Mil-dots and speed limits......LOL

[Sharky]

This was taken from another site. I tended to disagree to say the least but decided it might make for an interesting topic over here if we can keep it civil.

"Anybody, that tells me they can mil a target at 1000 yards and be even close is full of shit! After about 500 yards, milling a target becomes pretty useless. The Army teaches this fact and I have found no reason to deny it or prove it wrong. At around 600-700 my milling goes to complete hell and I will challenge anybody and everybody that says they can accurately mil to 1000 yards to show me (at a location that they are unfamiliar with). I know what you were thinking. You were going try and show me at your match on your home turf...no chance. I can tell you what range every piece of grass is at on our range without even looking through a piece of glass!"

So.......what are your thoughts?



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F.I.D.O.

[Echo-8-Hotel]

Invite this arragont, ignorant knucklehead to come out to Pendleton and go through the range estimation exercises that we put our students through. It's the first time for many of them on that particular range, yet they learn. If this individual is not capable of reading mil dots out to range, then he must have a learning disability.

The proof is in the shooting. When we put the steel silhouettes out on the unknown distance range (not the ground tey practiced range estimation on), and force the students to mil out their targets to engage. If they haven't learned this skill, then they will not hit the target, which means they will fail and be dropped from the course.

Has anyone pointed out to him how stupid he sounds claiming that he can't do it. Many Marines have mastered this skill (or they wouldn't graduate form the Scout/Sniper Crs).

[Pat Murphy]

Sharky..
I don't disagree with him. Esp when you get into and unfamiliar AO. It would also depend on the size of the target.

Of course I am no expert on the subject by any means. I know that from setting over the winter and not doing any of it my skills tend to degrade.

I shoot mostly steel ranging in size from 7x14 to 14x14" out to 1000yds or IPSC targets with paper plates on them.

Ranging the steel is very difficult past 600 and the IPSC target is iffy esp with the mirage. The one thing I found very intersting was that if I mil the white side out compared to the dark side I will get a different reading as does everyone else that I shoot with.

If a person is shooting at an iron maiden at 700 to 800yds and you mil it you will probably hit it but if your shooting at a target smaller my bet will be on a miss. Just my 2 cents worth on it.

[0802]

He is partially correct. A good observer with a known sized object can do plus or minus 10% of range at most ranges. Using an Aiming circle or theodolyte (a lot more accurate than the somewhat SWAG in a rifle sight), in order to maintain a CEP less than 17 m's artillery uses the following limits to ensure accurate distances is obtained. M16 (1 meter object) out to approximately 150 meters, with the 2 meter bar out to 250 meters, and with the 60 meter base out to 1,000 meters. As the distance increases the error increases.

If you really want to amaze your friends you can solve the distance with the following equation
Distance = (1/2 size of object)/(tan 1/2[measured angle])

You have to convert the mils to degrees by dividing by 17.778. It also comes in handy to make spread sheets on range of various sized targets.

[This message has been edited by 0802 (edited 11-19-2001).]

[Pat Murphy]

Echo-8
How small of a target can you mil and guarantee a first round hit past 600yds?? I know you guys break yours down into 1/10ths and do quite well at it. I was always curious how small of a target you could mil at longer distance.
As I said before if your shooting at iron maidens thats one thing but past 600yds on a smaller target + or -10% would not be acceptable esp with a 308. Now thats one reason I like my 6.5x284 it makes up for my weak miling and poor wind calls(HA)

[Sharky]

I'd be interested in seeing some more opinions about this but, at this point, I'll have to agree with Gunny. Nobody is saying that it's easy to do, but, it's done on a regular basis at all of the Military schools.

My "Final Shot" at Benning was 760 meters on a maiden. I made the shot and graduated a few hours later. Several did not. Easy? No. Done on a regular basis? Every day. All it takes is a very steady rest, a good eye, and a little practice with some real feedback.

True, as Pat said, as the target gets smaller at those ranges, it will get harder and harder to do but, our targets were 20x40 iron maidens and we had no problem miling them out beyond 800. Bottom line is, like Gunny said, if you can't do it, you won't graduate. Period.

No offense to anyone meant but, that is an indicator of the difference between someone who does it as a hobby as opposed to someone who does it for a living. Our closest targets during field fire at Robinson were at 300 meters and were the 20x20's. Many of us didn't even adjust BDC for a 500m shot. I'm sure there are many on this board who are better shots than I but, come on, 500's weren't even taken seriously unless the conditions were terrible. Anyone who missed a 500 could look to be the butt of a lot of jokes that night over a beer.

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F.I.D.O.

