THANKS

[ICEMAN 1]

AS A CIVILIAN SHOOTING ENTHUSIAST I WOULD LIKE TO THANK ALL MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES FOR THIER SACRIFICES THAT NOW ALLOW MYSELF AND ALL OTHER AMERICANS TO LIVE IN A NATION AS GREAT AS OURS.
ALSO AS THE GRANDSON OF A WWII VETERAN WHO PASSED AWAY WHEN I WAS VERY YOUNG I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO VISIT A VERY INTERESTING AND INSPIRING SITE LIKE THIS

HOPE TO JOIN IN A DISCUSSION WITH YOU MEN VERY SOON

[Repp]

This is going to get me in deeeeeep trouble again but...

I have the greatest respect for veterans, and think they can not be praised enough. My following question shoudl also NEVER be against the qualities and acomplishments of the armed servises.
BUT..
How do the Armed Forces make America great?

[ICEMAN 1]

TO ANSWER VERY SIMPLY

BY PROTECTING OUR FREEDOM AND WAY OF LIFE FOR THE LAST SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS!!

[josepy]

Repp -

Because we can kick yours and everyone elses ass whenever we feel like it.

[ICEMAN 1]

ANOTHER GOOD REASON

[Repp]

How did the Vietnam war and the Gulfwar protect america.

josepy - what a crappy answer
Repp

[josepy]

What would you like to hear Repp? You want us to prove to you that we are a great country? Why do you care?

Are Americans arrogant? Yes. Am I? More than most.

Why do I care what some kid from Germany thinks? I don't.

OUT!

[Scotty]

Ja, Franz. Und wie will pump you up as well. Ich schulegan, Du bist eine Dumkopf. We only kicked most of your country in the balls during WWII. Then, we decided to inhabit the rest of it.

Obwohl ich das Schrauben Ihrer deutschen Damen deshalb, besonders auf Ihrem eigenen Land, liebe.

America's forces are the best because I'm American and I say they are. As you know, we're all ethnocentric. We're also the biggest (besides maybe China as far as troops go) and one of the most modern. And we haven't truly lost a conflict in many moons.

So there. Nyaaaa. Herr SheiSnoggen.

Ich liebe dich.

Scotty


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Some people call them "terrorists", these boys have simply been misguided

[Scotty]

Ja, Franz. Und wie will pump you up as well. Ich schulegan, Du bist eine Dumkopf. We only kicked most of your country in the balls during WWII. Then, we decided to inhabit the rest of it.

Obwohl ich das Schrauben Ihrer deutschen Damen deshalb, besonders auf Ihrem eigenen Land, liebe.

America's forces are the best because I'm American and I say they are. As you know, we're all ethnocentric. We're also the biggest (besides maybe China as far as troops go) and one of the most modern. And we haven't truly lost a conflict in many moons.

So there. Nyaaaa. Herr SheiSnoggen.

Ich liebe dich.

Scotty


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Some people call them "terrorists", these boys have simply been misguided

[medicjim]

.


[This message has been edited by medicjim (edited 12-01-2000).]

[medicjim]

Hey guys, a little history...

The Germans consistently outperformed US troops in WW2 Europe man to man. They were the better soldiers.

The US (and allies) won a war of supply...not of tactics, doctrine or motivation. We were very slow to learn in many, many cases.

I have read some, not all of Repp's comments and he appears to be rational and well thought out in his questions... the responses he gets are at times less cordial...

If you really want to be the best that you can be, shouldn't you assume that everyone has something you could learn??? Why constantly take juvenile shots??

The whole "my country is better than yours" stuff comes off as self entitlement.

[ICEMAN 1]

IF YOU WILL TAKE A LOOK AT MY ORIGINAL POST I DID NOT INTEND FOR THIS TO BE A PISSING CONTEST APPEARS REPP WAS JUST LOOKING FOR CONTROVERSY

[Scotty]

SHH!

Sorry Doc, didn't mean to come off as a rabble-rouser. I grew up in Heidelburg (even though my Deutsche is a little rustiche) and I feel that I can say such things to our friend in Germany because I know that they are kind hearted, easy going people who like to drink beer, take over small countries, and kill Jewish people. And they make WONDERFUL firearms, most of the choiciest ones that I own.

Basically, in a nutshell, I'm just being sarcastic. And Americentric. Too much absynth, I guess.

Big kisses.

Scotty



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Some people call them "terrorists", these boys have simply been misguided

[Repp]

Thanx for you support medicjim,

Other guys: I'm a half American too, and lived in Florida. I too think the american army is the most powerfull (not the best, but niether is germany)military on earth. I respect every american veteran, and all other members of the armed forces.
BUT...
Why then not just say: We are the most powerfull?
Why do you, to insult me as half german, have to go back in history to WWII. I would kiss every american WWII for the fight against this S.O.B. Hitler.

