Silencers/Surpressors

[kodiakrush]

i know that sniper's minimal engagment range is usualy aroud 450 meters giver or take. But since snipers are supposed to make their shots out of range of the enemy's arms, what pupose does a silencer serve for a sniper?

[Linus]

The noice can, if analyzed correctly, reveal the distance and direction to the sniper, pinpointing his position. This will most certainly result in mortar/artillery fire. Me no like...

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Honestas supra omnis

[Sharkbait]

Linus right....big boom bad, very bad!

Pop em, slip home, drink beer..live to do it again....

[JY]

Hi KR;

A suppressor does a few things to you round, one it slows it down this decreases your range. depending on the can used you will cut your range in from 1/2 to 1/4th normal. Second the muzzle energy is lowered too. BUT the suppressor will also eliminate all visable signiture when fired, and will also cause those around your target to get the impression that the shot was fired 180 degrees from your location because of the sonic boom of the round passing their location. This gives you a much better chance to get the heck outta Dodge before they figure out what's happening.

All figures are dependant on the suppressor rifle combination used but gives you a fair idea of the use of the suppressor. Currently they are used on 7.62X51mm, .50BMG, and other rifles.And of couse the .22LR hush puppies.

Take care...Jim

[tango2]

I hate to say this, but this is wrong, and wrong again. The suppressor neither slows the round down noticeably, cuts your engagement range in half nor eliminates the blast of the rifle.

What it does do however is mask most of the muzzle blast. It might also, if designed correctly, virtually eliminate the recoil. This makes firing a .308 very much like firing a .22.

The supersonic crack of the bullet does not disappear unless you load your rounds down to subsonic speed. That would of course effectively limit your engagement range.

A suppressor is all about trapping hot gas escaping from the muzzle, and slowing it down. The only effect a well made suppressor will have on the impact of the bullet is that it will impact somewhat lower, due to the extra weight on the barrel. Correction tables for this are made easily.

No offence, just hate to see misconceptions spread on this excellent board :-)

[Linus]

I believe it is simply a matter of JY actually talking about silencers and accidentally using the word "suppressor", as in flash suppressor. Right?

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Honestas supra omnis

[JY]

tango2;

If you read the above you will see that it is a general post, dependant upon the type of suppressor used as stated.While the old M14SS-1 for the M21 SWS does not lower MV it does change the POI due to changing the barrel harmonics, this can be lower, higher or left or right change of POI, depending on what portion of the harmonics wave it disturbs. So with any muzzle mounted can a rezero is needed before use.

The statement "a suppressor neither slows the round down noticeably, cuts your engagement range in half nor eliminates the blast of the rifle" is wrong. A vented barrel suppressor does both, all suppressors are not muzzle mounted add ons. because the vented barrel begins to bleed off gas a few inches from the chamber it in effect shortens the barrel length performance wise. This results in a much lower MV, and a shortening of range. The "blast of the rifle" is what all suppressors attempt to eliminate this is the muzzle report,not the sonic boom of the bullets passage, but the hot gases expanding and burning upon exiting the muzzle(burning powder and gases). A suppressor slows this down and cools(this elimnates or lessens muzzle flash caused by burning powder being expelled at the muzzle) it generally by swirling the gases internally by the use of baffles either solid or mesh. This is why when a suppressor is abused by rapid fire the report increases in loudness, it fills up with the slowed and cooling gases until it is full, then with no more room the gases escape from the muzzle with the same speed and temp as a normal rifle resulting in LOUD. A vented usually will also slow standard ammunition to subsonic before it's exit.

Currently SOCOM and NSW are testing some integral suppressors for the 7.62X51mm and the .300WM that use a one piece internal component that does not lower the MV and has all the benefits of a vented barrel and the muzzle mounted, with a total parts count of between 2 and 4 parts. But as with the muzzle mounted cans the effectiveness improves with a cooling liquid being used in the can to lower gas temp. But the actual barrel length intact prior to the suppressor dictates it's MV you are not going to get 26 inch barrel MVs from it but 18 inches or what ever. For a 26 inch barrel(7.62X51mm) you get app. 2600 fps, each inch removed will lower it 25 fps(a ball park figure). So for a 8 inch decrease in actual barrel length you've already lost 400 fps (conservative) resulting in a 2400 fps actual MV for a weapon the same length as a standard. Not to bad, but has lowered your effective range and ME (muzzle energy) by app. 1/6th of a normal rifles. And this is the best suppressor going today.

