Use of bipods

[tango2]

Just got the last Accurate Rifle magazine in my mailbox. In it was an interesting article written by Norm & Rocky Chandler, regarding the use of bipods.
Basically, their view is that the use of any bipod sucks, except when it's used for keeping your rifle upright between series at the range.

I agree with them that many shooters and sniper tend to use the bipod too much, and a large number are unaware that a soft device, such as a backpack, is a much better front rest when it comes to achieving peak accuracy.

There is another aspect to this that they seem to have forgotten, though. They use Carlos Hathcock as a prime example that you do not have to use a bipod to be a succesful sniper. But Hathcock was not only an excellent sniper, he was also a world-class rifle shooter. Let's face it, that is not a selection criteria for most sniper candidates. Shooting off-hand or with a sling as support is a much less steady shooting position for most of us. The use of a bipod simply makes it easier to achieve good accuracy for a normal shooter.

I believe the Chandlers are wrong in their view that the bipod has no place in modern sniper training and employment. It has to be used the right way, though.

I would appreciate any comments.

[RifleMaster]

Tango2,

My opinion is that tactical shooters should learn to SHOOT first without Bipods, packs, sandbags, etc. Then become proficient with them, because they should be used in real engagements. In combat you should utilize anything that could increase your chances of success.

Carl

[tactical]

Tango, I agree with you and will go a step further. I think Chandler has been eating out of too many aluminum pans. It clouds the thinking.

I will shot against anyone that uses a sling over a bipod anyday, if I get to use my bipod. Why not take advantage of a stable rest. I use the swivel Harris, tighten the crap out of the swivel feature so I have to move it at angle.

I have shot 3 and 5 shot groups under six inches at 1000 yards with a bipod so where do I lose my ability to hold group size. I don't

Carl I agree that all shooters should learn all way of shootinga nd then get the easiest way to shoot from.

Cheat like hell and win.

Mike

[USMCSNIPERONE]

Originally posted by tactical:

I will shot against anyone that uses a sling over a bipod anyday, if I get to use my bipod.

Cheat like hell and win.

Mike[/B]
Tactical , When I was a USMC S/S 14 years ago we were not allowed bi-pods on our M-40A1's. We were taught and trained w/expediant rests,IE- tent pole tri-pods,spotting scope stands,slings, ALICE packs,ammo-cans,or whatever else you could find that worked.My STA plt Chief S/S SGT.Terry wrote aletter to H.Q.Marine Corps tryingto get them to adopt the Harris bi-pod for use.They're responce was that it was to fragile for military service.I don't know If its allowed now but the SEALS that were coming to our school at that time had them.P.S. There are Highpower shooters out there that will take that bet!!
SEMPER FI

[snip1er]

I Fully agree with using what ever is available and what ever works for YOU. Just because they didn't have bipods "back in the day" doesn't mean they shouldn't be used today. One thing I thought was interesting in the article was they thought shooting off a buttpack was quicker than a bipod. How does pulling off your LBE/LBV, then slinging it down in front of you, taking a shot, and then putting it all back on make things quicker?

Our guys can always be found using what ever is available like big rocks, tree branches or fallen trees, car hoods, etc. If I have something to set the rifle on them I am not shooting from a sling. Everything becomes a filed expedient rest!

Lastly, for that Harris Swivel Bipod, here is a neat little gizmo that makes setting it much easier and faster http://www.snipersparadise.com/vendors/KMW/KMW.htm

Thomas (from the Nesika article)

[RifleMaster]

Snip1er,

Maybe you could have your spotter dive down quickly in front of you, and you could shoot off of his buttpack. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

Carl

[JY]

I would rather leave the Harris in the arms room. It takes up room, it does not traverse worth a darn, kinda like a rabbit hop, and it's got an awful sound when bumped or attempting to traverse with it.Because the legs are stiff it bounces when fired, when you try to preload the thing it sings like an old screen door spring. It's to darn high on top of it and catches on everything, Mr Murphy loves them. I prefer a 1907 sling and any thing found at hand for a rest...including my spotter if that's all I have.

If I had to be saddled with a bipod I would rather carry a Parker-Hale, heavy but it works the way a bipod should. The "sloppy" old P-H, that was the way a "shooter" discribed it playing with his Harris, "It's to loose for any real support" http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif Well plant the feet, push forward, follow you target, golly it moves smooth, and squeeze the round off, hmmmm...rifle recoils to rear with no pogo bounce, gotta love old "sloppy".

