Moving targets

[Linus]

OK, everybody;

Anyone who recognize this: You have a moving target that is only exposed for a short time so you have a restricted window of opportunity, making it hard to both judge the target speed as well as aquiring a aiming point and steady aim. By the time your done, you have lost the target. Do you:

a: Bite down hard on the brim of your boonie and silently curse yourself silly.

b: Train, train and train, then train some more and finally do some training only to find out that either your war is over or you are now actually older than Gary and JY together.

c: Inject yourself with bizzare agents that are supposed to make your mind lightning fast and your wallet thinner than a bible page.

d: None of the above. I choose to act constructively and _________________________.


But seriously: I'm having difficulties with finding enough time to take the shot when confronted with moving targets. This is especially true in my function as DM and not quite the same probem in a more traditional sniper role. Reflections and helpful advice, anyone? Am I just the most sorry-a$$ pathetic excuse for a sniper in the world, or is this a common problem? Should I opt for a career as a babysitter instead?

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Honestas supra omnis

[This message has been edited by Linus (edited 07-31-2001).]

[NMBR5ML]

Just fling a few rounds downrange. If you hit the target, great. If not, you should get a good look at him as he is engaging your position... Sorry, this is not a serious answer... http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[Gunny Hicks]

Call for Fire. M198's can compensate for obscured moving targets with an open sheath of HE/WP mix. Repeat mission if in doubt.

If danger close, break out the GPS and do a polar plot from your pos, with a point target.

With either of these methods of target engagement you have not revealed your position, and can continue your mission.

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Master Sergeant, USMC Infantry

[Linus]

How about calling up the NSW (nulcear support weapons) section and make them cover my withdrawal from the flank?

Hey! Do you guys have nuke mines? I spoke to this Estonian guy who told me some real funny stuff about his old days in the Soviet army! Shock full of goodies. Or shoud I say he was a blast...

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Honestas supra omnis

[This message has been edited by Linus (edited 08-03-2001).]

[longrange1947]

Use a lead of 1 mil or three to four inches off the leading edge. This can be a snap shot and as long as you are from about 150 to about 50 yards, you will clock him at about any speed. Once hit he is a non moving target :-)



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Hold Hard Guys

Rick B

[USMCSNIPERONE]

I like longranges method,take the shot,reload
and let your spotter tell you the next move.
If your far enough away you can have the next
round down range before the target hears the
report from the first round. You need a good
spotter though.
Semper Fi Sniperone

[Sharky]

Are we trapping or tracking?

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F.I.D.O.

[Sharky]

Rick B. from SC? If so, good to see you here.

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F.I.D.O.

[longrange1947]

Either - Trap or track. Windows are a bit short to track though and trapping is better. Put crosshairs in middle and then "shove to the opposite side" and let the little begger hold 168 (or 175) grains of American technology. If real slow or closer then 50 then just break it on his leading edge. Same effect, slower mover to a stopped stationary KD target. :-)

Sharky you got me.


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Hold Hard Guys

Rick B

[USMCSNIPERONE]

Trapping? We in the USMC called it the
Ambush method.Is" trapping" Army lingo or am I just "old" again?

Semper Fi Sniperone

[longrange1947]

Actually trapping is a British term. We use ambushing as well.

As far as old, I guess that would be relative. Me, I assume I'm old since I'm told that every day with these youngens I work with.

Of course Tactical calls me old and he is throwing stones.



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Hold Hard Guys

Rick B

[Gunny Hicks]

TACTICAL calling someone else old ? Hmmm... since he was standing flank security when Ceaser crossed the Rubikan, I think he qualifies as OLD

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Master Sergeant, USMC Infantry

[JY]

Hey Linus! "Older than Gary and JY togather" http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/frown.gif Anyway ya know that fly doo on your cross wire???? not the verticle one...Well just move the center X in the direction the ..."subject" is moving until that first fly speck is on his leading edge http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/eek.gif then squeeze the trigger like ya squeeze yourself when ya think nobody's looking http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif If the "subject" is slow and old just paste the center of your center x on his leading edge, or if he's fast and young use the same hold if he's angling away/towards ya http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif After doing it enough you'll do it without even thinking about it. Better learn it Linus, ain't no parents going to trust you with their kids http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/eek.gif

BTW, my "baby" is still waiting for those sabot rounds you wiley Nords are using. Here's a pic of my "Baby" may look a little familar to you.
http://wsphotofews.excite.com/026/MI/hz/qA/ff62137.jpg

http://wsphotofews.excite.com/031/Gp/Hc/wS/Ld91987.jpg

Take care, my friend...Jim

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Vescere bracis Meis



[This message has been edited by JY (edited 08-08-2001).]

