Non-Deployable Soldiers Increasing

[RGR.Montcalm]

I wonder what %age of the Marines are non-deployable?

In OIF 1, if they had a heart beat, they deployed. One of my soldiers couldn't wear a Kevlar, so he gaurded our equipment at Camp PA for the entire year we were there...

It bothers me that the article title uses the term "unfit"; in my mind, "unfit" means a fatass or PT test failure. Sure, there are plenty of those, but there should be a clear distinction between " unfit for duty (injured)", whether physically or psychologically, and "unfit (not capable of doing the job because you can't do push-ups or push aways frrom the table)"

there is no dishonor in getting hurt doing the deed; there is dishonor in trying to avoid deployment because you won't get your ass to a gym...


USA Today
March 3, 2010
Pg. 1

Army Sees Sharp Rise In Unfit Soldiers

Deployments, health issues behind increase

By Gregg Zoroya, USA Today

WASHINGTON — The percentage of soldiers who are unavailable for combat has risen sharply during the past three years from 11% of each brigade in 2007 to 16% this year, Army records show.

Repeated deployments and health problems have driven much of the increase in soldiers listed as non-deployable, said Gen. Peter Chiarelli, the Army vice chief of staff. A brigade has about 3,500 soldiers.

"These are folks who had a knee problem after the first (combat) rotation," he said, "and then, finally, after the third one of humping a rucksack in Afghanistan at 10,000 feet, the doc says, 'I don't care if you're going to deploy again, the fact of the matter is you're going to (stay back until you) get your knee fixed.' "

Nearly 70% of the Army's current roster of 460,000 enlisted soldiers have been to war — half of them once, nearly a third of them twice, 13% with three combat tours and 4% deployed four times.

Although the Army tries to make up for the missing soldiers by adding those from other units, Army records from 2008 show the shortages hurt overall readiness.

When Army brigades deploy, scores of soldiers remain back for many reasons, Army data show.

Some are assigned jobs back home, such as running motor pools or conducting training, while others require additional training and will deploy later. Some are held back to meet the Army's goal of allowing soldiers at least 12 months at home before deploying.

The largest group are soldiers with health problems, Army data show. They are either temporarily sidelined for issues such as rehabilitation or surgery, or are awaiting medical review to determine fitness for remaining in the Army.

Precise numbers for the Army are not available, but between 2006 and 2008, bad backs, strained knees and other ailments increased from 1.4 million cases in the overall military to 1.9 million, according to Defense Department records.

Mental health disorders increased by 67% during that time from 657,144 cases to 1.1 million, those numbers show.

Longer recuperation times between deployments should help soldiers recover, Chiarelli said. Recently, a brigade that had 28 months to rest had only 4% of its soldiers unable to deploy, he said.

At the peak of combat activity in Iraq and Afghanistan in recent years, soldiers had only about 12 months between deployments to train, spend time with their families and recuperate. That has increased to 14 to 15 months on average, with other brigades experiencing longer periods at home.

In addition, the Army is increasing its ranks from about 500,000 when the Iraq war began to about 570,000 next year.

"With the drawdown in Iraq and the growth that we've completed, we're starting to see (time between deployments) stretch out and that's only going to help us," said Gen. George Casey, Army chief of staff.

Non-deployed

Average number of soldiers per combat brigade unavailable to go to war. (percentage of 3,500-soldier brigade)

2007: 391 (11%)

2008: 467 (13%)

2009: 502 (14%)

2010: 567 (16%)

Source: U.S. Army

[RGR.Montcalm]

Related article.

I'd like to also state that none of the folks we took down range that would be non-deployable by the guidelines st today had any of the problems reported in this article.

The guy that couldn't wear the kevlar WANTED to go with us; he wasn't forced.;):biggrin:

USA Today
March 3, 2010
Pg. 4

Report: Army Doctors Assessing Fitness Sometimes In Conflict

By Gregg Zoroya, USA Today

Military doctors in Alaska scrambled to prevent 12 medically unfit soldiers from being sent to the Iraq war in late 2008 despite commanders' attempts to deploy them, an Army investigative report on the incident has concluded.

