Police Snipers especially tactical

[SSD]

Originally posted by tactical:
[B]I was told by a former Lance Corp., now sniper instructor that I could not have any idea of what it took to be a sniper because I was only a cop. My wounds were different. I asked if my being shot at in Navy Blue was different than in woodland and if my shooting back was different. He seemed to think it was, having no idea what I do or my brother officers around the country. I laughed at the ignorance then and I still do everytime I think of it. Twenty years full time or four years peace time, you do the math.[B]

tactical, I brought this over here to get Police snipers points of view and to get away from the phony busting on the other thread. It's done so I'm done with it.

Those are interesting comments. Let me ask you this, who does the job more, a military sniper doing it everyday for 4 years or a police sniper pulling out his rifle once every few weeks, months, years?

Can anyone explain what the difference is between a DM, Sharp Shooter, Marksman and a Sniper? Are there any true Police Snipers? Just a name you say?

Let me ask this then, can a military sniper drop into your job and perform it? Can you drop into a military snipers job and perform his?

Look forward to the replies.

[XGEP]

Now, I'm not in the military so it is quite possible that I'm talking out of my ass but here's what I understand the differences to be.

Police Sniper: Engages at 200 yards or less, attached to a SWAT or similar team in almost all cases

DM: Engages at up to 500 yards in defense of a facility or if attached to a FAST team whatever he's told to point his weapon at

Military Sniper: Engages at up to 1000+ yards, more if useing a anti-material rifle like the M82. Marines are deployed in two man teams, not sure about Army. Can be used in defense of facilitys, as I understand this is what they did in Beruit

A military sniper could probably jump into a police snipers job fairly easy (they normally engage at longer distances but that would just make it easyier) Police snipers might have a problem in military work since they don't normally go into hositle environments. DM's could probably go into police sniping fairly easyily too they would just have to re-train on a real sniper rifle (since they use M-16s with scopes)

Again this is just what I've learned from research and such so I'm probably wrong about a few things, anybody who actually does know please correct me.

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XGEP

[c130streamer]

Some excellent points (?) ssd
My observation as an ex Army sniper (Yes B4) who was a sniper in an ABN Inf unit. I agree with the point of not calling Police snipers, but sharpshooters.As part of a scout Plt or attached to a company we did alot of long stalks and observations then spent time on target, sniping is much more involed then just shooting. I have worked with a few PD at ranges and after some chit chat I was under the impression that they considered themselfs as Marksmen not snipers.Now going to a "sniper" course for the P.D would help them understand the finer points of shooting but the rest of the course would be of no use to a Police marksmen unless they hunted on the weekends and wanted to try and stalk Bambi...

[Gary]

Didn't we go through this a few months ago? I think the end result was those that think they are snipers still do and nothing will change their minds.

This is a straight question but do PD's even call their shooters, snipers anymore? Doesn't seem too PC.

[tactical]

Gary, PC or not most departments call us snipers. I agree we went through this a few months ago. I see no need to dig it up again. I think someone could pull up the archives. Plus right now a few folks are likely to say something stupid so lets let it be for awhile.

By the way I looked at who you have at the school these days, that is an impressive line-up. Met several of them this year and all seemed very squared away.

I would be intersted in where the NOrcal Location is. I may drag my sorry old butt to one of the classes so I can see how you guys do it. Never can have too many sniper schools.

Shoot me an email

Mike Miller

[Pat Murphy]

SSD..
Not to start and argument, since I am new to the sight and have not gone through the past posts, but It would probably be easier for the military sniper to go into the police snipers job.
The ranges are much shorter "BUT" much more precise than military shooting and is not always as easy as it looks. Just ask some of your guys who have shot in competition where its geared toward police shooting.
On the other hand it would take a lot less time to become a precision shooter than to learn the wind that kills the long range shot or being able to judge range at UKN distances.
These are skills not easly learned and require thousands of rounds down range. But on the other hand don't think all police snipers can't shoot past 100yds either, right Mike??

[JHUSKEY]

Originally posted by XGEP:


Police Sniper: Engages at 200 yards or less, attached to a SWAT or similar team in almost all cases




Unless the officer is a member of Dallas Fort Worth Airport police with his 300 mag.
Or from any other airport police, then his distances are a little more than 200 yards.

[JHUSKEY]

Originally posted by c130streamer:
Now going to a "sniper" course for the P.D would help them understand the finer points of shooting but the rest of the course would be of no use to a Police marksmen unless they hunted on the weekends and wanted to try and stalk Bambi...