In most cases you will have time to set up an improvised rest, be it a ruck, crossed sticks, what ever. In the instances where you don't, the Harris will be to slow and to ridgid for the close, fast moving targets involved in such encounter, and you better have your M4.

Just my humble opinion, others may like the things, I do not. It's up to each shooter to use what he/she(being PC)is comfortable with and aids in the precision placement of the shot.

Take care...Jim

[tactical]

Look this "We used this" is backword thinking just like that old leather sling.

I make a sling ten times better than the old 1907 sling and it is made of nylon, but many USMC types have stuck with the leather because that is what they used in the day. It does not matter that it compromises you to get into and out of it. It rots. It stretches. We just go back to thats what they used. If you want to see what a sling should be go to my website tacticalintervention.com

HP shooters with sling against a good rifleman at distance with bipod equals a HP getting smoked. Call it steady versus sling rest. Lets throw in a little exercise first and watch the sling guys bounce like hell. An old fat guy like me would take that bet anyday.

By the way bipods rule in the sniper rifle comps these days for absolute precision at distance. On movers I like the pack better but for keeping them all in one hole no contest.

Bipods are not everthing just one more tool that helps greatly.

Certainly someguys can shoot 1/2moa at 1000 yards, sometimes with a sling but a sling has disadvantages. How long can you hold on a bad guy with a sling. A bipod will allow you to be on station quicker and stay longer.

The US Army seems to do OK with Bipods.

Mike

[Sharky]

Gotta agree with Mike on this one. The bipod is just another tool to make your job a little easier. I like Norm and Rocky but sometimes it seems like they just go against something because there is nothing left to go against. They MUST be right because they are Norm and Rocky and they SAID so! I just dont agree with that. There are a lot of guys out there who have forgotten more about Sniping than either of the Chandlers ever knew who choose to keep a low profile. As for me, I'll keep my bipod, thanks anyway Norm.

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F.I.D.O.

[snip1er]

Mike, the article has been finished for some time now but it's been sitting on the editor's desk waiting on corrections and changes. Lots of stuff going on with comp details, classes, and training. We haven't forgotten about you...

Others, Mike does build a great new sling with a "quick" cuff. For Police style shooting it can't be beat. The article referred to is a product review of the sling and will hopefully be up on our website by the middle of next week. I'll post a link once it's up if anybody is interested.

On the bipod again, Yes the Harris does bounce on hard ground like pavement. No arguments there. It does make a very bad sound when the legs are "dropped" into ready position, and yes they can snag on things. But a sling can snag, a drag bag can get hung, a scope caught if not protected, point is anything can and does happen. BUT, if you use something and train with it, you learn these things and how to minimize the impact or problems. Just like shooting off your partner, we practice shooting off a partner in the prone and in the sitting position so that is an option, but not one of the best. If you aren't both in complete sync, like when its a stress shot (IE both out of breath) shots get missed. Any available support is better support than no-sling-unsupported...

JY, I still don't like those Parker-Hales. For me, I would rather shoot off a large pile of Jell-O! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif My hold would be tighter. But again, it's what I practice with and I can often be found shooting from a pile of green Jell-O... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif PS, I am wearing all 5-layers!!! BURRRRRR

Thomas


[This message has been edited by snip1er (edited 03-02-2001).]

[Gary]

No thanks on the bipod and sling. Field expidience and speed are key for me.

[Gary]

Originally posted by tactical:
Look this "We used this" is backword thinking just like that old leather sling.


I always get a kick out of folks here taking subtle shots at guys that have been in the thick of it and really do KNOW what the heck they are talking about.

[tactical]

Gary, glad I gave you a kick. So explain to me why disagreement is wrong. Jsut because I or anyone else says something does not make it the only way.

I have twenty years behind a sniper rifle, so most would think that counted for something. Granted my work has been done in the LE field day in and day out. I guess you being a reserve would know better so expand on the use of slings for us uneducated. Then take a look at my sling and tell me I have no idea how to do this crap. Just what have you added to the field of sniping?

You need some help finding my sling just go to Tacticalintervention.com

This was not an attack on the Chandlers this was just saying I disagreed with what he said. I agree with Sharky that it seems like sometimes the chandlers say things just to get a rise out of folks.

Now please help a poor undereducated cop out with your vast knowledge of slings.

[Sharky]

I just don't see things in such an absolute way. I never used a bipod until I became an instructor. We just always used our ruck. I shot fine off my ruck. I shoot fine off my bipod also. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. I've seen many guys hump a camera tripod and stalk with it. Personally, I never used one and probably never will but I won't berate someone else for using one. That's one of the beautiful things about Sniping. It's about as individual and independent as it gets in the military. As long as you get the job done, nobody cares what you shoot off of. If your choices get you killed the rest of the community will make a mental note not to do whatever it was that got you smoked.

