SERE, Survival Questions. [Archive] - SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network

GreenTip556

24 July 2010, 20:20

Cold1

24 July 2010, 22:46

sniperted

25 July 2010, 11:20

I think you might be missing the point, SERE training isnt an exchange of ideas "Adult Learning" (PC) environment. Like Sniper School, Ranger School, Airborne etc. you keep your mouth shut and your eyes and ears open.

"The beatings will continue until Morale improves!"

Hopeless Civilian

25 July 2010, 11:46

Quick question to satisfy my curiosity. If a student managed to evade capture ( I know it would never happen but humor me :biggrin:), would that student fail for not completing the course?

BertF

25 July 2010, 18:28

How you gonna evade capture. It is not exactly a fair contest. They have a lot of electronics on their side. They know where you are before you do.

The Fat Guy

25 July 2010, 19:00

-21, I should go again...;)

- 19 SERE
- 54 ranger school

Yea I should go back to both

That said, I never had a burning desire to share shit with any of them. Like was said earlier, not a small group environment

SOTB

25 July 2010, 19:58

If a student managed to evade capture ( I know it would never happen but humor me :biggrin:), would that student fail for not completing the course?The system is set up to allow for great evaders. I won't go into any further detail on the US schools.

However, myself and a C Co, 3rd Recon guy evaded capture during a SERE-ex in Thailand while training with the Thais. Everyone else in the platoon-reinforced was captured. Not us. We somehow (I don't know that it was our stealthy abilities) managed to slide right through the enemy lines and wound up fairly far from the training site (part of that was from catching a ride from some cool monks in a Bhat-bus). Anyway, we wound up at the equivalence of a truck-stop, and in exchange for letting these Thais look at things like our K-Bars, the customers at the restaurant bought us food, drink (Cokes), and two really good-looking Thai chicks came and hung out with us.

The next day we woke up and were apparently roughly 100m from the command post for the entire ex (it was inside a wat). After we had breakfast, we walked over and turned ourselves in. Whereupon we were taken to an island and starved for several days. All our buddies thought we were pretty much idiots for turning ourselves in -- even though the Thais were getting a little anxious with two unaccounted Marines wandering the hinterland all alone....

Guy

26 July 2010, 00:46

Is it unreasonable to think that with all the students that have been through, and all the years that it has been taught, that not one student has shown something useful to the instructors that they have not seen before?The instructors are NOT sitting around making up stuff, they're always seeking out better ways for doing things.:cool:

There would be a zoo out there with demonstrations and different ways of how to trap and kill animals IF, the military didn't stop it. 1SG OZ had to stop one instructor (CJ) from bringing a bear cub back to SERE after he went home to WV on a hunting trip.

BTW...trying to keep an eye on students who are hungry and being chased ain't that easy with the shit they come up with.:eek:

Stay safe.

Cold1

26 July 2010, 07:49

There would be a zoo out there with demonstrations and different ways of how to trap and kill animals IF, the military didn't stop it.

Thanks Guy, I believe that I understand now. I have spent to much time in the Corporate world where everybody "has something to bring to the table". I have forgotten that during military training there is none of that. The instructors are the subject matter experts and the student is just that, a student. Its not a hand holding, warm showers together, lets talk kinda environment is it.:biggrin:

Highspeed160th

26 July 2010, 07:58

FG, I understand but I believe Ranger school is about 1/3 of SERE. I think Guy should go on the Biggest Loser.

BKK

26 July 2010, 14:08

The system is set up to allow for great evaders. I won't go into any further detail on the US schools.

However, myself and a C Co, 3rd Recon guy evaded capture during a SERE-ex in Thailand while training with the Thais. Everyone else in the platoon-reinforced was captured. Not us. We somehow (I don't know that it was our stealthy abilities) managed to slide right through the enemy lines and wound up fairly far from the training site (part of that was from catching a ride from some cool monks in a Bhat-bus). Anyway, we wound up at the equivalence of a truck-stop, and in exchange for letting these Thais look at things like our K-Bars, the customers at the restaurant bought us food, drink (Cokes), and two really good-looking Thai chicks came and hung out with us.

The next day we woke up and were apparently roughly 100m from the command post for the entire ex (it was inside a wat). After we had breakfast, we walked over and turned ourselves in. Whereupon we were taken to an island and starved for several days. All our buddies thought we were pretty much idiots for turning ourselves in -- even though the Thais were getting a little anxious with two unaccounted Marines wandering the hinterland all alone....

The story would have been even better if you guys stopped for a massage and a Singha enroute! Still a good one though.