I just thought that ICEMAN 1 should rethink his thanks, since americans helped to make other nations great (marshall plan). The americans themselves ,EVERYONE!, not just the military made america great. Not since the war of Independance.

OUT
REPP

[This message has been edited by Repp (edited 12-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Repp (edited 12-01-2000).]

[Repp]

Scotty: Hans and Franz were always my favorite on SNL. Jaaaa, no görli men!

Ich hoffe du liebst mich nicht!

Repp

[YTDEVIL]

Aren't supplies part of fighting a war?

Obviously their tactics weren't that great, if they didn't have the supplies to support their doctrine, or maybe the tactics were just too great.......

[josepy]

Yeah they won the game but we had a better punter and kick returns! And?

Scoreboard! Your lucky we did not nuke your ass!

[Repp]

First of all YOU didn't kick any ass. You grandpa probably did.
Second of all compare Germany vs. Russia, England, France, and the USA. It is a shame that the allies didn't win earlyer. If you win against a 6 year old there is no glory. Much less, when the 6 year old keeps fighting for 6 years!! When the Alies would have been better, then the Achses would have been defeted much faster, and some of the horrors would have been stopped. I'm not blaming anybody, since I am VERY thankful for every american who helped to stop that folly. That is no reason for YOU: ICEMAN and josepy to think it was YOUR victory. Instead be proud of the veterans. THEY did all the fighting. YOU didn't do JACK!! I won't mention Vietnam, since I don't want to hurt your pride. In the Gulf war the american forces kick some ass! They proved that no little arabian country fucks with the U.S.
A great and brilliant operation.
BUT...
It didn't make america the country any greater. So thank the WWII veterans for their courage, the vietnam vets for thei courage, and the Gulf War vets for their courage. Yet thank all american citizens for making america a great country. The military is just a small part.

Repp

P.S. Don't give me shit like "we can nuke/kick your ass" it's pathetic.
P.P.S Anybody who still thinks that Mercedes belongs to Chrysler look who just fired who.

[tactical]

Repp, when you pull the pin and drop the grenade step out of the roomm before it goes boom.

If Gremany had such great leaders and soldiers in WW2, how did they make such a serious miscalculatation of our supplies. I mean when you start a conflict you should have a reasonable idea of how you plan on winning. Correct? If not you are not the greta general you thought you were.

We waited to get into the war because at the time the US was thinking locally and not in terms that the whole worlds actions will eventually trickle down to use. That was a mistake we should have knock Germany down long before. We did learn from that and now try to get involved before it is too late.

In the Gulf we had a mad man going after oil, the life blood of the world. We stepped in and knocked him back post haste. End of story.

On Vietnam, we never lost a major engagement. The Military did very well but politics kept us from winning. We left because the public wanted us out. Certainly not because Charlie was winning.

Before you go on about the US, think of it this way. Without the US at the end of WW2 you would have been speaking Russian if you were allowed to live.

We beat you by being a better army plain and simple.

[Repp]

tactical,
somethings you said were right others weren't.
Kesselring and Rommel were brilliant generals. Hitler started the war with america. Which was good, since it led to his downfall. If he wouldn't have started, america would have stayed out for a while. People, please stop using the words: we, you. Neither you guys nor I fought in WWII. Sorry, correct me when you are a WWII vet. Then you can say all you want.
Gulf war: my point exactly! I second you there
Vietnam: Here is a contradiction. You blame german WWII generals that they should have a concept of winning. And miscalculations. How about Vietnam? Ho Chi Minh said that when ... (I don't know the exact Nr.) americans were in Vietnam he would have won the war. He was right, since he knew politics. How about:"We bomb 'em back into the dark ages" (a quote form General Curris E. LeMay- Air force)Did all the bombing help. America fought well, but no army (not U.S., germany, etc.) would have done better.
Just face it: You got your asses kicked in Vietnam. Big deal..America learned. The russians obviously didn't.
Last thing. If the U.S. would not have been. I would be in the Waffen SS now. Good thing america came.
Repp
P.S. I salute all american WWII vets. Thank you.

[tactical]

Repp, you are stuck on, well you put in the last word.

The generals in Vietnam were not allowed to fight an all out war. If they were the end would have been very different. As to getting our( sorry you dont like it when I or others use us,we or our when we were not in the conflict, but we did not ask your opinion on that)asses kicked. That is hardly the case. Just show me one major battle won by the NVA/VC. Just one. Soldiers and Generals can not controlwhat the politicians do but that does not mean they got thier asses kicked. The US Military was not beaten in the field and for that matter has not been beaten. Enough said.

