Muzzle Velocity

[RifleMaster]

How does muzzle velocity affect accuracy?

[Linus]

flatter/straighter trajectory.

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Honestas supra omnis

[RifleMaster]

Linus,

Why?

Carl

[Sharky]

LMAO@carl,, And awaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy we go............

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F.I.D.O.

[RifleMaster]

Sharky,

Let's peel this onion!

Have to start at the outer surface.



[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 01-04-2001).]

[Sharky]

Sounds great to me boss. Let's just have a little ballistics class right here. I would freakin love it. Start with internal, then external and then maybe we can find someone to talk about terminal. I love to learn and might even be able to pitch in a little every now and then. God, then we could get into BC and reloading and fireforming and....and.....uhhhhh. Ok, I think this will be a great idea. Carl, are you gonna volunteer to be the HMFIC of this class?

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F.I.D.O.

[RifleMaster]

Wellll...OK, if you insist! We may have some fun and learn something. But, us old guys won't benefit because we are so forgetful! HMFIC! I always follow, especially around minefields and booby traps.

OK...If this muzzle velocity affects accuracy by improving it, then I'll want as much as I can get. But, what if it doesn't or what if there is a point where this muzzle velocity decreases accuracy! Before I decide on how much of this muzzle velocity I want, I think I better understand WHAT this muzzle velocity is and HOW it affects accuracy. Help me out here. What is this muzzle velocity? How does it affect accuracy?

[Gunny Hicks]

Sgt. York didn't need knowledge of muzzle velocity. He simply put the pointy tip thing on the top end of his rifle over the target, pulled the trigger, and damned if he didn't hit what he was aiming at.

[Sharky]

Muzzle Velocity= speed of the projectile, usually measured in feet per second, at the point that the projectile becomes free of the muzzle of the weapon.

Ok, thats part one. Now who gets part two?

This could get GOOD!

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F.I.D.O.

[Sharky]

Originally posted by Gunny Hicks:
Sgt. York didn't need knowledge of muzzle velocity. He simply put the pointy tip thing on the top end of his rifle over the target, pulled the trigger, and damned if he didn't hit what he was aiming at.

That's why the best snipers can't shoot as well as an average high-power shooter.



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F.I.D.O.

[Linus]

OH, FUCK ME!!!

Well, apparently you allready are...

WTF, I serves me right for trying to be a cheesedick smartass! BEEN HAD! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

HMIC, may I please be excused, I seem to have mislaid my cerebellum, sir?

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Honestas supra omnis

[Sharky]

Ok, I'll take a quick shot at this.

Bullets start dropping as soon as they leave the muzzle. Gravity. The arc of the projectile from muzzle to target is known as line of flight. The line from your eye to the target is known as line of sight. In a perfect shooting world (without gravity) these two lines would be parallel. As it is, line of flight at long range will cross line of sight which is why we have to make sight adjustments. Moving the sights actually adjusts the axis of the bore to compensate for the gravitational pull on the round. As the round flies downrange gravity has a more drastic effect on the round the farther it travels and the more it slows down or loses velocity. Theoretically, the more velocity that the round has, the closer the line of flight will be in relation to the line of sight. The closer the relation between the two equals a flatter trajectory or line of flight which means less arc on the projectile and less drastic sight adjustments at longer ranges. Both of which are good things. Now, as far as when too much velocity starts adversely affecting accuracy, I have no idea. I've never had that problem. As far as external ballistics go, it would seem that as long as the projectile is in stable flight that you would want all the muzzle velocity you can get. BUT, this doesn't even begin going into internal ballistics and over-pressures etc that can be brought about trying to get too much velocity from your load.Explaining this isn't as easy as I thought. First time I ever discussed ballistics without a dry-erase board handy. Ok Carl, maybe you can explain what I'm attempting to say in a simpler way and probably make a few corrections as well.

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F.I.D.O.

[0802]

Although higher MV means that a weapon shoots flatter and requires less windage to compensate for cross wins. Higher MV in itself doesn't equate to an increase in accuracy (the ability to repeatable hit a predicted point). All projectiles show increased accurate in a specific speed range, just if they were pushed too fast or too slow they lose accuracy. What that specific speed is unique for that weapon and is caused by a lot of variables like barrel harmonics and twist rate for rifling. So yes MV is important, but it is possible to decrease the accuracy of a weapon by shooting a projectile too fast, but you will normally have a catastrophic weapons failure if you try to get the projectile too fast, because many of the current rounds are loaded close to the safe limits.

[Linus]

OK;

Now you've got me so confused I feel like I'm running around with my head up my a$$ groping for the light switch: Is Carl serious about this question? For a moment there I was completely convinced he was just jacking around, but now...

Help me, Sharki-wan Kenobi, you are my only hope... (BTW, is 0802 a droid? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif)

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Honestas supra omnis

[Gunny Hicks]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sharky:
[B] That's why the best snipers can't shoot as well as an average high-power shooter.

Curious...on what premise is this statment based ?

[RifleMaster]

Sharky and o8o2 are removed from the KP roster! I believe both are right-on!

More later.

Off to work I go!



[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 01-05-2001).]

[RogueExec]

Originally posted by Gunny Hicks:


Curious...on what premise is this statment based ?



<Passing the newly-opened can of worms to the Sharkman>

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Never under any circumstances take a sleeping pill and
a laxative on the same night.

[This message has been edited by RogueExec (edited 01-05-2001).]

[Sharky]

Originally posted by Gunny Hicks:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sharky:
[B] That's why the best snipers can't shoot as well as an average high-power shooter.

Curious...on what premise is this statment based ?



Hmmm, Well gunny, it's based on 11 years of experience and competition in both areas. It's not a slam on snipers. Don't take it that way. I was a Sniper long before I started shooting high-power and thats where my loyalty will always be. BUT, When it comes down to pure Rifle Marksmanship, the high-power shooters have it in spades. It's not a slam, it's just a simple fact.

The high-power guys are simply forced to magnify all of the fundamentals of Marksmanship much more so than a Sniper. Now, before we get too deep into this, let me clarify by saying that, yes, I know, HP shooters don't have to drag their nuts over and through 2 klicks of hell just to take that one shot. I agree. Totally. No argument there. I am speaking strictly in terms of Rifle Marksmanship. Fieldcraft is not part of this debate. Snipers typically shoot at 20X20 or 20X40 silhouette iron maiden targets. From the prone if at all possible. HP shooters are shooting at 200 yards from a standing unsupported position at a target that is significantly smaller (at least if you're competitive and can keep it in the black). I don't need to continue with that line of thought as I am sure you know the course of fire for an across-the-course match.

When I graduated Sniper school I was shooting as well as most of my instructors and looking back now I had quite an ego because I thought I was a real "Shooter". About a year later I got out and wound up in the ARNG. On a little weekend trip with the local guard unit I ran into a 1st LT who was watching me shoot and he told me I was a decent shot but still had a lot to learn. I didn't know the guy from Adam and told him to meet me on the range after drill and we'd see who had something to learn.

Well, you see where this is going. This LT was a former enlisted Marine who shot on the Corps high-power team and is a double distinguished High-Master. He thrashed me in about 5 minutes flat and as I was slinking away with my tail between my legs in embarassment, he offered to teach me how to shoot. I had the fieldcraft, and I had some basic skills from Sniper school but that was about it. I didn't know that there was so much that I didn't know.

I was never that great of a high-power shooter but I can honestly say that the experience made me ten times better when I was shooting on the Sniper side of the house. Time and again I saw HP shooters go through Sniper school and most of the time they wound up being the honor-grads of their class. I also watched a lot of Snipers try to move into HP shooting and have their ass handed to them. Myself included. Fieldcraft is much easier learned than Marksmanship.