SGTROCK

26 July 2010, 16:15

The story would have been even better if you guys stopped for a massage and a Singha enroute! Still a good one though. "failrly far from the training site" translates in my book to Pattaya!:biggrin:

Rock

Horned Toad

27 July 2010, 14:58

Let me elaborate on the question a little more. I am not just talking about the food aspect of it but also the technical side of things. For example a different kind of trigger for a dead fall, an additional use of a plant, just something the instructors did not know. Did a student ever "bring something" to the table that was different or new for the SERE instructors?

Is it unreasonable to think that with all the students that have been through, and all the years that it has been taught, that not one student has shown something useful to the instructors that they have not seen before?

Standard disclaimer: I have never been to SERE and will never go.

I know there are some now famous military type survival gurus on TV saying they are self taught and did not learn any survival skills in the military but as has been sated in the thread the guys at the SERE at Bragg at least knew their shit when I went through in the early 90s. The guys that did the field craft part knew their shit and were always out learning more. The guy that taught edible plants was always out eating those plants and learning more. And when students ate the wrong plants he would go to the hospital to get first hand accounts of the effects of eating the wrong plants.

Are there a million ways to skin a cat sure, are there students that may know a different way of doing things than how they teach it at the school, sure. But does a guy show up who is now going to show the SERE Instructor “ How its done” no

keird

27 July 2010, 16:41

I'm not a BTDT but...

I did witness a student whittle the components and then string a compound bow with 550 cord. The instructor stated that he’d never seen that before.

SOTB

27 July 2010, 16:57

"failrly far from the training site" translates in my book to Pattaya!The story would have been even better if you guys stopped for a massage and a Singha enroute! Still a good one though.Well, I can report that while it didn't involve Pattaya (that would have been another 40km or so), the C Co dude did have a Singha (I didn't, but I just have never felt comfortable having a beer on duty), and we both had happy endings (no massage) -- pretty Thai girls are still pretty Thai girls -- even if not in Pattaya.

So all-in-all, it really wasn't a "bad" night....:tongue:

MacDuff

27 July 2010, 17:12

I'm not a BTDT but...

I did witness a student whittle the components and then string a compound bow with 550 cord. The instructor stated that he’d never seen that before.

A compound bow...like with cams and everything?

Thats a hell of a lot of whittling.

27 July 2010, 18:00

I didn't lose weight, but that's because I never stopped eating. We had these compressed cereal bars that the flyboys refused to eat. I took all that were offerred and chewed on them non-stop. They tasted like cardboard, but kept hunger pains away (probably because they tasted like cardboard and had a zillion calories).

Black Knight

27 July 2010, 18:56

I went in 04' at the Warner Springs facility and we had one female Marine with us who seemed a little too happy to be there... Found out an instructor was trying to score favors by bringing her food on the side. They both got removed and that's the last I heard of it. Other than that, you're about as lucky at getting food as Elmer Fudd is at trying to catch Bugs...literally! Those little bastards are fast....

GT556

I went through Warner Springs in January of 04' and it was colder than a well diggers ass. It would reach around 60-70 in the day then drop down below freezing every night. I had no problem what so ever spooning with my nav partner.

And I don't think it's physically possible to put on weight while you are there.

keird

28 July 2010, 04:46

A compound bow...like with cams and everything?

Thats a hell of a lot of whittling.

Yeah. Cams and bow. It was small and only made an arrow go 50' or so, but it was cool and functional.

JAFO

29 July 2010, 19:03

Warner Springs memories. "GRAB YOUR RAGS!"

I am very greatful for the instructors that I had, as well as the influences that created the "schools". See below for excellent examples:

ADM James B. Stockdale
CDR John McCain
SN Doug Hegdhal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Hegdahl)

Doug was our "political re-educator" for our internment. I have to say, that was one of the most memorable portions of of the class. We were also liberated by a SEAL platoon from ST1. Lots of "bad guys" on the ground:biggrin:

GreenTip556

30 July 2010, 10:23

Ah Warner Springs.....BOOTS!!! BOOTS!!! BOOTS!!!...."Look to me....*pain*..."...I was never a good rock gardner....oxymoron: comfort wood...lol. memories!

We never got "liberated" or encountered SOF forces though...but there was a semi-emotional moment that will ensure I will always stand proud during colors instead of hauling ass at the 5min warning.

I will say this though, the less you know about SERE school going in, the better your training will be. If you know all the little tips and tricks, it takes away from the end result, which is teaching you "fear inoculation" (fancy word for how to put up with all the unknown crap that's coming your way).

