SOTG Instructors?

[GummyBear0311]

I have taken 2 courses in SOTG, the security element course and TRAP course. I always assumed the instructors were Recon Marines that taught other courses. From reading in the USMC site, with 3rd SOTG, Marines went to coxswain operator and scout swimmer course to become insturctors. With CQB, urban recon, or sniper course, the instructors were Recon Marines, which i believed falls of the special missios branch.


With the exception of the special missions branch, what background does the SOTG instructors have?

To be an instructor, i always assume you have to go to a course then go back to your unit and do a couple of training cycles/deployments. Is the 3rd SOTG an exception to this?

Did SOTG started new courses after 9/11-OIF 2003? I read about the Raid Leaders Course. Didn't hear about that course back in the 90's.

[SOTB]

Can you give a link to the site you are referring to (or the specific article)?

My info is dated, but some of the very first SOTG instructors in the Corps did NOT have a raccoon background -- hell, some of those guys had not even completed a MEUSOC pump. But back in that time, MEUSOCs were new and it is worth mentioning that the Corps actually spent some money on these new instructors.

I have no idea as to the RLC you mention -- I left while it was still the 80's (well, I got out in 90)....

[GummyBear0311]

Can you give a link to the site you are referring to (or the specific article)?

My info is dated, but some of the very first SOTG instructors in the Corps did NOT have a raccoon background -- hell, some of those guys had not even completed a MEUSOC pump. But back in that time, MEUSOCs were new and it is worth mentioning that the Corps actually spent some money on these new instructors.

I have no idea as to the RLC you mention -- I left while it was still the 80's (well, I got out in 90)....

I read the article again on USMC.MIL, i made a mistake. I apologized. On the story about coxswain course, it mentioned that 2 were attending to be instructors, 1 as recon background and the other infantry.
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Regarding the instructors, what background do they have to be qualified to be in SOTG?

[CarnageWhiskey]

Regarding the instructors, what background do they have to be qualified to be in SOTG?

Ahh, the Society of Tough Guys.

Last SOTG package I did was in 2005.
The only ricky recon instructors were those who dealt with the Recon element.
Every instructor/assessor we had with us was a regular infantry guy.
Can't comment on selection of instructors though.

Yes, Raid Leaders Course was standard for most of the NCO's in the battalion if you were just starting a workup.
Quick (only a week long) but excellent course.

Hell, my info is 5 years old so it's probably outdated as well.

[Silverbullet]

SOTG has changed greatly since the inception of MarSoc.

During the time I ran the Special missions Branch in the 90's, I only had Recon guys filling the instructor line numbers. I had a 18 man cadre. The line numbers were 8654 line numbers for a reason. I picked and requested orders on the exact person I wanted to work in the branch. I did not take a dude unless he had 2 deployments under his belt. Most of those were former Force Recon members with a few Recon Bn guys working the R/S section. All my GySgt's and section leaders were former Force Recon due to the longevity of their time in service and bouncing from Recon Bn to Force and vice a versa. All of these instructors attended the instructor management crse either at the USMC school house or the Army one. They spent the first cycle as an AI before being able to act as a primary instructor.

I know the Mountain Branch of SOTG did not have Recon guys since the background required was Bridgeport instructor type stuff. The Raids Branch did not have many former recon guys either. They were mostly made up of grunts who had been through a few deployments in small boat companies. Nothing wrong with that.The crses focused mostly on infantry raid packages so having an infantry guy running them was proper.

[GummyBear0311]

Thanks for the replies gent.

I assumed the instructors have a Force Recon/Division Recon backgrounds cuz of the "special operation" in SOTG.

If you reenlist, can you choose to be assign to SOTG or the USMC just decide it for you?

How long is the usual tour in SOTG? Are the instructors for the security element course infantry(who have taken the course) or Force Recon? How many branch in SOTG?

As i said before, i have taken 2 courses in SOTG and also did MWTC summer package. The security elment course was the best cuz it taught me combat markmanship. Our platoon did it only 1 week. Don't know the reason but another plaoon from boat company got the traile job. Rumour has it that cuz they were boats and easier to train them in helo. Our platoon was in helo company and takes time to train in boats. The sam thing happen on the next traiing cycle/MEU. Our platoon went to the pool to qualify everybody as 2nd class or above, to improve our swim class. Everybody at least qualify as 2nd class. The platoon commander even plan to have us train for a week in boats. Not necesarrily as proficient as boats company cuz you hae to go to coxswain course, scout swimmer course, and boat raid course. But to show the platoon a fighting chance to land the trailer platoon job. But after the swim qual, they still gave it to a boat platoon. After that, we were designated as TRAP platoon and went to the course.