Until you get to the rural South where we surveil Meth Labs that are guarded by thugs with M16's and patrol their perimeters on foot with dogs and on four wheelers, who also practice mad minutes. And there are other places where fieldcraft is required, but not generally in a city with lots of pavement, which is not the total police working environment.
The FBI team that had to take down H. Rap Brown after he killed the Atlanta police officers were in the middle of the woods near Selma, Alabama, while he hunted them with a Mini 14. They appreciated the training they had received from the Seals at Little Creek, the training from Quantico, and the training from Ft. Bragg prior to the Olympics in Atlanta.
And when they were in the North Carolina Mountains looking for Eric Rudolph, the wanted bomber, the fieldcraft they were taught came in very handy.
It seems there are a number of misconceptions about what tactical police do and what their training needs are.
It also disregards that military and police work together in field operations in drug interdiction, and military aviation units regularly support these efforts.

[HmtPD2]

We still call 'em snipers in Ca.

[SSMV]

My perspective: who cares? It is not a "title" that makes a sniper team (military or LE) good, it is not their equipment, it is, however, the caliber of men that make up that team, their willingness to train, and their motivation.

For the longest time man has been trying to make statistics and analyze data for everything there is, but there are some things that just can't be measure. For example, the desire in one's heart, or his motivation. We could never determine a person's initiative or his drive with data and the same goes with snipers, military or LE. If that individual who is doing the job, loves what he does, is willing to study, observe, train, and learn from both himself and others than he is going to excel. Therefore, I don't see the point in trying to compare the two; as long as they are the best at what they do, what does it matter?

I am not trying to start any crap here, I am just stating my opinion about a topic that I think has no real answer.

[Pat Murphy]

You guys both bring up good points. I live in South Dakota on the plains and sometimes its as flat as a table top. I was a former State Trooper and we would have to deal with any rural problems that may crop up. The area you work will dictate the type of training you need.

As far as the personel I know there are some damn hard core police snipers out there who take their job seriously and train as hard as any military sniper.

When I had that slot I shot nearly everyday in every kind of weather so if the time came there would be no surprises for me.

I also shot out to 500 and 600yds on a regular basis, that way a 200yd shot was a chip shot for me. Stay safe!!

[c130streamer]

Good point jhusky... I was thinking more in terms of the shooter in the city streets.

I in no way am saying that one is better then the other for I have much respect to anybody who can look down the scope of a rifle see his target up close and shoot.

I was trying to point out that the job for us military was different then that of an L.E.and what I was taught in School about snipers was different then what L.E do.

I didnt know L.E used ghillie suits and stalked there pray...now I know that in some circumstances that is the case.



[This message has been edited by c130streamer (edited 10-05-2001).]

[PD Shooter]

Top Morris a well known Marine sniper had a lot of good things to say about police snipers at the sniper PME the other month. He compares all snipers and considers it a brotherhood. He was all for allowing police to go to military schools if they could get the time.

[Pat Murphy]

PD Shooter
Thats been kicked around alot and the problem is that the military training, though useful, is frowned upon by the public and courts. The problem arises when you get a gungho young officer in with a bunch of gungho military guys and it tends to carry over into the civilian job. Some think that because of the military training an officer may be to quick to pull the trigger.

Military snipers do not have to live with the civil litigation that police snipers do. Some of this came up in trials with SWAT teams being trained by military units.

Personally I think its a bunch of crap and you should get the best training possible to do your job. Military snipers could probably benifit from some police schools esp. with all the urban fighting that the military is doing.

[fish78]

I am not trying to start a war or even offend anyone, but out of curiosity where and by whom was Lon Horiuchi (Ruby Ridge and Waco) trained?

[JHUSKEY]

Originally posted by Pat Murphy:
PD Shooter
Thats been kicked around alot and the problem is that the military training, though useful, is frowned upon by the public and courts. The problem arises when you get a gungho young officer in with a bunch of gungho military guys and it tends to carry over into the civilian job. Some think that because of the military training an officer may be to quick to pull the trigger.

Military snipers do not have to live with the civil litigation that police snipers do. Some of this came up in trials with SWAT teams being trained by military units.