To take this even further, you can take a 3-position small-bore shooter and once he learns how to deal with the wind he will usually kick some serious butt on the HP range. Take a HP shooter and put him in a small-bore match and they generally don't fare too well. Why? Because small-bore shooters have to magnify the fundamentals even more than HP shooters. Air rifle shooters even more so than small-bore shooters. Like I said, I am a Sniper. Not the greatest but I'm not afraid to shoot with anybody. I'm also not afraid to admit that when it comes to true Marksmanship that the paper punchers have a lot better grasp of it than most Snipers.

Snipers are taught and practice good marksmanship skills but the other disciplines are levels above sniping. On another point, I am sure that as a Marine you had much better marksmanship skills than I did as a soldier in the Army. That sucks but, it's still a fact. The Army no longer teaches true marksmanship like the Corps does. The average Marine cook can shoot circles around most soldiers in the Army. You can watch Joe Snuffy Private in the Army shoot 28/40 on his qual course and ask him what is wrong and he'll say that he doesn't know. Ask him what he is going to do to raise his score and he'll generally say, "shoot again". They just haven't been adequately taught fundamental marksmanship skills and they get no feedback from the targets. If they hit it, it drops. If they don't, it keeps standing up. They generally have no idea WHY they missed, only that they missed, and they generally have no idea what they need to do to correct it. The marksmanship instructors generally haven't had any more training than that private and aren't able to help very much.

My point is that you may have a better foundation in the Corps and take it to another level as a Sniper. But, there are many levels of Marksmanship over and above sniping. A lot of Snipers don't want to see this because they are comfortable where they are at in their Sniper world. They can consistently hit that iron maiden at 800 and think that's good enough. I am a great example of this mentality. I was hell on the sniper range but when I tried HP shooting and got on the 600 slow fire, I got my ass handed to me because hitting the target just wasn't good enough anymore. It took 10's and X's and that was a whole new ballgame.

Once again, I'm not slamming any Snipers out there as I am one myself. But, I think that there is a lot to be learned from the other disciplines and that Snipers should not be satisfied with putting the pointy thing on the end of the barrel on the target and pulling the trigger and hit what they are shooting at. As Snipers, we are much better shots than the average soldier or Marine. But in the big picture most of us still could learn a lot about shooting and if we want to be the best that we can be, we should strive to learn evrything we can about shooting and take it back to the Sniping community and apply it there.



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F.I.D.O.

[RifleMaster]

Sharky ... You're on point!

I think you got yourself out of that shit burning detail that Gunny Hicks was going to assign you!

Seriously, It has also been my experience that MOST LE and military tactical shooters can't shoot as well as average high power competitors. This issue can be easily settled at the next high power match!

However, I think we need to keep in mind that the required skills are quite different.

Back to work!

[Sharky]

Very true on the skills. But like I said, I am speaking strictly about marksmanship. That applies to everyone. No matter what team your on or what type of weapon you're shooting. Marksmanship is Marksmanship is Marksmanship. The fundamentals will still apply in every situation.

P.S. Linus, you really need to be talking to Yoda (AKA:Riflemaster) if you're confused. Gunny Hicks is also a Sniper from way back and will have a lot of good insight as well. As far as 0802 goes, he is a cannoncocker (read Field Artillery) and knows his shit about ballistics.

We all can learn alot from each other. If you know something, speak up. If you don't, listen and learn. That's what it's all about. Just don't get your feelers hurt if somebody disagrees with what you've said. If someone says something you don't necessarily agree with, fine. But don't just dismiss it out of hand. Ask for clarification about why they think that way and give it fair consideration. They just might change your mind or teach you something.

Gunny Hicks could have started flaming me about my comment but instead only asked me to clarify, which I tried to do. That's the way it's done. There are many experienced shooters on this board with a wealth of knowledge. However, everyone has had different experiences throughout their careers that shaped their opinions. That's called "Lessons learned". Everyones experiences have been different. The best always know that there is more out there to be learned and are never satisfied with what they know. The goal here is to share that knowledge and experience so that you can learn from the experiences of others instead of the hard way where it may cost you your life in the learning.

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F.I.D.O.

[This message has been edited by Sharky (edited 01-05-2001).]

[Gunny Hicks]

Sharky: Outstanding posts !!!

You leave me with nothing to argue with you about.

Perhaps Gary is lurking in e-world reading this, and can contribute ?

Having been a PMI for the Corps, and taught Basic and Advanced Marksmanship skills to Marines. Having also been a Scout/Sniper (since Mathusela retired it seems) I have worked with many great marksmen, most of whom are destinguisehd competition shooters.

Again...good post. Thanks.

[Ranger002]

Ditto what the Gunny said,
Hell...What do I know about Marksmanship anyway I was a 60 gunner :-)
William Hazen

[Sharky]

Gunny Hicks: Thank goodness!!! Ha-Ha...
Your background speaks for itself and I was really dreading that debate. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this muzzle velocity mystery as well as any comments from Gary and the rest of the jarhead crew. You guys can definitely bring a lot of knowledge to the table. Definitely more than I.

Hazen: No excuse, I was weapons squad Gun1. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

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F.I.D.O.

[RifleMaster]

Sharky ... Truely outstanding points!!

Yoda! LMAO http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

Where do we go now?

I believe we all agree that Marksmanship is fundamental to sport and tactical shooting. And, we all want to improve our Marksmanship so that we can achieve our goals/missions. So, what options for improvement do we have? Equipment performance and individual skill come to mind. If we were to choose equipment performance, what item would enhance our Marksmanship the most?

[Sharky]

IMHO, If you're talking about the gun, I would say that having a quality barrel would be the most important piece of equipment. If you don't have a good-shooting barrel, everything else is limited to the performance of the barrel. You can have all the latest whiz-bang gizmos you want but, without a good barrel you'll never be competitive. Or were you talking about other than the gun? If you were, what type of shooting are we doing?

Hey, am I the only one around here that can speak up? Come on guys, this is a great learning opportunity. Let's hear from the Marine side of the house also. And you too Linus. And anybody else out there. Being a Sniper is not a requirement. Only a love of marksmanship. I wanna hear from Josepy, Whitey, Gary, Gunny Hicks, 0802, JY, Bobby etc.....

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F.I.D.O.

[Gator50]

Sharky,
I believe you have said it all dude!! One of my pet peeves is to go to a Military/Law Enforcement school and see Mr. Joe COOL, walk around like he is the Greatest Shooter in the universe, when basically, he doesn't know squat. Me..I ADMIT I don't know SQUAT, and I am constantly striving to improve my skills. That is why I would rather go shoot with Civilians than fellow LE guys. Learning Curve is greatly improved there. Face it..Civilians devote much more time to learning, practicing and shooting than a majority of LE and Military shooters. They have the budget..where as.we dont. (FYI- I am both LE and recently retired Military).
Bobby

[Gunny Hicks]

Holding your rounds in the X ring, while firing in the off-hand position. That is the essence of comp shooting. Military Snipers have a different agenda when they go out. Unless it is an IHR situation, Center Mass is what we need to hit. Does this require the precission that Comp. Shooters need to score high ? Not really. But is it easy hitting a moving target at 600, 800 or 1000 yards ? No!!! And Many Competition shooters would finds it very difficult to hit that 18" wide, 42" High silhouette target as it walks along down there in the butts. Different kind of target engagement all together.

As for the science of Balistics and Muzzle Velocity. I have to admit, I've forgotten far too much. Understanding that when you range your target, set your scope, and read the wind (adjusting your sights accordingly) and hold steady with a good slow steady squeeze, the the likelihood of a good hit is there.