[Silverbullet]

If you reenlist, can you choose to be assign to SOTG or the USMC just decide it for you?



I have no idea how it is done now. II MEF SOTG was a separate cmd with it's own MCC years back. With MarSoc around I don't see how this could still be possible or even why it would rate a Col as CO now. The other 2 SOTG's were under the respective MEF G3's since they were about half the size of II MEF SOTG.

I suggest you go talk to the MSgt running the place and see if they have line numbers open and if he would help you with orders. I know the mountain branch SNCOIC did the same thing I did and asked for new instructors by name. You could end up hitting a wall trying to get the monitor to cut you orders without knowing what billets are open.

[GummyBear0311]

When my platoon went to security element course, there were some intel Marines too. At the dynamic assault course in Okinawa, there were intel attending the course too. Any reasons for the intel guys going thru the cqb course? link:http://www.marines.mil/unit/mcbbutler/Pages/2006/Recon%20Marines%20take%20aim%20at%20weapons%20prof iciency.aspx

And in 3rd SOTG's scout swimmer course, a warehouse clerk and aviation information specialist attended the course. So some courses are open to non-infantry ehttp://www.marines.mil/unit/mcbbutler/Pages/AnotherdayatthebeachonOkinawaasMarinestraintobecom escoutswimmers.aspxven though they might nevery use those skills they learn while in the Marines? link:

[GummyBear0311]

Messed up on the 2nd link, here it is: http://www.marines.mil/unit/mcbbutler/Pages/AnotherdayatthebeachonOkinawaasMarinestraintobecom escoutswimmers.aspx

[Silverbullet]

When my platoon went to security element course, there were some intel Marines too. At the dynamic assault course in Okinawa, there were intel attending the course too. Any reasons for the intel guys going thru the cqb course? link:http://www.marines.mil/unit/mcbbutler/Pages/2006/Recon%20Marines%20take%20aim%20at%20weapons%20prof iciency.aspx



There is no reason for the intell guys going through the course.

This is something I fought. The premise is that they may be needed to exploit an objective. I understand that but that doesn't mean they need to attend the crse and be kitted out like the assault element. They don't even need to come into the site until it's secure. It was always something pushed by those who never were in the unit.

[chip8541]

I can speak about Assault Climbers, and a MWTC summer package is insufficient for placement. I do know guys who have got orders there and went through Summer and Winter Mountain Leader as soon as they got there and the seasons came up. They came up to Bridgeport all the time. Like SB said they are going to prefer a former MWTC guy over someone without the MLC quals, as it takes a while to become qualed. This might have changed, im going off of 3 yrs ago. As far as at least R/S and Urban Sniper, all ive seen there are FR, Battalion Recon, with a smattering or Battalion Snipers. Of course this is 3 yrs recent, probably changed alot.

[SOTB]

Of course this is 3 yrs recent, probably changed alot.Dude, you know the exact words to make some of us feel OLD....:frown::biggrin:

[chip8541]

Dude, you know the exact words to make some of us feel OLD....:frown::biggrin:

You know the exact words to make me feel like a shower shoe:biggrin:

[freds4]

I have no idea how it is done now.


I have been working for SOTG as a contractor for the past 3 1/2 years here at Pendleton. When we started up, SMTB was training the MarSoc Marines and they were all active-dity Marine instructors, just like normal. We were running STB (Special Training Branch) and were training Bn Recon, Snipers, RRT and a few Intel types on Urban R&S, Urban Sniper and CQB and also doing what we called WFT (Weapons Familiarization Training) for some cats and dogs getting ready to deploy.
Now SMTB has been disbanded, as MarSoc training is all internal, and STB has taken over training Force in their full CQB package, including VBSS. GOPLAT training will be next. At the same time we are also still training Bn Recon, Snipers, RRT in the aforementioned courses. The plan was for us contractors to run these courses for 1 to 3 years and then be replaced by active-duty Marines once again but the demand for Recon Marines and the inability to create them at a cyclic rate has prevented that from happening.
With very few exceptions (Myself being one of them) all of the instructors on our staff are former Force Recon Marines with stellar records and our top guy is a retrired Colonel and 1st Force C.O.

[GummyBear0311]

There is no reason for the intell guys going through the course.

This is something I fought. The premise is that they may be needed to exploit an objective. I understand that but that doesn't mean they need to attend the crse and be kitted out like the assault element. They don't even need to come into the site until it's secure. It was always something pushed by those who never were in the unit.