I'm by no means a suppressor "expert" but I have enough experience using the various types to understand the basic principals used in each and actual effect when using. The MP5SD, for example, is a very effective integral, it does lower MV and ME to the point that it is very similar to a .380 in performance. Because of it's design it "spits" carbon from it's ejection port,pressure develops in the can before the round exits the muzzle placing a back pre
ssure in the weapon as the bolt cycles spitting carbon and lube. Your ears tell you the standard rounds have been slowed to subsonic, you here the chug of the weapon followed by the thunk of the round impacting,and you fire semi auto as not to "overload" the can.When fired "full auto" the can rapidly fills and you can hear the weapon getting louder and the can gets hotter until it's a loud as a normal MP5.

No offence taken, and hope none taken by you. I too hate to see misconceptions spread on this excellent board http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

Take care...Jim

[This message has been edited by JY (edited 01-12-2001).]

[JY]

Thanks Linus! But they really are suppressors, sound suppressors, no such thing as a silencer. Take care, my friend...Jim

[Frenchie]

How often are silencers and surpressors used in the field?

[This message has been edited by Frenchie (edited 01-13-2001).]

[Linus]

Jim;
Your welcome! Thanks for clearing the haze on silencer/suppressor terminology. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Frenchie;
Not too often. Unless we're talking flash suppressors, that is...

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Honestas supra omnis

[Gunny Hicks]

Frenchie: In the Marine Corps. Never seen one. And as far I know, there none tucked away for future use.

[JY]

Hi Frenchi;

The suppressor is a special purpose device and not used that often. It has been used CT/DA at times, for the elimination of animals and such. The other use is on .50 rifles to eliminate the firing signiture and dust clouds associated with that type of weapon. It also quiets the weapon down to 7.62X51mm levels too, and eliminates the ear killing screetch from the muzzle break.

take care...Jim

[671grains_of_diplomacy]

I read an interesting article in Guns & Ammo a while back. It said some cans would actually increase MV as much as 200fps. They tested a variety of cans on the AR10.

Dont flame me, im just passing on info

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"You only live once, but if you work it right, once is enough."



[This message has been edited by 671grains_of_diplomacy (edited 01-16-2001).]

[Tuukka]

I have a new can by ASE-UTRA for my M4, a local company here,it will in all likelyhood increase MV. And its only about 5" in length and it will drop the noise at the firers ear below hearing damage level, its so light you dont even notice its there.

[Cardinal]

Originally posted by JY:
tango2;
The statement "a suppressor neither slows the round down noticeably, cuts your engagement range in half nor eliminates the blast of the rifle" is wrong. A vented barrel suppressor does both, all suppressors are not muzzle mounted add ons. because the vented barrel begins to bleed off gas a few inches from the chamber it in effect shortens the barrel length performance wise. This results in a much lower MV, and a shortening of range. The "blast of the rifle" is what all suppressors attempt to eliminate this is the muzzle report,not the sonic boom of the bullets passage, but the hot gases expanding and burning upon exiting the muzzle(burning powder and gases). A suppressor slows this down and cools(this elimnates or lessens muzzle flash caused by burning powder being expelled at the muzzle) it generally by swirling the gases internally by the use of baffles either solid or mesh. This is why when a suppressor is abused by rapid fire the report increases in loudness, it fills up with the slowed and cooling gases until it is full, then with no more room the gases escape from the muzzle with the same speed and temp as a normal rifle resulting in LOUD. A vented usually will also slow standard ammunition to subsonic before it's exit.



Does all firearms w/suppressors use the vented barrel? No, most don't. The MP5SD does, but it's used for short ranges anyway.


Originally posted by JY:

Currently SOCOM and NSW are testing some integral suppressors for the 7.62X51mm and the .300WM that use a one piece internal component that does not lower the MV and has all the benefits of a vented barrel and the muzzle mounted, with a total parts count of between 2 and 4 parts. But as with the muzzle mounted cans the effectiveness improves with a cooling liquid being used in the can to lower gas temp. But the actual barrel length intact prior to the suppressor dictates it's MV you are not going to get 26 inch barrel MVs from it but 18 inches or what ever. For a 26 inch barrel(7.62X51mm) you get app. 2600 fps, each inch removed will lower it 25 fps(a ball park figure). So for a 8 inch decrease in actual barrel length you've already lost 400 fps (conservative) resulting in a 2400 fps actual MV for a weapon the same length as a standard. Not to bad, but has lowered your effective range and ME (muzzle energy) by app. 1/6th of a normal rifles. And this is the best suppressor going today.



The loss in velocity comes from the shorter barrel, not the suppressor. Who says you have to shorten the barrel in order to use a suppressor? Just use the standard 24/26" barrel. The overall length of the rifle will ofcourse increase.
My SIG SG 551 SWAT with a Brügger & Thomet suppressor, had a 30 fps INCREASE in velocity with the suppressor installed.