Gents, for the last seveal years, The Marine Corps has ordained that I do things other than my beloved role as a Scout/Sniper. A year as a Foriegn Advisor to the Saudi Marines. Three years as Detachment Commander for MSG's at American Embassies, and this past year as an instructor with the Infantry Platoon Sergeants Course, so you can see that I have been promoted out of the fun. The muzzle velocity debate, and othe technical items dealing with these subjects, I simply don't have the current knowledge base or experiance to get too involved.

If you would like to discuss Sniper Employment, Techniques, Tactics or Procedures....I'm ready to engage.

[jcollettusa]

Here is my .02 cents. I have never shot in any HP competition other than the division competitions in the Corps, but I would tend to think at the HP level they would be better marksman. Here is my reasons why:

1. Training - a HP rifle shooter spends his training only at the range learning and mastering his rifle, usually with his own ammo that he loads himself. Whereas, a military sniper shoots fairly good ammo and a different rifle each time he changes battalions, because we don't get to keep the same rifles. And from some studies that I have heard, each rifle has its own load that it perfers and will perform better to. HP shooters get to mess around with their loads and try different settings.

2. Mental State - Military snipers are focused on several aspects, such as land nav skills, stalking, points of position safety, etc. versus the HP shooter walking up to your block on the range knowing what to expect, as far as your position is concerned, and taking the shot. I know ther is a lot more to it than that, such as, windage, tempature, etc. but that is my point, HP shooters focus on marksmanship skills. If HP shooters were put in a snipers environment than I bet the sniper would destroy the HP shooter. How many times does snipers take their shot when they are in a favorable position and their breathing is regulated? Most of the time they are going to be tired, hungry, and cold. Snipers also has to focus on their listening and observation skills and be able to record anything they may see. Snipers main focus is not the marksmanship, it is accomplishing the mission, which may or may not involve shooting.

I think it is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. If a sniper only focused on the marksmanship part of being a sniper than yes, his marksmanship skills would improve tremendously; but that is not the case. Snipers are going to spend more time in the field working on all the other aspects of perfecting their art than they will behind the trigger. I believe in the old "practice makes perfect speech." If you do something over and over with a good instructor correcting your errors than you will become better. However, if those skills you are working on are only done once or twice a week than you will not be as effective as the other person who is doing it five times a week. It is kind of like running, I would bet that I can run faster and longer if I ran 3 miles a day everyday versus running 6 miles once or twice a week. It is just what you focuse your efforts on.



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Semper Fi

[tactical]

OK I will wade in this pool.

On the highpower guys being better shots. It is not always the case. HP is a game played on marked yardage ranges with pretty little flags and flat ground. You put on a leather coat and strap yourself in like a big bird about to be baked. You learn to shoot standing, slung and read the wind you do not learn everything about shooting and this is not practical shooting.

Snipers are different. I shoot both but will never be world class in the HP game because I hate standing shooting, unless in CQB or I would rather drop to a knee or sit and hit it in a longer range field sit.. I certainly would not take ten minutes to fire ten rounds twenty two to fire twenty two after five minutes to get ready from a standing position.

HP taught me to read wind and trigger control, little else.

Take the range flags down put HP shooters in the field and see who does better snipers or HP guys. I know the answer.

Dont take me wrong doing both helps but a good HP guy does not mean a good sniper. Guny I stand with you on this.

[RifleMaster]

I'm obviously with Sharky in the Competitor vs. Sniper Marksmanship debate. IMHO Gunny Hicks, jcollettusa, and tactical drifted away from pure Marksmanship. I think of Marksmanship as a proficiency level of being able to hit a desired target. Certainly, the targets of Competitors and Snipers are different in size and range, but that doesn't matter if we're discussing shooter proficiency. I know that Competitive shooters, on the average, have to highly develop their shooting proficiency to continue to win in the higher classifications. IMHO, the average Sniper never achieves the same level of proficiency because they start shooting scoped rifles before they have truely developed a good hold, unconscious trigger control, and before they have really learned how to read conditions, i.e., light, air temp., wind, etc. On the other hand, the Competitve shooter must highly develop these skills to compensate for the inherent sighting errors of using iron sights. Carlos Hathcock developed these skills in competition BEFORE he became a great Sniper!

Have to admit that I've never been a sniper, unless I can count 82mm, 4.2", 105mm, 155mm, gunships, and Arclights! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif Oh, I also know the value of fieldcrafts from Vietnam.

Just my opinion!

Carl



[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 01-06-2001).]

[Gunny Hicks]

Carl,

Perhaps you'd like to come over to Pendleton and observe (perhaps even participate) in some of the Scout/Sniper training. The director of the School is GySgt Bill Skiles. He is not only an accomplished Scout/Sniper, but is a Distinguished shooter that has made his rounds of the shooting competitions (to include a tour with the British Military shooting teams on the exchange program) I'm sure that the two of you could get deep into a discussion on this matter.

As for me...the Competition shooter fires far more (and better)rounds, with a much better weapon, under far better shooting conditions. But as stated in an earlier post, Marine Scout/Snipers are all about mission accomplishment, not necessarily putting consecutive rounds in the X ring.

The degree of marksmanship training given to Marine Scout/Snipers will probably suprise you. Unlike the Army, our course is 10 weeks long, and Marksmanship is a very important.

[Sharky]

I agree with whatyou guys are saying. BUT, you weren't paying attention to what I've said TWICE! We are talking about pure marksmanship skills. NOT fieldcraft. Shooting. Thats all.

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F.I.D.O.

[jcollettusa]

Sharky, I don't think that we are arguing with you, I thought I was reinforcing what you stated earlier just stated a little differently.

Oh yeah, tell your roommate to check his email in a little bit.

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Semper Fi

[Linus]

Whew!

I just got this idea that "Yoda" had set an ambush for newbie/wannabe smartasses. Any of you who'd like to get caught being one of 'em? F****n' creepy if you ask me! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif

But, sure, I'll pitch in with whatever i can! Regarding MV, I'd just wanna add that not being a true sniper yet but more of a DM, in my not-yet-very-extensive experience, the "straight-shooting factor" of a high MV is most highly prized when you're pitted with a shot "against the odds": Strong/gusty wind, randomly moving target, quick shot and such. Perhaps not quite the situations you'd usually find your self in as a sniper, I nevertheless from time to time do. In those instances a higher MV allows for the more ordinary kind of marksmanship, rather than true sniping, to be employed at a much greater range and still retain the "one shot, one kill" effect.

Am I rambling here? Gotta switch to decaf...Well, my 0,02$ so far.

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Honestas supra omnis

[Linus]

And more of the ballistics, please!

I once asked Sharky on what to prefer, given a choice between Ballistic Coefficient and Impact Velocity. I have since then come to understand the complexity of the issue and that these two aren't as polarized as I was first led to believe.

But I still wonder in the small hours of the night: Could it be possible to achieve a ammo/weapon config that would allow a combination of an instable projectile and straight tracectory?

hmm...maybe I should take this post to any of the Rifles or Ammo forums... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

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Honestas supra omnis

[tactical]

So I would guess it takes more skill to hit a target at known distance, with range flags, under ideal conditions, with every do dad available than having the bugs eat your butt, on your gut in the FFP for hours on end, at unknown ranges and without range flags? I know different. Lets take a pure HP shooter and bring him to the sniper world, hump a pack with everything in it he needs and put a little pain in for fun and see who does what.

Look HP will teach you to do the trigger thing well, adjust your sites and such. It wont teach you how to get a firing solution for one round and let it fly under shitty conditions.

these are two different animals and very different. I have never met a HP only shooter that could do squat in the field(read I could not smoke in the field) but most snipers can pick up a HP rifle and hit with it. Maybe not to the same level as the guy who has spent ,many hours behind the HP rifle but hit with it they will do.