[EchoFiveMike]

Depends on so many thing. Size of target, target color, background, shape, is the thing moving? I think that mil dots are excellent for ranging fixed targets of known size under good light conditions like when you're constructing a range card. Then you extrapolate range when your targets appear off your range card. Or you bust out the LRF and zap the target and get the precise range with no guess work. IRL I think that people are going to be missing a lot of 1000 yd cold bore shots on real moving people. S/F...Ken M

[Echo-8-Hotel]

Alot of good comments. There is no absolute on this issue. The sharpest eye with the best mil dots may be able to accurately mil out the range, but if the shooter isn't that good, or the rifle isn't zeroed properly, or it is a cold bore shot at an extreme distance, the shot may miss (and let's not forget to factor in the cosign of the drag co-eficient extrapulated from the gravitational pull on the round devided by it's velocity.....blah, blah, blah...) .

Range estimation is a perishable skill, and it alone doesn't guarantee that every round will be on target. But combined with a great shooter and a good (zeroed) weapon, then the probabilities of point of aim point of impact is greatly increased. Let's face it though, a great shooter won't hit very often at greater distances if he can't accurately estimate the range.

[Pat Murphy]

Echo-8,

[Pat Murphy]

Echo-8,
Come on now, are you backing off of your original statement??(HA)

Your right and so was he, there are a lot of variables involved in miling a target. Once you get out past 600yds your margin of error goes up considerably. I milled one of the 14"x14" plates in Wyoming at the D&L shoot that my Licas wouldn't range because of the sun and no background. I miled it out to be between 700 and 750 but I got a close to 800 mil on it too. I was shooting the 6.5x284 and hit it but I am sure it was more luck than my skill at miling.

But in all honesty I would not have come even close to it without the mil dots. When I get out of my own backyard I am the S*^#!s at guessing range on anything esp. across big draws and canyons.

I oringinally got into miling becuse the fist year I shot out there the range finders wouldn't work on about a third of the targets. Gooch and Doland talked me into going to the mil dots and now I think there great (Within reason).

Like I said you guys are much more knowlegable than I will ever be at this and I don't mean to tell you you don't know what your talking about. I just know what I have found from personal experience. In my game the targets are small and hard to mil past 600yds period. Once again I don't have your experience either. So I will go back to my original question, how small of a target and how far can you reliably mil and make a fist round hit on it??? Providing the shooter and rifle are up to it. http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/smile.gif

[Pat Murphy]

Where did everyone go??? I was enjoying our discussion on miling. I really would like to know how far you can accuratly mil a smaller target and how small the target can be to make a fist round hit.

I would welcome any comments from you guys who do it for a living. Gooch?? Rick?? anyone??

[USMCSNIPERONE]

From what I can remember about it, way back when! It was always hard to range something that can hide under your mil. dot! I liked using my Spotter with the bino's and compare his estimation with mine and split the difference. You couldn't always hold the Bino's perfectly steady, but the mil.lines didn't cover the smaller targets like the Mil. dots did.
As for how small of a target can you Mil? I always tried to use the formula for a 6ft man, that way if I could only see half it was 3ft and then you could split the upper torso into 1ft increments. Hips to chest-1ft, chest to top of shoulders-1ft, top of shoulders to top of head-1ft. So I guess about the smallest thing I could Mil with confidence at long range is 1ft.Besides that the math was easier! http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/biggrin.gif

Semper Fi Sniperone

[This message has been edited by USMCSNIPERONE (edited 11-21-2001).]

[Gary]

Practice makes perfect.

[Sharky]

You better keep practicing then sweetpea. Get you another spotter while you're at it. Josepy couldn't take the pressure.....LOL

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F.I.D.O.

[longrange1947]

Been busy so missed the original run, but this sounds like an individual that has head firmly up arse. Very broad statement of facts NOT in evidence. First the army does not teach that miling is worthless past 500 meters. I have no idea where, except in his own mind, that he got that info. We have students mil well past 500 meters and do not even set targets closer then 400 meters on our Field Shoot exam.

Accuracy of the mil is dependant on a number of variables. These include target size, KOWING that target size to within inches, contrast with background, and user's ability to see to the .10th as a minimum and being able to interpolate to the .05th. The larger the object and the higher the magnification of the scope will effect the the shooter's ability to range on the object as well.

A tank in the middle of the desert will be easier to mil then a man from shoulder to shoulder. The mil of a man from shoulder to shoulder will cause an error that is outside the ballistic capability of the round, 7.62mm, at 550 to 625 meters (.9 and .8 mils respectively) as .7 mils becomes 714 meters. However a tanks that is 5 meters long will give an accuracy to 1000 meters with a 5 mil reading and a 5.1 would be 980 meters, now within the ballistic capability of the round.