The current prohibition against the military training police other than at Bragg re: drug interdiction and anti-terrorism, is a 1996 DOD memo,(after Waco) that might have a chance to be changed since September 11. There is a move afoot to try this. It may never fly though. But the current thinking is that both have much to offer to each other.
The police are being put into more military type situations and the military is being put into more and more police type situations.
About 4 months ago, 10th Mountain was in Croatia, manning a roadblock with Sniper overwatch. The local terrorists decided to come shoot up the neighborhood and there were 4 of them with AK's in a car shooting up the neighhborhood.
Sniper team requested permission to fire and was denied. The bad guys went up shooting at the roadblock. No permission requested, return fire done, and Snipers were permitted to fire.
The Barrett disabled the vehicle. It went back in the village and crashed. The driver was deceased, and one passenger deceased on the ground. Two others fled. Their buddies in the village sanitized the scene.
Then they cried "Murder" on the Snipers and roadblock crew, for killing unarmed people.
It turned out that the driver was killed by a roadblock bullet, the passenger from a sniper round, and the car was killed by the Barrett.
It seems that the sanitizers failed to get one AK empty case out from under the drivers body.
The good part was there was an FBI team there teaching forensics to the Croatians and did residue analysis on the two dead and from the ONE recover case. It matched.
10th Mtn guys cleared of murder charges thanks to a combination of military and police cooperation.
And more and more of this crap happens every day.
So it seems to some of us that cross training is helpful to both the military and police.

[JHUSKEY]

Originally posted by fish78:
I am not trying to start a war or even offend anyone, but out of curiosity where and by whom was Lon Horiuchi (Ruby Ridge and Waco) trained?

Can't answer 100 percent.
BUT when Horuchi went through, a retired Marine was both head firearms instructor and head armorer. (And he's a nice guy, so I won't name him here). He is now retired. At that time, all FBI snipers went next door to the Marine base and were trained by Scout Snipers, to include Gunny Hathcock. One agent who went through at the same time Horuchi did was trained personally by Hathcock.
And when the HRT was first formed, they were trained by DELTA.
The current armorers and instructors are at least 90% former Marines.
Nobody wants to say at this point who actually trained him.
I'm sure a good newspaper reporter, under the freedom of information act could get the details though.
I'm not sure it would be of any benefit to publish it though.

[fish78]

Huskey,
Understood.

[PD Shooter]

Originally posted by JHUSKEY:
Can't answer 100 percent.


The FBI does have an in-house course run mainly by their own cadre with a few Marines TAD to them from Quantico. I would think the FBI shooter was taught well as far as his skills were concerned. Center mass.

[JHUSKEY]

Originally posted by PD Shooter:
The FBI does have an in-house course run mainly by their own cadre with a few Marines TAD to them from Quantico. I would think the FBI shooter was taught well as far as his skills were concerned. Center mass.

Thats why I said I cannot answer 100 percent. Only the FBI people who went through at that time can tell you who their TAD Marines were at their class. And The FBI Cadre at that time were mostly former Marines. And yes, he was taught well, but...

There were a couple of people who also went through at that time who only fired their rifle in training 200-250 times in 10 years and never cleaned the rifle, and that was found out when a new guy took over the rifle. One of those infamous rifles was also off 3 feet left and 2 feet low, and the guy had been on several call outs with the rifle in that condition. So you never know with these guys.
Under Bill Clinton, training took a far back seat in the bus. And you know how it is to be thrown under the bus.

[Pat Murphy]

Huskey,
Well put, no matter who trains someone the individual will only achieve a level of proficiency that he himself desieres to achieve. If the person does not have the desire to be the best he can at what he does and trains hard to stay at the top of his game he will be only be a so so shooter. As we all know shooting is a skill the degrades without practice.

You can be tought by the best people in the best schools and unless you practice and shoot alot you won't be worth a s*#^ when the bloon goes up.

[Sharky]

Speaking of which, get this. My agency will not allow me to shoot ammo that is non-issue in my service weapon. I go to the range once or twice a week. They issue us 150 rounds of training ammo per quarter. Do the math. 150 rounds per quarter doesn't last very long. So, I put in a request for more training ammo with the justification that I am striving to improve/maintain my skills and that I want to start shooting some PPC matches here locally. I was told that since my qualification scores were almost perfect (the Q course is a joke) that there was no justification for me to be issued more ammunition. If I had failed to qualify it wouldn't be a problem to get more since they have more ammo than they know what to do with but, since I did actually qualify, there was no need. They also couldn't understand how shooting PPC could improve my shooting skills. The statement was made that my score was high enough that, I could afford to let my skills deteriorate somewhat before I needed extra shooting practice other than the quarterly quals. I'm not joking here. This happened yesterday and this is a Federal Law Enforcement Agency. The same agency who holds claim to almost 80% of Fed LE shootings in the last ten years. Can you believe that?