This reminds me of all the PPC shooters who thought they could do HRT pistol shooting and found out they could not. HP is a test of HP skills. How many of you would go to G.David Tubbs for sniper instruction over the USMC School. Now we all know Tubbs would smoke us all in HP. As I said different game. Can not compare them on the same level. Snipers are snipers not NRA Leather Jacket Game Players!

[Linus]

WOW!

Tactical is really fired up about this issue!

But hey, anyone else who noted almost all posts ends something like "it's two totally different things!" I don't know about you guys but IMHO, continued arguing at this point doesn't seem very productive. It can, however, produce tremendous amounts of fun... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif Whether HP marksmanship or field condition marksmanship is "better" is rather arbitrary, huh?

Hey, did this place just get a facelift?
Mr Hunter: Niiice...

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Honestas supra omnis

[This message has been edited by Linus (edited 01-06-2001).]

[Ranger002]

Jeez Shark go easy on me will ya!!! I am blind as a Bat and wear coke bottles for glasses ( with glitter on them of course) Actually I am not that bad of a shot and tried out for the National Match Army Reserve team back in the 80's. I did not have the focus required or a good grasp of the fundementals so I did rather poorly. Man let me tell ya there were some cool customers at those matches and I was not one of them.Most of the Reserve Guys devote every spare moment to shooting and I did not have the willingness to commit to it.Today it may be something for me to consider as I am older and wiser ( careful finboy LOL). We will see how it goes in a month or two.
WIlliam Hazen

[Sharky]

Once again, you're not seeing the point. Tactical, You don't have to preach to me about the pains of a stalk. I've done a couple or three myself and have been teaching Snipers for several years. It's not apples and oranges when you are talking about marksmanship. NOT FIELDCRAFT. MARKSMASHIP. Marksmanship is the same no matter if you're shooting an M-24 or a freakin slingshot. PERIOD. The fundamentals still apply. JC, Wilco, gracias bro. Now, can we get back to Muzzle velocity?

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F.I.D.O.

[josepy]

I have a question concerning who is a better shot snipers or HP shooters.

Who freaking cares?

http://members.tripod.com/~foodgodbb/b_b01.jpg

[Linus]

Sharky;

Tactical is apparently of the opinion that the field conditions does interfer with the marksmanship skills: He isn't talkin' 'bout stalkin' (ooh, rather Hazen-esque, if I may say so myself!), he's arguing that the Zen-Buddhist Kyujutsu style of the firing range isn't quite applicable during normal field conditions. Or something like that.

If I have understood things correctly, I'm prepared to agree with some of this. That is, that field condition marksmanship doesn't always equate with HP marksmanship. Do you follow my line of reasoning here?

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Honestas supra omnis

[This message has been edited by Linus (edited 01-07-2001).]

[tactical]

That is exactly what I am talking about. Hitting at marked ranges under range conditions is different from in the field. Stalking has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I dont remember who said HP shooters are better marksmen than snipers but in my opinion you can not judge the two side by side on a HP range. Certainly a guy who has the advantage will always be the guy who is playing his game. I see no problem with doing both but neither will make you good at the other. I remember seeing guys suit uin a leather coat, smoking sites, putting blinders on and gluing themselves to the rifle for the first time. I thought what a bunch of crap, but hey thats the way the game is played.

Sharky, relax this is not personal. I have had this discussion with other HP Guys before.

On the velocity issue. More velocity is good as long as the loads are consistent and recoil does not become a problem. Sometimes you will get another 50fps out of a load but the extreme spread of lets say ten rounds will double from the lower fps load. In this case you would be better to have the load consistent than faster. A velocity drop because of spread will get you into ,more trouble than the less wind correction needed because of a little faster load. Balance is everything in long range.

[Sharky]

Originally posted by tactical:
I see no problem with doing both but neither will make you good at the other.

Definitely cannot agree with that. High-Power made me a much better Sniper.



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F.I.D.O.

[RifleMaster]

Have reread all the posts, and think they contain alot of good info. and some standard lines that I have heard many times over the last twenty years. My following comments and opinions are NOT intended to defame tactical shooters in anyway. I have a great respect for military snipers primarily because of the extraordinary skills and courage needed to operate in small teams in enemy controlled areas.

With that said, back to our discussion of PURE MARKSMANSHIP. I think I would be impressed by the current Scout/Sniper training, as Gunny Hicks suggested. I would enjoy shooting with or even just observing some of the Scout/Sniper training at Camp Pendleton. Maybe we can make some arrangements.

There are a couple of competitions coming-up that could provide some practice and in-sight into target shooting for local tactical shooters. Maybe Tactical can make it down from Berkeley. I'm referring to the January 28th all prone 600 yard matches at Camp Pendleton and the California State Long Range Championships to be held on March 4-5 in Coalinga,CA. Camp Pendleton matches will mostlikely be only iron sights, some tactical shooters may not have them available. But, the first day of the State Championship is fired with any-sight, scopes are normally used. The second day is iron sights only. The first day of the State competition should be a cake-walk for trained snipers that are used to tough field conditions without flags (most use mirage) and sighter shots! However, the rules require that shooters hold their rifles, i.e., no bipods, rests, or sandbags can be used.

Have to go for now, but I'll later post addresses/point of contacts for entries into these shoots.

Keep holding'em Hard!

Oh, Gunny Hicks, GySgt Skiles probably knows CWO G. Ruck and WO DeMill USMC Team shooters from Camp Pendleton. CWO Ruck is currently the CO of the USMC Team in Quantico.

Just corrected Warrant Officer DeMill's rank! Sorry, I didn't know he made Warrant Officer.

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 01-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 01-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 01-07-2001).]

[tactical]

Riflemaster it is Warrant Officer DeMill and he could outshoot me anyday with probably any rifle made. I don't need to come down there for that. I have watched and shot against him in High Power before. He is a machine when it comes to that. I also think being a Marine he may have just a little bit of field experience, dont you think so? What I am talking about is the doctor/engineer type that gets into HP and never does any other shooting discipline. He is not going to be well rounded and able to perform.

How about you go down to Pendelton when I do March/April and we both take a couple weeks in the field with the Sniper Program. You get to watch an Old Man(me)learn some more. Me I get to see how good you are. hell we can buy each other beers and lie about how good we used to be. This is not a challenge. I have done the HP thing for years and learned from it but being a HP shooter did not make me a sniper or vice versus.

[Gunny Hicks]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RifleMaster:
[B]Oh, Gunny Hicks, GySgt Skiles probably knows CWO G. Ruck and SgSgt? DeMill USMC Team shooters from Camp Pendleton. CWO Ruck is currently the CO of the USMC Team in Quantico.

These are familiar names. The MSgt currently with our company, (MSgt Schubert was the coach for the AMrine Corps team this past season) has shot alng side GySgt Skiles and these others quite often. He is working to get orders to the team on a permanent basis.

I think WO Ruck has orders to Pendleton (It's either him, or another Warrant Officer that is on the team) to take over as OIC of all ranges.

[jcollettusa]

Any of you all know SSGT Carbanera? He was the 5th man on the olympic shooting team or the all Marine Team, I cannot remember, but he is one hell of a shot.

[This message has been edited by jcollettusa (edited 01-07-2001).]

[Sharky]

Originally posted by Sharky:
A lot of Snipers don't want to see this because they are comfortable where they are at in their Sniper world.



So far, all this has done is helped to prove my point.


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F.I.D.O.

[RifleMaster]

Gunny Hicks,

I talked to WO Ruck's wife yesterday, and he should be assigned OIC either in March or most likely in July.

I'll answer your Email soon. I have to schedule my shooting around my work. I should just retire! But then how could I afford to shoot.

Keep Holding'em Hard!

