auto vs bolt sniper rifle

[Yossi]

I have 2 questions:

1- Why is bolt action rifles more accurate then semi automatic sniper rifles?

2- Which type of rifle (bolt or auto) is better suited for close range hostage rescue type sniping.

Thanks in advance

Yossi

[SPYDER1]

Yossi;
The bolt action is more accurate than semi-auto due to lockup. A bolt action locks into the chamber exactly the same every time whereas a semi auto does not have an exacting lock. Also, over time the semiauto bolt will wear down the mating surface of the chamber also throwing off accuracy. There are some new semiautos out now that have excellent lockups & are competitive w/ bolt actions.

To answer your second question, I'm not sure why you would use a sniper rifle for CQB, but if you ended up in that situation I would want a semiauto. Just be sure of your backstop so that the overpenetration does not become a friendly fire incident. A snipers sidearm is a better CQB weapon due to better accuracy w/ open sights than trying to get your optics up & target assessed. Again, I don't see a sniper being involved in CQB except if his hide is compromised during infil or exfil. I great CQB weapon is the HK MP-5 & I'd also recommend the CAR-15, both w/ 3 round burst, not full auto. This should not be carried by a sniper though due to weight & bulkiness. The observer should have a CAR-15 or similar rifle for CQB & backup.

[JY]

Hi Yossie;

Spyder1 is right on about the the reason for the bolt rifle being the weapon of choice for ALL applications.

During a CQB operation the sniper element is in an over watch position providing the assault element with intel using their optics and cover using the their weapons if a shot is open. Cover is also supplied if the op is compromised and to cover the assault teams exfil.

As a point of interest both the spotter and shooter carry M4A1 carbines usually with the 4X32mm ACOG day optic the spotter will also have the M203A1 mounted for heavy support. The SWS is carried in a drag bag/back pack set up until reaching FFP (Final Firing Position). The spotter also has the SR25 available for use when a 7.62X51mm weapon may be better suited as a back up for the team(it's not a well liked weapon in the community as a whole though

As for CQB the MP5's have been replaced by the M4A1's because the MP5 has much more over penetration than the 5.56mm at CQB ranges.Our M4A1s are semi/full, 3 round burst are for reg. forces.During CQB they are used on semi auto and double taps are used with full auto reserved for the exfil "getting the heck outta Dodge" (See the MP5 posting on WEPSNET, ASSAULT RIFLES for more info on this). The MP5 is now replaced by the M4A1 in all units, some remain in the arms rooms but seldom are used.

I've been in this field longer than I like to admit too(old timer now 8( ) and if I can help further please feel free to ask, the only dumb question is the one not asked.

Spent a lot of time in your AO, like the country very much. Take care...Jim

[This message has been edited by JY (edited 11-18-1999).]

[This message has been edited by JY (edited 11-18-1999).]

[Yossi]

Thanks for the information.

I think I didn't explain my self well in my opening post. what I meant was to find out is there an advantage for auto sniper rifles for some scenarios. For example:

1- in counter terrorism, hostage rescues scenarios, the sniper shoot in very close ranges. In this kind of ranges I guess that the difference in accuracy between modern semi auto sniper rifles (hk pag1/MSG 90, Walter 2000, sr25, etc.) and bolt action rifles wouldn't be that big. So wouldn't a semi auto be best in that kind of situation (better for follow up shots)?

2- in an infantry open field combat in regular engagement ranges (up to 700-600 meters) wouldn't the semi auto be best because of the rich, multiple targets envoirment?

And in general speaking, isn't the bolt action sniper rifle only suited for long ranges (800 meters and above) sniping?

I would very much appreciate your comments to this both scenarios.

Thanks in advance

Yossi

[JY]

Hi Yossie;

1) The semi auto sniper rifle is most deffinately a short range weapon 400-600 meters is stretching their envelope, most weapons mount a 4-6X scope. They will have an advantge in a target rich AO where precision is not a factor and collateral damage is not a worry. Police can get away with the semi autos as their max range of engagement seldom exceeds 100 meters.

2) In infantry combat at infantry ranges the semi auto scoped rifle is now being employed as a designated rifleman's weapon. The designated rifleman is NOT a SNIPER his rifle is an improved semi auto version of the standard issue weapon or one mfg'd as a designated rifleman's weapon(Like the Russian practice of 1 man in each squad using the SVD). His duties are to eliminate threats to his squad/platoon at greater range than the iron sighted infantry rifle.

Where the SNIPERS prime duty is the elimnation of very high value targets at long range, gathering of intel, and scouting where his superior skills with the weapon, optics and woodscraft are more important than direct combat. He operates in a 2 man team or with several 2 man teams, at times he may support regular infantry in an over watch position, not as part of the assault.