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F.I.D.O.

[fish78]

Its perfect government think: Why should we allow proficient shooters to use all the ammo? We must only allow nonproficient shooters to shoot in order for them to gain the proficency necessary so as not to need additional ammo. You tax dollars at work.

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"If you are in a fair fight, your tactics suck."
Herschel Davis

[Pat Murphy]

Sharky,
When I was first issued a sniper rifle when I was on the State Patrol I was given a 3 20rd boxs of 150gr Core Lock bullets with another partial box. I called them a week or so later and ask for more ammo and they came unglued!! I had shot up the years supply in a week and when they gave me one more box of 20 I was told that it had better last me for the rest of the year.

I bought a couple of more boxes of it and then set up my cronogaph and duplicated the load, started reloading and proceeded to wear out their rifle(HA).

I got the job because the "Sniper" who was covering out team during a call out made the statement one night that he didn't know if he could pull the trigger on another human being because of his religious beliefs. I about crapped my pants and ask him what he was doing as a sniper then and he said they made him one because he was a good shot!!

I found out how good of a shot you had to be when they tested me. I had to run 100yds in a gas mask lay down load 5 rounds and hit a 6" bulls eye at 100yds. Congradulations kid your now our new sniper!!

Thank God things in that department have now changed. But where I work now we have a guy who barely qualifies and I wanted to take him out to the range and work with him over the weekend and they would not let us check out our duty weapon over the weekend to practice. They were worried about liability!!!

[Sharky]

Now, they are getting really pissed. I sat down and looked at the firearms policy and found a loophole that they can't close....heheheh.

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F.I.D.O.

[longrange1947]

Only been doing this for a little while but the question seems to me to be rather elitist. Who is best military or LEA. Training is best, egardless of uniform or job.

It also seems from some posts: >>I got the job because the "Sniper" who was covering out team during a call out made the statement one night that he didn't know if he could pull the trigger on another human being because of his religious beliefs<<

Taht the powers taht be have forgotten teh first line of the sniepr definition, "A selected voluteer,"

Does not bode well. Feel bad for your guys Pat. Not their fault, just not the proper oversight within the powers that be. :-(



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Hold Hard Guys

Rick B

[Pat Murphy]

Hi Rick,
Hows things going?? Did you get my e.mail??

Its always been that way though. The people who are running the show usually don't have a clue.

I didn't mean to make it sound like I was drafted into the position, I "Did" volunteer for the position. Also that was back in the 70s when a police sniper rifle was a hunting rifle off the shelf. Usually a 30-06 with a 4 or 6x scope shooting hunting ammoo and not even a heavy barrel.

Like I said thank God somethings have changed but it seems there is still the "Sludge" at the top guming things up.

[tactical]

Pat, I knew I liked you but never knew you were even older than me at this. I like be a youngster.LOL I do remember the days of crappy equipment and no ammo. I do the teaching now so I get to say how much ammo they need. All they can carry of course!

Rick, we need to get out with walkers and canes together for drinks real soon. LOL

Cop, Armmy, Marine, Navy, Air Force, who really cares. I let my weapons skills do the talking on my abilities. Not thinking I am all that just I work very hard at keeping the few skills I have. Too many get caught up in you aint s... unless you are blank. No matter where you are just be professional. No Pee Pee contest here

[Pat Murphy]

10-4 Mike, I usually need a few minuets in a hot shower to get some of the parts moving in the morning. I wish they would have had this kind of stuff when I was younger. I will be 56 next year and told my wife that last year would be my last year for competing esp the ball buster in Wyoming but then I hate to admit I am getting old. I am still 18 in my mind(HA).
Besides it gives me a reason to have to stay in shape and its the one chance me and my son get to spend togeather doing something we both love to do without the women!!

[longrange1947]

>>Taht the powers taht be have forgotten teh first line of the sniepr definition, "A selected voluteer,"<<

Holy COW, Knew I have been sleepy but that post looks like it was written by a moron! OK, I know that that is an opening that most can not pas up but again I have been tired lately. :-)

Pat I knew that you had volunteered, what worries me is that a lot of times the highers say "..... ......report for sniper training Monday." They do not understand that it takes a person who wants this job to do this job. It is scary to think of a shooter behind a gun that may not be able to take a shot because his mind set is wrong.

Actually it has happened in the past and one time is too many times.



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Hold Hard Guys

Rick B

[Brian K. Sain]

Longest documented shot in US on a human target by an LEO sniper is over 500 yards (West Virginia State Police). 2006

Was roughly 185 yards for years (Pennsylvania State Police).

