Dogs...

[Linus]

Anyone who has any experience trying to outstalk dogs? I've managed (happened?) to do it once, most likely from pure chance than anything else, and I'd like to hear from anyone else with similar experiences in order to verify or reject my prejudices and conclusions on the subject.

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Honestas supra omnis

[Gunny Hicks]

At the Scout/SNiper Instructor crs in Quantico, we covered this quit abit. The Brits did a very extensive study of this. The conclusions area:

There is no consistently succesful way to either eliminate a guard dog, or stalk past one. What may succeed once, may not under similar circumstances the next time. There are no TTP's that can be taught that will with confidence, help you overcome a guard or tracking dog.

The bets you can do, is elliminate the dog handlers. The Dogs will not continue to track you, with our orders form their handlers. Ofcourse, tou kill the handler, you've compromised your presence.

[josepy]

Going along with what Gunny said, dogs are the number 1 threat to a sniper because they cannot be beaten.

We were told a story that a sniper got out of his ghillie and hid somewhere else. The dog went to the ghillie and they straight to him.

Shoot the handler.

[Sharky]

RUN FOREST RUN!!!!!!!!!!

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F.I.D.O.

[Linus]

I take it there is no extensive experience among the congregated on this subject... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

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Honestas supra omnis

[Sharky]

I would say that there is plenty of experience here, just not any good solutions. For snipers, tracking dogs just plain suck. There's just not much that can be done about them without getting compromised. Maybe a can of poisoned Alpo left on the backtrail? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

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F.I.D.O.

[LRSC Grunt]

What about leaving pepper or chili powder on the trail to fuck up the dogs nose? Some friend at a party told me about this, he said it worked when the dog searched his car. He said the dog couldnt stop sneezing, and didnt want to return to the car. Pissed the officer off though. Could it work when counter-tracking?

Or better yet, what about powdered CS crystals?(heard of it, but dont know if there is such a thing)

Of course this would probably work only once since dogs being intelligent and would learn from the experience. It could also work against you because you now have a strong odor associated with you and might increase your chances of getting compromised.

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 01-16-2001).]

[This message has been edited by LRSC Grunt (edited 01-16-2001).]

[Duel Cool]

I grew up on a Cattle Farm in the Mountain West Desert. My family has spent 3 generations combating Coyotes. After Serving 8 Years in the Marine corps. I came home with a new understanding of tactics. These are a few things that I have learned about indigenous dogs:

1. Indigenous dogs are patient and use all of their faculties to track you, Dogs will circle to the downwind side before they advance.

2. Dogs that are indeginoues know every foot of ground in their territory. If you leave trail or disturb it, they will know.

3. Everything your boots have touched will be painted on the ground for miles...Ponds rivers streams, etc.

3. A Pack will out flank you and sound the alarm, if any sign of confirmation or disturbance. Last thing you want is barking dogs to alert anyone within earshot.

4. Stay away from following gullies and trenchies. These are animal highways. the tougher the route the better.

While serving previously in Law Enforcement for 5 years. I have observed the Belgian Malemwau. K-9 breed. I noticed not all dogs were efficient, most dogs had to be continuously pointed into the right direction. From my experiance it has more to do with the handler and the dog working together, if they don't spend allot of time training together and maintain an active enviroment, they both get lazy. These Dogs dont hunt to survive, only to play and please the owner. I have witnessed several suspects outsmart dogs if they can gain ground between the dog.

1. You can outrun a handler/dog if it is tracking you and ambush it.

2. Study the handler and the dog and look for a weakness to exploit.

3. Maintain a downwind presence at all times.

4. Stay out of the Dogs routine Patrol area.

Their is a ton of other things that can be done if you study the enviroment that you are in.

I remember watching a TV documentary on the US Secret Service, they demonstrated a Bomb Dogs ability to pick out 10,000 differnt ingrediants of explosives. the dog knew all possible combinations. The agents even attempted to seperate it down to the simpleist ingrediants. The Dog never failed. I was impressed.

DOGS are bad news period.
they are a priority target, if you wish to continue followup operations in the area.

Denying the enemy a tool that helps them defend their ground is a good thing.

DC

[LRSC Grunt]

Now whats impressive is that there are dogs who are very accurate at detecting cancer. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif

[justagrunt]

Damn Duel Cool! I guess you know what your talking about...