Doctors told an investigator that one of the soldiers from Fort Wainwright near Fairbanks was pulled off of a plane at the last minute and another suffered from a "cystic brain mass" and was awaiting surgery, according to the report, which was released upon request to USA TODAY.

The probe was ordered after USA TODAY reported last March that soldiers at the installation were forced to deploy despite serious medical problems.

The Fort Wainwright case highlights a broader concern about sending soldiers unfit for duty into battle as eight years of war in Afghanistan and Iraq have taken a toll on troops. Army brigade commanders this year are reporting that 16% of their soldiers are non-deployable, many of those because of health problems, according to Army figures.

The Fort Wainwright investigation found "professional tension" between physicians at the fort who evaluate soldier fitness and doctors with the brigade that went to Iraq, the new report said.

The two groups may see their roles differently, said Col. Gary Wheeler, the report's investigator.

An Army doctor whose job is to assess soldier fitness is a "faithful advocate from a patient perspective," while brigade physicians have a "keen interest in using a soldier to the full extent that is possible, from a medical perspective," Wheeler said.

Brigade leaders can ask their commanders for more soldiers, but some may be reluctant to do so, according to Gen. Peter Chiarelli, the Army's vice chief of staff. "You're always concerned when anything has to come to this headquarters," he said. "I tell them, 'Hey, you don't have to worry about that. You just have to worry about taking care of your soldiers.' "

The Stryker brigade based at Wainwright reported manpower shortages to higher command, said an Army spokesman, Lt. Col. Michael Donnelly. Still, in the weeks after the brigade went to Iraq, 23 soldiers were pulled out of Wainwright and sent to join the Stryker unit "to maintain (the brigade's) personnel strength," an Army spokesman said last year. They were cleared as fit for war, said the spokesman, Lt. Col. Jonathan Allen.

Soldiers left at home because of medical issues were ordered by the brigade to "be deployed regardless of medical conditions," Wheeler was told by soldiers, the Fort Wainwright ombudsman and Army civilian doctors, whose job is to assess soldier fitness.

The names of the physicians and soldiers interviewed for the report were withheld by the military.

The investigation was authorized by Maj. Gen. Patricia Horoho, then-head of the Army's Western Regional Medical Command.

The investigation found four soldiers with health problems who should not have deployed, as well as errors in fitness review procedures and a lack of knowledge about policies, Horoho said.

She said they're fixing the problems.

[SOTB]

Military doctors in Alaska scrambled to prevent 12 medically unfit soldiers from being sent to the Iraq war in late 2008 despite commanders' attempts to deploy them, an Army investigative report on the incident has concluded.

Doctors told an investigator that one of the soldiers from Fort Wainwright near Fairbanks was pulled off of a plane at the last minute and another suffered from a "cystic brain mass" and was awaiting surgery, according to the report, which was released upon request to USA TODAY....Well THAT certainly reads pretty fucked up. I'd be interested in knowing the logic behind this one....

[RGR.Montcalm]

The guy was threatened with court martial if he didn't deploy- unbelieveable.

These particular guys were bullied and harrassed by the CoC; I'm really surprise dthat no one was releived for cause over this issue.

Part of the problem lies in the fact that a medically limiting profile is technically a "recommendation" to the CoC; the Commander has the option to ignore the Doc's advise as long as he is willing to suffer the consequences if the Soldiers is further injured.

Most CoCs are smart enough to follow the advise, but here's the other side of the sword- there are a lot of people that game the system to get out of details, traiining and deployments by using the system.

the unit I work for had a female NCO that had been assigned to my battalion when I was still on AD. Mid 20's, single mother of a child with a congential heart condition and she did have a family care plan. Absolutely incompetent in performing her duties- I was gathering info to conduct a reduction board based on her lack of performance.

She went to the IG to complain that I wouldn't let her appear before a promotion board; when the IG called to ask questions, they received 'the rest of the story' and didn't call back.

Then she asked to be transferred because she felt that the CoC was 'against her'; I refused, so she waited until after I had my retirement ceremony then went to her Congressman. The BC decide that he would rahter let her go than deal with the drama.

Fast forward to last deployment-

She decide she wanted to have some elective oral surgery to change the shape of her jaw line/overbite. Yes, boys and girls, the Army does that.

