How heavy does a SWS need to be?

[medicjim]

With production rifles being fielded in weights approaching 20 lbs. the question begs asking... why do you need such a heavy rifle?

The bull barrel and large mass are an advantage while training and firing many, many shots over the course of a day... but in a one shot, one kill setting, why not employ a 10 lb rifle with a modest taper?

This question originally asked by another poster on snipercountry.com... I found the question interesting and though perhaps the folks that frequent this board might shed a different perspective...

fire away, I doubt if there is one answer to the question..

regards.

[This message has been edited by medicjim (edited 03-01-2001).]

[tactical]

A heavy sniper rifle is easier to shoot with because it takes more screw up on your part to move the sites. Basically it is more stable. That is a short answer.

Now if you are good you can get by with a lighter weight and still shot as well. The better you get the lighter the rifle can be. Me I like the rifle to be in that 9-10lbs range without scope, if I have to carry it and as heavy as I can stand if I just shoot it.

Mike

[RifleMaster]

Medicjim,

With everything else equal, a bull barrel will reduce barrel whip when a rifle is fired. A bull barrel will whip/flex less and be more accurate because it is has a greater strength to resist the forces of a fired round. It is stronger because it has more metal away from its flexural axis (bore).

This additional strength is an advantage if firing one or any number of rounds. And, of course the accuracy improvement is more significant at longer ranges.

I hope this helps!

Carl



[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 03-02-2001).]

[medicjim]

Should the US military be buying very heavy rifles for their highly trained, dedicated snipers.

They (the snipers) are good at what they do and my impression is that they are not intended to fire many lethal shots at once...more of a one shot, one kill type of thing..

So doesn't a lighter rifle make more sense?

I don't have an opinion, I'm trying to form one based on other's input.

[This message has been edited by medicjim (edited 03-02-2001).]

[RifleMaster]

medicjim,

Your question stated another way: Should the US Army (or any tactical org.) be buying heavy accurate rifles or light less accurate rifles for their skilled shooters?

I think the shooters would choose the heavy more accurate rifles when their lives or the lives of others were on the line.

Carl

[tactical]

Carl, do you think my 9-10lbs rifle alone weight is too light? I know alot of guys have used the 12-14lbs without sites but I like the 9-10 better. What do you think?

Mike

[RifleMaster]

Hi Mike!

I'm certain that with everything else equal, a heavy bull barrel will whip/flex less than a lighter smaller diameter barrel. Less whip/deflection results in better accuracy. I can post the stress analysis equations if they would help.

An exception would be the new composite barrels that are lighter and have comparable flexural strength. Medicjim asked about heavy bull barrels, not composite barrels.

Do you think that smaller diameter lighter barrels are more accurate than bull barrels?

Carl

[USMCSNIPERONE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by medicjim:
[B]With production rifles being fielded in weights approaching 20 lbs. the question begs asking... why do you need such a heavy rifle?

medicjim We did alot of testing at S/S school in our off time.One of those tests was trying to find outhow many rounds it would take to heat up the barrel enough to change the point of impact.WE did this at 100 yrds I shot the rifle as fast as I could aquire and squeeze and another Inst.stuffed rnds. in the chamber for me it shot half min.group up to the 27 round then it suddenly when to 1in for the next 5 or 6 . then it started to shoot back and forth from one side of the group to the other.we stopped at 40 but at no time did the group get over 1 1/2. we decided that there was no way the Sniper could do this on his own without someone loading for him. Like the Lady said "bigger is better" hope this helps. SEMPER FI SNIPER ONE

[tactical]

Carl, mine was really a question. I just wanted your opinion you obviously have agreat deal of experience and wanted to know what you have seen. No slag my friend.

I used to think the bigger the better but then a riflesmith named Jerry Rice, of NorCal Precision, explanded the reason for groups opening up being the action and bbl threads being not a perfect match. He explanined as the two different pieces expand and touch at different places the groups would wander like having pressure points in the bbl/action fit. He takes a great deal of time getting this right when he works over a rifle.

He made a couple of rifles for me and I have had great luck with rifles in the 9-10lbs (without sites)range not having the groups open up as I used to have with M24 and PSS's.

I would be every skeptical for the same reasons you are about lighter bbls, plus something less than 9lbs seems not to settle as well as a 9-10lbs rifle.

Now when I know I dont have to carry the thing I want it as heavy as can be because no doubht it takes more to screw up with a heavy rifle than a light one.

On a Rice built rifle I have shot fifty rounds and had the groups not open up. By the way the guys that want to try this. Adjust your sites so you dont hit point of aim or your aim point will bbe gone and you will open the groups because of this. I just throw the adjustments about three minutes so I dont get freaked by watching the hits miss.

[Sharky]

Originally posted by tactical:
I just throw the adjustments about three minutes so I dont get freaked by watching the hits miss.

I thought you'd be used to it by now. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

Couldn't resist.



------------------
F.I.D.O.

[USMCSNIPERONE]

Tactical, Thats why you shoot the test at 100 yrds so theres only one hole to look at!! just havin fun with ya Sniper 1

[RifleMaster]

Hi Mike!

My opinion is that if a heavy match grade barrel and a smaller diameter lighter match grade barrel were installed to the same precision, on identical receivers having bolts fitted identically, and identical ammunition was used; the heavy barrel would be more accurate. It would be more accurate because of its greater flexural strength.

I understand that the two lighter barreled rifles built by Mr. Jerry Rice (Precision Gunsmith) are as accurate or more accurate (shooting M852 or M118 match ammo) than heavier barreled Rem. M700's and PSS's. One explanation could be that Mr. Rice's rifles have match chambers, i.e., chambers that have throats sized for match ammo. Remington, because of liability concerns, chamber their rifles with long free bores. Rifles shoot more accurate when the bullets do not have to jump a long distance before entering the rifling. For a better description of Remington bullet jump see: www.snipercountry.com/700pss.htm (http://www.snipercountry.com/700pss.htm)

For maximum accuracy, I chamber my rifles using custom reamers (custom diameters and lead angle) and like to seat my bullets .005" to .010" off the rifling. Some times, I soft-seat bullets so that when they are chambered the rifling pushes the bullets back within the case necks. The bullets are pushed back, but touching the rifling and there is no jump for maximum accuracy. It is UNSAFE to do this in semi-autos!

Therefore, if everything else were equal, the two rifles that Mr. Rice built for you could be more accurate with properly fit heavier barrels.

Just my opinion, based on about twenty years of shooting and gunsmithing experience.

Take care my friend .... Carl

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 03-04-2001).]

[tactical]

Carl, I understand what you are saying and agree. When I talk of light bbls I mean the same diameter as a PSS. I find that to be the lightest bbl I use. With that size bbl I get a 9lbs rifle without the sites. That seems to be a good balance of enough weight without killing me to carry of distance.

While we are at it what do you think of fluted bbls?

Thanks for the info. I always enjoy listening to folks that have a great deal of experience.

By the way before Rice I would never use a flutted bbl, because it didn't seem Remington could make a round chamber let along get flutes perfectly made. I thought they would mess up the acc. so I stayed away. I now have both and other than picking up crap in the field the flutes dont seem to hurt the group size.

Mike