there are whole groups of peoples that we as a planet can do better without. Wanna kill your neighbors because they don't hail from your same tribe? You just earned a place on the "you should be extinct" list. Wanna scorch your land completely free of all agricultural opportunities because you are essentially idiots? You just earned a spot on the list, too. Wanna build your structures completely without regard for safety? You too.

Hey, I don't judge people because they have hearts and want to donate to help others. But I don't appreciate when people judge me as callous simply because I disagree with partaking of their decision. And I certainly don't like the idea of sending MY tax dollars to a place that will NOT change. In 12 months, Port-au-Prince will be the same shithole it is now -- and people will still be demanding that our nation reach BACKWARDS and help them out. 'Cause somehow it is our responsibility.

RAT used to tell me that we needed a big-assed war to wipe out most of the people on the planet. I agree with him that we need a lot of people to go away -- personally, I think the answer lies in just letting the ones that refuse to get with the program and evolve (including those that CAN'T), just die off. If we were to stay out of Haiti's way, they would either fix their shit or eventually die off. Either is cool by me....

[24/7]

I think the answer lies in just letting the ones that refuse to get with the program and evolve (including those that CAN'T), just die off.

Well there goes 98% of our elected officials....Oops, there goes my outside voice again. :biggrin: See ya.

[Keganswar]

The starving haitian/african/burmese doesn't care if the dollar was donated because it's trendy, because some dude wanted to impress his new bimbo, or out of pure concern and generosity.

Sure, people should be more giving more of the time, but ANYTHING helps. Reasoning is between the owner and God.

And if you weren't aware, americans are the most charitable folks on the planet, by ANY stanard. Something like 60% of the total donations come from households making $60 or less. US charity eclipses every other nations contributions in sheer size, per capita, you name it. Pretty badass if you ask me.

Yes I was aware that our country is the most charitable and I think its one of our strong points as a nation.

I was just referring to the fact that Haiti as a country was not much worse off then it is right now all things considered. But no one at the “water cooler” could have given a rats ass about Haiti until It was on the news disturbing the soccer moms from there slumber that is life.


It is wonderful that people want to help. But will they still be doing that in 6 months? Doubt it. Will Haiti use this unexpected win fall of money and resources to make there lives better in some way and become a stronger and more productive country. Doubt that to.

[JD Bobcat]

IMO that’s a good reason why our government doesn't need to be sending troops, money, or any other aid to Haiti. Let private charities do their thing.

Lets build a badass Embassy/Country Club first before we deedee outta there ! .. 200 million oughta buy a great view overlooking a remote bay somewhere .. :cool:

Wyclef and Co. can go back and save'em every year ....:rolleyes:

[Sniper111]

I am glad to see she survived.Ouch, the Villa Creole is gone too? Well, there went my two fav PAP-AO sleeping joints....

From what I got the east side wing that overlooks the street with the red tiled house on the corner has collapsed.

Loved the Villa Creole- never stayed at the Montana but the steaks there were better and the chocolate cake was not quite as good as sex but up there.

Supposedly the cell site in Canape Vert held up so at least I have one place I was at that is still intact :smile:

The thing that always amazed me about Haiti is how do you go about utterly fucking up a Carribean Island? That takes some serious dedication and hard work.

[SOTB]

The thing that always amazed me about Haiti is how do you go about utterly fucking up a Carribean Island? That takes some serious dedication and hard work.+1....

[smp52]

We have been helping them out longterm already with around 200+ million a year. I saw a number on tv of just shy of 3 billion givin to the nation in the last 10 or so years and I don't see that stopping anytime soon.

And that's the problem with western aid. We give money out, we don't make people earn it. When addressing our agricultural policy, all I'm saying is we should be following free market standards. It makes no sense to give all that money, only to to handicap a market because we artificially prop the price of sugar up by limiting imports and propping up domestic industry. Heck, if sugar were cheaper, I'd get soda with real sugar instead of fructose corn syrup among other things. Now, if US policy is addressed to actually allow market conditions to dictate the price of something like Sugar, instead of superficially building quotas, Haiti has an opporunity to compete if they get their act together.

Chronic aid in terms of handouts actually depresses productivity and economic growth. Simply shotgunning money at a problem doesn't work. Hasn't worked in Africa and won't work anywhere else. Until a country addresses its fundamental civic infrastructure and education, not much can improve.

Personally, I disagree that acute aid should not be given - we make positive gains there in saving lives. However, I do agree how our long term aid is provided needs to be looked at, seriously. Research and development, actual free market policies and trade generates the right set of incentives. A handout stream doesn't allow local agriculture, business, or leadership to flourish because there is no reward in the system.