[USMCSNIPERONE]

Longrange, is the 1947 in your handle your
birthday or when you entered Mil. service? http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

JY, Nice "Baby" you have there! How do you like the scope? Whats the scoop on those
Sabot rounds?

Semper Fi Sniperone

[Sharky]

Nice pics Jim.

How are things at Bragg Rick? You still at SOTIC? Yeah, I still read the posts sometimes at SC but won't be posting anymore. Their anti-law enforcement attitude was a complete turn-off. It seems that most of them are simply varmint hunters with a chip on their shoulders. Very few actual Snipers in attendace there. Oh well, to each his own I guess but, I didn't really feel welcome there after they found out I'm LE. I'm sure you remember that little war. Again, glad you're here. We can use all the experience here that we can get. Might just stir up a little more activity here in SniperNet.

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F.I.D.O.

[longrange1947]

1947 - Hmmmm, could lie and say my IQ but who would believe that? OK, it is DOB. See I have no imagination for these screen names.

Thanks for the welcome Sharky, I do remember the wars and thought they were somewhat silly. Still at SOTIC and a new bunch of pups are coming in next week for another fun filled 6 weeks of fun and games. Bragg is, well Bragg. :-)



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Hold Hard Guys

Rick B

[JY]

hi S1;

I like the Hensoldt Sight 90 a lot, It gives you very little to complain about. It's a 10x42mm day optic with a 26mm tube(1 inch), brightness is very good even with the 26mm. The reticle is an etched glass mil dot, the arrow on the ring just forward of the 3 crowns is the tritium(H3) illumination control for the reticle. Moving this allows you to adjust the brightness of the reticle in poor light, it gives a mint green color which works very well and does not wash out your target. Elevation is handled by a BDC similar to the M3A and windage is in 20mm increments again similar to the M3A. The scope is a Swede Army issue and marked with their property marks, the 3 crowns. A few came in to the US for testing and evaluation and I was lucky enough to obtain one for my PSG90 SWS.

The sabot ammo was developed in Sweden for the PSG90(AI AW) to improve first shoot kill under adverse weather conditions, the faster a projectile moves the less problems you have from wind and such. It's a joke with Linus about getting some for me, it's even rather hard to come by in the Swed. Army http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

I was very lucky to obtain the PSG90(AW) SWS in 1994 in it's metal transit chest with all the goodies in 1994. I've used the weapon a lot and find it to be one of the finest SWS's in the world today, and I've shot most in the world today.

Take care...Jim

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Vescere bracis Meis

[USMCSNIPERONE]

Jim,

Thanks for the info! Its a fine weapon you have there. Are those sabot rounds like the
Accelerator rounds Remington had? They must have a heavier bullet then the 55grn ones
that those accelerators had to shoot in the wind with.
Semper Fi Sniperone

[Linus]

Jim;

You don't deserve such a beaut! Really, the subcal/sabot ammo was developed by Winchester if I'm not totally misinformed. Anyone who could confirm or deny?

By the way, regarding the Psg90/AI96AW, I'm now hearing more and more rumors and murmur that I'll actually be issued a personal one somewhere in the near future, like this coming fall or something. May not sound too cool to some of you guys but to me it's a wet dream!

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Honestas supra omnis

[USMCSNIPERONE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Linus:

Really, the subcal/sabot ammo was developed by Winchester if I'm not totally misinformed. Anyone who could confirm or deny?
--------------------------------------------
No, I'm sure it was Remington,The Index# for them is R30069. I shot them in my 30-06 over 20 years ago,but the acccuracy was something to be desired.

It threw a .55grn bullet just over 4000fps
in a 24in barrel. They also made them for the .308
and the venerable old 30-30,but never had the chance to try those.

Semper Fi Sniperone



[This message has been edited by USMCSNIPERONE (edited 08-16-2001).]