I would also like to clarify that I don't dislike the chandler brothers. I just don't take everything they say as the final answer. They have done much for the profession and I appreciate their efforts. So has Plaster. But I get the feeling from the Chandlers and Plaster that if they say it then that's the end of the discussion. I just don't think so. There are a lot of people out here who have launched a few thousand rounds also besides those guys. I just try to keep all my options open and use what will work for me at the time. If that happens to be a bipod, I'll use it. If the fork of a tree looks like the best option, fine. If it's a ruck, I know how to do that also, no problem. I just think it's best to learn everything I can and keep as many options available as I can. Operational flexibility.

Gary, I'm flattered, I've never been called subtle before. Who are you talkin to anyway you old goat? We were talking about RIFLES! Not smoothbore muskets like you used to use. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

I went to see the USMC "Commandants Own" band and Silent Drill Platoon last night. I've gotta give it you jarheads. When it comes time for looking sharp, you guys take the cake. Awesome display of discipline and skill.

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F.I.D.O.

[Gary]

Tactical,

Do you really think you’re Holier than thou or do you just come off that way? Also, are you really just here to hawk your wares?

You took a shot at a guy that had BTDT unlike you. Who are you to tell him your stuff is better? When you’ve walked the bush and sent rounds down range them maybe I’ll listen to what you have to say. Until then, I think I’ll keep listening to the guys that have really done it, like ol’ JY.

JY, “I prefer a 1907 sling”
Tactical, “Look this "We used this" is backward thinking just like that old leather sling.”

[tango2]

I pretty much have got the answers I expected. It's nice to see that people see things differently, based on what works for tem. One of you said it well, stating that the work as a sniper is pretty much the job in the military where you are given the most slack when it comes to how you actually achieve your goals. A kill is a kill nomatter how you get it.

I also like the fact that so many depend on what is actually tried in the field, on exercises and missions. I think it is a problem in a lot of young soldiers heads that they want to add to their weapon and gear a lot of "nice" devices, only to find out that these same things makes their work harder.

It's important to remember that most tools have negative aspects to them as well: The Harris is light, cheap (meaning easier to persuade supply dorks to buy them) and easy to mount and remove. But it also makes sound and is easy to break.
The Parker-Hale on the other hand is solid as a rock, but heavy and costs a fortune.
The field expedient tripod is easy to make, and well made it does as good a job as any of the other. It's also free. But since the point is that you can make it if there are no other ways to stabilize your weapon in your firing position, you actually have to do the work near your firing position. Or do you mean that you're supposed to do this before you go out on the mission ? If so, why don't you just mount the Harris, or throw it in your ruck ?

Thanks for all the feedback. Anybody send the Chandlers a mail yet ?

[RifleMaster]

Sharky,

A smoothbore! Now that's a good one!

I was even issued a rifle. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

Take care!

Carl

[tactical]

Gary, no I don't thank I am Holly. I just shoot a bit. As to sending rounds down range and being on the other end.BTDT. dont like it either way. You dont have to wear BDU's to have seen things. Been seeing and doing for a long time.

I could go into great detail here but Sharky's last post is as good as I could hope to say. He has expresssed my feeling exactly. Why limit yourself. I shot off my pack exclusively for many years but found times the bipod did better, other times my a sling did better. My sling came about from getting into and out of the 1907 design. Both slings work equally as well when used properly, mine is just easier to get into, out of and quicker.

For selling my slings I could care less if I sell another sling again. I only started making them because when I showed up at comps the guys would ask for them. It is just a hobby. I used it for reference because instead of seeing that this was just a disagreement on equipment, you turned it into someone questioning the Holly Grail.

I just disagree with the idea that a bipod has no use in sniping. It is that simple.