On top of that, it's no secret that you'll be hungry the whole damn time!
Learning new things in the field training keeps your brain off hunger. If you know all this stuff going in, the training will seem like a review and you will be thinking about snacking on little woodland creatures instead of the lesson and life will suck infinitely worse.

The fear of the unknown and the dread of what comes next are what drives the school. Keep it interesting and hold off on gouging the course!

However, land nav with an orienteering compass is DEFINITELY a plus considering you will be integrated with those in combat MOS/NEC's and will want to be able to hold your own. A lot of people are first introduced to nav at SERE and it steepens the learning curve for the whole class.

I found studying the stuff you learned in the course more in-depth is a good way to go. You can build on a practical foundation that way and it will help ingrain survival skills in you that most people tend to data dump unless it is prominent in their job or skill set.

have fun!

Very respectfully,
GT556

sixgun

30 July 2010, 13:39

WRT the original question - Do students ever bring anything to the table?:

I taught (and still teach) SERE. Started just after VN ended and was mentored by some of the best Survival and Rescue folks a fellow could have the forturne to meet.

When I first started an old, crusty, mean SOB (best guy I ever had in the "mentor" department), named Joe Hall, layed down the law to me. He insisted that two things had to happened every time I went into the woods/desert/arctic/jungle/open ocean/RTL with a group of students:

1. They must meet the objectives - so I had to teach them to proficiency (not just "expose" them).

2. I had to learn at least one thing from student - every trip.

Eventually, I got in the habit Joe had - if I had not gotten a new TTP from someone by the evening before we turned them loose for evasion, I just set them all down and said "Somebody show me somethingg I don't know."

Inevitably, some guy would pony up item. "My gramps used to make skin like this." or "My auntie uses sulfur like you use the smoker, only she uses it for apple slices. They keep all winter." or "WE used to use the inner bark of willow trees for aspirin."

So, yes, students can bring something new to the table. Seldom earth shattering, but something. And in the process, usually, the whole group realizes that they know more than they think they do - it is just in forgotten memories...

I've learned a lot from my students over the years.

Cold1

30 July 2010, 16:47

Thank you sixgun.

JAFO

30 July 2010, 17:00

Thank you sixgun.

x100

bugeater

8 August 2010, 07:12

I taught (and still teach) SERE.

Sixgun, where do you teach now?

To the OP, what sixgun said. It's not all the time, but sometimes they'll share something with you that's woodsy good to know stuff you hadn't heard before.

Nimja

19 August 2010, 19:17

Quick question to satisfy my curiosity. If a student managed to evade capture ( I know it would never happen but humor me :biggrin:), would that student fail for not completing the course?

No, you won't fail. But you may not get a sandwich either!

sixgun

19 August 2010, 19:26

Bugeater - I teach private sessions in the Bitteroot & Sawtooth, occasionally use the Ruby Creek area north of Spokane for clients that just need a tune-up...

lavbo0321

23 August 2010, 17:04

The system is set up to allow for great evaders. I won't go into any further detail on the US schools.

However, myself and a C Co, 3rd Recon guy evaded capture during a SERE-ex in Thailand while training with the Thais. Everyone else in the platoon-reinforced was captured. Not us. We somehow (I don't know that it was our stealthy abilities) managed to slide right through the enemy lines and wound up fairly far from the training site (part of that was from catching a ride from some cool monks in a Bhat-bus). Anyway, we wound up at the equivalence of a truck-stop, and in exchange for letting these Thais look at things like our K-Bars, the customers at the restaurant bought us food, drink (Cokes), and two really good-looking Thai chicks came and hung out with us.

The next day we woke up and were apparently roughly 100m from the command post for the entire ex (it was inside a wat). After we had breakfast, we walked over and turned ourselves in. Whereupon we were taken to an island and starved for several days. All our buddies thought we were pretty much idiots for turning ourselves in -- even though the Thais were getting a little anxious with two unaccounted Marines wandering the hinterland all alone....

Your experience sounds very much like mine. Pix of myself in the back of a fish truck in Thailand. Working our way back to the beach.

Dball10

6 October 2010, 17:08

Warner Springs

All the prickly pears you could eat, 110 during the daytime, and 30 at night. Great times!

JAFO

7 October 2010, 13:54

No, you won't fail. But you may not get a sandwich either!

Sandwich?! 1/2 cup of luke warm, soupy sweet rice, imbedded with dirt for us. They must have put you up at the Four Seasons! :biggrin:

Nimja

8 October 2010, 12:47

Ha! No I didn't get the sandwich! I evaded capture and the "friendly" says I'm sure you heard if you made it you get a sandwich or something but I don't have anything for you other than you can hide out here a while longer before you have to go in. Some how being the last 4 guys to get picked up may not have been the best plan either...