[EchoFiveMike]

IIRC Olin developed the 7.62 SLAP ammo for MG use vs helo's and LAV's. Don't think that the US bought any, since we recently decied to go with M993 and M995 tungsten core full bore AP, but we do buy and use M903 series 50 caliber SLAP. Accuracy is marginal, at least from the M2 I used to crew on. Also the USMC anyway, mandated stellite barrel use only. I had three barrels for my gun, two old steel tubes and one Ramo(IIRC) stellite tube that I used to leave behind in the armory. Accuracy for 50cal SLAP was something like 6" groups at 100 yds. Now it might have been like VLD's and not opened up at longer ranges like bullets tend to do, but I doubt it.

I have played with my own handloaded sabot ammo, and from 30-06 in my pre-64 M70, I'm getting 4250fps from 55gn Nosler BT's. I intend to try some 62gn M885/SS109 projectiles in the near future, but there's only so much time in the day. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

[USMCSNIPERONE]

You guys are right about the SLAP ammo from
Win/Olin. The Rem. stuff was for the civ.
market.

EchoFive, Where did you get the Sabots
that you were handloading? I'd love to stuff
my 7mag with some 80grn Berger VLD's and see
what happens! http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

Semper Fi Sniperone

"Said I didn't have much use for one,never
said I didn't know how to use it."

....Matthew Quigley....

[This message has been edited by USMCSNIPERONE (edited 08-16-2001).]

[EchoFiveMike]

I bought a bunch in 30caliber from a local gunshow. They look very similar to the Rem sabots, probably cranked out by same machinery. The really long projectiles would need longer fingers on the sabot in order to provide stability. The 80gn projectile would probably develop some serious wobble problems in the standard sabots I'm using. Plus they are not available in 7mm. But if somebody wanted to turn them out of round stock nylon 66 it shouldn't be too dificult on a hobby lathe. I happen to known individuals who might have tried this with a 10mm Auto pistol. They might have gotten about 2400fps with a turned down 3/8" HSS drill bit blank, and they might have used Blue Dot powder.

One other thing about the moving target deal, has anyone considered the fact that on most frame houses you could just shoot the BG though the wall? Thoughts? Semper Fidelis...Ken M

[USMCSNIPERONE]

I thought about the "wobble" last night after I posted. It takes a 1-8 twist barrel to properly stabilize that 80grn Berger in
a .223 and a 7mm mag is nowhere close.

On the other hand I do have a 10mm Glock! http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif
Send me the specific's via e-mail if you
would.
On shooting through the wall at the BG, What
about non-combatants being behind that wall,
that we don't see?

Semper Fi Sniperone

[Linus]

As far as accuracy is concerned, the few rounds I've tried so far allowed for about the same group dimensions at nearly twice the distance... I kinda like that.

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Honestas supra omnis

[JY]

hi Linus;

I was under the impression that the sabot rounds adopted for the PSG90 were designed by FMV in Sweden. And were AP, not just .224 bullets in sabots. This is one of the prime reasons they can not be imported.

Also understand that the penetrator is made of a highly toxic material. DSMB...Depleated Swedish Meat Balls http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/eek.gif

Hope you get your PSG90 buddy http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif The bolt moves as smooth as a piston in a well honed cylinder, almost sensual http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/cool.gif

Take care, my friend...Jim



[This message has been edited by JY (edited 08-20-2001).]

[Linus]

Now, that is pornographic...

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Honestas supra omnis

[Linus]

You're probably right, Jim, I think FMV developed it and then ordered Winchester to manufacture it, since it was developed from the Winchester 7.62 SLAP round originally.

When you shoot it you set your scope for half the actual distance, wind and temperature is also halved. Not entirely unimportant in the combat environment over here... It costs about $1,50 per round, though!

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Honestas supra omnis

[JY]

For S1 and others interested in what Linus and I are babbling about the following link will take you to the FMV page about the sabot round used in the PSG90.
http://www.fmv.se/index.asp?K=005011004001&L=UK

Take care...Jim

[Linus]

Edit, edit, delete-delete-delete. There.

Aren't you all very intimidated by the bold statement that concludes FMV's info on the sabot round? "Enemy key personnel, beware!" Ooooh! Scary, ain't it? http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/tongue.gif

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Honestas supra omnis

[This message has been edited by Linus (edited 08-22-2001).]