I mean I have suffered working many riots here in the US and on some we engaged the rioters and others we had our hands tied behind our backs. Does that mean the rioters in either case beat us? No. In either case unleashed we would have taken control and won the battle but we work for the citizens/politicians and do what we are ordered to. The military is very much the same. Do you think in the Gulf the military wanted to stop or go in further and make it a complete victory. Politicians said stop and unlike some countries we( I know you hate that too bad) stopped.

Well in Vietnam we tied the hands of the military and they were forced to fight limited engagements. Which the US and allies won clearly. In no military way were we the US lossing the battles on ASIA. The politicians lpost the battle at home and the troops were pulled back but never beaten.

As to WW2. No I did not fight there, but certainly a student of history can see that it went on long before the US got involved. Now lets look at how Germany was doing prior to US troops being involved.

1. One you/Germany vows to destroy England and what happend. Well years later England was still not letting that happen. They did this without the US Troops. Yes they had supplies from us but that is not the same.

2. You/Germany invaded Russia and we all know that ended badly. Yes they also had supplies from us but Germany was not exactly kicking butt there either.

Now all of this was with an all out German effort. So the idea that you would be in the SS is about as stupid as it gets. Without the US the rest of the world would have knocked you off the block anyway. We (there I go again) just sped things up.

You know good does conquer evil in the end. This whole mistique of WW2Germany makes me want to hurl. The German people(good) were lead down the path by a mad man(bad). Good people in need being misled bt evil. Certainly you had some good generals as most armies do but you were getting beaten by the UK and Russia before we stepped in.

What ifs are great and the best would have been if someone told that little man to shut up and sit down before he did all the damage.

Next you will tell how supperior the PSG1 is as a sniper rifle. Nice Boat Anchor, I hope the next country we go against has them!

These opinions are mine and if you find them offensive my work has been done.

I still believe in my flag! The same one we have had for several hundred years. We just keep adding to it.

[Repp]

I don't know how often I have to repeat myself. Do you guys read my post? It seems no.
tactical. Talking about your PSG-1 Bullshit.
READ WHAT I SAID!!! I never fired a single shot from it! I simply said that the field version (MSG90) isn't that heavy. (lighter than the M40 for that matter)

Vietnam generals had interferance? How about german generals. they had to do what hitler said. Even if it was crap. Again I repeat: Good thing it didn't

We will never know what would have happend when the U.S wouldn't have come to aid. I confess I was quite hasty when I posted my theorie. We will never know. END OF DEBATE! No...well if the allies would have...bla bla bla.

I'm not too sure about those numbers I'm about to state, so I'll take them back emediatly when you know it's bull. I just heard somewhere that for every killed VC, the U.S. wasted 1000 bullets. (about) Again I quote Ho Chi Minh: "We don't have to win the war, we just don't have to loose it." What I'm trying to say tactical is that no matter how much battles you would have won, you would have still lost the war. What else would you have done thatn: bombing, infantry, naval support, and Operation Phoenix. America WAS beaten! FACE IT!!!!
No wait correction you won!! Seen the news latly? Bill Clinton was down there. Gues which products they will buy now? You won the war on the long term and with trade.

Again I have to second you with what you say about Hitler to shut up BEFORE. You are absolutly right.
I don't find your opinions offensive, they are just different. I just want to show you that your opinion isn't he only one out there.

TO ALL MEMBERS HERE AT SOC: Thank you all for the debates. I know I molested you and bugged you about topics, but I learned a lot while doing so. I saw flaws in my arguments and mistakes I did. I learned. I hope it had the same effect on you guys.
Repp



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Stay alive!

[Gary]

I’ll say it again; talking politics and religion get you nowhere.

[DFC5343]

Here we go again! And I thought the Canadians had all the angst... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

[Scotty]

Frau Repp,

You are right. No-one that I know of in this debate fought in the "Great War". And yes, too many people still blame Germans for what Hitler did in that time. But only because it's so easy to do.

Having grown up in your country, I know how beautiful the land and some of the women are. But the lesson should be learned that you can't expect to tell a bunch of Americans that their military isn't the best! How can it not be? We copied every other military in the world to make it so!! We even borrowed the Nazi's (SS style) helmet, for crying out loud! We use German machine guns for CT. We use the Italians' pistols. And so on.

But don't take it so hard. I'm not saying that other countries don't give us a run for the money. Well... yes, I guess that's exactly what I'm saying. We're number one. Unfortunately, all great empires crumble. Maybe Deutschland will be the next, eh?