This was never meant to ne personal, but taking a pot shot at guys for not agreeing with Chandler did nothing but make it personal. Now if you have only what Chandler says to base this on we have no real reason to discuss further. I prefer talking about opinions with those that have there own and do not blindly follow with "" '''' Says so it must be true"

[Sharky]

LMAO..... Just trying to lighten the mood around here a little. Seems things are getting a little tense. Gary knows I'm just kidding even if he is old as dirt. I think both of you need to get laid or something. As far as the Chandlers go, I stand by what I said. I have a lot of respect for them and what they have done for Sniping but I don't take what they say as the final word. Like I said, there are a lot of guys out there who aren't as well known who have some good input and experience also. Gary is a prime example as are JY, Carl, Gunny Hicks etc... Steve Suttles is a close personal friend of mine who has over 60 confirmed kills. I have a great amount of respect for him and his knowledge and opinions. But, even he will admit that what worked for him in vietnam doesn't always apply these days and he doesn't always agree with the Chandlers either. I also think John Plaster is a great guy but I sure as hell would never consider him to be the "Ultimate Sniper". He never graduated a military Sniper school and was never employed as a Sniper in an operational unit. Great guy? Yep. Lots of knowledge? Yep. Combat experienced? MACV/SOG RVN. Definitely has combat experience. The "Ultimate Sniper"? Personally, No, I don't think so.

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F.I.D.O.

[Gary]

Tactical,

Re-read my posts and don't call me a Chandler follower.

You took a shot at JY and I called you on it. Apologize to him and we'll call it even.

[tactical]

JY, if you took what I said as an attack I am sorry. I tend to be direct and sometimes that comes across as an attack. I was just stating from my experience I like the bipod in addition to all the other tools I use. Once again I am sorry.

Gary, deal!

Sharky you crack me up

Mike

[Gary]

Tactical,

Deal.

In regards to the sling, I'm not really a fan of them but I'd take a leather match sling over most nylon ones out there these days. I like leather better than anything that I have ever used. Leather holds up longer and when rubbed up against a sharp surface on a patrol, caught on a fence while crossing during a hunt it will fray where the leather would just get scratched.

Also on a national match sling you have numbered holes which makes it easy to adjust when you change shooting positions. It is not as easy to do with a nylon sling even if you mark the sling for the desired measurement it's not something that you can feel when it is used in a low light situation.

On a side note, a good friend of mine has one of your slings and swears by it in competitions but not in the bush.

S/F

[Sharky]

Now don't yall feel better? I think I need a hug. (sniff) Where were you at thursday night gary? AWOL again.

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F.I.D.O.

[JY]

Appreciate the support Gary, thanks Lt.

Just got in from the hills, and another day of glad I didn't lug that durn bipod. Was above the tree line at app. 12000+ feet, at that elevation each oz. counts, I'd rather carry a few more ozs of water than the aluminun wonder. Most shots will be long cross valley with your guts flat on granite, again not to conducive to the Harris you'll get the pogo bounce violent enough to start a avalanche.

If in a nice cozy fixed position, where sitting watching is the main duty a bipod is great, prop the rifle up and have another cup of coffee. I've been at this for way over 30 years and have seen impatience rewarded by the use of crutches, instead of learning the skill use a crutch, a support, why learn that old fashioned sling I can prop it up and shoot as well(almost maybe)...why waste time learning all those positions...I'll use a crutch. I learned this trade the old fashioned way with a 1907 sling cutting into my arm and my forearms going numb from the pressure, and followed my trade through the bush with the red ants chewing me raw,to the sands so hot it would blister your bare hand and on through to the Balkans and the broken glass and rubble of MOUT. In most the crutch is of little use, it tangles, it sinks, it bounces, it doesn't traverse with a moving target...and most do not sit and let you range and shoot them, they are fleeting at best. The bipod is a lot like the ghillie, a tool, one that really isn't of that much use but a tool of the trade none the less. Learn the 1907 and you're good to go anywhere, rely on the crutch and you'll never win the snipers greatest medal..gray hair of age, being an old sniper. Skill in the field, woodscraft and marksmanship real marksmanship not with crutches is what it takes. This is all borne out in the field, skill wins impatience is death. This is a trade of killing not a phoney sport to get off on, you learn it or become one of the 80% casualty count that's the norm in this trade.

There made you sit through my experience and ideas, sorry for the long tirade. Wish I were better at writing my feelings and beliefs.

Take care...Jim

[RifleMaster]

Jim,

You said it all!!

Take care!

Carl

PS: Were you hunting or practicing? I'm jealous!

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 03-03-2001).]

[tactical]

JY, you said it very well. I love slings also, but my piss poor writings have lost that in here. All I have seemed to do is piss some of you off. For that I am sorry. I used the 1907 sling for many years and my first slings were just modified 1907's. I wanted something I could get into and out of quick, hence the quick cuff sling was born.