[Sharky]

The best solution I've heard is to get on the radio and drop some arty on their ass or some CAS. That'll give em a lot more to worry about than chasing little ol you. If I see a dog, I won't be around long enough to study their habits. I'm outta there. Period. Fast as my little jungle boots will take me without running into any surprises. If you're ever in that situation, I would suggest that you do the same since the enemy may have artillery or CAS of their own. Just my opinion.

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F.I.D.O.

[josepy]

Carry that can of CS powder and sprinkle the trail. Should put Fido out of action for a day or so.

[Gunny Hicks]

Josepy: Depends on how good the handler is. A good handler will immediately pull the dog off the scent as soon as it begins to indicate that something is wrong with the trail.

Smearing Onions on the lower legs and boots ? Nah...won't work either. A good handler will get the dog to try and attain the old scent, but then he would set the dog to folw th new scent. (We went through all of tese scenarios at SSIC. And we couldn't develop a foolproof plan to overcome the dog probelm.

[Gunny Hicks]

Damn...triple post...

[This message has been edited by Gunny Hicks (edited 01-16-2001).]

[Gunny Hicks]

Now to get rid of the last piece of evidence.......



[This message has been edited by Gunny Hicks (edited 01-16-2001).]

[Linus]

Great replies, everybody and especially Duel Cool!

what happened in my case is it was an excercise strike on an airfield and they had dogs and I got chased. What I did was I doubled back and backtracked for about half a mile to a point where I could take a standing jump over a drop-off and down a steep slope right into a deep ditch filled with muddy water. I thought my frigging back was going to telescope from the impact but at least I got away and could eventually make my way around and back to the FUP. I misse dmy pick-up and had to walk all they way home. I think that was the longest, wettest and coldest walk I ever did and I don't, repeat: DON'T, wanna do it again.

Oh, whatta bunch of crap, I'd do it again tomorrow!

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Honestas supra omnis

[Gary]

The Sniper Sustainment Course in Bridgeport used to cover War Dog and Sentry Dog elimination. Unfortunately, you were already compromised if you were killing the damn dogs.

Leaving anything to deter dogs has the potential to let the locals know there is a hunter in their midst.

If dogs are on your trail you ARE compromised. Beat feet!

This is another good reason to booby trap where you stalked to your FFP. Nothing sucks more than having something come up your ass undetected.

PS. Glenn, I can't quite get over your username. Is that two hip guys fighting? (Duel Cool)

[Cut]

Basically all thats left is try your best to disrupt the relationship between the dog and handler.

Having worked with arson and explosives dogs, you can't "out-sniff" the dog.

What you can do is make the handler have second thoughts about what the dog is telling him.

Its all in what the handler interprets the dog is telling him. If you can convince the handler into thinking his dog is "sniffing everything" or loose confidence in the dog, then that may be enough to send them looking elsewhere.

Hope this helps with your question.

Cut

[Linus]

Now that I've been thinking about what you all said, I believe Cut migh be dead-on regarding my incident: The entire Idea of my manouver was that there'd be two tracks and both of 'em leading the wrong way. The entire trick was to confuse the handler as I knew chances were slim (to say the least!) that I'd have any leverage whatsoever on the dog. And with Sweden having a conscription army, dogs and handlers don't get to know each other all that good before either one gets out...

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Honestas supra omnis

[Sharky]

But that was in training. You willing to bet your life on some of these solutions in a real environment? That's the beauty of being a Sniper. In most cases, you don't have to force anything. If the advantage is yours, you can take it. If it's not, you slither away and live to fight another day.

I'm with Gary, beat feet. You hang around and try to psychoanalyze the dog or handler and play hide and seek games, you might find yourself doing the lone survivor drill with a bolt gun.

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F.I.D.O.

[Linus]

As always you're absolutely right, Sharky, just in this case I didn't much have a choice, as I was already compromised from the shot (among other things, I guess...) and was already being chased. I think the whole point of the excercise was to pit both parties against their respective nemesis. Why is it that the airfield security got such huge fucking dogs? Bigass alsatians, there's gotta be someone messing with their genes or something! Anyway...so it was more a question of trying to devise a plan that would help to "unscrew" the more imminent problems of a major fuckup. And, figuring it was an excercise anyway, I might as well seize the opportunity to try some lameass pre-teenage-adventure-book-style tricks. It worked that once. I believe the moral of the story is that the brain is any sniper's greatest asset: Being stupid got me running in the first place and hard thinking got me out of it. And even so, I still was made to pay for it by the long haul back home. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

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Honestas supra omnis

[tactical]

Dogs get you. They can smell your butt from many yards away.