3) The Sniper (bolt rifle) can be used for any target from point blank to over 1100 meters dependant upon the value of the target. It would be judged on a situation by situation basis,and if it would be wise to risk a highly trained specialist when a designated rifleman could fill the job. As I said the sniper has more duties than just shooting, a majority of his work involves intel/scout work where his skill in stealth, and use of high power optics is an asset to the command and planning of ops and should not be wasted. Prior wars have shown that a mojority of Officers do not understand the proper deployment of snipers and they were totally mis used. Thankfully this is now starting to change with the training of officers (in S2 and G2)being trained in their utilization.

Prior to a short time agao the IDF mainly used the designated riflemen using the M21 with the 6x Nimrod day optic(with the National Police using the Galil 7.62X51mm Sniper rifle). They have recently began training true snipers armed with the M24 Sniper Weapon System.

Hope this answers more fully your questions. As always if I can be of further assistance please feel free to ask. take care...Jim

[Yossi]

Jy

Thanks for clearing that sniper issue.

Do you happen to know with what scope is the idf’s m24 equipped?

Also do you know with which ammo? I heard to wanted to start issue the M118LR 175 g
But are still stuck M852 168 g.

Also, as the “Israeli expert” here, what do think about tom’s Israeli SF articles?
Is the data accurate? What about opsec violation?

Thanks in advance

Yossi

[JY]

Hi Yossie;

Glad to help. The IDF bought the system including the M3A Leupold scope.

Currently the IDF is using the 168 gr M852 made in Israel. I too have heard that they are planning to produce the M118LR as soon as the machinery is purchased..but you know of their funding cuts.There is a possibility that US made ammo will be exchanged in a trade agreement, we do get a lot of military goods from Israel such as electronics and even BDUs(have a set of BDUs 3 color desert made by Isratex, and a Kevlar flak jacket made by Rabintex both Israeli companies and issued to US Army)so it's not a oneway street like most think.

Most of what Tom has on IDF units is open source and known, so I don't feel it violates OPSEC. I know that in Israel the identification of a unit and it's location, or even what unit a shoulder tag is from is a violation of the law. So if you tell "that shoulder tag belongs to the Golani Brgd. and that soldier belongs to seyret Golani. Stationed at----" you can be in trouble. Then too the laws here are getting close to that.

As always, if I can help further please feel free to ask. take care Yossie...Jim

[baboon]

From the new Israeli pictures on this site, it would appear the designated marksman's weapon is now the M16 with scope and bipod.

[JY]

Hi Baboon;

You called that one right, the M4 family is the regular issue IDF weapon now, when fitted with the ACOG 4X32mm day optic it is the spotters/designated rifleman's weapon.

Catch you latter, take care...Jim

[Yossi]

Jy an baboon

Actually, To be exact, the designated marksman’s rifle is the regular m16a2 not the m4 carbine version.

Btw, the idf uses the 'akila' as night vision sight. Any one knows who makes the akila? Litton?

Also, as far as I know the snipers get akilaX6 while designated marksman gets akilaX4, anyone knows the exact models? Any URLs where can get info on the akila?

Btw, Jy, do you found the info in tom’s articles to be correct (technically speaking and otherwise)?

Thanks in advance

Yossi

[JY]

hi Yossie;

The Aquila (eagle) M995 is made by Litton both the 4X and 6X are made for flat top weapons or weapons using the M1913 "Weaver" rail. Current info of the M16A2 is correct but is changing, the 6X will be going on the new M16A3/A4(rile length versions of the M4 system) flat topped rifles with the 4X going to the carbines. The mounting of the M995 on the carry handle of the M16A2 is not satisfactory as it places the operators head to high, this also has a problem when firing over cover the operator can see his target but the bore of the rifle is low still behind cover. This results in the round hitting the cover and not going to the target(and starttling the heck out of the operator).

The AN/PVS 10 Day/Night Optic is also being tested by the IDF this combination scope is for use on the M24 7.62X51mm SWS. It combines a day and night scope into one unit. So far it isn't to popular in the US sniper community, most just want to see it go away. Hopefully the IDF will not want it also.

I think Tom's articles on the IDF SF units are as accurate as can be expected, considering IDF security, some are mis-information but what's available open source wise. The coverage he has is pretty good, can see gaps and half truths but that's to be expected.

Always good to talk with you Yossie, wish you a safe and happy Holiday...Jim

[Yossi]

Jy

Thanks for clearing up this issue. I always thought it was akilla (shark in Russian):-).