Carl

PS: Back in the early 90's several top (HighMaster) competitive shooters started experimenting with long range small caliber rifles. Kind of a copy of our current 5.56mm weapons. To meet and surpass the 300 Win. Mag. in performance, they optimized BC's and muzzle velocities. Do we want to continue this discussion of MV? I know LE and military tactical shooters do not have a choice in MV's.



[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 01-08-2001).]

[dforeman69]

Originally posted by Sharky:
IMHO, If you're talking about the gun, I would say that having a quality barrel would be the most important piece of equipment. If you don't have a good-shooting barrel, everything else is limited to the performance of the barrel. You can have all the latest whiz-bang gizmos you want but, without a good barrel you'll never be competitive. Or were you talking about other than the gun? If you were, what type of shooting are we doing?

Hey, am I the only one around here that can speak up? Come on guys, this is a great learning opportunity. Let's hear from the Marine side of the house also. And you too Linus. And anybody else out there. Being a Sniper is not a requirement. Only a love of marksmanship. I wanna hear from Josepy, Whitey, Gary, Gunny Hicks, 0802, JY, Bobby etc.....



Picking up on this line-I gotta agree with the importance of the barrel. Following this line on MV and barrel choice-has anybody had experience with the BOSS system and "tuning" the barrel for a particular load? I would file this under "gadget" but the idea seems to have merit-does it work?

[tactical]

On the bbl issue. I did a test a year ago with seven different weapons on a line I was teaching., We took the same lot of Federal168's and one lot of Federal 175's in 308 and ran them through the weapons.

Velocity was as follows:

1. New Remington 26" PSS average 2590 with 168s and 2600 with 175's
2. 26"PSS with 2000 rds through it 2525/168'2 and 2560/175's
3. 26"PSS with 500 rds, 2600/168's and 2625/175's
4. Remington action 26" KxP bbl 1x12 twist2700/168's and 2725/175's bbl had 2000 rds through it.
5. Remington action 22" Cooper Precision bbl, 2625/168's and 2650/175's
6. '''''''''''''''''26" KxP bbl 1x12twist 2700/168's and 2740/175's Bbl had 300 rds through it.
7. PSS 24" bbl, unknown number of rounds 2475 168's and 2500/175's. This was a rifle that was plain worn out and would not group after five rounds without cleaning.

I found this interresting that the better bbls not only shot better but provided better velocity. It also was funny the heavier bullet actually went faster. Since I have found I can push, in handloads,the 175's as fast if not faster than 168's.

By the way the little 22" bbl'd rifle is a great little carry rifle.

Riflemaster I will probably bring the 26" KxP version down to Pendelton. It is basically a M40A3 (McMillan A4 stock) so it only seems right to bring a Marine Type rifle to learn from Gunny Hicks. Sorry Gunny I went with the Leupold Ultra Scope since my Unertal is not here yet.

[Gunny Hicks]

Tactical: Sounds like a good weapon.

I won't be teaching you much. I'll leave that to the young Sgts.

[RifleMaster]

Hi dforeman69,

I agree with you that rifle barrel's are major contributors to good accuracy. There are many features and add-on devices for rifle barrels that can contribute to accuracy or inaccuracy. I believe the most effective means of improving rifle accuracy is to minimize the non-uniform wag of the muzzle end of the barrel. Certainly the uniformity of the bore, grooves, surface finish, twist, and other features are very important, but shot to shot variations in muzzle position relative to the point of aim contribute most to inaccuracy!

I have not used a BOSS, but I have considered many ways of minimizing non-uniform rifle barrel wag. I'm certain from my engineering experience that any weight added to the end of a barrel will reduce its motion to some degree. Newton's law of motion (F=MA) is valid. But reducing non-uniform motion is the key. I think there are several better ways of accomplishing this than using a questionable BOSS. A BOSS is an adjustable weight placed on the end of a barrel to alter the wag timing/motion to achieve a consistant muzzle position when the bullet exits. A heavy stiff barrel does this best! A BOSS is less effective because it is on the end of the barrel, and it has to be adjusted for the speed of the bullet within the barrel. What happens if you adjust a BOSS at some air temperature and then go hunting at a different temperature? The change in air temperature will change your bullet speed (MV), and the BOSS will be out of adjustment by the amount of change in bullet speed.

I hope this helps!

Keep Holding'em Hard!

Carl

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 01-09-2001).]

[RifleMaster]

Tactical,

I think the MV was lost in your testing because of throat erosion. In other words, the bullets in the older rifles moved farther and faster to the rifling, creating a larger volume for the expanding gases and therefore a lower MV. Moly-coated bullets work the same way.

My M40A1 will not be finished until mid February. I decided to put out the money for the tanged sight base. Soo, I probably won't have it ready for the State Long Range Matches in the first week of March. Just have to used my 7mm-08. I'm pretty sure I'll participate in the Camp Pendleton matches on January 28th. If I send in the $40 entry fee and get sent on a business trip, Oh well! I think the 28th is also Superbowl Sunday!

Keep Holding'em Hard!!

Carl

[RifleMaster]

Hi Guy!

That's an interesting question! I think to become a top shooter you have to be very tenacious. Takes the same kind of stuff that is needed for special operations!

Take care!

Carl

[YTDEVIL]

Talking about HP guys and Snipers is like comparing Porsche911's and Dodge Durango's. Both can get you from point a)to point b), but have two entirely different ways of accomplishing their jobs.

HP are on a KD range. Perfect rounds that are tuned to thier barrels, don't have to deal withthe elements, are on flat ground, and probably don't have a banged up ass weapon that some PFC was thrashing through a stalk or bear crawling for 1000 yards after getting walked on.

Put HP guys in the Sniper scenario, and we know who will become the victor. Put Snipers in the HP role and we know who will become the victor.

This debate is like saying "Who's tougher, Batman or Superman?"

Like Josepy asked "Who cares?"

That's my take. Please don't be offended.

YTDEVIL S/S PLT 1/1 96-98

[dforeman69]

Originally posted by RifleMaster:
Tactical,

I think the MV was lost in your testing because of throat erosion. In other words, the bullets in the older rifles moved farther and faster to the rifling, creating a larger volume for the expanding gases and therefore a lower MV. Moly-coated bullets work the same way....


Moly=bad?
Tried it once and the results were less than stellar..had to remove the moly to get the grouping back...probably a faulty application on my part but I was horrified..I thought my barrel was ruined

[Linus]

Originally posted by GUY JONES:
Does a persons personality play a part, in his ability to fire long weapons?

I beleive it most certainly does. A lot of the elements of your training would be highly influenced by, for example, your ability to observe, analyze and learn from your mistakes. If you are too competitive, you'd probably end up berrating yourself, at least to some extent, instead. And still, you gotta be willing to be the best at what you do but I don't really think that issue has to be addressed in the present company...

And in the field (as everywhere, for that instance!), somebody http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif around this board spoke to me about the absolute importance of patience. I've found this to be true about every single aspect of sniping I've so far encountered! Or what do you others say?

Oops, gotta go watch the lunar eclipse! I'll be back later,

Linus

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

[Linus]

Uuh;
Last post was apparently afflicted by a severe case of Rambling. Short version reads as follows:

Ability to shoot long range would largely depend on "cool" and concentration, IMHO.

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

[Sharky]

Ahhh well, so much for the learning experience. As I have said before, I was only trying to point out that even as Snipers we can learn much from the other shooting disciplines. From here on out I will try to refrain from making such statements and offending the sniper gods around here. Didn't mean to upset anyone's ego or step on any toes. It is amusing however that so many jumped in to defend their honor but have shared little in the way of knowledge.

It was a nice try Carl. Maybe you could try it again and I will keep my trap shut this time.