Scotty

PS - As for our future together... Ich liebe Sie als ein Mensch und ein Gegner. Aber steht Ihre Hoffnungen nicht auf, ich spiele diesen Weg nicht!

[Scotty]

Frau Repp,

You are right. No-one that I know of in this debate fought in the "Great War". And yes, too many people still blame Germans for what Hitler did in that time. But only because it's so easy to do.

Having grown up in your country, I know how beautiful the land and some of the women are. But the lesson should be learned that you can't expect to tell a bunch of Americans that their military isn't the best! How can it not be? We copied every other military in the world to make it so!! We even borrowed the Nazi's (SS style) helmet, for crying out loud! We use German machine guns for CT. We use the Italians' pistols. And so on.

But don't take it so hard. I'm not saying that other countries don't give us a run for the money. Well... yes, I guess that's exactly what I'm saying. We're number one. Unfortunately, all great empires crumble. Maybe Deutschland will be the next, eh?

Scotty

PS - As for our future together... Ich liebe Sie als ein Mensch und ein Gegner. Aber steht Ihre Hoffnungen nicht auf, ich spiele diesen Weg nicht!

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Some people call them "terrorists", these boys have simply been misguided

[Paintman]

"Again I quote Ho Chi Minh: "We don't have to win the war, we just don't

have to lose it."'

That's the point Tactical is making. Ho Chi Minh fought according to that philosophy BECAUSE the U.S. military had it's hands tied.



Chris

[Enfield]

Thought I'd wade into is fray...

It's the German vets that I feel sorry for. How many memorials, parades, and respect do they get for what they did? They lost friends, comrades, andfamily members for what is now known to be alost, evil cause. The cause was flawed, but German vets still have to live with the memories.
Repp-- how are German vets treated in Germany? What kind of support do they have?

And if you want to argue Who Won WW2, the laurels have to go to Russia. They fought 80% of the Germany military, lost 20 million people, and fought terrible and costly battles and campaigns.
But all vets deserve our respect and admiration. Whether they stormed the Beaches at Normandy, fought house to house at Stalingrad, or flying over France.

"Lest We Forget"
Enfield

[Repp]

Enfield, you have raised a good point.

No one here knows how it is to grow up and everyone telling you that your grandfather is a murderer. In my case, my other grandpa fought for america in WWII. In Germany WWII vets get treated like ...correction WORSE than shit! Even if you were just a landser, you were already killing jews. Like I said I despise Nazi Germany, but it's time to face a new chapter, learn but not get restricted by our own history. I agree when you say that every vet should be honored.

Scotty: "best" is a very loose term. Nobody can't say that America has the most powerfull force in the world. It takes more however to be "best"
(Look at Jane's Infanterie weapons, and see after which some parts of the M60 was designed) http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

TO ALL: I made a big mistake with discussing politics. Let's stick to guns!
http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[STN]

Most powerful but not "best"?

[RogueExec]

I'd be interested to know what the definition of "best" is in this string....if it means that there isn't another country with a military that could directly challenge the Armed Forces of the United States, then I will wholeheartedly agree with that. We are at the top of the pile.

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"Don't think of it as theft. Think of it as creative augmentation of your operational capabilities."

[Repp]

Here we go...back to personal views.

I can fully understand wheren an american says that the U.S. has the best force. Who is in the position to disagree? I, cautious as usual, say that during the vietnam war, the VC was the better army, since they won.
WAIT!!!!! I prdict a lot of ... we won every engagement, our hands were tied...
Does anybody know the exact nr. of the ammo statistics? All the battles america won didn't get america closer to victory. NO 100,000 other troops would have helped.

I'm sure there are some Vietnam vets here on the board. Although the snipers kicked ass, (1,4 bullets per kill I think) did you have the feeling that america won?
Sure if america would have put ALL effort ONLY itno Vietnam they would have won.

Don't complain, America is World Power Nr.1 so take pride in saying: We are the most powerfull. THAT you can be proud of, because YOU acomplished that.

Repp

P.S. Lets talk about guns, please! All this is getting nowhere, or did anybody here learn something, or changed his opinion?

[RogueExec]

Repp, that "personal" view was also directly stated by the then-outgoing Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Colin Luther Powell, in his final address to the National Press on September 27, 1993. A man who served as an officer in Viet Nam and saw, first hand, the way that politics and incorrect decision making tied the hands of the military commanders. His assertion is based on his 33+ years of service to this nation, as well as his record of achievement during every action involving the deployment of military troops since the early 60's.

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"Don't think of it as theft. Think of it as creative augmentation of your operational capabilities."