I have few more questions:

1- What is the difference between the m16a3 and m16a4? Are the a3 semi/full and the a4 3 burst/full?

2- What is the difference between the M1913 "Weaver" rail and the ARMS slide also placed on the carry handle?

3- Which sight is better the elbit falcon or the ACOG reflex?

4- Who makes the monopod in this following pictures? Litton?
http://www.specialoperations.com/foreign/Israel/Ground_Force/Intelligence_Corps.html


Thanks in advance

Yossi

[Yossi]

P.s. happy holiday to you to, Jy as well as every one else here.

Yossi

[JY]

Hi Yossie;

The M16A3 is a flat top rifle with safe, semi, and burst the M16A4 is safe, semi, and full auto. That's about the only difference.

The ARMS handle mount has the M1913 cross lock cuts just like the flat top(Weaver type) but only in a short length,the MOD 39 has the lower section of rail that sits on top of the handguards and fastens to the carry handle, this lowers the sight so you do not have to raise your head as high as the handle top mount, better set up for the Elbit and ACOG Reflex.

As far as the two reflex sights both are rugged units, the only advatage the ACOG has is it's lighter and of newer technology bot perform very well. I have carried the Elbit in the field and found it to perform very well on the CAR15. As to which is better, I'd have to toss a coin, they are actually of different generations so hard to compare.

The monoculars in the photos are made in Israel I think by ELOP (sp) they also make binocular type goggles.

Take care Yossie, catch you latter...Jim

[Yossi]

Jy

Just to be on the safe side, the slide on the carry handle in this picture (the designated marksman’s picture ) is it M1913 Or ARMS?
http://www.specialoperations.com/foreign/Israel/sniper.htm

Btw, there is a new article in this link, about the Israeli snipers, you might be interested in reading (for some reason it isn’t mentioned in the ‘updates list’.

Thanks in advance

Yossi

[JY]

Hi Yossie;

The base that the base slides onto is the M1913 rail the locking mech on the scope base locks into the slotted rail. Notice how high the head has to be held to use this set up, the ACOG mod M4A1 4X32mm day optic has an attached mount for the flat top rifle M16A3/A4 and the M4A1 family. This mount places the scope much lower, keeping your head from signaling your position.

So yes the actual base that is attached to the carry handle with the thumb nut has the M1913/Weaver cross slots, the base attached to the regular ACOG 4X32mm has what appears to be the double lever quick release ARMS mount attached, this double lever engages the base when the levers are locked.

Newer rifles are in the works for the IDF with either the M16A3 or A4 replacing the A2s in the future. This will allow the use of the newer M4A1 ACOG scope(set up for use with NVG's and emergency tritium illuminated iron sights on top, will post a photo of the new scope on SOCCHAT SWS album)

Catch you latter Yossie, take care...Jim

[Yossi]

Jy

One final question about the slides thing- why do you need both the M1913/Weaver and the ARMS?

I mean, since the m1913 have its own cross-slots why not place the optic directly on it, and not first put the m1913, and above it the ARMS and only then attached the ACOG (like in the IDF's picture)?

Thanks in advance

Yossi

[JY]

Hi Yossie;

The ACOG 4X32mm uses two allen screws to attach it to a mount, the older models such as on the weapon in photo, did not have a mount with them. They could be attached directly to the carry handle using one allen screw or attached to a mount using both. I imagine this one was placed on the ARMS so it could be removed and a night vision scope attached quickly (it also mounted on an ARMS mount). Again this set up is to high, the new rifle A3/A4 will eliminate this problem with it's flat top. Another problem with handle mounts is canting, if the weapon is not held verticle and leans to one side it will cause a miss through an offset similar to the wrong windage applied in the sight with the round going off to the side it is canted to.

Never fear Yossie a better method is on the way, may already be in place(A3/A4). Take care...Jim

Picture of the new ACOG 4X32mm Optic is now posted on SOCCHAT photos, Sniper Weapons systems, JY's toys.

[This message has been edited by JY (edited 12-16-1999).]

[Yossi]

JY -thanks for the picutre in socchat.

so if you have the new acog m4a1 you can put it dirctly on the m1913 rail on the m16a2 and therefor no need for the arms rail? (i know it's for the m4a1 i'm just asking in theory).

thanks again

yossi

[JY]

Hi Yossie;
That is correct, and has the advantage of lowering the operators head. It also negates a lot of minor canting of the weapon. The additional feature of the M4A1 scope is he reticle is Night Vision friendly, and can be used with NVGs from the AN/PVS7B on up.

Take care Yossie, always glad to hear from you...Jim

[This message has been edited by JY (edited 12-21-1999).]