Norman Mayer incident in DC was a fusilade unleashed by several and is not really counted in LE sniper circles ... that one was 475 or so if I remember correctly.

Closest is 5 yards and the average is 51.3 yards (urban America).

For LE ... it is often at night, on a mover, with a hostage.

And ... we are shooting US CITIZENS (although they be criminal or crazy), who are protected by the same Constitution we are right up until we have to shoot them.

We are also shooting them ... in OUR country as opposed to enemies ... in theirs.

The Marine who was put through the ringer for shooting the insurgent with the media around ... that's where a cop lives every day.

Shooting ... is shooting.

ROE and how we get where we are going primary differences ... imo.

[yojinbukai]

A good friend of mine who worked with us for a while was a 4th Force senior NCO (E-8) and was a Sniper (and instructor, I believe.) He was concurrently a sniper with Reno P.D., having shot at least one person that he spoke of, in the line of duty as a sniper.

He often mentioned that while the jobs of militar snipers and civilian snipers are different, they are also very similar. Observe and report, don't be easily found, and be in a position to do the most good for the people you are covering with precise engagement capabilities.

Though I'm not a sniper by any stretch of imagination, I would wager that the predominance of both jobs (mil and leo) is spent observing, reporting, and documenting activity. In MIC / LIC, the jobs are sure to be very similar.

By the way... airports aren't the only intermediate range engagements for police snipers. In rural Nevada, one could easily be forced to cover a team / location/ or suspect from more than 500 yards.

Just my observation from the outside.

[The Corporate Guy]

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

[noslorob]

November 01 tp September 07 WTF?

[Finger]

I know a little bit about both. Marksmanship is marksmanship. The missions are totally different. The rules of engagement (military) and deadly force statutes (police) are like apples and oranges, and hard to compare. The fieldcraft and supporting arms requirements are much more extensive for military snipers. Some urban techniques trade back and forth well.

Both jobs and men are to be respected.

[skirmishline]

I don't mind being considered a sharpshooter. Not in light of the fact that a Confederate "sharpshooter" killed Union General John Sedgewick at an estimated half mile with a Whitworth rifle. "They couldn't hit an elephant....." :D

I thought I was a sniper when I completed the five week XVIII Airborne Corps AMTU sniper school at Ft. Bragg in 1985. The school included lots of fieldcraft so we didn't consider it just an advanced marksmanship school.

But a few years later the Army opened the official course at Ft. Benning and I learned that my little in house unit schooling didn't count in the minds of some. You see, I'd trained with an M21 on a 600 yard KD range and anyone knows you have to shoot a bolt rifle on a 1000 yard range to be a real sniper.

But seriously, I don't get too caught up in the job title. We call ourselves police snipers in my department but you don't have to consider me a sniper if you don't want to. I consider Rifleman as honorable a title as any. Not saying I am one but it's the light at the end of the tunnel that I strive for.

[skirmishline]

I think this video clip goes well with this thread:

http://www.bangedup.com/bu_posts/aSNIPERSHdwdwd.MPG

Enjoy. ;)

[NightLandNav]

Longest documented shot in US on a human target by an LEO sniper is over 500 yards (West Virginia State Police). 2006


…

And happened 5 years after what was the last post in this thread for 6years... until yesterday. The problem is the context of the discussion has been lost, and the premise would be better served if a new thread was started to discuss it. There are many LEO and Military on the board who would likely lend to it, if the topic was relevant, and not the last half of a 6year old debate.

[Brian K. Sain]

Roger.

Didn't want to dupe the thread.

However, the events being discussed are just as relevant right now as they were in 2001.

I didn't even look at the date before posting.

Gunny Hathcock and I spent an entire afternoon talking about this very thing.

Same fights he fought in the 70s ... those in the sniper community (blue and green) are still fighting right now.

The more things change ... the more they stay the same.

Glad you SOF guys are on our side.

out

[OZEbullfighter]

Some great points about swapping over...

One thing that i read, was about LE snipers being called snipers...

I remember doing a course on marksmanship and in the history of sharp shooting it explained about bored brittish soldiers taking pot shots at a very small and elusive bird called a "SNIPE" hence if you hit the bird you were a good shot and a sniper..
(someone inform if my recollection of this story is wrong)

Now i know in mil terms a sniper is well we all know.
Personally having trained with both LE and mil snipers they serve their purpose and are so usefull at what they do..
both have their own demons to chase...