Just a background on my platoon taking the security element course. I know of the course being 2 weeks but my platoon attended only 1 week. We were suppose to go back the 2nd week but it got kank(spelling?). A platoon from the boat company got the mission to be the trailer platoon. My company was helo. Don't know the reason for us being kank but i heard the other platoon got it cuz they are boat trained while were not. Another one was the boat company was a favorite by the battalion commander. Then on my 2nd training cycle/MEU, our platoon got the task to be trailer again. Our LT. even had us at least qualify to 2nd class swimmer. He even try to train the platoon in boats. In the end, the other platoon got it.

I have taken MWTC summer package, TRAP, and security element course. The security course was the best i have ever taken. I remember in SOI, the instructors told us to line up the rear and front sight post(not looking thru it). When i was taking the security course, i learned how to shoot. Passing was 80%, i got 84%. I wish i did better though. One of the obstacle during the last day was you have to shoot at the tango. If you miss or shot at the hostage, you run up one of the hill. One of the instructor said it was a b$tch running up that hill. But i never found out how running up that steep hill feels like:biggrin: I still have my certificate of the course.

[Yarg]

SB is absolutely right, no reason for anyone other than the operators being on the Obj until after it is secured.
I remember in my younger days having SCAMP Marines attached to my team for implanting sensors, we ended up carring all the dudes gear one time to include his web gear and weapon. I also know of other teams who had similar attachments of some sort with the same results. This could be a real fatal error on a real mission.
SOTG instructors with the Recon backgrounds can weed a lot of the bad stuff out and keep thing in the right perspective, and I am not belittling non Recon instructors. SB did this well, real pro at his job. I enjoyed watching him in action, listen and learn. Be the know it all dude, he made you wish they were not there; in a smooth professional manner I must add. Those were the good ole days.

Y/O

[Markslams]

A little off course but I did the SOTG CQB course on Pendleton mid 2005. I lost my cert and that shit isn't on my DD214. Any way you guys still have a copy of it?

I was there when an instructor, who was from 2/4, got hit in the arm by a ricochet because a target was placed in front of a boulder or something. It was on the far ranges in the back past the shoot house, near the gas mask O-course. I don't know how much its changed since then.

[STOIC1]

Local Schools aren't on DD-214. They will be on your education page on MOL though.

[Markslams]

Local Schools aren't on DD-214. They will be on your education page on MOL though.


Good to know.

That shit isn't there anywhere. Is it supposed to be on the BTR?

Any info regarding getting the actual cert.?

[Silverbullet]

Unless something changed SOTG crses were listed on the DD214.

At one point they had lead agency's and were subj to HQMC course curriculum review boards.

[GummyBear0311]

Unless something changed SOTG crses were listed on the DD214.

At one point they had lead agency's and were subj to HQMC course curriculum review boards.

I got out in 99 and my DD214 showed only the awards. I made a copy of my SRB and it listed Bridgeport and security element course.

[STOIC1]

I asked the question to SOCPAC why none of the schools (HRST,A/S,SERE Full-Spectrum,Bio-Data,ASO,etc...) Were on my DD-214.To my disappointment, I was told that only Formal Schools (Jump,Dive,SERE-C,BRC,Ranger) are on your DD-214. The rest are considered "local schools"and will only show on the education page on mol. Even courses taken at JSOU were not considered "formal". I was never an instructor at SOTG though, and I think their schools are more recognized especially by TECOM, then the ones at MSOS.

[freds4]

I asked the question to SOCPAC why none of the schools (HRST,A/S,SERE Full-Spectrum,Bio-Data,ASO,etc...) Were on my DD-214.To my disappointment, I was told that only Formal Schools (Jump,Dive,SERE-C,BRC,Ranger) are on your DD-214. The rest are considered "local schools"and will only show on the education page on mol. Even courses taken at JSOU were not considered "formal". I was never an instructor at SOTG though, and I think their schools are more recognized especially by TECOM, then the ones at MSOS.



They are not. We produce the certificates locally, they are not considered "formal" and will not be on a DD-214.

[Silverbullet]

Things change, I guess.

BTW, all certificates are produced locally by the training institution. That has nothing to do with formal school or not.

[BigNickT]

Things change, I guess.



No joke. All my SOTG stuff is on my DD214.

Tax out

[Fergie]

My coxswain and assault climbers course is on my DD214 as well. Of course, last I heard the Zodiacs and the Boston Whalers are no more in terms of TOE in the Fleet. Also, back in the late 80's none of the Bridgeport folks that I recall were Recons. The Coronado folks were a different story, though.

[chip8541]

Things change, I guess.

BTW, all certificates are produced locally by the training institution. That has nothing to do with formal school or not.

I believe it has to be recognized by TECOM. Course Codes identifiying approved POI's, funded by TECOM, school seats managed on MCTIMS. Im sure im missing other qualifiers as well.