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F.I.D.O.

[YTDEVIL]

What you think is defense, is really an answer.

You are talking apples and oranges. They are similar by being fruits, but nothing alike, taste, look and feel.

YTDEVIL S/S PLT 1/1 96-98

[RifleMaster]

Sharky,

Many very good shooters agree with the points you made. I believe the tactical shooters that replied know that some practice is better and none. Further, I think there were good points on both sides, and the debate didn't get out-of-hand. Although, I still think it would have been more fun if everyone just went out to the range and demonstrated their Rifle Marksmanship (the ability to hit the intended target) at the same distances and within the same weather conditions. I do not know of any other way of demonstrating true rifle Marksmanship.


YTDEVIL,

If we are discussing pure Marksmanship, then we are not discussing apples and oranges. Rifle Marksmanship is a common skill needed by both tactical and competitive shooters.

Carl

[Sharky]

Well, as I said in the MARNET. Screw it. Consider the subject closed on my part. I will now defer to the real snipers.

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F.I.D.O.

[Sharky]

Originally posted by tactical:

Sharky, relax this is not personal. I have had this discussion with other HP Guys before.



By the way, I'm not a HP guy. I've shot HP and did ok but I wouldn't consider myself a HP shooter. I'm a Sniper with an open mind and a willingness to learn regardless of where the knowledge comes from. I graduated the DA school at Benning on June 28, 1991 and had the opportunity to train snipers for several years. But even as an instructor, I still learned alot. Many times from the very students I was there to train.


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F.I.D.O.

[tactical]

OK I guess I in a better mood or finally grasp what you guys were telling me. I was a sniper first and then did the HP thing. I think the HP thing helped me with wind/mirage reading and sling/alternate position shooting. In those area I improved as a sniper greatly. I also picked up on the small things that make ammo work and balistics from HP. Crap HP guys know more about ballistics than anybody who does not use a Bench Rest to hold the rifle.

I think anyone should practice many different disciplines to get better in one or all.

On Molly. I wrote an artice for Tactical Shooter on this but basically it SUCKS for sniper use.

When I mentioned the sling use I did not but will plug my sling here. Look at Tacticalintervention.com at my sniper sling. That came from a cross over of HP and sniper experience.

Ego in check

Mike Miller

[STN]

Not to add fuel to the fire but playing golf and tennis isn’t going to help my baseball hitting game. The only way to get better at Sniping is to do it, a lot!

For all you guys that think Sniping is mostly getting down behind a rifle after crawling to a shooting position and sending rounds down range, you’re greatly mistaken!

[Sharky]

Great, here we go again. Mike, since you are finally understanding what we are trying to say, could you please help explain to STN. How many times does it have to be said? Shooting! Thats it! Nothing more! I agree! HP wont improve your other skills! I agree! I was only talking about shooting! That's all!

Now. With that being said again. Please explain to me all about what being a Sniper entails because I thought it was just sporting a ghillie and ventilating melons. I'm sure that I'm lacking in knowledge of Scout/Sniper operations so please help me out. Educate me please!

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F.I.D.O.

[STN]

Not sure if your asking the group but briefly a few things such as Formulas/Range Estimation, Ghillie Suit construction and maintenance, Painting and cammo your rifle, Azimuths and Distances, Map Reading, Methods of Navigation, Techniques of Camouflage, Techniques of Observation, Terrain Features, Sniper Formulas/Range, sketching, call for fire, etc etc.

[Sharky]

LMAO........I'm sorry. I was being sarcastic and forgot that you dont know that unless I write it on here. Have you read this entire thread? If not, check it out and you'll see where this is going.

LMAO again...... I give up. Again.

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F.I.D.O.

[RifleMaster]

Tactical and Sharky,

Let's hear some info that can help the less experienced.

I've shot alot of Moly-coated bullets. I became interested in the early 90's when Precision Shooting ran articles on the testing being done in Europe by Norma. I believe its biggest advantage is barrel or throat life. Moly can withstand the very high temperatures of ignited powder. So, that is primarily why I use it. I do not believe that it helps accuracy much. What do you guys think about it?

Tactical, I'll checkout your sling.

It's time for bed! Yesterday was about a 12 hour day and today about 10 hours.

Take care!

Carl

Oh, I added three photos to my Webshots albums. Two are of the USMC van at Camp Perry and the other is my first string fired at 1,000 yards with a scope. I got beat by X's. I'll explain later.

Also, in the last few days there has been alot of views and downloads of my Competition photos. The total views for both my RVN and Competition photos is now about 2,231.

Have to close!!!

[STN]

Shark, just caught the last part. I'm too old or too lazy to read the whole thing.

[Linus]

Sharky!

I'm truly busting my gut here from reading your most recent posts! Feeling just a tad resignated, huh? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif


Carl;

As you probably understand I'd really appreciate to know your angle on shooting. Is this "Show and tell" or "Listen and Learn" on my behalf? I still think you might just be shafting me for fun: I wouldn't blame you for a second! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

Everybody;

Are we more or less done with the Sniper/HP debate? If so, I'd (as stated before) like to get back to discussing Ballistics and Accuracy. I'll start off with "Rifle configurations" for 100$:

What is "freefloating" about a freefloating barrel?

Apart from that, if our dear Riflemaster is jacking around, I'll humor him with this: High MV doesn't actually affect accuracy in any other aspect than that gravity and environmental factors has less time to affect the bullet's trajectory. All this is supposed to have been taken into account before the shot is fired, so wether or not it affects ACCURACY (which is mainly derrived from the shooter and his weapon) is a bit of an academic question.

Comment/correction, anyone? I feel like I just asked 0802 to really bitchslap me on this...

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Honestas supra omnis

[This message has been edited by Linus (edited 01-11-2001).]

[tactical]

On Molly real quick:
Snipers typically shoot one round or to three rounds if they want to be shot back at.

Molly needs a coating of the bore to be consistent. Usually it takes five rounds to stabalise the bore with Molly

To use Molly for snipers you would have to shoot five rounds and leave the rifle dirty before a mission.

Molly is not rust protective so you would risk corrosion by leaving dirty.

Police snipers usually shoot 20-40 rds a month so if you add in another five to stabalise the bore after cleaning you have added 10-20percent more rounds to get the same results as just plain old bullets. That increase in number of rounds takes away the advantage of less bore wear. By the way the throat is where most wear comes from and powder is burning is the biggest cause of this so Molly has no real advantages in this area.

Molly has the advantage of more roundsbetween cleaning without fouling out the bore. This is no real advantage to snipers because of the few rounds shot. It is an advantage to HP guys because it helps when you can not clean across the course.

Now this is just what I have noticed when messing with Molly in HP and sniper applications.

Also Molly costs more and if you shoot more rounds to get the same results what are you gaining.

I use Molly for HP but not for sniping

[RifleMaster]

Linus,

You were right-on at the start of this discussion! Sorry, that I got caught-up in the other posts.

I'm not jacking anyone around! Not my style! Like alot on these forums, I enjoy the discussions and hope to share my experience. I certainly do not have all the answers, but my reloading press is almost 30 years old.

In the beginnng, I wanted to start a discussion of MV, and that would have led to the importance of time of bullet flight. That is why I asked Linus, WHY. We know that exterior ballistic programs contain math equations that include time of flight. I don't think everyone realizes how significant the time of flight term is in bullet wind deflection and drop. Do you think that bullets ride on the air (on air molecules)? Do you think that the wind consists of air molecules traveling at the same speed and mostly horizontal? What are mirage waves?

I've made my mess above. Time for bed!


Keep Holding'em Hard!

Carl/RifleMaster

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 01-12-2001).]

