Why use a .50 4 personel?

[Super Sniper15]

I was just looking at the .338 Lapua and was wondering, why do the guys in SF, SEALs ect. use a .50 for 'soft targets'. The .338 has less recoil, muzzle blast, it can be used in a lighter package, and is less expensive to use not only being more accurate. i mean wy have a fatigued sniper who is killed because he missed his target, and the other men picked up on him because his .50 blew up a dust cloud that looked like someone let a block of C-4 go in the sand. just wanna hear some reasoning from the pros and experts alike. like i said i was just thinking.

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Peace is time, is the time used to train for war.

[Tuukka]

No real life experience on this but the .50 BMG weapons were introduced for Hard Target Interdiction, take out costly equipment for a small price tag. You can of course use it on personnel, though this was"officially" banned in a international convention, correct me if im mistaken here.

One piece of equipment which is a good piece of gear for a sniper with a weapon of any caliber is a suppressor, it masks the position of the shooter, hides muzzle flash and the weapon doesn´t create effects in enviroment due to muzzle blast, sand etc...

The TRG 42 in .338 LM has been selected for use by the Finnish Defence Forces here. Good ballistics for 1300 or so meters.

[Mac679]

.338LM is a good round from what I've been told ( I'm not a sniper BTW ) but .50BMG has a longer range so you can have a greater engagement range in situations where it's needed. .50's ain't packed everyday anyways http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

Surpressors-affect internal and external ballisitics by reducing range ( through the reduction of muzzle velocity and energy ) so they have limited use; I'd like to see some feedback on a product from Nor Cal Precision, their Tactical Vent and Flash Hider

[Tuukka]

A suppressor will not drop the MV of a projectile, a integrally suppressed one, for example a HK MP5SD or a Sterling Mk5(L34A1 in the British nomenclature) weapon will reduce the velocity of a projectile thereby you do not need to use sub sonic ammunition.
Hoewer when using sub sonic ammunition the maximum range is drastically shorter. I have a suppressor on my M4A3 carbine and it will in all likelyhood increase the MV sligtly because of the suppressor design.

To learn more about suppressors(Finnish ones), click here

http://www.guns.connect.fi/rs/index.html

[snip1er]

Just so you know where we are coming from, we have a Windrunner .50 and an AI .338 in our armsroom so we have some time behind both rifles. Our other Director took a 700+lb Nilghi at 1017 yards about two months ago with the .338. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

So on with the Q&A: First off, any rifle will kick up dust if you don't know how to prep your area. Doesn't matter if it is a .50 or a .22 cal. Next, the price to shoot a .50 is more than a .338 Lapua? Where are you getting your prices? I know we get wholesale prices on ammo and we still pay over $50 per box of 20 on the .338! You can get .50 cheaper than that. In addition, .50 is in the military inventory in large quantities. Then you have the new .408 CheyTac, which will cost you over $10 per round! Ouch! There should be a thread on the .408 down in the Long/Range forum with links to some test data.

We are waiting to get our hands on the .408 and hope to get time on that the end of October. Might just have to add that to the armsroom...supersonic out to 3300 yards! Makes the .338 and .50 look like pea shooters. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by snip1er (edited 05-08-2001).]

[Gunny Hicks]

Originally posted by Tuukka:
though this was"officially" banned in a international convention, correct me if im mistaken here.

Sorry. But this is a myth.

.50 Cal. weapons can be used against personnel. (along with white phosphorus and 500 lb air deliverable bombs)

[Tuukka]

Thanks Gunny Hicks, i am aware that the .50 has been and will be used a against personnel, thanks for clearing that up.

[JY]

The .50 rifles are not deployed specificly to use against personnel. It's main function is anti material, but if a hi quality personnel target appears it will be engaged with the .50, as will the same target be engaged by the M2HB if in the AO.Or for that matter, 25mm chain guns, 35mm anti air or what ever.

JAG has issued several readings on the subject with all saying it's perfectly legal under all the conventions forced upon the military to make war more "civilized" http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif

Take care...Jim

[Super Sniper15]

Well 'sn1per' i don't know where you get your ammo for the .338 but you are gettin' ripped the F#%@ off!. i'm gettin' ammo for about $30 bucks still not a whole lot better than a 20rnd box of 7.62 but still a bargain. and i was wonderin' y not handload the .338? most ammo companys don't get the ful potential of the .338. my own load that i use is a substatial charge of H-50BMG powder behind a 300 grain Sierra matchking using F-250 magnum primers, and Norma brass. just a little suggestion i get about 2800fps with that load(HOTTT!) out of a 27 inch barrel.

[snip1er]

We shoot the Lapua ammo and soon to test the new Black Hills. What kind of ammo are you getting for $30??? Does PMC load .338 for $30?

If we do simple math we can see that you can't even load a .338 for $30 a box. At least not with any quality...

Lapua Brass: $2.05 x 500 = $1025
Lapua Scenar 250gr: $45.50(100 bullets) x 5 = 227.50

Without even considering powder or primers you are already up around $50 a box of 20.

If we go a cheaper route...

