Where??

[Enfield]

I was arguing with some friends from my unit the other day about where snipers aim for on the body. I always thought it was the head - better chance of a kill - but they were adamant that the target was the centre of mass, because it's easier to hit and will stil likely kill.
So what's the verdict? Head or centre of mass?

Enfield
Happy Easter All!

[Sharky]

Wherever you want. It's your life. Most of us that I know aim for center mass unless there is a special circumstance that would make it necessary to aim elsewhere. Then again, there's always the SOTIC holdoff method. In a nutshell bro, once you're out of school, nobody's telling you where to aim. As my old boss at Sniper school used to say, "Let your conscience be your guide".

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Gunny Hicks]

The Marine Corps teaches Center mass. Unless it is a Hostage rescue situation, and the hostage is being held in front of the hostage taker. Then you aim for that two inch high space, centered on the top of the upper lip.
"Hold Off method" ? I'm sure you mean how many mils you lead a moving target. Even with this, you normally lead, off of center mass.

The myth of always aiming for the head, is a product og hollywood. Why aim at such a small target ? Increase your chances of a hit. Aim center mass. Besides, there is no hurry to evac a dead body. But it usually takes four healthy bodies to move a wounded soldier. So with one shot, you remove five people from the immediate battlefield. (this does noy imply, that the intent is merely to wound. The intent is to hit your target center mass. If death or wounding results, you did your job, no matter what !)

[tactical]

It depends on the situation. In HRT Work and ranges less than 200 yards the head is the ideal target, but if the bad guy is moving, at more than a snails pace center mass is the only way to go. The Hollywood idea of only seven or eight guys in the world could make thta shot or only the head counts is not real world.

I 308 or larger round makes bad wounds so center mass is all that is needed unless you need to turn the lights off right now and can makle a head shot.

[Sharky]

Gunny, what I meant was that at Benning we were taught to make adjustments for wind on our scopes. From what I have heard from some fellow instructors who went through SOTIC, they teach you to leave the scope on zero wind and shift point of aim. And yes, this is done from center mass.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Gunny Hicks]

"they teach you to leave the scope on zero wind and shift point of aim."

Good ol' Kentucky Windage huh ?

If you can read the wind accurately, and have estimated the range with confidence, you should dial the windage onto your scope. Granted...you should also know how to use your mil dots in the scope to use the 'Hold Off' method as you described. But this would not be the preferred method.
I could see doing this when engaging multiple targets at greatly varying ranges, with wind as an issue. Knowing how many mils to 'Hold Off' with your sight, would reduce the constant manipulation of the scope, while shifting from target to target. But you'd better be good at the math for either method.

[Sharky]

Hey gunny, I'm in total agreement with everything you said but, I didn't write the SOTIC POI. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Gunny Hicks]

Sharky...no problems. Just a difference in verbiage.

[tactical]

I agree with Gunny Hicks on this. If you can figure the correct hold off you can dial the correct wind correction. This allows better leads, on movers and more precise shooting. You start holding off for wind,and target movement and you end up so far ahead it is just a guess. I also agree with multiple targets it is best but when you have the time go for the precision route.

I think it gets more into time to teach one technique that will work OK across the board not this is the onlyway to do it.

Mike

[Sharky]

Can I get that in writing? That we all agree on something? Signatures too please. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[JY]

Enfield, I have to agree with Sharky, Gunny, and Tactical on the subject holds, leads and sight settings http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif BUT, if I can't get a center mass, I'm going to take what I can get. If I see your foot, I'll take it, a hand, a leg, what ever. 190 grs will damage beyond any thought of returning fire anywhere I choose to hit you, I don't have to kill you to make you wish you were dead, or home with mommy. A sniper does not have to kill to be effective, a wounded screamer and a couple wounded, yelling, would be rescuers is much more effective in destroying morale and combativeness. There's an old sniper saying "I decide". While not a text book reply this is the cold hard facts...head or center mass, any where I can can hit you, I don't have to kill you to use you.

Signed for Sharky...Jim, aka A. Snuffy

[This message has been edited by JY (edited 04-17-2001).]

[Enfield]

Guess I owe a few beers to the boys =o) Thanks for the replies guys!

Enfield

[tactical]

JY I completely agree with you. A man hit in the foot is no damm good anymore. saw a guy get taken out of the fight with a pistol round to the heal. Instant flopper!

When I talked to Peter Kokalis the first time. he said "Police Sniper. Do you think you have to shoot for the head always" I replied in a gun fight I would shoot for anything, any head on the body (Top of shoulders or pleasure gun) hand or whatever I could hit at the time. He laughed and said we would get along.

Sharky we agree on more Beer also. You get that sling yet? Damm mail has been taking way to long lately. I sent one guy a scope priorty mail two weeks ago and they told me they did not concider it late until 30 days.

Mike

[Linus]

Just to keep things normal around here, I don't agree with any of you. In fact, I strongly object to anything any of you say! I advocate the complete contrary, whatever it is! You're all horribly wrong... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

I also don't lie too good... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/tongue.gif

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

[Sharky]

Hey bro, sling got here yesterday and I am very impressed to say the least. I'm leaving town for a week but will take it to the range when I return. So far though it looks like a great piece of work. Linus, keep your head down.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Enfield]

Little man-to-man talk given by JY to his daughter's Prom date...