But you know, if I were had to do it again... I'd like to try a distance learning class from the Four Seasons!!! I think your onto something. ;)

Mr. Yoda

10 October 2010, 01:20

HA! Bring your A game...probably one of the best schools in the army...
In the end you learn one thing...
DONT become a Prisoner!
Nick Rowe wanted it to be much, much longer. This is one of the only times i will thank the O network for wise thinking....that would be horrible!

My main survival instructor was a retired smaj (SMG) from 5th group...this guy did civil war re-enactments from the civil war. Seriously. Living in the mountains with a bear-skin thong. Negative temps in Ashville....impressive. You think your tough....prepare to be humbled. I was, I am, and I continue to be....

cheers mate! Enjoy the swim......

chip8541

11 October 2010, 06:47

....oxymoron: comfort wood...lol.

However, land nav with an orienteering compass is DEFINITELY a plus considering you will be integrated with those in combat MOS/NEC's and will want to be able to hold your own.

My butt thanks you for the reminder.

My Navy Lt F18 pilot partner: "In the air and counting ridgelines is so much easier to me..Are we on this finger?"

Later while hiding from instructors in the first pile of noisy veg that was available..

Me mouthing the words: "stop moving sir!"

Lt: "My ankle hurts"

Me: "Ah shit they found us".

The Sir was quite cuddly and warm in the October nights. Alot of laughs after the course was over.

If you are a Marine with tats they seem to single you out as a baby killer. I believe I got the first "grab your rags"

SOTB

11 October 2010, 08:58

Later while hiding from instructors in the first pile of noisy veg that was available..

Me mouthing the words: "stop moving sir!"

Lt: "My ankle hurts"

Me: "Ah shit they found us"....I can't remember how many non-pilots were in my class, I think I went up to the school with at least one other Marine recon type -- but maybe not. Anyway, so during the team evasion portion me and the female LtCdr type are beginning to have some friction, it began when she demanded to be in charge of the map, yet had no clue as to how to use it. I blame all of my rapport skills with Naval officers on Sgt Taulbee. :tongue:

So I think it was our 2nd or 3rd morning into the evasion and she and a number of others had just undergone a fairly rough night -- found AGAIN, and fucked with all night AGAIN. It kinda irked me, because it was difficult to sleep in my hide with all of that yelling and silliness going on. On this morning before our movement, she begins the brief with an admonishment that some of the ground-pounders just aren't working sufficiently as a team with the pilots -- because we weren't getting found and they were. It was our responsibility to ensure that they were as well-hidden as we were. Maybe it was. But I'm not going to build your hide for you -- unless it is for real -- and you simply cannot. I'm also not going to deny taking at least some satisfaction out of your suffering if you can't accept advice and continue to dig your hole and place your fresh dirt right there next to you....

Nimja

11 October 2010, 10:36

Interesting about the Navy pilots. I'll thank the Marine Corps for drilling land nav so hard at TBS. SERE was a breeze as far as land nav went. My only regret was I didn't have the time to teach the young guys/gals (one guy wanted to learn but we were moving fast and I didn't want to get caught while he was learning from his mistakes).

Yeah, if there is a singe tip that I would say will help you through SERE. It's land nav. If you're lost all the time and don't know where to go, half of what you're doing wouldn't make any sense and probably seems hopeless.

Plus you have to know, not only how to get from point A to point B, but how to really know where you are at all times. Rarely can you go in a straight line and it is usually a really bad idea. You have to be able to terrain associate, plus keep a pace count, plus hold an azimuth, (the three legs of the land nav stool) to be able to immediately change direction, move 200 meters and then reassociate where you are. It's even more fun in the dark.

Shin guards would have been nice. Those cactus spines sucked.

The Fat Guy

12 October 2010, 05:20

I can't remember how many non-pilots were in my class, I think I went up to the school with at least one other Marine recon type -- but maybe not. Anyway, so during the team evasion portion me and the female LtCdr type are beginning to have some friction, it began when she demanded to be in charge of the map, yet had no clue as to how to use it. I blame all of my rapport skills with Naval officers on Sgt Taulbee. :tongue:

So I think it was our 2nd or 3rd morning into the evasion and she and a number of others had just undergone a fairly rough night -- found AGAIN, and fucked with all night AGAIN. It kinda irked me, because it was difficult to sleep in my hide with all of that yelling and silliness going on. On this morning before our movement, she begins the brief with an admonishment that some of the ground-pounders just aren't working sufficiently as a team with the pilots -- because we weren't getting found and they were. It was our responsibility to ensure that they were as well-hidden as we were. Maybe it was. But I'm not going to build your hide for you -- unless it is for real -- and you simply cannot. I'm also not going to deny taking at least some satisfaction out of your suffering if you can't accept advice and continue to dig your hole and place your fresh dirt right there next to you....