Most who make statements as the above are made by individuals wiht an agenda or with little field time and no imagination to adapt to the environment. I have noted that the Theodolite has been again mentioned, while it is accurate, I would not trust one in the field for fear of it becoming damaged. While the mil dots are not as accurate, I have found that running a 60 meter cord and coordinating the lining up of targets and shooter observer in a hostile environment to not be an option. The mil dots do not rely on batteries, do not rely on senstive equipment, and do not rely on a degree in mathmatics with tables running out of every orifice in the rucksack.

Pat - You asked about accuracy and the range at which it becomes a problem. I hope that I have answered your question in my normal round about way. :-)

Guess it boils down to size of object, and can you accurately see it, as well as know it's actual size.

Oh well back off I go to the range tomorrow for movers and other fun and games.



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Hold Hard Guys

Rick B

[Pat Murphy]

Rick..
I guess there probably is no good answer on this because as you say it will come down to the size of the targets and the individuals ability to break down the mils.

When I got started using mils you and Gooch were good enough to send me a ton of info on them and from that and a lot of practice I was able to figure them out. I started off on IPSC targets and then tried ranging the steel plates that I shoot at.

I didn't do bad on the IPSC targets but when I switched to the plates I had limited success since they varried in size from 7"x14" to 8"x16" and 14"x14". As you can see two are very close in size but yet enough off when miling them it will be a miss(At least of me).

I think I expected to much out of the mils with my limited ability. I hoped to use them to replace the Licas. In some cases they will but I think I was over extending there capabilities or mine anyway.

The targets I was trying to mil were to small and to far away for me to accuratly make good hits on them past 600yds. This is why I agree with what Sharky posted other than, I don't know what the Army does or doesn't teach, to the extent that if the target is small or you don't know the exact size its damn tough to mil it out for a first round hit past 600yds. A 7"x14" target is no iron maiden. I must admit though the year Gooch shot in Wyoming at the D&L shoot he miled a lot of the targets and hit a bunch of them.

[0802]

longrange1947
I can guarantee you that theodolytes, aiming circles and 60 meter bases for range finding/subtending angles have been use more in actual combat than scopes equipped with mil dot sights.

[tactical]

802, all the fancy equipment has been used more on the battle field than a mildot scope? Yes but for the big guns not sniping.

Longrange, has probably logged more time in the field (Militray field Gary LOL) than most of the instrucors USMC or Army combined. He's an old sniper fart (Rick dont kick my ass for that) and alive because he knows what will get him killed.

Just because something works well for guns that are sized in inches does not mean it is good for snipers. Rick/Longrange is completely correct on this issue.

I have found anytime someone comes up with a new idea they tend to find data to support thier idea and miss much else out there.

Sharky, I know who wrote that. he very intelligent and I see why he came up with it for extreme ranges 1200 plus but I tried some of it for sniper ranges and found no way in hell I would go that route. I use my laser when I can and go to mildots for the other.

Nothing is perfect but mildots should be on all sniper weapons. You can do so much more than just judging distance with them.

[EchoFiveMike]

I think Mike hits the nail on the head. Mildots are an excellent tool, one more thing to use. I don't like it as a primary method because it relies on the shooters ability to see contrasting images, as well as hold a rifle very still. It also assumes that you know what size the target is. I've known guys who were mil-ing car rims because that was what they were sure of. IRL you may not have the BG's holding their AK(M16) out for mil, they are going to swing it about, hold it at an angle, etc. Height is good, but it's an average, and it assumes that some body is there to mil. A lot of the work I do is green side, heavily forest ops, and there ain't a damn thing to mil when building a range card. What am I supposed to use, a tree trunk? Pray tell how wide it is? I then use buddy comparision ranging, and map comparison(with shitty ancient maps, just like RL is gonna be). That's why I like lasers. They have limitataions sure, but so does everything else. Doesn't mean I'm taking the mil dots out of my scope. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

[HugoTeufel]

Interesting posts.

I just wanted to add that Rick isn't an old fart, he just looks like one in person.

Hugo

[longrange1947]

0802 stated - "longrange1947
I can guarantee you that theodolytes, aiming circles and 60 meter bases for range finding/subtending angles have been use more in actual combat than scopes equipped with mil dot sights"

This I have no doubt. BUT not in the sniper role in which you must put your knees in the breeze, hump several tens of kilometers, crawl into position in FULL view of the enemy, and the set up your shot.