Originally posted by JY:

I'm by no means a suppressor "expert" but I have enough experience using the various types to understand the basic principals used in each and actual effect when using. The MP5SD, for example, is a very effective integral, it does lower MV and ME to the point that it is very similar to a .380 in performance. Because of it's design it "spits" carbon from it's ejection port,pressure develops in the can before the round exits the muzzle placing a back pre
ssure in the weapon as the bolt cycles spitting carbon and lube. Your ears tell you the standard rounds have been slowed to subsonic, you here the chug of the weapon followed by the thunk of the round impacting,and you fire semi auto as not to "overload" the can.When fired "full auto" the can rapidly fills and you can hear the weapon getting louder and the can gets hotter until it's a loud as a normal MP5.

No offence taken, and hope none taken by you. I too hate to see misconceptions spread on this excellent board http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

Take care...Jim

[This message has been edited by JY (edited 01-12-2001).]

On sniper rifles one would use a rifle with a standard length barrel and a suppressor. IF you need maximum sound reduction you could use subsonic rounds. Either rounds loaded subsonic by the factory, or supersonic rounds in a vented barrel.

You can of course buy speciality rifles/calibers like .500 Whisper. A subsonic round with long range.

[JY]

Hi Cardinal;

Nice critique of my post, if you read it closer you will notice that's what was said.As far as a military sniper rifle, by using a muzzle mounted can you make the weapon much to long.And as stated in the original post MV is DICTATED BY THE BARREL LENGTH PRIOR TO THE VENTS OR SUPPRESSOR The current rifles being tested as a sniper weapon system using suppressed technologies use a 10 inch suppressor insert, in a 28" overall barrel length. This system is the one mentioned as being tested by NSW http://www.geocities.com/m24expert/stw_suppressed_sws_overall_10_inch_supp.jpg STW SWS with 28 inch "barrel" containing 10 inch suppressor insert. http://www.geocities.com/m24expert/suppressor_insert_stw.jpg 10inch insert partialy removed.

This is the system being tested in .300WM and 7.62X51mm. The rifle "one would use" in the US military, what is used in play by civies I am not familar with.

Jim



[This message has been edited by JY (edited 02-01-2001).]

[tango2]

It's been a while since I visited this board, so I was glad to see that meanwhile, people have been continuing the interesting discussion regarding suppressors / silencers. Glad to see that nobody's taken any offence.

To return to a couple of my original points:

1 There is no device that can rightfully be called a silencer. The reason for this is that no device silences a weapon - meaning removing all the emitted sound. They only suppress sound - therefore suppressors.

2 When we talk about suppressors, we should talk about things that are attached to weapons. On this board, I would think that sniper wepons would be the most interesting wepon to discuss. An MP5SD is not a wepon that has a suppressor attached, it is rather a suppressed weapon system. The barrel is shortened, ventilated, and it can't be used (reasonably) without the suppressor. Of course it has a lower MV than a normal MP5. Same with the specialized Whisper ammunition/weapons

3 Suppressors do not necessarily have to add too much in length to a sniper weapon. I just had one made for my .308 sniper rifle, and it only adds about 10". I do not find tha unacceptable in most situations. The reason it builds so little is that the expansion chamber is to the rear. The suppressor goes almost all the way back to the stock. What this suppressor also does, by the way, is work as a muzzle brake. Felt recoil is reduced to about that of a .22. Nice side effect, I think. A while ago I shot a .300 WM sniper rifle with this type of suppressor attached - no earplugs, much less recoil than a .308.

My main point is that suppressors definately have a place in modern military sniping. The only problem now is that there are so many misconceptions and fairy tales about how they work. Suppressors being prohibited in most states doesn't help this, of course.

[mcdude]

Well, glad to see that there are some well informed and professoinal folks in this forum. I have seen SO MUCH BS posted on the webabout "silencers", etc. There is such a glut of idiots out there, trying to impress others with thir wizrad-like abilities, and omniscience in 'cool guy' crafts, like sniping etc.

Tango and JY, you guys sound like you have done a little homework. I like this forum....I shall return, anon.

[whisky8]

Jim,
Have you seen the Warsaw Pact suppressor for the AK? It has internal baffles, and it fires the round through a rubber disc which is about 1/2in thick. The disc has to be replaced after a certain amount of shots being fired through it. Very quiet for an AK, but only good out to about 100-150 mtrs.

W8

[Tuukka]

I believe it´s the PBS suppressor, we´ve seen a few here in Finland,tests were in a weapon magazine here.

[JY]

W8

Yes , it's similar to the old Sionics can. The replacable wipe will last for several hundred rounds but as it wears the can gets louder. Had a chance to fire a AKS-74U with the PBS and BS-1 grenade launcher, both operated very well in concealing location and type of weapon being fired. The can on it was stepped like a rifle cartridge in shape, on an AK-47 a can with the PBS nomenclature was straight sided, so think the PBS just means "silent fire device" and not a specific suppressor.

Take care...Jim