Just a little humor on how I have handled them during SWAT Type Raids. The bad guys love dogs for the early warning, but because of thier Partners coming over at all hours they tend to keep them chained. I like to throw the littl guys meat and hit the door while they dine. Bad guy will say "How did you get by the dog" I respond "What dog"

Just a little humor that has nothing to do with the already answered question.

[Cut]

Interesting topic, alot of good comments here. Its all about options. The more you have, the better off you are.

Not many books have an index with "Being chased by people that want to kill me, here's what to do."

But take from this what you think will work, discard the rest. Cause it's your butt in the field.

Cut

[JY]

Hi Linus;

An old trick is to carry a plastic bag with cloth items like drive on rags and such worn by other troopers not on the op. When you believe you are being tracked you remove one from the bag and place it on your back trail(without touching it, use a stick to remove it). What happens is the dog will find the item, he will then stop, the handler will then start "casting" for the trail of this individual. This delays them both before they start on your trail again, giving you time to either open the distance, or fish hook back on them and SHOOT THE HANDLER! No need to worry about the noise if they have a dog on your 6, they know you are there. 4-4 in the SOTIC manual outlines all the options when being tracked by a dog, the best is SHOOT THE HANDLER! This works because a trained tracker dog will stay and protect his wounded handler.

Take care...or carry a BIG bag of dog cookies...Jim

[This message has been edited by JY (edited 01-19-2001).]

[Linus]

Hmmm...sounds pretty clever!

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Honestas supra omnis

[Whammer]

Don't want to sound ignorant,

But in lieu of not having CS crsytals, could tabasco work (ie from the MREs)? Obviously only good for stalling for time... If your load needs to be light, what is/could be the most expedient? curious...

di

[longrange1947]

Just some quick notes, Shoot the handler unless the dog is European LEA trained. The dog will attack on the gunshoot if he is so trained.

CS, tabasco, spices, etc. They do not work. Those items mess up a human nose, now stick your nose in the dirt and take a deep breath. You cough, dog does not. What those things do is clear the dogs sinuses and he now smells even better.

Counter tracking is an on going process that may or may not work. Some other things is to understand that to the dog it is a game. Make him think the game is over and he wants to go home, get a scooby snack, and lick where it feels good.

[Gunny Hicks]

Originally posted by longrange1947:
Just some quick notes, Shoot the handler unless the dog is European LEA trained. The dog will attack on the gunshoot if he is so trained.

It's a good thing that the dogs have a placard on their sides telling us how they were trained.

[Snake]

Originally posted by Gunny Hicks:
It's a good thing that the dogs have a placard on their sides telling us how they were trained.



Damned OSHA rules.....


Snake
25th ID(L)
"Electric Strawberry"
http://sill-www.army.mil/Graphics/crests/25id.jpg

[This message has been edited by Snake (edited 03-25-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Snake (edited 03-25-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Snake (edited 03-25-2001).]

[lavbo0321]

Awesome thread

DOGS are not only the worst enemy of Sniper but Recon teams too. In fact any guy behind enemy lines, will curse the day a dog gets on their trail.

It really depends on how close you are to the battlefield. Obviously the deeper you are the deeper in shit you will be. Close to the FEBA you can call artillery, shot the f'ers and beat feet around and maybe continue the mission. If you are deep you will have to call for extraction.

Shot the handler and the dog. They are both a threat and if you are already compromised you might as well help out your brothers and future ops in the Area.

Guard dogs are tough. Stay downwind of your target and hope for the best.

As a Repo man in LA we used to drug (poison) the dogs in we were in Gangland. Ooops, the dogs usually didn't make it. Oh well, pay your bills next time.

Food is a good thing too. If you know there are dogs there then you can bring some.

Duel Cool

Good Intel!

Good Luck!

Linus

That is exactly what to do. RUN. Dogs are not that smart and dog handlers can be tricked. It also depends on luck.

Gary

Yea if you are being tracked by dogs then mission over man. KILL the dogs/handler immediately and put some booby tracks down to discourage pursuit by their friends.

Hell we should send out Sniper/Recon team to do nothing but kill the dogs/handlers. Good for moral.

tactical

When I was a Repo man we used to feed the dogs too. But we could get away with adding some sleeping pills; you coppers probably wouldn't won't that liability.

Cut

I am writing that book as we speak. ;-)

IAD should cover dogs. It is a real possibility in the third world. Even if the dog is a lonely farm dog. It could spell dome.