I am not saying that the mil dots are the only way I am sayin that NOT the useless garbage that the original poster on the other board stated. I mentioned the Theodolite as it has been brought up in the past. While it works for many applications I have trouble with it in the "standard" sniper role unless it is on the perimeter defense and then I let the "cannon cockers" set my ranges for me as they have the heavy stuff to do it right. :-)

There are many ways to set ranges for range cards. One should never dismiss the lowly mil dot as useless as I have heard so many do. They are ignoring a valuable piece of equipment. Come live in my old world when we had 19 inch stadia lines on the Redfield Accutrac or the 30 inch stadia on the ART I and the 1 Meter Bar on the ART II. You will then love the mil dots. Yes the laser is so much better and the Theodolite is so much more accurate as is the aiming circle, when you can get your bases down. But when I see the batteries are dead, the lens is cracked, or the dam thing will not balance, then the mil dot just may work. Just remember to go for the largest object of known size and mil it serveral times. Cross reference with the next largest object in the area and then average if necessary.

As Mike stated, Mils are also good for holds for wind, leads for movers, and you can also snap shoot with a hold for elevation. When going for a soft spot or critical node you can convert measurements from the leading edge and top of the van to the crtitical node inside into mils and hold for that.

Ken - Go for nearest tree and GUESS! :-)

Mike - I only seem old, it is my birthday to day and I had to go to the range with our students. FUN day on movers!

and Hugo, do I look that old? :-)

[0802]

Here is my take on it, admittedly from a non-sniper but someone who uses mils much more than the average sniper. The term is "subtending an angle." If you are subtending an angle and attempting to determine a distance with any degree of accuracy, you have to multiply by 1.0186 to convert the strait line between the cords to the outside angle measurement. I can almost guantee none of you are doing that.


The reason artillery gives limits to the distances that we can use a subtended angle as being accurate is that we often will go in with survey instruments and confirm piece location. The difference between the distance determined by subtending and angle and a PADS/GPSS beyond the aforementioned distances can be outside the permitable error allowed for peace time safety.

I think Ken did a very good job of pointing out the fallacy of relying on Mils to subtend angles and claim they are usable all the time. The may be great when you know the dimensions of the target. But when you start to use "averages" for sizes of objects, you start to incur errors, what happens when the person you are shooting at is 6'5" or 4' 9", it really makes the W used in the equation a bit off. Than you throw in the use of camouflage you reduce you ability to discern the edges of the target, again playing havoc with the M in the equation. Now what happens if they are now standing at a less than ideal aspect? Again the W is now out of wack and inducing error.

The whole point is that subtending an angle using mils is better than nothing, but is not a panacea that some are making them out to be. They shouldn't be the first meathod used to determine range, they should be the back up for when the range finder goes down.


[This message has been edited by 0802 (edited 11-23-2001).]

[tactical]

Rick, just funn'n you. take you as spotter or sniper anyday and feel lucky as hell to have you. I for one look to you when I scratch my head and say WTF is wrong. Hell your the guy who finally convinced me to go with a BDC instead of a 1/4moa adjustment scope. Been happy ever since.LOL

0802, dude bottom line is we are talking sniping and snipers here so what works for snipers is what counts. Many times you wont want to use a laser, depending on the target and the capabilities of the installation, NVDs and many other concerns, so you need something and it sure as hell is not a Theodolite! Mildots work well. Not perfect but acceptable.

I am certain you know more about extreme range range estimation than I do but I use mildots and generally hit what I aim at. Seems to work fairly well for me and watching some new 8541's learn them, they did damm well very quick.

So when all is said and done Sharky says it best
F.I.D.O.

[JHUSKEY]

Hey Sharky,
The original poster of the information, has changed his mind. He and I have an aquaintance that was milling BMP's to 1500 meters in Saudi, and hitting them with a Barrett. And came back with several confirmed. When reminded of that, and the fact our mutual friend taught at USASS for app 6 years, he no longer believes it is not possible to accurately Mil past 500 meters.
There have been several really good posts here on what can be milled and how far.
Pat, like you said, when Gooch was milling the dots out there, its the individual's ability and skill level.
You will find some people who can mil a wheel at 800 meters, and some who can't, but like one person said, when its a known size tank, etc, its how good the person is.
Our original poster realizes his error.
JW

[Linus]

I passed my ranging exams by (in this order) estimating, miling, measuring on the map and then split the difference, in some cases slighting to the advantage of one factor or another on pure gut feeling. I got within the +/-5% limit on all targets and made my shots. I think the farthest (sp/gr?) target was at just beyond 800 metres. I was - and still consider myself - a perfect rookie but of the different methods I employed, miling always came closest to the final result. If it's miling to make or break a shot we're talking about, I'd have to agree with Sharky et al.

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Honestas supra omnis

[This message has been edited by Linus (edited 12-05-2001).]