[Linus]

Carl;

As far as I understand, wind is the phenomenon of air movement occurring from the relation between comparatively overpressurized area and its' underpressurized counterpart, taking the bullet along for the ride, so to speak. It's just like sailing: Its not the overpressure in the sail but the underpressure on the back of it that makes the boat move, right? But doesn't the air's ability to excert pressure derrive from the fact that it has mass, i.e. air molecules, consisting (mainly) of oxygen and nitrogen?

I'm a sort of "lost at sea" as to where you're going with this but, being the idiot I am, I'll tag along! And it sure seems interresting...

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Honestas supra omnis

[This message has been edited by Linus (edited 01-12-2001).]

[Linus]

Addendum to the above:

What causes retardation? What makes air temperature an important factor? Air density! Meaning air has mass, right? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/confused.gif

I feel like I'm back in Physics class in high school, trying to convince my teacher I deserve a better grade... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif Sincerely: Thank you, Carl, for taking us along on this odyssé of external ballistics!

"Per aspera ad astra!"

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Honestas supra omnis

[This message has been edited by Linus (edited 01-12-2001).]

[RifleMaster]

Tacticle,

Good info in your post on LE use of Moly-coat!

As you know competitive shooters usually shoot over a hundered rounds per month and many more prior to big championships. Barrels last about 2-3 years. So, I shoot Moly-coated bullets to extend the life of my expensive barrels. Extended barrel life was what the Norma study proved. I think the Moly gets rubbed onto the throat as the first few rounds are fired, and after that it protects the throat from the very hot gases.

Have to go to work! This work stuff could get old!

Take care!

Carl

[tactical]

Carl, I also use molly for HP. I find when I need all the help, the last 22 rounds at the greatest distance, I have better scores with molly than without. Eighty eight rounds will seriously foul any bbl so I find mooly an edge here.

Sharky, I learn every day. By reading your post on "Recon" I can see you have already made up your mind about me so no use in going into much more.

Since you asked on the other board and there seems to be some confusing of who and what I am here goes. I am Mike Miller, just a 20 years cop with all 19 plus in the tactical aspects. The bio on my website(posted by someone on the Recon board) was written by my webmaster JT, a great guy. I am teaching and have for most of the 20 years but learn everyday.

Mike Miller

[Cut]

I hate to miss out on this. But I'm sitting here in the corner listening to you guys. lol !

Cut

[Sharky]

Just to keep the air clear around here, Tactical and I have worked this out via e-mail and have declared a cease-fire. With that behind us, maybe now we can get back into what started as a promising thread.

I will however commend Tactical for making the first move to take our discussion to e-mail. If you have a personal problem with someone on this board, take it to e-mail. Nobody wants to read posts of supposed professionals or wannabe's delving into 3rd grade name-calling tactics. I have been guilty of doing it myself a few times when I should have taken it somewhere else. Although the discussion between Tactical and I never came close to reaching that point, you don't have to look very far on this board to find some good examples.

Moly coating, I have ZERO experience with moly. I do remember seeing somewhere that pressures went down with moly, therefore you were able to load hotter, bringing the pressure back up to normal and resulting in more velocity. Is this true?

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F.I.D.O.

[OldSFer]

Speaking about muzzzle velocity, has anyone measured the MV of a Doberman Pinscher! The damn things are quick!

[RogueExec]

Especially those with left-hand rifling.

Brings new meaning to the term F.I.D.O.

[This message has been edited by RogueExec (edited 01-15-2001).]

[Linus]

Me: 0 moly experience.

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Honestas supra omnis

[RifleMaster]

All,

Those photos of the USMC Team van at Camp perry are now in my albums. I uploaded them about on the 7th. I sent an Email to Webshots this past weekend asking them to check why they were not released for public viewing. They probably just got to them.

In these photos the USMC Team van is at the Camp Perry range where the USMC Team members were instructing/coaching Junior State Team shooters in a live fire practice the day before the matches started. The US Army runs a Small Arms Firing School every year prior to the matches.

Just thought these photos would be of interest. Army and Marine Armorers in their vans supported their shooters first and also helped junior shooters as much as they could. I won't tell on these Armorers! But, their help was greatly appreciated by the young shooters.

Carl

[tactical]

Yes, the Sharky and I have made an agrement to agree to disagree. Mostly I needed to understand what was being said. I have a hard head but thick skin.Once again proving what SF 5th Group RVN,James Jarrett, my mentor, has told me many times. "Good men can disagree and still be friends"

[RifleMaster]

All,

I've had the flu and been very busy, but we can continue our discussion of MV affects on accuracy. Maybe throw-in how significant MV variations are at long range.

Anyone want to guess why the 11th round of my photo album 1,000 yard string is low? That is any guess other than I screwed-up and aimed there. The previous 10th round was my failure to adjust for the changing wind, and that made me drop a point. Note that I corrected for the 10th round and the 11th round would have been an X if it hadn't been low. I lost (2nd) this Master Class Match by X's so that out of group low round was the bad boy that lost it for me.

I review everything, in an attempt to not repeat mistakes. In this case it was only a Match, but in combat it can be your life. These day's, I'm a lover not a fighter!! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

More later!

Oh, ammo's ready for Saturday's practice and the Pendleton Matches on the 28th.

Keep Holding'em Hard!

Carl

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 01-18-2001).]

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 01-18-2001).]

[Sharky]

Carl, could you post a link to your photos?

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F.I.D.O.

[RifleMaster]

Hi Sharky,

I have three albums on Webshots. Two are RVN photos and RVN stuff. The other albun contains my early shooting photos. When you photo search my albums via my user name, the search brings up all three albums. My last three photos added are on the last page.

To view my photos enter the Webshots site via www.webshots.com (http://www.webshots.com) . Then in the photo search box search for my albums using my user name: _RifleMastrr .

I have some things to do now, but later I may drop by SOCCHAT. I still need to be trained in the use of my new headset! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

Take care!

Carl

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 01-18-2001).]

[Sharky]

Great pix Carl! My favorite was definitely Raquel Welch.

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F.I.D.O.

[RifleMaster]

Sharky,

I think Raquel's photo is "Numba One"! The last time I checked my album stats, there were 2,514 views and 217 downloads. Raquel's photo probably has been downloaded 216 times!! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

The RVN photos were mostly taken during my first tour. I wish I had taken some pictures of other camps and the ARVN Recondos during my second tour. Oh well.

Take care!

Carl

[Linus]

OK: Who'll to talk to me about freefloating barrel configuration and it's counterpart? And Carl; did I pass the Wind and Air exam or what?

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

[tactical]

Carl, I second the best photo award!

Linus, free floating a bbl. Think of the bbl as a tuning fork. Everytime a round goes down the tube it plays a sound. If everything is the same it will play the same sound everytime. If you change any point of contact it will play a different sound. Now on a weapon, the tuning fork/bbl heats up and changes pressure with a non free floated bbl so the sound is different. That presure cause the bullet to move away from where the bbl touches.


Put a finger on the top of the bbl and impact will be lower. Right side in presure and the impact will move left for examples. free float the bbl and nothing touches so no impact change in a trued action.

Take this one step further and a badly fitted/stock action bbl will start to wander because the screws start changing presure between the action and bbl when many rounds are shot.

That is one reason why a factory set up will usually hold for a few rounds but then start wandering after. The other is rough bbl bores.

Hope this helps

[Linus]

Thanx, Tactical!

Anyone who could post links to pics displaying examples of both a freeloating rifle config and...the other way to do it, whatever it's called? Or is it like you can't see the difference by just looking at a picture?

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Honestas supra omnis

[hoover]

Originally posted by RifleMaster:
How does muzzle velocity affect accuracy?