She did not deploy due to the scheduled date of the surgery and then didn't have it done. she changed her mind about it, so she said.

The CoC told her to pack her bags to deploy and she immediately became pregnant...

Wonder why its a bad idea to put women on subs??:rolleyes:

[DrlSgt]

Welll...CSM. M...if you ever decide to put that uniform back on and stand in line to get your CIF issue..you let me know, I'll come and join you, if it means one of those boys doesn't have to go out there not being 100% and then some...

I'll gladly take my old 43 years old ass back as a damn rifleman somewhere in a line platoon..( no mech for me, I can't even spell Brad-l-e-y without a dictionary!)

What a crime. I wish those CoC would take the time to investigate who can and can't go and make the logical and smart choice.

[Tracy]

I've been on both sides of this situation:

I came off a rather hard deployment and needed to heal up. During my absence, we received a new Team Sergeant who came out of Ranger School as an Instructor. "Gung Ho" and F.I.D.O. were at an all-time high. Sooo, instead of staying behind and doing desk/police call/guard duty for six weeks; I deployed back-to-back and continued to injure myself on top of the injuries. Next, I get a message of a serious family illness. Now I'm a "slacker" and I "set up" the sickness. It took the Group Chaplain and Battalion Commander leaning heavily on the Team Sgt for him to back off. So I redeployed early to take care of things. My next NCOER took a major hit because of it. All because a divorced RI thought my performance on his first team deployment was unsat due to my injuries and family sickness.

Segue forward four years and now I'm the Team Sgt. My senior commo man twisted his knee and was slowly recovering full functionality. We receive a FRAGO for an EDRE (Emergency Deployment Readiness Exercise). So we prep for movement. My medic tells me the Sr. commo is 'marginal', but wants to deploy. So I OK his deployment and drive on. We jump in doing a night, combat equipment, tactical blind drop from 800 feet. The DZ consisted of 1-2 meter tall hummucks at 5500 feet MSL. We were driven into the ground like tentpegs.

My marginal commo man ripped his knee apart. Medic hits him with morphine and I allowed him to carry his 80-pound rucksack, by the first security halt he was toast. The morphine stopped working for him. So we medevac'd him and split up the PSC-3 comm system with the rest of us. He never served on another A-Team again. The lesson I learned the hard way is that leaders at ALL levels should not allow Soldiers to deploy that are 'marginal' in any aspect. I was damned lucky it didn't happen on a real-world operation.

You play a very dangerous game by forcing or 'punking' Soldiers into something like a combat deployment. It's easier to plan with a gap in the ranks, than being fully manned up with questionable performers. If the non-deployed personnel are ghosting, the system can handle them if the CoC puts effort into it.

Leaders: If you focus on the short-term objectives and your OER (or NCOER), you'll die by them.

[RGR.Montcalm]

Steel on target, Tracy!

Luckily, the guy I took to Kuwait wasn't in any danger of re-injuring himself nor did he need any medical care beyond what was there.

I used to tell Soldiers that profiles were there for a reason- just took getting pretty banged up myself to really understand...

DrlSgt, I'd gladly trade the desk and computer for a ruck and some webgear anyday-

the only thing that holds me back from taking a job downrange is my granddaughter.

She needs a positive male influence in her life (even if it is only me;):biggrin:) and I can't imagine missing more of her life than necessary.

[btq96r]

The lesson I learned the hard way is that leaders at ALL levels should not allow Soldiers to deploy that are 'marginal' in any aspect.

Tracy...helluva tale to share with the group. I hope someone still on AD or reserve mobilizing sometime can read that and learn. This issue is a 100% leader responsibility.

IMO, this issue is just another symptom of the wear and tear our force is undergoing as a result of these multiple deployments. With Iraq deployments winding down (hopefully), my wish is that the Soldiers who have legitimate conditions will get them attended to without having guilt trips from either themselves or someone in their unit. This is going to be critical to keeping the right people around for the major reset the Army is going to need after almost a decade at war.