"if I can't get a center mass, I'm going to take what I can get. If I see your foot, I'll take it, a hand, a leg, what ever. 190 grs will damage beyond any thought of returning fire anywhere I choose to hit you, I don't have to kill you to make you wish you were dead, or home with mommy. ...There's an old sniper saying "I decide". ...head or center mass, any where I can can hit you, I don't have to kill you to use you."

hehehehe....

[JY]

Hehehe! You got it Enfield http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif I have three daughters and they all can shoot very well with both rifle and pistol. Used to leave their targets out by the work bench when meeting their dates, while cleaning my 1911 http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif When they comment on the nice groups on the targets, I informed them that those were the girls...not mine http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif I found this worked well in gaining respect for both me AND the girls http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif The usual responce was http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif

Take care...Jim

[Linus]

Originally posted by Sharky:
Linus, keep your head down.


Why? I thought you said you aim center mass... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

[JY]

hmmmmmmm...maybe he did Linus, what size hat do you wear http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/tongue.gif

[Linus]

About 59 cm around, shouldn't be too hard even for you old farts... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

[JY]

Linus...we have something in common http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif I wear a 59cm too http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif...Heck I know I can hit that at 800 http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

[Sharky]

I never said center-mass of what though. http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[JY]

I don't know Sharky, we may have to show this YOUNG PUP, just why we're old farts http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/eek.gif

[Linus]

OK, OK! I know when I'm beat...

I wouldn't wanna bite the hands that feed me, so to speak... You want me to chew that for you , gramps? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

[JY]

Gull durn young'uns!! http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/tongue.gif ...next he'll want to take my 20 year old girl friend out for me http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by JY (edited 04-24-2001).]

[Linus]

BTDT. We tried to tell you but you'd mislaid your earpiece, remember? Oh, of course you don't, who can blame you at that respectful age... http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/wink.gif

Or am I to take it you've moved into matchmaking as of lately? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

[Linus]

And incidently, Jim, she's your daughter but we thought we'd humor you since, anyhow, you can't get that walker up the stairs to her bedroom...

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

[JY]

Linus, Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/Cartangry.gif ..........and my daughters are older than that http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

-------------------
Vescere Bracis Meis



[This message has been edited by JY (edited 04-27-2001).]

[Linus]

Wow, Jim! Latin...

Now, I knew you're old but that is friggin' ancient! Antique, even... You speak Greek and Egyptian too?

And Tracy was on Gourd duty during the last supper...where were you? You guys ever get together and dust of your old gear, finding that segmentata of yours almost, but not quite, still fits...

Just how old are your daughters? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Linus (edited 05-03-2001).]

[Watsy]

Sharky,
Thanks for sending me over to this thread...
I have read a couple topics...My head's spinning...So many questions...My SGT. has
three 10/22 Rugers...NOT SS as you suggested,
He says they have NO sights on them yet...
I think I would be better off going NEW
with the HB/ SS...What would be your suggest for sights to put on it...I am trying to ultimately end up going from the AR to the M1A...When I can afford it...

------------------
Take calculated risks.
That is quite different from being rash.
George S. Patton

[Sharky]

Watsy, My advice would be to stay with the AR-15 type rifle if you want to shoot NRA cross-the-course high-power. Women just seem to be more comfortable with it vs the M1A. But to each his or her own. Go with what you shoot best with. As far as getting comfy, well, lets just say that a T-shirt, two sweatshirts and a shooting jacket will rule out you ever being real comfy so no need to worry about that. Just go with the rifle that feels right for you. This is a good place to pick up some great info and there are some guys on here who are better qualified to give advice than I am. Namely, Carl and JY just to name a couple. If I can help in any way, just let me know. I got your e-mail but it's been crazy here and I haven't had a chance to write back. Haven't forgotten though. Let me know if I can help.

------------------
F.I.D.O.

[Linus]

Hi Watsy!

------------------
Honestas supra omnis

[Watsy]

Sharky,

Thanks for the support...I meet Sniperone's
friend today at 0900 on the range.. I can't wait...He's active USMC Sgt...I did not sleep all night...Can't...Wait...I joined our local NRA HP league...here and was with an Sgt.from the SP team yesterday who brought in all his gear to help me figure out how to "SLOWLY" build the gear bag and hopefully Tuesday we can go out to the range and just shoot...He gave me some hand loads .308 and .223 to try today...Let you know...

------------------
Take calculated risks.
That is quite different from being rash.
George S. Patton

[Watsy]

Going to the range today...
Suggestions on building accuracy...
Course of fire...
Remember I got to crawl before I walk...
Any thoughts on what works best???

I know practice and more practice...

Any good drills to suggest???

------------------
Take calculated risks.
That is quite different from being rash.
George S. Patton

[Sharky]

Spend 70% of your training time dryfiring at home. Dryfiring and air rifle are the best tools out there for developing good marksmanship skills. Work on getting your natural point of aim and building good positions. Learn how to call your shot and be honest with yourself on your calls. Remember bone support, not muscle. As a beginner, my advice is to work on marksmanship skills at home dryfiring and while at the range put a lot of effort into learning to read the wind. There's an old saying in HP shooting, You win at the 200, you lose at the 600.

------------------
F.I.D.O.