In SERE Level C, we rotated leadership. I had three young officers going through the Q with no operational experience and two NCO's, one ID'd as a SERE Instructor and the other a PSYOPER on my evasion team. One night we get tasked with a short move that requires us to cross a river. The obvious desire is to cross at the bridge. I tell these cats, "Bridges are secured by fire not by force. We won't see the guys protecting it. Well the three young O's talk one of the NCO's who was in charge to cross at the bridge and voilà, machine gun fire. The bad part was they let us settle in for an hour or so before they rousted us. Bagged, Tagged and left on the road for dead.

There are no free lunches in SERE.

SOTB, Agreed, I hate whiny bitches regardless of their genitalia

Chris

16 October 2010, 16:02

Im jealous; I lived for more than a year in BKK. I wonder how SERE weighs against the Ranger Training I had in '72. Psychiatric casualties were more common than real physical injuries and these were picked men.

Sandbagger

SOTB

16 October 2010, 16:29

I wonder how SERE weighs against the Ranger Training I had in '72. Psychiatric casualties were more common than real physical injuries and these were picked men....Are you referring to Ranger School, or other training? Because when I look at the class photos of Ranger School in '72, I see class sizes of the same sort of my time -- the biggest difference is those 1972 classes had some serious hair -- LOL. Anyway, you mentioned "picked men" and unless attrition rates are far different now than in the early 70s, those classes started with a large number of students. And they look like they graduated decent numbers, as well. I don't see the "picked men" comment matching the numbers.

Soooooooooo, what training are you referring to and what were the purported psych issues?

flhshvlhed

19 October 2010, 15:57

Has a student come through that either taught the instructors a new trick or have they done like Gomer Pyle did and put on 10lbs during the survival course?

I was working LRSLC survival at the time I went. I still learned some things, and was able to leave a few tidbits w/ them as well. It was a great exchange. A great bunch of instructors. I borrowed a uniform from the then wife and it helped w/ my cover story of being an orphan and dental assistant. I had a buddy go through, and had stripped off hit patches, only to have the sewing marks still on there. lol - his story didn't go very well, when they brought out patches to match the ones that used to be on his uniform. :biggrin: He got labeled as a one the "special ones" and a "baby killer".

I lost 15# in 7 days. I had heard that several classes before, a foreign officer had caught a bird w/ the snares. Our team ate dog food out of a coon feeder for several days. It's not too bad w/ pine needle tea. :rolleyes:

Had numerous TF160 pilots/support personnel go through at same time. That was fun to watch! There was also a female truck driver that went through - she was GTG.

Dan Pitzer was still there in '93 when I went through.

Realist

1 November 2010, 11:31

Boots...Boots...Boots...Boots... I have not thought of that in years. I was disappointed with the "survive prac-app" portion of the course although I was a bit older when I attended, in '96, and the instructor (for the survive portion) was kind of new and young. There were good classes with great lectures, but the outdoor portion that I attended was geared toward people that have not spent a great deal of time outdoors. Of course the light comes up in the East, your belly is a water bladder and the blade and fire are important. So no, there was not much time to start teaching or sharing ideas. The only thing I remember is the smell of Artemisia tridentata (Sagebrush). The last phase was priceless, looking back. What a pleasure to be "lectured" by Mr. Hegdhal. As the SRO, I learned a lot but the most important thing was this: hope must be kept in your head and heart. I remembered thinking of people like Rowe starting a 4th and 5th year, whereas I knew beyond doubt that I had a plane ticket back East at 1500 on Friday. Since then, I have met quite a few POW's. One man had left the Corps to fly in guns to Cambodia and was set upon by a patrol while he was on the ground. Spent over a year in a cage alone with a broken leg while he raised a baby Anaconda and rewrote an Algebra text in his mind for new high schoolers. Then he was transferred to the Hilton. Spent another 5+ years there. When the aforementioned young sailor (above) was released, this man's name was given as being among the living. The interviewers had to dig for his info, since he had already been given a burial ceremony and his wife had re-married 5 years earlier. Had 2 kids with her new husband. Your best tool is your brain - that is where the winning takes place.