Artillery and Air-Strike Training

[RifleMaster]

Trigger50 and Jim,

Is artillery and air-strike fire training included in SOP sniper courses? If it isn't, why isn't it?

As you probably recall from earlier posts, I was with MACV and regularly "put-in" arty and gunships. The arty and gunship fire was far more effective than I could have been with a sniper rifle. My Team reputation and future assignments were unconsciously made by this. So, I believe this knowledge is very important for those that operate in forward areas.

Of course, do not violate any regs!

Carl/RifleMaster

[Triggerfifty]

Hi Carl,

Within the SOTIC programs there are no artillery/CAS training programs in place. The big reason for this is that the different SF Groups and Ranger Battalions have either Air Liaison Officers or AF Fire Control operators that will train the SF guys and selected Rangers.

Out Teams at 1st SFGA constantly were trained both in the simulation booth and with live fire exercises in Yakima, Washington. More live fire with fast movers and bombers though than with the artillery guys. The major emphasis being that we would be too deep to get artillery in there.

Naval gunfire is available too, but mostly fixed wing air strike support. There is also the Joint Fire Support School at Hurlburt Field, run by the AF.

[Andy0331]

Riflemaster, I know that while I was in the Corps, CFF (call for fire) was included at the Scout Sniper Basic Course, at least at Quantico. Not really an in depth course, but giving you the basics and actually calling in "missions" with live rounds downrange.
I understand the importance of this training for snipers, but would like to submit that most Infantry Marines (at least those professional enough to go to STA /Scout Sniper Plt, whatever it's called now) would be fairly proficient in calling in supporting arms.

Andy

[RifleMaster]

Triggerfifty and Andy0330,

Thanks for the replies!

I believe that all recon, snipers, scouts, and special operation troops should be trained and proficient in calling arty, gunships, and air-strikes. By the nature of their missions they are often in a position to call these fires.

As a MACV Sergeant (E5), I called and adjusted arty and gunships many times. Oh, and called many day and night (fun!fun!fun!)medvacs. There were many other times when I requested arty, gunships, and air via the FAC (aloft or birddog) circling above. The FAC (Air Force pilots) saved our asses so many times by expertly directing the arty, gunships, and air. I learned to call this fire via OJT! I'm glad to hear that people are being trained these days!
Tomorrow, I will call a few SEAL shooter buddies and ask them about this training. I think they also receive this training.

Oh, my old high school football team won their semi-final CIF (state playoff) game tonight. So, next weekend they will play the CIF championship game.

Thanks again for the replies!

Cheers,

Carl/RifleMaster

[Triggerfifty]

Carl,

Call for Fire is indeed an extremely important skill, if only you get the officers to understand that battlefield skills are important to suceed in combat. Computer nowadays seem to be the important element. And i'm not talking about using them for the right things. Documents within a company having to be letter perfect and the like...

Anyway, you were MACVSOG huh? Hats off to you my friend. Yours was the toughest of missions. You may be interested and to know that many of the techniques that SOG used are being taught today. Maybe not at the JFK center as the infantry manual seems to have taken over there. Such as teaching fire and maneuver methods based on the support of larger units (which SF teams don't have) and fire support (which SF teams rarely have).

The SOG methods and their old "tips of the trade" papers are like bible material on the teams. In Thailand, as a member of 1st SFGA, we taught several recon courses we called "one-zero" courses. Same methodology as you guys used.

Honored to know you my friend.

[RifleMaster]

Triggerfifty,
I share your respect for MACV SOG members! Sorry for misleading! I was not with MACV SOG.
I was with MACV Advisory Team 70 (1967-1969)that was assigned to the 5th ARVN Division in Northern III Corps. I volunteered (1049's) for Vietnam, a field team, and another tour, and I played the cards I was dealt the best I could. On my second tour, I did some of the ops that SOG was doing, i.e., recon, ambush, prisoner snatch, and BDA's with ARVN Recon/Recondos. However, I never went over the "fence" and arty was usually available if you could obtain radio contact.
Robert Parrish's book "Combat Recon" covers his year with Team 70 and the Recondos. Bob, Glynn (Reload308 posts here), and I were in Team 70 during part of 1968.
Well, back to the subject of all special ops troops being trained in calling arty, gunships and air (via FAC). I didn't call my SEAL friends, but, I will.
I do not believe that this training should be taught in a sniper course. But, I strongly believe it should be taught to enlisted DA, recondos, scouts and snipers.

Dean, take care!

Carl/RifleMaster

[SSD]

CFF is still taught at the 1 Mar Div Scout/Sniper School. Snipers are also still sent to the Navys 2 week school in Coronado.

[RifleMaster]

SSD,
Thanks for the reply!
I haven't called Andy (SEAL and gunsmith) to ask about their indirect fire and air support training. Although, I'm sure they are trained. He has been on TDY for awhile.

My Son-in-law (SSgt USMC) told me that Call For Fire (?CFF) was taught when he went through the USMC NCO academy at Camp Lejeune.

Last night when I was reading Ed Kugler's "Dead Center", he described calling arty in on a NVA column until a birddog (FAC) came up. The NVA were probably on their way to Hue. Jim (JY) put me on to this book, and it's a good one. It brings back some old memories!

SSD Hold'em hard! ... Carl/RifleMaster

[SSD]

Even when I was a boot with the Grunts we received Call for Fire classes and training. It is a corner stone of Marine tactics. We usually don't have everything with us we need to fight the large units we usually run into.

[recce_o]

Triggerfifty:

Above you wrote:

"The SOG methods and their old "tips of the trade" papers are like bible material on the teams. In Thailand, as a member of 1st SFGA, we taught several recon courses we called "one-zero" courses. Same methodology as you guys used."

Are any of these materials publicly available? Is this the stuff from Detachment B52?

[Triggerfifty]

Recce-o,

That stuff is here and there, I still have several of my old team SOPs with those items listed in the back. STarting tomorrow, i'll begin posting the ones that i can find. They are from MACVSOG, B-52 and have been updated for equipment by current SF teams.

Have considered publishing a team SOP or two, could be a security issue though.

[blaster85]

I think that knowing call for fire & close air support is an intrical part of scout sniper teams. CCF is one of the first things I was taught in a line co & tested on when I went to a STA plt