This is a loaded question: in that there are so many variables affecting accuracy..even increasing muzzle velocity...
Yes. Bullets with higher muzzle velocities shoot flatter and exhibit less wind drift and less drop due to faster flight time from muzzle to target.
However.. :-) There are other related variables..a higher muzzle velocity corresponds to higher pressures and greater barrel vibrations which can have a greater effect on the Point of Impact of your follow up shot (re: group size).

Also unless you increase the twist rate..your bullets are going to "wobble" more during the first 100-200 yards than they would at more moderate velocities..which will also have an effect on accuracy.
The forces exerted on a bullet as it is moving through the air are tremendous..in order stabilize a bullet: bullets need to spin. The faster a bullet is spinning in comparison to its linear velocity..the less "wobble" it will experience.
If bullets spin too fast they will disintegrate.
Bullets have 2 types of momentum (momentum is mass times velocity: velocity is speed with a direction). Bullets have linear momentum and rotational (or angular) momentum (spin). Gyroscopic stability is the ratio of angular momentum divided by the linear momentum. As the bullet moves down range its loses linear momentum (linear velocity) FASTER than it loses its Rotational momentum (spin). This results in a higher degree of Gyroscopic stability and bullets will "wobble" less.

A lot of bench rest shooters and High Power shooters: load to their cartridges at moderate velocities.
Like all things there are trade offs and their is an optimum.
More important is a bullet's ballistic coefficient..its sectional density (for penetration).

The most important thing affecting accuracy though..is the shooter. :-)

[Linus]

Good post!

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Honestas supra omnis

[Sharky]

Originally posted by hoover:


More important is a bullet's ballistic coefficient..its sectional density (for penetration).


I wasn't aware that the sectional density of the bullet was the same as it's ballistic coefficient or that it had so much to do with penetration. Maybe I misunderstood your post or maybe I just don't know near as much as I thought I did.

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F.I.D.O.

[Linus]

Sharky;

I finally got that CD done. Posting it tomorrow or monday. Sorry 'bout the delay...

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Honestas supra omnis

[Sharky]

Roger that.....standing by.

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F.I.D.O.

[RifleMaster]

Hi All!

I didn't freeze in Connecticut! Tonight, we had a nice SFA Chapter XII dinner/meeting at a local VFW. My Wife and I hosted it.

Hoover, thanks for sharing a very informative post! I think we could have some interesting discussions on many of the points that you made. I think to obtain optimum accuracy, the variables associated with muzzle velocity have to be evaluated and traded-off according to the weapon used, target range, and range conditions.

Linus, exterior ballistics are significantly affected by the bullet's ballistic coefficient (BC). I shoot 7mm bullets at long range because their higher BC gives me an advantage over our beloved .30 calibers.

Have to close! More later.

Keep Holding'em Hard!

Carl

[RifleMaster]

Hoover, posted a lot of generally known facts about rifle accuracy. Why don't we discuss the trade-offs of some of these variables at military sniping ranges, i.e., 400 yards and 700 yards.

Barrel vibration vs. muzzle velocities: Let's assume we have a military tactical rifle that shoots 1 MOA accuracy with Sierra 168gr. Matchking bullets at 2600 ft/sec. Then, we decrease the muzzle velocity to 2400 ft/sec to obtain 3/4 MOA accuracy (I doubt if this is possible, but let's assume we can). So, by decreasing our MV 200 ft/sec, we decrease barrel vibration/whip a 1/4 MOA. A 1/4 MOA improvement at 400 yards would be 1 inch and at 700 yards would be 1.75 inches. However, a MV increase of 200 ft/sec would provide 1 inch less drift in a 5 MPH wind at 400 yards and 3.76 inches less drift in a 5 MPH wind at 700 yards. Therefore, the 200 ft/sec faster MV would be preferred at distances beyond 400 yards.

What do you think?

Carl


[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 02-07-2001).]

[USMCSNIPERONE]

Sharky, Iwas a S/S in the 80's . Always shot high expert with the M-16 .Got out of the Corps. in 87 .Started Highpower shooting 2 years ago, because my buddies in the Marine Corps League bugging me. I found that I can shoot with most guys across the course-1 gold,1 silver 1bronze andThe Presidents 100in 2years.But I found out that when I win its because of my ability to call the wind at the 600 yrd. line . I have to say that came from being a Scout/ Sniper and Shooting and calling the wind on ranges without wind flags.Even now after shooting Highpower 2 years I only use the flags for a referance to what the mirage is telling me. As to velocity!!! The only factor Velocity plays is the effect wind has on the bullet during its time of flight.The slower the bullet goes the more time the wind has to blow it off coarse.Hows that!!!

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[RifleMaster]

USMCSNIPERONE,

What about gravity. Doesn't a bullet's velocity (time rate of motion in a given direction) determine the time that the earth's gravity will affect its drop?

Carl

[This message has been edited by RifleMaster (edited 03-07-2001).]

[USMCSNIPERONE]

Riflemaster, I think if allthings are equal, by that I mean if you have two rifles that shoot 1/4 min of angle groups,w/the same bullet.The only differance is one is going faster then the other and they are both zeroed at the same distance,the only thing that will effect the accuracy is the wind.Which will effect them both equally but for a differant amount of time,therefore the slower bullet will be moved farther off course than the faster bullet at the same distance.And the Shooter will have to make more corrections to keep on target.

[RifleMaster]

USMCSNIPERONE,

I think you're right-on! The effect of gravity and wind is dependent upon time-of-flight (velocity) of the bullet. However like you said, if you have zeroed your elevation, the wind will affect the slower bullet more because it acts on it for a longer time.

I get a kick out of those guys that claim they really like this or that caliber of rifle because it "shoots flatter". As we know, the primary reason one rifle shoots flatter than another is muzzle velocity. Of course the BC of the bullets will affect their trajectory, but usually the BC's are close.

Keep Holding'em Hard!

Carl

[USMCSNIPERONE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RifleMaster:
[B]USMCSNIPERONE,

I think you're right-on! The effect of gravity and wind is dependent upon time-of-flight (velocity) of the bullet. However like you said, if you have zeroed your elevation, the wind will affect the slower bullet more because it acts on it for a longer time.

Riflemaster Thanks,I think we've beat this horse enough!! SEMPER FI Sniper One

[mcdude]

Tactical,

I gotta go with you, brother! "Survey says!!! GOOD ANSWER!! <DING! DING!>"

Although shootin' HP is great practice, put a ruck on 'em. make 'em sweat, get a good blow, and see what happens. Simple equations...good shooter doesn't=good sniper...vice good sniper--not= to good HP shooter!

They are different, yet the same. There are a few guys who can totallly turn the switch, and do both well....they are few. Gotta find that niche, fellas.....I am still looking for mine. If y'all find it...please send it to me!

[Sharky]

Please don't start this all over again. And please don't mention bipods either. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

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F.I.D.O.

[RifleMaster]

Hi Sharky!

I'm trying to control myself!!!!

You know I didn't have one sniper come down to Pendleton to give us KD shooters a marksmanship lesson! Oh well!

Keep Holding'em Hard!

Carl

[Sharky]

Hey Carl, good to hear from you again. Hope the matches went well for you. I was hoping to hear that some of the tactical shooters showed up but, oh well. I won't even get started on that again though for obvious reasons. Take care bro.

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F.I.D.O.

[tactical]

I agree, how the hell do I say Uncle.


Carl, your and Garys slings will get done this week. I had several huge orders and I shoot far faster than I sew.

Sharky, your sling is finally on the way.

LOL

Mike

[Sharky]

SWEET! You collect patches from other dept's or anything? I'd like to send you something in return.

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F.I.D.O.

[tactical]

Sharky, I mostly collect money so my other half can spend it but patches will be fine.LOL

Please send me some of your patches