[Darren]

One reason for this, as I saw with my own steely eyes is the civilian physicians at mob station. We has a SPC who had been nursing a sprained thumb for a few weeks. As I was standing behind him, the contract Dr. asked him if he wanted to deploy. His answer? "No, not really." She said, "Fine" and he went back to Chicago. Company CDR was furious because this same SPC had pulled the same stunt 2 years prior. I got REFRAD because of a hearing loss that I was allowed to deploy with last time.

We lost around 20 personnel because of this stuff.

[heavyguns1/1]

When did malingering stop being a crime?

[RGR.Montcalm]

When did malingering stop being a crime?

It hasn't, but its damned hard to prove.

There has to be an established pattern with questionable reasons for lost work time/ profiles/ quarters.

In my experience, it's usually the medics that bring it to the CoC's attention...

[Looon]

It's been 20 years, but I was on both sides of the issue AT THE SAME TIME.

I got hurt in the train up for OJC and was in a cast when the word came down. Initially, I was told I could cut off my cast and go. Then they changed their mind and said NO.

I waited until the birds left, then made my own way to the conflict. I went and did the deed anyway.

After coming back to the states after it was all over, I was still in bad shape and fucked up. My platoon CoC wouldn't allow me time to heal properly, therefore I still had to PT to standard and go to the field.:rolleyes:

[SOTB]

I've been on both sides of this situation....Ditto, although in my case, my "injuries" were far less serious than yours. My other side of the situation was pretty bad, though.

On the "injury" side, I had just returned from Ranger School, maybe a week back or so, and the new SNCO in charge of reenlistments in the FR company I was in sought me out and told me that I had to take a PT test for some issue -- I think I had already reenlisted, and somehow on his paperwork, I had not done a PFT (Marine Corps PT test). I don't remember if I had done one or not, maybe I hadn't. But I explained to him that I would be glad to run his PFT, but that I wasn't really sure I was going to pull off a decent score -- I had just returned from RS the week before. Our hero SSgt said to me; "Bullshit. No Army school is going to cause a Marine who has never run less than a 300 PFT since bootcamp (at that time, for the past 4 years) to drop his score. And if you drop your score, I am going to have to report this to the 1st Sgt." I smiled and told him that it was nice to see that the company had decided to finally put solid leadership in the S-Shops, we in the platoons had been really hoping things would change. I think he caught my sarcasm, but he didn't say anything. Fast forward about 4 hours, I ran the PFT and I think I BARELY pulled off a 1st Class PFT score. Like a couple of points or so. Naturally he went to my Platoon Sgt (I don't think my platoon had a Platoon Ldr at that time) to inform him that one of his TLs was a fucking slug and disgrace to the Corps. I think my Plt Sgt at that time was either Tommy T or Dave H - I can't remember. I do know that whoever it was (I wasn't present), told this SSgt, in front of the CO and 1st Sgt, that he didn't know what the fuck he was talking about and that he should probably keep his nose focused on admin issues, and let the real FR Marines to their business. So I was lucky to have a CoC who not only was supportive, but proactive. FWIW, 2-3 months later I ran another PFT, and of course knocked out a 300 score.

Later in life, roughly 16 years, I had a group of guys who were deployed against a problem, and they were doing very well. In fact, they were doing so well, they had completely eradicated the problem and had made a pact to keep the perfect score they had for 30 days. The problem was that I had made a policy change upon taking over this org, that no one could be deployed more than 2 weeks. There were a variety of reasons for this, it was pretty dangerous (I lost a total of about 10 guys over 3+ years in this place), deployments of these people had previously been abusive of the employees and I wanted to completely reverse that, the toll upon their families was unfair and difficult, and I felt that the deployment requirements were so stressful that one would lose his "edge" at about 15 days and that it made sense to swap people out. But as things happen, the guys asked their unit commander to get me to allow them to stay on assignment and show the rest of the org that a perfect score was possible. I relented. At roughly the 28-day mark, I got a phone call that the daughter of one of my guys was in the hospital and in pretty bad shape. We immediately pulled this guy out of his location and we rushed him to the hospital. The little girl (5 y/o, I think), died 2 days later. She died of anemia. What does this have to do with me? I've researched the fuck out of anemia since then, and although I still find some of the illness confusing -- especially the super-severe part, it is my conclusion that I am the one responsible for her death. See, this employee of mine was a pretty sharp dude -- common sense and simply intelligent as well. His wife, OTOH, well -- not so much. VERY nice woman, not the same as my employee. Anemia has symptoms. I believe that my guy would have detected these symptoms early enough to have gotten her turned around -- certainly in time to have gotten her a blood transfusion (some of the cause, I believe to be associated with the initial diagnosis, which as soon as I thought was bullshit -- I ordered her moved to a better hospital, who made the correct diagnosis, but too late). So, not a malingerer, and not even a guy who was injured, but I violated my own deployment policy -- against my better judgement (I had said no, twice before). My incompetence as a leader was a primary cause of her death. I really, REALLY, hope there isn't a God. 'Cause if there is, he is probably as pissed at me, as I am at him (And certainly as I am at myself -- I mean, I've lost men -- but a child? Fucking unacceptable). Bottom line, deployment policies should be followed.