[Linus]

Apart from all that, has anyone got anything to say regarding the original topic of this thread? I mean, c'mon guys: I know how to use the scope, OK? I just don't seem to be able to distribute the time available for a shot to quite go 'round, and I'm supposed to be fairly quick on target acquisition! At least I used to be before I got into this sniper BS! http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/tongue.gif

And what I really want to know is if any of you recognize this problem? Is it a typical newbie thing, am I just a poor shooter, should I stay or should I go, has papa got a brand new bag, does Hazen do the disco, can I kick it?

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Honestas supra omnis

[USMCSNIPERONE]

AAAHHHH...What was the question?? http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

[JY]

Linus, it's a a newbie thing http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/rolleyes.gif After doing it for awhile it becomes second nature, until then practice http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/eek.gif Concentrate on the sight picture...angled movement plant the cross hair on the targets leading edge, across front fast mover give it a 1/2 to 1 mil lead. If you want the formula;

LEAD IN FEET FROM LEADING EDGE
time of flight (sec) X target speed (fps)


LEAD IN MILS FROM LEADING EDGE


[lead(ft) from center mass X 12]-6
____________________________________
[range X .035


These will give you a rough idea, you may have to modify them for the FMV sabot http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/eek.gif try using your scope and set up the lead on a stationary target and get used to seeing what it would look like in your reticle. Use the formulas, set it up for varying speeds concentrate on the reticle picture, after awhile you'll be able to set up the shoot without having to do the math and eventually without a conscious effort. It's like doing reps, after awhile it's a reaction thing.

take care, my friend...Jim

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Vescere bracis Meis

[colmurph]

This may not be the right place to ask this but....I recently bought a Ruger #1 in 22-250 (Mint condition) that was mounted with a Unertl 20x scope (Once U.S.M.C. Property) from the Viet-Nam era. I bought the rifle to get the scope and paid $750.00 for the combination. At 300 yards it will punch holes in a quarter dollar without knocking it off the target frame. Is the Scope worth more than the rifle? And I hope, more than I paid for it?

[Gunny Hicks]

Hmmm.. I may be mistakemn here. But the Corps was using a redfield variable scope in Vietnam. And I've never heard of a Unertl 20x power being mounted on Marine Corps weapons. All of the current Unertls used by the Corps are 10x.

As I said, I may be mistaken.

But aer you confident that the scope was used by the Corps ?

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Master Sergeant, USMC Infantry

[USMCSNIPERONE]

Originally posted by colmurph:
This may not be the right place to ask this but....I recently bought a Ruger #1 in 22-250 (Mint condition) that was mounted with a Unertl 20x scope (Once U.S.M.C. Property) from the Viet-Nam era. I bought the rifle to get the scope and paid $750.00 for the combination. At 300 yards it will punch holes in a quarter dollar without knocking it off the target frame. Is the Scope worth more than the rifle? And I hope, more than I paid for it?

In a word "YES"! If its the Real Deal You better hold on to it! If you have a serial number maybe you can get more info on it from Unertl and then maybe locate the original rifle it was mounted on. I'm envious Sir!

Semper Fi Sniperone .... and Welcome Aboard!

[USMCSNIPERONE]

Master Sergeant, I think for a brief time period there were quite a variety of scopes being used. I've even heard of scopes being bought at the PX and pushed into service.
It will take some detective work to find out the truth, but it might be worth the effort!

Semper Fi Sniperone

[Gunny Hicks]

Roger that.

I'll ask some of the Vietnam Era snipers (Tom Ferren, Jim Gullarte, Charles Mawhenny) at the Sniper Symposium on 5 Oct. here aboard Pendleton. I'm sure atleast one of them will useful inof on 20x Unertls. And your right... I recall hearing that any scope available was put into service in the early years of getting the program started over there.

Semper Fi


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Master Sergeant, USMC Infantry

[EchoFiveMike]

On the vietnam era Winchester Model 70's in 30-06 the Unertl 8x was used. Same for the Springfield 03's that the USMC used in WWII. I don't know that we used anything different, but as mentioned above, when times got tough, they may have just sent what they had on hand. I suspect it's just a plain jane Unertl, not official USMC, but even if it's not, it's evidentally a very usable scope. Call Unertl. As of four or five weeks ago, they would rebuild them for $175, with a two week turnaround. Obviously, determine if authentic first. If it is, leave it orginal! S/F...Ken M