Kent Gooch, who most of you know and I for one have the utmost respect for saw my sling and suggested I try nylon. I went nutts because I thought nylon, frankly sucked. I found some nylon 4000 lbs test and made some slings. I have beeen using nylon for two plus years with only good stuff to tell about it. The stuff I have does not fall apart from solvents, and is abrasive resistent. Good stuff. Here is the good stuff. You can take my sling, unhooked and go to a seated position in less than five seconds and hit like you had a match sling on your arm. Then in two seconds be out of it. You dont have to do the funky chicken to get into it so that is so that is a big plus. My swivels are covered with elastic so they are quiet and the thing can get long enough to go over a pack or short enough to get out of the way.

As to dragging a rifle with a sling attached I think it depends on conditions. Things can catch, things can rattle(not mine)

Gary, thanks for addressing this via email and leaving mu ego in tact. Sorry for the misunderstanding and Semper Fi

[JY]

Hi Carl,


No such luck, had some young long rifles up there beating mountain shooting into their heads...it's all either up or down shots...gotta love it, and nice strange winds http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif Show'ed them how to use pitons to hold their log books down in the wind http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lol.gif

Take care, my friend...Jim

[Gary]

Originally posted by Sharky:
Where were you at thursday night gary? AWOL again.

Sharkman,

Josepy and Glenn (Duel Cool) met GySgt. Hicks and myslef up at Pendleton for some beers then we hit the town with Bill skiles (NCIOC 1 Mar Div S/S School). You need to get out to So Cal one of these days.

[Sharky]

There's a chance I may get to San Diego sometime this summer. You far from there?

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F.I.D.O.

[Gunny Hicks]

I'm getting to know too many peope on these forums, and it is begiining to scare me.

JY: You refer to Gary as Lt. ? He's still just another Gunny to me.

Gary: By the way, thanks for stopping by the bunker Thursday night. I was suprised to see Josepy and Duel Cool stop by.
The students definately enjoyed what you had to share with them. Thanks.
Hope you liked that Arrogant Bastard Ale.

[tactical]

Guys, I completely agree that LE and Military techniques have been way different. I have been spending the last ten years learning the military way and applining that to LE. I think it makes a good balance between precision and pratical shooting.

LE tends to be all precision and no tactics such as stalking, slings range estimation, wind reading. I have been working to change that. I feel that you train for the worst case and the easy stuff seems way easy. That is one reason I am going "Joint Use" with the USMC to learn a different approach to stalking from the Army, FBI and other things I have already learned.

So when I am down in So. Calif I will bring plenty of beer money for the likes of HOGs. You can either drink with me or take turns kicking me around.

JY shoot me an email and give me a chance to show you what many have though of as an improved 1907 sling design. I would like your feedback.

Mike

[JarheadNY]

Not a Tactical Operator, just a shooter. I enjoy taking part in paper target, KD matches, staged at distances from 100 to 300 yards. My rifle of choice is Rem 700 VLS varmint rifle in .223, and aside from glass bedding, firepolishing, adjusting the trigger, and developing handloads, all done at home, it's a pretty much stock rifle. Best groups to date are in the .3MOA range, and the average is somewhere about 1/2MOA. Glasss is an aging Tasco 8-24X40 AO HighCountry, mounted in a plain-jane Leupold JR mount. Similar work on a friend's 10FP .223 has delivered best of .25MOA, avg 1/2MOA. Strangely, both rifles eat the same load best, down to OAL.

This performance is 100yd, at 300 yd in matches, we tend to shoot about 2/3MOA, and find that puts us in the top 15-20% of the pack.

We shoot off cncrete pads and gravel pads mostly. We are gradually abandoning the Harris Bipod for the reasons stated above, too much bounce. These are non-swivelers, so it's probably not a good example of bipods to base evaluations on. Have also used the Versa-Pod, OK to shoot off, but kinda floppy. Not world beaters by any means in our hands, others may differ.

Our current rests are small frameless day packs with our change of shirt and trousers folded against the side the rifle contacts. We find it's easier to use, tracks horizontally better, and has no appreciable bounce. In a drag race, getting it off the back and into use is probably slower than swinging down a Harris, but the difference is probably less than a half minute. When engaging paper, that's not a real threat.

We both agree we wouldn't bring the bipods along on a hunt, even for woodchucks. Extra weight, balance is odd, most of the time, we get better support off the pack or available support. In the balance, it's usually more dead weight than something usefull. Also tends to get snagged in the brush, and we're carrying the packs either way, anyway.

For us, we're not going to be spending so much time zeroing our rifles to use an attachment that we don't use much anyway.

This is all highly subjective, and is not meant to contradict anything said above. It's just a personal slant.

Greg Langelius