[SOTB]

Research and development, actual free market policies and trade generates the right set of incentives. A handout stream doesn't allow local agriculture, business, or leadership to flourish because there is no reward in the system.I could get behind your idea, albeit I would be cautious and distrustful of the Haitians.

In short, follow the idea the Chinese have done in Africa. We'll give you fuckers aid, but we want access to your shit. In this case, the aid we give will be two-fold. First, the short-term shit that is being given now. The second part would include US COMPANIES setting up and running farms, tourism, whatever. We get clear and nonnegotiable rights to invest without any bullshit corruption or backing out later. We, in-turn, build infrastructure in Haiti, hiring Haitians. But WE run it. Not them. The "aid" that they are then receiving is via investment and salaries.

But we are too stupid to do that. We would rather send them boatloads of rice and oil every year. How novel....

[poison]

And a FANTASTIC amount of good that assistance has done. But I think you are correct, even with such a poor track record of any gains at all, we will still keep sending them money.

Aside from my belief that the aid we send is actually counter-productive, I am also of the belief that we are misplaced in our thoughts that they "deserve" assistance. A helping hand.

Bear with me. Sometime this week I was talking with some Mexicans about the hurricane in Acapulco some years back. And how the govt had stated -- numerous times -- that people should not build in this one particular draw that ran off this mountain/hillside. Of course, people did it anyway. Of course, people stated that this was their only option, because they were poor. Right. Well, the hurricane was a big dumb force that didn't care about economics and seriously fucked up everyone and everything in that draw. House-sized boulders came down in the resulting slide, and people died by the scores. And then the next day, those that had lived there had both their hands out demanding assistance and were also complaining that the govt wasn't doing enough to prevent these incidents. Yay people -- I love when you prove me right that you suck (people as a whole, not individuals).

Haitians have been living in this situation of being the poorest in this hemisphere FOREVER. How many people here have been to Haiti? Or have even bothered to look up pre-earthquake photos of the streets and peoples? IMO -- and I realize it is just MY opinion -- there are whole groups of peoples that we as a planet can do better without. Wanna kill your neighbors because they don't hail from your same tribe? You just earned a place on the "you should be extinct" list. Wanna scorch your land completely free of all agricultural opportunities because you are essentially idiots? You just earned a spot on the list, too. Wanna build your structures completely without regard for safety? You too.

Hey, I don't judge people because they have hearts and want to donate to help others. But I don't appreciate when people judge me as callous simply because I disagree with partaking of their decision. And I certainly don't like the idea of sending MY tax dollars to a place that will NOT change. In 12 months, Port-au-Prince will be the same shithole it is now -- and people will still be demanding that our nation reach BACKWARDS and help them out. 'Cause somehow it is our responsibility.

RAT used to tell me that we needed a big-assed war to wipe out most of the people on the planet. I agree with him that we need a lot of people to go away -- personally, I think the answer lies in just letting the ones that refuse to get with the program and evolve (including those that CAN'T), just die off. If we were to stay out of Haiti's way, they would either fix their shit or eventually die off. Either is cool by me....

I'm pretty confident the issue is not with aid, or charity, but how its administered. You can't take a program, like you describe as being detrimental in haiti, and extropolate that because haiti is worse off now, charity sucks ansd evereyone less off than you or me should hurry up and die. Sure, there are groups of people who suck ansd deserve to die, and there are also aid programs which do harm. Here's a little secret: there are tons of good people who want to grow and improve, but need help to do so, and there are well run aid programs which do only good. The beauty of it is you can spend 20 minutes on the net, pic your favorite cause, and find a well run program to help.

Don't like haiti? Donate to byour local orphans/veterans/homeless shelter/whathaveyou. See the results with your own eyes.

For the record, tthrough an odd set of circumstances, I ended up sick and homeless on the street in israel for weeks. Dunno about you, but I still believe I didn't deserve to die on the street, and thank those who helped me from the bottom of my heart.

[smp52]

I could get behind your idea, albeit I would be cautious and distrustful of the Haitians.

In short, follow the idea the Chinese have done in Africa. We'll give you fuckers aid, but we want access to your shit. In this case, the aid we give will be two-fold. First, the short-term shit that is being given now. The second part would include US COMPANIES setting up and running farms, tourism, whatever. We get clear and nonnegotiable rights to invest without any bullshit corruption or backing out later. We, in-turn, build infrastructure in Haiti, hiring Haitians. But WE run it. Not them. The "aid" that they are then receiving is via investment and salaries.