JY

Wow. Good stuff. We were trained to bring an extra blouse and put it in a tree, then pee around the tree to confuse the dogs more.

longrange1947

I think you me be right. However I have seen with my own eye's CS crystals work on two German Shepard’s. It ruined there day and made for our extract. It may depend on the type of dog. But I have heard CS failing on some type of dogs.

GREAT thread.

There are two other things you can do but OPSEC prevents me for telling. But if you email me and send me a check for $50 bucks I might tell you NOT

;-)

Semper Fi

[Linus]

WOW! Who kicked this thread back on line? Real nice! Good to see y'all again, it's been pretty dead around here lately, hasn't it?

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Honestas supra omnis

[longrange1947]

Originally posted by Gunny Hicks:
It's a good thing that the dogs have a placard on their sides telling us how they were trained.



Rats, and I thought that was what the S-2 was supposed to do for me. Give that type of info, atleast it worked in the past.

[Gunny Hicks]

I realy don't think that the Battalion level Intel guys are going to be informed on who trained the dog teams for a particular unit, or entire enemy force. They have far more important things to be concerned with.

[longrange1947]

The intel guys have studies that will give alot of that info for our guys. Do not know about the Marines, Gunny, only worked some with them. Actually, alot of info does not get to the troops because no one asked and the intel guys have do not have the background to know what is needed.

[Curtis Newkirk]

Don't know much about sniper operations, but I do know a dog can be circumvented, if not defeated. The average patrol dog is good for 2 to 3 hours. After that, he wants to chase cats, sleep, and lick his balls (sounds like the average Lt don't it). The use of an upwind probe to gain the dog's attention will sometimes work. The dog will probably still detect you moving downwind, but he's going to give a stronger indication on the strongest stimulus.
We had a Delta Operator score a knife kill on a handler here at Osan during Foal Eagle 99. The dog had be on duty way to long (not to mention the handler).

Defensor Brewus
Defender of the Beer

[Gunny Hicks]

Originally posted by longrange1947:
The intel guys have studies that will give alot of that info for our guys. Do not know about the Marines, Gunny, only worked some with them. Actually, alot of info does not get to the troops because no one asked and the intel guys have do not have the background to know what is needed.

This is were the vacuum is, and why most troops never get any scoop on matters like this.

[Gunny Hicks]

Originally posted by Curtis Newkirk:
Don't know much about sniper operations, but I do know a dog can be circumvented, if not defeated.

Does your knowledge guarantee a 100% capabiity to overcome a dog each and every time ?

This is the problem. There is NO perfect way to overcome the dog that you can be confident will work repeatedly. The chances of allerting the dog to your presence before you can strike, is too grat. And compromise is too likely.

The average patrol dog is good for 2 to 3 hours. After that, he wants to chase cats, sleep, and lick his balls (sounds like the average Lt don't it). The use of an upwind probe to gain the dog's attention will sometimes work. The dog will probably still detect you moving downwind, but he's going to give a stronger indication on the strongest stimulus.

Up wind probe ? On an Air Sniffer. Yes. A good handler will notice that the dog is reacting to a new scent. And if he is good, can get the dog back onto the scent he is suposede to be on. (Once again, the expertise of teh handler is the decideing factor) But many dogs are ground sniffers. Most attack dogs are sight dogs. There are just too many unknowns about dealing with dogs. What worked yesterday, may not work on todays dogs.

The handler is usually the weak link. The best trained dog in the world, will only perform to the standard the handler works it towards.

We had a Delta Operator score a knife kill on a handler here at Osan during Foal Eagle 99. The dog had be on duty way to long (not to mention the handler).

Good on him.

[Curtis Newkirk]

The tactics I posted were for breaking a perimeter secured by MWD teams. Most military Dogs are not trained to track, although some have a natural knack for it. The majority of K-9s (ours anyway) are trained as patrol, or patrol/bomb, or Patrol/Drug. They pose a threat as LP/OPs, or as members of ambush/recon patrols. But Gunny, your right, there is no "correct process" that will work with every MWD team.

[Gunny Hicks]

Roger that.

No matter how you approach it. Dogs mean trouble. A well trained, and expertly handled dog, (or even worse, a team of dogs)can be disasterous to ground operators.