Mis dos centavos....

[KidA]

Knew my share of malingerers who'd fake and exaggerate any injury to get off any deployment - even something as cake as an Abn Op.

However the worst "leader" and I use that term loosely was a SSG Bailey. This guy was just a dick and I hope he eventually got put out of the Army, after being reduced to PV2. He was just an asshole and hated everyone and in return everyone hated him. He confined a guy to the barracks for two weeks for being late to formation, for having diarreah.

So a guy in our Plt has a bad tooth. We're also deploying that evening. He hits sick call in the morning and is told - yep, abscessed but can't get him into the dentist until late that afternoon. Here's some Ranger Candy, go home, rest, come back at 1700.

Kid comes back, Bailey reads the note from Sick Call, tells kid he has to deploy. Why? Because clearly if it was bad enough they would have taken him right then and there and he's not going to explain to the First Sergeant why his platoon isn't going to deploy at 100% (and this was a week's long training deployment out in the desert of Ft. Bliss) and we were flying out and jumping in.

So throughout the day we're all getting ready, everyone's telling the kid to go up the CoC, he's afraid, blah blah, get out to Green Ramp, get him chuted up and by now his face is swole up like a balloon on one side...Plt Sgt notices it, asks what's wrong, gets the explanation and proceeds to rip Bailey a new asshole in front of God, the chutes, the AF, and everyone within hearing distance. Not only did Bailey fail to take care of a troop in his charge, he was more concerned with himself than the mission, the pain the troop was in, deploying a troop with an abcessed tooth that could have exploded due to the pressure changes in the aircraft, and so on and so on and so on.

I changed units before I ever heard what happened to Bailey but I really hope he was busted and thrown out (this was in the era of the pink slips, too). I hope he's a failed festering piece of shit, drunk living in an unheated trailer waiting to die from liver disease.

And that's just one example of how he was a failure at leadership and taking care of troops...

[MPCOA]

When did malingering stop being a crime?

Over a decade in, different services and I have yet to ever see this successfully charged.

[Purple36]

Ditto, although in my case, my "injuries" were far less serious than yours. My other side of the situation was pretty bad, though.

On the "injury" side, I had just returned from Ranger School, maybe a week back or so, and the new SNCO in charge of reenlistments in the FR company I was in sought me out and told me that I had to take a PT test for some issue -- I think I had already reenlisted, and somehow on his paperwork, I had not done a PFT (Marine Corps PT test). I don't remember if I had done one or not, maybe I hadn't. But I explained to him that I would be glad to run his PFT, but that I wasn't really sure I was going to pull off a decent score -- I had just returned from RS the week before. Our hero SSgt said to me; "Bullshit. No Army school is going to cause a Marine who has never run less than a 300 PFT since bootcamp (at that time, for the past 4 years) to drop his score. And if you drop your score, I am going to have to report this to the 1st Sgt." I smiled and told him that it was nice to see that the company had decided to finally put solid leadership in the S-Shops, we in the platoons had been really hoping things would change. I think he caught my sarcasm, but he didn't say anything. Fast forward about 4 hours, I ran the PFT and I think I BARELY pulled off a 1st Class PFT score. Like a couple of points or so. Naturally he went to my Platoon Sgt (I don't think my platoon had a Platoon Ldr at that time) to inform him that one of his TLs was a fucking slug and disgrace to the Corps. I think my Plt Sgt at that time was either Tommy T or Dave H - I can't remember. I do know that whoever it was (I wasn't present), told this SSgt, in front of the CO and 1st Sgt, that he didn't know what the fuck he was talking about and that he should probably keep his nose focused on admin issues, and let the real FR Marines to their business. So I was lucky to have a CoC who not only was supportive, but proactive. FWIW, 2-3 months later I ran another PFT, and of course knocked out a 300 score.