Sierra HPBT 300gr: $173 (for 500)
Norma Brass: $118(for 100) x 5 = $590

Without powder of primers = You are now down around $30 per box of 20, but again that is not considering powder or primers.

As I look through an ammo catalog I see that you are probably looking at the .338 WM, .338 RUM or one of the others. So, are you sure you have or are looking at .338 Lapua and not one of the other .338 variants? They aren't the same dog, so you can't bring 'em to this fight!?!?

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Thomas www.snipersparadise.com (http://www.snipersparadise.com)
www.snipersparadise.com/sniperchat.htm (http://www.snipersparadise.com/sniperchat.htm)

[Super Sniper15]

Sn1per, its my friend who's a high power target shooter that says he's gettin' .338 for 30 bucks, personally i think he's doing something illegal. but like i said i don't know where he gets his ammo, it has Norma prints on the brass, he may be gettin it from some really really small manufactureer. but thats just my theory.

[snip1er]

Find out for sure if its .338 Lapua or one of the others. If it is the .338 Lapua then find out what and where. I just checked again, .338 Lapua loaded is $78.50 per box of 20 retail. If he has a line on .338 lapua for $30 I'd be willing to track down the supplier and try some... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

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Thomas www.snipersparadise.com (http://www.snipersparadise.com)
www.snipersparadise.com/sniperchat.htm (http://www.snipersparadise.com/sniperchat.htm)

[Mac679]

Originally posted by Tuukka:
A suppressor will not drop the MV of a projectile, a integrally suppressed one, for example a HK MP5SD or a Sterling Mk5(L34A1 in the British nomenclature) weapon will reduce the velocity of a projectile thereby you do not need to use sub sonic ammunition.

um, what happens when one reduces velocity? max effective range drops as well doesn't it?

[Super Sniper15]

Sn1per, i talked to the guy and i misheard what he said, he said .308 for 30 bucks. Oops my bad, guess the plugs are working after all. But still, i can shoot his .338 better than his .50 (both are McMillans)

[snip1er]

http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/frown.gif

[NMBR5ML]

JY said it all. The .50 is used for light material targets and stand-off munitions disruption. The .338 Lapua is not a viable replacement in this role, and there is no indication it would be a significant improvement over what is currently fielded for anti-personnel use.

[NMBR5ML]

Whoa there...

[This message has been edited by NMBR5ML (edited 06-05-2001).]

[NMBR5ML]

Holy Crap!!!

[This message has been edited by NMBR5ML (edited 06-05-2001).]

[BRUM8541]

While there is no doubt that Marine Snipers are the best trained snipers in the world, our choise of calibers continues to be subpar. It is rediculas that we continue to employee the .308 as our primary sniper cartridge. The .308 was designed to be a 300 to 600 yard competition cartridge. The only reason the Marine Sniper can have any effectiveness beyond that, is due to the weeks pigs spend on the range learning to compensate for the .308's terrible long range trajectory. I am very disapointed the Corps has chosen the .308 to take us into the 21st. century, in a 17 pound rifle no less. I, along with any other good rifle builder, could build a 17 pound 7mm (STW or the new Ultra Mag) that would have supersonic capability out to 1700 to 1800 yards. Look at ANY of the shooters at the 1000 yard bench rest competitions, NONE of them use the .308. The 50 caliber is a good cartridge for use against light skinned vehicles, grounded aircraft, etc. The 50 is not a good long range cartridge for personnal, for one reason, accuracy. The 50 is a very inherantly inaccurate cartridge. Bottle neck shape, ineffeciant, very heavy recoil, etc. I have done exstensive testing and shooting with the 50 in competition, I won a competition in Neveda a few yares ago tying the world record 1000 yard group at the time. I have owned two of them amd was hired to shoot them at Aberdine. The fifty was choosen because it already exsisited in the military arsenal. They simply adopted a round that was designed to shoot and feed reliable out of a heavy machine gun, and tried to make a sniper rifle around it. I am intrigued by the .404 that is being tested. That is where we need to put some R and D into, man packable, reasonable weight, extreme long range capability, very high accuracy potential. While we are at it GET RID OF THAT PIECE OF SHIT UNERTAL SCOPE. The only thing that made that scope special was the turrent system. I taught at SS school for three years, and probably delt with nearly every Unertal 1st. Mar.Div. had at the time. The Unertal is hard to zero, doesn't hold a zero well, is nearly impossible to adjust paralax out of, has horrible optics (to small objective lens and tube) Lens scratch too easy. I tried the tent peg pounding thing at a dog and pony show I got stuck with one day, and just smacking the tent peg against the scope tube a few times, nearly ruined the scope. The Unertal was good technology in the late 70's it is prehistoric now.


John Brumbaugh
1st Marine Division SS Instuctor 91 to 94

[BRUM8541]

I do not know what is wrong with my profile but my e-mail addres is Brumbaughjohn@hotmail .com

[Jesse]

What is the .404 you mentioned?

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When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.

-Jesse Foust

[Sharky]

I think he meant to say the .408 Cheyenne Tactical.

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F.I.D.O.

[Jesse]

I didn't even think about it. I wonder where my brain went?

[BRUM8541]

Sharky:

You are correct, during my rant I made a typo, I was refering to the .408

Brum