[Hotmike]

Has anybody tried the commercially available sprays for masking female dogs in heat? I know the druggies are using them pretty extensively, and having a bit of success with them... also bear in mind, many dogs are cross trained in "Dudes, Drugs and Duds"... laying numerous scents will often cause a dog to wonder which game he's playing... (yeah, right, we'll all carry a little weed, raw meat, coke and C-4 with us on an operation)... Many MWDs will "Go for the dope" over any other scent. (also fucks with the handler when the dog starts alerting to dope when he should be tracking, but it's in his nature to want his reward)
I would think another "study" would be done by the Quantico boys to see how to best defeat the nose. (I know one was done in the 70s, but a lot has changed since then).
Bottom line... Dogs is bad news... We should invest a lot of time figuring out how to neutralize them without performing lead projectile retroactive abortions

Just my 2 Cents

Hotmike

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Diplomacy is the Art of saying "Nice Doggie" till you find a huge rock to crush his skull with...

[Mac679]

Okay, I can't exactly say I've done a whole lot of work against dogs beyond stalking past the loudest mouth in the South at home. Just the old basics of slow movement and paying attention to where you step and what's going around you. As for my thoughts on avoiding dogs in the first place, I've had some instruction in NJ on it. De-scent! Cover your body odor with some sort of natural scent-a dog will have a hard time tracking a human smelling like a pine tree in a pine forest. Boil chopped pine needles or other fragant plants, put the liquid in a spray bottle and go to work on your ghillie or BDU's. Use natural soaps ( Dr. Bronner's, pine tar, etc. ). Just keep the plant and scent native to the area. Charcoal and ash can work to, just don't apply wood ash wet unless you enjoy being treated for chemical burns.
just my 4 cents,
Mac

[reconsweden]

My input on this.

I agree there is no perfect way and that the handler is the weak link.
I have found that remebering that the handler is just a soldier helps in most situations. Just go where a soldier would be reluctant to go and you can manage to evade even dog patrols.

I´ve avoided dog patrols on a few occasions by going where no sane man would willingly go.
Some places I´ve been in: extreme undergrowth(thorns), by a pair of trees in a 25x50 meter waterhole and my personal favorite: a full days sneak thru a swamp.
All above are examples on where the "enemy" had dogs and I(+my squad) remained undetected.


Use some psychology, make the handler frustrated and bored so you have a bigger chance to avoid detection.
Of course this is all depending on the dog/handlers training, physical/mental state and motivation.

If you are compromised you need to get away anyhow plus (you can take out the handler though) so running is the best option.

Linus,

Vad var/är du?
Basäk, flygbasjägare?



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Videre Non Videri

[Linus]

Originally posted by reconsweden:
Linus,

Vad var/är du?
Basäk, flygbasjägare?

Reconsweden;

Ingetdera, jag var beredskapgrpch på den tiden det begav sig. Idag lallar jag mest runt med HV och FBU. Incidenten i fråga ägde rum vid Visby flygfält när vi var B-styrka åt en plut som slutövade tilsammans med flygjäsbagarna där. Sjukt rolig övning, för övrigt!

Var har du hållit hus sista tiden? Ja ja, se men inte synas...



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Honestas supra omnis

[ghostop]

how about smeering crap on yourself? crap as in animal poop which would probably be in that area. Or get a lot of inhalants and drugs, and drug them to death!

[Sharky]

You've obviously been experimenting with inhalants yourself huh? Was it gasoline or spraypaint? I will say though that you are one funny MOFO. LMAO.....again

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F.I.D.O.

[Linus]

Or you could carry a big boulder and drop it if you got chased so you could run faster...yeah!

Linus

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Honestas supra omnis

[Sharky]

Originally posted by Linus:
Or you could carry a big boulder and drop it if you got chased so you could run faster...yeah!

Linus


ROTFFLMMFAO..... Is that a Swedish technique?


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F.I.D.O.

[Linus]

It's an old viking trick, handed down from father to son through the millennia... Or it could be some old jungle trick the brits picked up from the tribesmen in Borneo, who used it to get away when chased by wild boars...or sumthin'. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/tongue.gif

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Honestas supra omnis

[Tuukka]

Hah, i have always known that the Swedes are f***** up.

[Linus]

Ahem, Tuukka, my dear fourlegged friend...

I'd be careful with who I call f****d up, Hakkapelitta: Finns aren't exactly reputed to be the most stable folks either, as I recall. Here, we mosty see you guys crawling of the boats between Helsinki and Stockholm, drunk as skunks and bleeding like pigs (hence the "fourlegged friend" remark...) http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

Then again, this is the "Dogs..." thread. Goes to show...

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Honestas supra omnis