Later in life, roughly 16 years, I had a group of guys who were deployed against a problem, and they were doing very well. In fact, they were doing so well, they had completely eradicated the problem and had made a pact to keep the perfect score they had for 30 days. The problem was that I had made a policy change upon taking over this org, that no one could be deployed more than 2 weeks. There were a variety of reasons for this, it was pretty dangerous (I lost a total of about 10 guys over 3+ years in this place), deployments of these people had previously been abusive of the employees and I wanted to completely reverse that, the toll upon their families was unfair and difficult, and I felt that the deployment requirements were so stressful that one would lose his "edge" at about 15 days and that it made sense to swap people out. But as things happen, the guys asked their unit commander to get me to allow them to stay on assignment and show the rest of the org that a perfect score was possible. I relented. At roughly the 28-day mark, I got a phone call that the daughter of one of my guys was in the hospital and in pretty bad shape. We immediately pulled this guy out of his location and we rushed him to the hospital. The little girl (5 y/o, I think), died 2 days later. She died of anemia. What does this have to do with me? I've researched the fuck out of anemia since then, and although I still find some of the illness confusing -- especially the super-severe part, it is my conclusion that I am the one responsible for her death. See, this employee of mine was a pretty sharp dude -- common sense and simply intelligent as well. His wife, OTOH, well -- not so much. VERY nice woman, not the same as my employee. Anemia has symptoms. I believe that my guy would have detected these symptoms early enough to have gotten her turned around -- certainly in time to have gotten her a blood transfusion (some of the cause, I believe to be associated with the initial diagnosis, which as soon as I thought was bullshit -- I ordered her moved to a better hospital, who made the correct diagnosis, but too late). So, not a malingerer, and not even a guy who was injured, but I violated my own deployment policy -- against my better judgement (I had said no, twice before). My incompetence as a leader was a primary cause of her death. I really, REALLY, hope there isn't a God. 'Cause if there is, he is probably as pissed at me, as I am at him (And certainly as I am at myself -- I mean, I've lost men -- but a child? Fucking unacceptable). Bottom line, deployment policies should be followed.

Mis dos centavos....

SOTB,

You brought up an excellent point about trusting your judgement. Without going into God stuff, may I share my opinion: You were/are not a psychic...you don't know what might have happened. You are not responsible for the child's death. I can see why you might hold yourself to that standard. But I don't think anyone here would. Now if he told you his kid was sick and you refused to let him go home...that would be another story.

[Wes]

Per the OPORD I received I'm "Not Allowed" to show up at SRP in two weeks because I am a "H3"(Hearing Class 3). Yeah, still going to SRP. My MEDPROS shows me Green and deployable. The Army needs to figure out what the hell they want to label as "Non-deployable".

[Baildog]

We had 3 guys who had to get waivers for H3. They all did, though. We were forewarned not to say boo to the civ docs at mob station, because they'd REFRAD you at the drop of a hat.

[Wes]

We had 3 guys who had to get waivers for H3. They all did, though. We were forewarned not to say boo to the civ docs at mob station, because they'd REFRAD you at the drop of a hat.

My PUHLES on MEDPROS shows me 113111. Yet it is still "Green". When I go to the hearing section of it: "Hearing Category NA". I'm not going to bring it up at SRP, but I do have to go through the hearing test station. We'll see how it goes. I was surprised at the OPORD stating specifically "Do NOT send anyone with a Category 3 profile to SRP".

[GPC]

What burned me were the ones who dodge a deployment.
Then get promoted or get Air Asault school.This was in the Guard and was one of the reasons I got out.
I believe if one is Non-deployable and it is a permanent profile they should be discharged.They were going to board me for hearing so I got out before they could.As for fat boys being non-deployable that is BS.PT em til they drop.