But we are too stupid to do that. We would rather send them boatloads of rice and oil every year. How novel....

Agreed 100%.

[SOTB]

For the record....For the record, I am not opposed to providing charity or assistance. I am opposed to giving to lost causes. I am also in disagreement with the concept that "everyone should give more" or anything like that -- actually, I think that whole philosophy is socialist bullshit, but that is another thread I suppose.

While your exampled history is certainly one showing how someone on their bad day can surpass that moment, it has nothing -- ZERO -- to do with a place like Haiti. I hope you can see that. If you choose not to, I am neither insulted nor judgmental. But I do think you are not truly and fairly discussing the same issue. Or do you also think the Palestinian state is just trying to get ahead -- and only need a helping hand? If only we gave them a little more assistance, they could get over the speedbump that is blocking them from becoming productive members of this planet....

[Big Money]

And that is the way it is for Haitians:

You say fuck 'em;
You weep for them;
Or you simply accept that's the way it is there, you reserve judgement of their culture and history, and as a human you do what you can for individuals. Oppression takes many forms.

[random]

For the record, I am not opposed to providing charity or assistance. I am opposed to giving to lost causes. I am also in disagreement with the concept that "everyone should give more" or anything like that -- actually, I think that whole philosophy is socialist bullshit, but that is another thread I suppose.


+1.

Literally, the only thing stopping me from going to Haiti right now is the fact that I'm in the most difficult semester of my life and simply cannot. I'm not whining, just to be clear, I'm stating facts. I've got the language, the humanitarian aid experience, and a team needing volunteers. I would LOVE to go help. However, I know that the team I would go with has a limit. Sure, we all feel awful for the tragedy and would love to help them (the people on the team, that is), but we're not going to stay there forever and a day while they don't take the aid and start to rebuild their lives. I'm not okay with that, and I wouldn't participate in a team that operated under that philosophy.

I was literally furious when I saw Haitians protesting on the news because the supplies weren't reaching them fast enough. The airport was jammed from people flying in supplies, roads were blocked, and helicopter transport is slow. They literally had thousands of people ready and willing with aid, but logistics of getting to them took time. Rather than protest, why didn't they start clearing the streets of debris so trucks could get through? Why didn't they start organizing to take action to improve the situation, rather than organize to walk around pointlessly? That was ridiculous.

Just to clarify, I know some Haitians were helping to clear roads, working with medical teams, etc. I'm not speaking about them. I am speaking about people that had no right to aid they were getting marching around in circles complaining that the aid givers weren't fast enough.

[Sniper111]

Just found out my driver made it through OK although his house is damaged.

Pretty good dude and I'm happy he made it. One of the very few squared away Haitians I knew.

Love how the French are saying we're "occupying" Haiti- it wasn't too long ago the fuckers OWNED Haiti and every person on the island as well....

+1.
I was literally furious when I saw Haitians protesting on the news because the supplies weren't reaching them fast enough. The airport was jammed from people flying in supplies, roads were blocked, and helicopter transport is slow. They literally had thousands of people ready and willing with aid, but logistics of getting to them took time. Rather than protest, why didn't they start clearing the streets of debris so trucks could get through? Why didn't they start organizing to take action to improve the situation, rather than organize to walk around pointlessly? That was ridiculous.

Just to clarify, I know some Haitians were helping to clear roads, working with medical teams, etc. I'm not speaking about them. I am speaking about people that had no right to aid they were getting marching around in circles complaining that the aid givers weren't fast enough.

Those weren't Haitians- you were seeing reruns of footage from New Orleans

[e5wsf]

The thing that always amazed me about Haiti is how do you go about utterly fucking up a Carribean Island? That takes some serious dedication and hard work.

Well put.
I've been weighing donating (under pressure from the female) and I simply cannot see throwing more money to a third world country sitting in one of the most popular tourist destinations in the worlds. The DR is getting it together and Haiti can't?
I'm not an expert on the region but your and SOTB's comments reinforce my beliefs about this situation.
We should be all about helping people in times of need but if your whole existence is a time of need then fuck it.

[DirtyDog0311]

Well put.
I've been weighing donating (under pressure from the female) and I simply cannot see throwing more money to a third world country sitting in one of the most popular tourist destinations in the worlds.

A ten dollar donation that will shut up the squawking of the old lady is money VERY well spent. At least, that's how I look at it. :biggrin:

[e5wsf]

A ten dollar donation that will shut up the squawking of the old lady is money VERY well spent. At least, that's how I look at it. :biggrin:

This is an excellent point.