Why no Winchester Sniper Rifles

[winshrpstr]

Why are there no Winchester sniper rifles? I know Gunny Hathcock era sinpers used M70's for a while but why the switch to Remington. The Winchester Action is defintly a better action.

[This message has been edited by winshrpstr (edited 02-25-2001).]

[Sharky]

I asked the same question once. The answer I got was that winchester model 70 actions are a lot harder to bed. As to whether it's a better action? I would just say that is debatable. I've shot both. I prefer the Remington personally. Probably because that what I was trained with from the beginning.

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F.I.D.O.

[winshrpstr]

you won't believe the flames I got from numbskulls on this already. I would like to hear from some folks who have some real experience. I have both a Rem M700 VSS and a Winchester M70 HV in a McMillian Sharpshooter Stock. I like the Winchester better. They are both .308. The Win has been flutted. The Win has just shot better from day one.

[JY]

Sharky got the right answer, the flat bottom of the Winchester's receiver is much harder to bed correctly. But, with the current trend to the aluminum bedding blocks this shouldn't be a problem any longer. The Remington's round receiver makes the use of the V block very easy and accurate, by torquing the receiver down into it you get a very stable, centered set up.

As to which action is better, the Winchester's bolt is a much better design with easy take down of the striker for cleaning and ice removal. The flat based action is said to be more flexible than Remington's tubular design so the Rem. should be more accurate at least design wise. Does it translate to actual use, I don't think enough for the average user to notice.

I personally own more Mod.70's than 700's, and have shot the 70 as a sniper weapon in .30-06 in the "olde" days. I would have to say function wise it's a toss up both are excellent rifles. But design wise the Rem is much easier and cheaper to bed, this is the biggest reason it's the current choice for building sws's today.

Take care...Jim

[Sharky]

Originally posted by winshrpstr:
I would like to hear from some folks who have some real experience.

Uhhhhhh...... I'm sorry. I'll go try to find someone who has some actual experience. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif



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F.I.D.O.

[winshrpstr]

Sharky that wasnt meant for you, but the numbskulls who replied to me offline.

[RifleMaster]

Winsharpstr,

I've owned, shot, and built accurate Remington and Winchester high power rifles for over thirty years. I've been focused primarily on accuracy the last twenty years.

I think they're about equal when considering building an accurate rifle. The Remington separate recoil lug is a big disadvantage. Some Gunsmiths drill and pin the lug to the receiver.

I believe the jury is still out on the Rem. bedding blocks. They seem to be OK if you want to mass produce a easily serviceable above average accuracy rifle. However, I believe the top Rem. shooters do not use them because they want the best accuracy.

Have to go to work! More later.

Keep Holding'em Hard!

Carl

[Sharky]

I withdraw my comment.

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F.I.D.O.

[RifleMaster]

JY and Sharky are both correct in their comments. It seems we fall into the trap of thinking that one or another design feature makes or breaks accuracy. I've seen several good shooters charge off to get the latest accuracy wiggit because someone used it and shot well. My years in Engineering and product development have made me very suspicious. I have to be convinced with hard data!

I believe both the Remington and Winchester receivers have design features that can inhance accuracy. But, as we know, the receiver alone doesn't determine a rifle's accuracy.

As far as flextural strength, the receiver with the greater mass/metal away from the bending axis will have the greater strength. Assuming the same strength of material/metal.

Barrels are fluted to make them lighter (weigh less) period. When the metal is cut away the barrel loses bending strength because there is less mass/metal away from its flextural axis (bore). Therefore, fluting weekens a barrel and makes it less accurate.

Have to take my wife to the store!!!!!
I'm back.

Basically, to obtain the best accuracy out of either receiver, the barrel bore must be closely fitted to the bolt channel, and the bolt face and lugs must mate evenly and perpendicular to the bore. This will minimize barrel whip.

Another way of minimizing non-uniform barrel whip (rifle inaccuracy) is to use cases that have uniform wall thicknesses. Uniform case wall thicknesses also reduce the banana effect of cases and the uneven tipping of bullets as they enter a barrel's rifling. Then we could consider the powder burn rate, powder density within the case, and primer ignition and .... And on and on it goes.

Therefore, how can anyone claim or prove one receiver is better than another when there are so many variables?

I agree with Jim. Most GOOD shooters can't tell the accuracy difference between Remington and Winchester receivers!

Keep Holding'em Hard!

Carl

PS: Brownells is no longer distributing my Winchester Model 70 firing pin disassembly tool. Too low of volume!

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 02-26-2001).]

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 02-27-2001).]

[winshrpstr]

Well, thank you RifleMaster, you have educated me. I thought becuse several of the Custom gunmakers (H&S, and Dakota) were copying the Winchester actions or rather some of the features on Win actions the they saw something Remington didnt.

[Linus]

Wow, Carl! You sure ain't no webcrawler!!!

Almost all your replies contain something along the line of "Well, basically it's like this...oh, gotta go!" You're one bizzy dude!

Nevertheless, thank you for all your enlightening posts! In true Master style you shepherd the blind through the darkness into the light! Eventually. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

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Honestas supra omnis

[RifleMaster]

Winshrpstr and Linus,

I hope my comments and opinions helped!

I'm sure there are a lot of shooters that do not agree with me in several areas. If we were discussing the pros and cons of a particular receiver design, I would ask them if their opinion was based on known precision gunsmithing techniques or personal shooter preference.

I have built and shot more Model 70's than Model 700's in competition where accuracy is the goal. However, Model 700's can be made to shoot as good, if not better!

I believe the Model 700 receivers are machined to closer tolerances. This makes it easier to "blueprint" like a racing engine. It does not mean a Model 70 receiver can not be blueprinted to the same precision.

There are many tactical shooters on this forum that can speak from many years of field experience. I can not. When Trigger50, Gary, Gunny Hicks, JY, and others comment I listen!!

Keep Holding'em Hard!

Carl



[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 02-28-2001).]