Everything listed on mine has the codes,

I.E. Recruit Training (808) SSBC (81Z) WinterMLC (M7B) etc.

I could be way off base. I do remember the formal schools had the codes on certs identifying it to the POI, at least off the top of my head. Im pretty sure our local schools at Bridgeport had none, nor were the POI's approved at TECOM (Assault Climbers, SERE, Scout Skiers, etc.)

Anyone have any conflicting info? Not 100% on it.

[Silverbullet]

I believe it has to be recognized by TECOM. Course Codes identifiying approved POI's, funded by TECOM, school seats managed on MCTIMS. Im sure im missing other qualifiers as well.

Everything listed on mine has the codes,

I.E. Recruit Training (808) SSBC (81Z) WinterMLC (M7B) etc.

I could be way off base. I do remember the formal schools had the codes on certs identifying it to the POI, at least off the top of my head. Im pretty sure our local schools at Bridgeport had none, nor were the POI's approved at TECOM (Assault Climbers, SERE, Scout Skiers, etc.)

Anyone have any conflicting info? Not 100% on it.

I was the lead agent for all CQB, etc...training for the Corps. All of the special mission branch courses were signed off by TECOM. I managed 5 separate POI's that constituted a 6 month training cycle to include all East Coast TRUE evolutions. I regularly coordinated and met with TECOM to update, review curriculum and fight for standards with people who worked there but had no idea what the training entailed.

I know up until 2000 SOTG courses were listed on the DD-214.

Things may have changed now but there was no question what was done before.

[chip8541]

I would have to imagine it hasnt changed from 2000 SB. Its probably the same as you know it was then.

I wonder where the disconnect happened on the interpretation of what can and cant be entered on certain individuals 214's? Unit level?

[Silverbullet]

I wonder where the disconnect happened on the interpretation of what can and cant be entered on certain individuals 214's? Unit level?

That is what I was referring to. I'm just a retired dude. The guys now know what is correct and what isn't.

The branch I ran and it's training facility's are now part of MarSoc.

[sarc88]

It also depends on the person doing your DD214. When I did mine, I sat right next to the clerk who was typing it. He had my SRB open between us, and he asked me to identify the courses I wanted him to list on my 214. I also had a stack of "informal" diplomas (Like EMT Instructor) in a seperate folder, I'm talking about those little 1-10 day local courses that never make it into your service jacket...he entered them if I asked him to (Like the 1 day 1st Marine Division Laser Operator's Course) LOL I still remember the verbiage "near-IR incidental laser" from that one. And no, that's not on my 214.

[freds4]

This is correct. A code is needed for it to be a "formal" course. I believe the disconnect occured when the non-MSOB courses were briefly discontinued at SOTG. When we "turned back on" the R&S, Urban Sniper and CQB courses, there was no longer any oversight from TECOM. The POI's SB described still exist, but have not been reviewed or updated in many years. We used them as a basis for rebuilding these courses but current TTP's dictated that we make many changes, none of which were approved by TECOM. Now that we have also turned back on VBSS and soon GOPLATs, this is going to change. We are in the process of getting all the SOTG's back on the same sheet of music and producing POI's that are approved by TECOM once again.
Although I can't say for sure, the courses that were never dropped should still have codes (Assault Climbers, SERE, HRST, etc) and therefore should still show on the DD214.
I also had a similar experience to SARC88. The young admin clerk would have put whatever I told him to put on my DD214, as long as I had a Cert, but normally they take the info right from your schools page in the 3270, which will only show the coded, formal schools.

I believe it has to be recognized by TECOM. Course Codes identifiying approved POI's, funded by TECOM, school seats managed on MCTIMS. Im sure im missing other qualifiers as well.

Everything listed on mine has the codes,

I.E. Recruit Training (808) SSBC (81Z) WinterMLC (M7B) etc.

I could be way off base. I do remember the formal schools had the codes on certs identifying it to the POI, at least off the top of my head. Im pretty sure our local schools at Bridgeport had none, nor were the POI's approved at TECOM (Assault Climbers, SERE, Scout Skiers, etc.)

Anyone have any conflicting info? Not 100% on it.

[Trig]

FWIW both of my SOTG courses are not shown on my DD-214, but then again none of my Div courses are shown either. According to my DD-214 I have no military education. Glad I kept all my certs.
My fault for sure,..It didn't seem important at the time.

[Dragbag]

Dude, you know the exact words to make some of us feel OLD....:frown::biggrin:

Yep, nothing like taking a trip to the head, copping a squat on the thrown of kings and having the underside of your ball sack get wet:biggrin: