Better Collective (BCT/OSUT and Unit) PT?

[Snake]

Suggestions?

The assumption being that current Army standard PT, at both the IET and Unit levels, is unsatisfactory.

Me:

Create a Primary MOS for PT Instructors (as the Brits do, with the Army Physical Training Corps). Draw them from MOSQ'd NCOs, send them to a 10 or 12 week course, then get them certified on training programs like Crossfit. Put them at Battalion level in CS/CSS units, Company level in Combat Arms units.

Drop the APFT. Replace with something a lot better at measuring functional strength and endurance. The PAST test, or a time march/O-course/run combo. Pushups and situps tell me nothing of PFC Schmukatelli's ability to keep up on a 12hr foot pursuit in nonpermissive terrain (i.e. what we actually do in Afghanistan).
The mandate to limit the APFT to events which can be done without any equipment, in a 2hr period, is assinine and unrealistic.

More Physical Therapists and Orthopaedic-specific physicals for Combat Arms personnel. We lose a lot of good troops to minor injuries that go undetected/ignored and the window in which they could be corrected is missed.

Battle-focused PT. IOW, train as we fight. More forced marches, less calisthenics. What calisthenics we do should resemble Crossfit workouts more than side-straddle-hops, pushups, mountain climbers, repeat.


My $0.02

[SOTB]

Create a Primary MOS for PT Instructors (as the Brits do, with the Army Physical Training Corps).I wouldn't, dude. IMO, you'll wind up with gym rats who are essentially Special Services guys opcon'd to your unit. You'll hate them, they will hate you, and I would wager you'd have more guys hurt from dicking with these dudes than you would if you went off and did your own thing.Drop the APFT. Replace with something a lot better at measuring functional strength and endurance. The PAST test, or a time march/O-course/run combo.I think this is a very good point. Soldiers and Marines (and Sailors and Airmen, I suppose) should be tested in the types of physical stresses that we demand they are ready to face. IE, all MOS may be eventually required to throw a ruck on and move to the next obj -- no matter if they are grunts or aviation mechanics -- could happen. So I would do a hybrid of testing standards -- I'd check their endurance and strength (which pushups, pullups, long'ish runs do), and their explosive abilities (sprints, dragging a dummy, etc.). But yeah, everyone that is in the Army or Corps should have to throw a ruck on and cover at least 12mi in a given time.More Physical Therapists and Orthopaedic-specific physicals for Combat Arms personnel. We lose a lot of good troops to minor injuries that go undetected/ignored and the window in which they could be corrected is missed.Cool.Battle-focused PT. IOW, train as we fight. More forced marches, less calisthenics. What calisthenics we do should resemble Crossfit workouts more than side-straddle-hops, pushups, mountain climbers, repeat.I love CF. But side-straddle-hops, pushups, mountain climbers -- those are all types of exercises that can and should be executed as CF does in their WODs. If troops are bored and not getting a lot out of their PT sessions, then that is just us needing to ramp up the workload -- without hurting people, of course.

I sympathize with you -- dude, I really do. I also wonder how much good could be had if the Army and Marine Corps ran the chow halls with even the slightest focus on nutrition....

[Snake]

Don't even get me started on Nutrition...

A lot of good PT is undone by SPC Joeshitsky and SGT Buford wolfing down Chicken Strips and Natural Light (you know who you are).

[Snake]

I wouldn't, dude. IMO, you'll wind up with gym rats who are essentially Special Services guys opcon'd to your unit. You'll hate them, they will hate you, and I would wager you'd have more guys hurt from dicking with these dudes than you would if you went off and did your own thing.....

It can be done. I've worked with the Brits, and their PTIs are very professional. It's a matter of standardization and professionalism. Needs a good leadership cell, though (as Larsen provide to the Combatives Program, for instance).

[SOTB]

A lot of good PT is undone by SPC Joeshitsky and SGT Buford wolfing down Chicken Strips and Natural Light (you know who you are).I think I wrote this elsewhere, but a good friend of mine was with me in a chowhall in either Kandahar or Bagram (I can never remember which, but I think it might have been the chowhall at the far end of Disney on Bagram) -- and some Afghans came in.

We both thought the same thing, at the same moment -- that these Afghans looked around and thought -- fuck, we CAN beat these soft MF'ers

It might not be true that they can beat us -- but we seem to go out of our way to give people the idea that we aren't hardasses....

[Snake]

But side-straddle-hops, pushups, mountain climbers -- those are all types of exercises that can and should be executed as CF does in their WODs.

Highlighted the important part of that statement. WOD calisthenics and M/W/F Platoon PT calisthenics are exactly the same movements....done in completely different manners.

[John6719]

Suggestions?

.....

Battle-focused PT. IOW, train as we fight. More forced marches, less calisthenics. What calisthenics we do should resemble Crossfit workouts more than side-straddle-hops, pushups, mountain climbers, repeat.


My $0.02

If you haven't had a chance to look at TC-3-22.20 yet, you may be impressed. It's the new Army Physical Fitness Manual, released Aug 2010. I haven't seen anything official, but have heard and read that the Army is suppose to have a new APFT coming out sometime after 2011...Guess we'll see. Here is one paragraph from the manual:

1-5. This TC provides the training and leader development methodology that forms the foundation for
developing competent and confident Soldiers in the conduct of full spectrum operations. The tasks, conditions,
and standards of PRT activities derive from the mission analysis of the physical demands of unit mission, core
mission essential task list (C-METL) or directed mission essential task list (D-METL), and warrior tasks and
battle drills (WTBDs). The Army PRT System is performance-based, incorporating physically demanding
activities that prepare Soldiers and units to accomplish the physical requirements of WTBDs. As Soldiers’
physical performance levels increase, standards remain constant, but conditions become more demanding. To
ensure the generation of superior combat power, the end state requires leaders to integrate the relative physical
performance capabilities of every Soldier. Soldiers and leaders must execute the planned training, assess
performance, and retrain until they meet Army Physical Fitness Training Program standards as specified in AR
350-1, Training and Leader Development. Conditions should replicate wartime conditions as nearly as possible.

[Massgrunt]

It can be done. I've worked with the Brits, and their PTIs are very professional. It's a matter of standardization and professionalism. Needs a good leadership cell, though (as Larsen provide to the Combatives Program, for instance).I have the same impression as SOTB. They are considered a joke by the majority of Brits I've met, called gym queens, etc. The idea of having someone whose full time job it is to conduct pt seems pretty silly to me and a job just asking to be cut down the line with a "wtf were we thinking?"

The Marine Corps seems to be doing pretty well incorporating Crossfit. I've been on a few Marine camps in the last couple years and Crossfit stuff is all over the place. Check out the Marine Combat Fitness Test:

http://www.usmc.mil/unit/basecamppendleton/Pages/News/2010/PendletonMarinesprepareforannualcombatfitnesstest. aspx

I was thinking about this today, as rigid and tradition bound as the Marine Corps is, it has a really good attitude towards adopting a better and more innovative way to do things.

[guns]

The Army recently published a 69 page report on CrossFit and whether or not it is effective for combat fitness....
http://journal.crossfit.com/2010/09/us-army-crossfit-study-may-2010.tpl

[Silverbullet]

Good PT programs are incorporated at the NCO level and become part of the culture due to SNCO example and supervision.

If you don't have good NCO's who are led and shown the example by good SNCO's then you won't have good PT programs no matter what bureaucratic solution is made up.

[reed11b]

Good PT programs are incorporated at the NCO level and become part of the culture due to SNCO example and supervision.

If you don't have good NCO's who are led and shown the example by good SNCO's then you won't have good PT programs no matter what bureaucratic solution is made up.

I think the issue being debated, is whether or not the APFT tests appropriate fitness for combat tasks. This is important because like it or not, most units are going to train for what is tested to get good NCOERs. I think with minor adjustments, it does.
While I have never jogged anywhere downrange (but I have done some serious sprinting and rucking) the 2 mile run is as good a cardio fitness level indicator as any IMHO. Adding pull-ups and allowing sit-ups with arms across the chest to stop creating neck injuries and you have a pretty good basic fitness indicator.
I have taken a train the trainer PT course to bring back to my unit. The knowledge gained is worthwhile as long as the command environment and the individual attending is willing to use what he has learned.
Same problem with all "train the trainer" concepts of the Army though, a tendency to participate strictly for personnel gain, and often minimal follow up at the unit.
Reed

[Snake]

Good PT programs are incorporated at the NCO level and become part of the culture due to SNCO example and supervision.

If you don't have good NCO's who are led and shown the example by good SNCO's then you won't have good PT programs no matter what bureaucratic solution is made up.

The issue is that (1) the NCOs aren't being taught to run a good PT program and (2) that NCOs in leadership billets might not be the best people to act as the SMEs for unit PT programs (due to the other stuff on their plates).

That's how you end up with 15 minutes of 6-8 types of calisthenics, a 2 mile run and a (poor) stretch period making up your PT program...with Shirts & Skins soccer at the end of the week. PLDC and BNCOC (nor OJT) qualify one as a personal trainer, which leads to hit and miss PT programs.

I'm of the opinion that we require a technically-schooled SME at the Battalion (Company, for Infantry) level. Not just the dude who's been to the Train-The-Trainer (itself a largely failed concept) school for a few weeks, but an NCO (or WO) who understands how to maximize results and minimize injuries, from a technical basis (biomechanics, sports medicine, physical therapy, nutrition).

This is one of those items where a Command-down push is needed. Otherwise, you get NCOs getting bitched out for running their troops over the O-Course in combat loads and boots (useful), instead of jogging them down Foote Ave in New Balances and PTs (useless).

[dirtmover]

The biggest thing againnst PRT is that there isn't enough time in the training schedule to do it properly. We have from 0500-0600 to do warmup then whatever drills that day and cool down and then it is get to chow and training. The circuit training would be damn near impossible to do with 190-240 pvts especially with the reqirment for weight. In OSUT they incorporate the wearing of the IBA and ACUs while doing PT, also they have sprint drills, hill intervals and terrain runs. The military movement drills focus on things that one would do in combat like the crouch run and soldier carry. So far the only silly thing that is in there is the power skip which I don't ever remeber doing while in a fire fight.

PRT is awesome. I did it at drill school and it worked. They are in the process of either completely scrapping the APFT or adding another test like in the Marine Corps.

My company is the control group for not having a Athletic Trainer embedded. Majority of the BCTs in Jackson already have an AT assigned to them. IMO having the AT really does help because the soldier ends up missing less training due to sick call.

They are also recreating a Master fitness program around PRT.

The regular army will never fully adopt PRT until they change the APFT.

[Silverbullet]

The issue is that (1) the NCOs aren't being taught to run a good PT program and (2) that NCOs in leadership billets might not be the best people to act as the SMEs for unit PT programs (due to the other stuff on their plates).

.

As I noted IMO the SNCO's aren't doing their job if this is the case. I find it hard to comprehend how an NCO would have too much on his plate to run effective PT.

I understood what your point was/is.

My experience tells me something different. I've never seen a lack of good ideas for PT. In most cases it was a matter of holding them back instead of needing to get them to research and improve on their knowledge of effective PT programs. That's one of the reasons I laugh when people talk about crossfit as some new idea of how to do PT.

[low country]

Post deleted
The owner of MA was soliciting steroid use information on his website from SOF soldiers.
No links allowed to MA in this forum.

SOCNET FITNESS MOD

[CDRODA396]

IMO opinion, the concept of the MOS for PT Instructor is bad,...bad. Whatever the guy assigned to your unit is into, he/she would try and force down your throat...for example, if he's into CF, then it would be CF this, CF that,...arm the NCO Corps with the knowledge to be successful in BNCOC and ANCOC, task them with a standard then give them the time to succeed.

What you get with specialization is people out of touch with what the people they are training do and the impact on them. Like the geniuses at the Master Fitness School who got the PT standards changed back in '94/95ish when the run times for mid -30's solder's got tougher than the time for 18 yr olds....this change was based on the prevailing belief in the CIVILIAN running world that most runners come into their running prime around age 34.

Well let me tell you, by the time I was 34 I had over 100, Night, Combat Equipment, 800' +/- Mass Tactical Parachute Jumps with the 82nd. Hundreds of days running up and down Ardennes in whatever boots/shoes I could grab in a post drunk stupor because back in the day running shoe technology didnt include air and gel and the such, had humped the finest designed backpack (note the VERY HEAVY SARCASM) on the market, the Large ALICE, for miles and miles and miles in more country's than I remember and slept on hot, rocky, cold, damp, uneven ground and WAS NOT IN MY "RUNNERS PRIME" by the time I hit 34! PERIOD! But I'd bet the guy who got assigned to the Master Fitness School that took my run max away by changing the standard, got assigned there to train for marathons, or triathelons, or whatever and a ruck sack was something he would marvel at when he visited the museum!

I absolutely agree the clerk typist's PT Test should not be the same as the Rifleman's. I think at a minimum the PT Test should be tailored by MOS or at least combat arms, cs, css.

For the Infantryman it should include rifle qualification...something like a forced march with a rucksack (weight based on % of total body weight to standardize for scoring)....end the forced march by literally dropping down at your firing point and firing record fire (that needs help too, not just the 40/40 crap), either after or during the record fire, get up and do a number of 3-5 second sprints, from cover to cover, or back and forth across a street, simulate things you do in combat, (never seen anyone react to fire by dropping down and knocking out pushups!) arrive at a dummy which must be drug, carried or persuaded to move 100 m and time it all, develop a scoring system (no easy feat I know) and implement immediately.

[Gryfen-FL]

AMEN! To the physical ortho guys...and for Gods sake: at least hire some athletic trainers at the bn level.

We've got an AT: 'Mistress Heather' is one part domiatrix, one part saint and two parts fucking genious.

If you miss your 'ounce of prevention': a good AT can save your butt with a can of whoop ass before the pound of cure is necessary.

[Gryfen-FL]

oh, CDRODA 395....

hands down, the best loved PT session in BCT cycles past (from pvts and DS) was the combat march and shoot:
- 1mile down firebreaks with weapon, 40 rounds, FLIC, 1Gal of water and a carrot at the end of the stick.
- platoons within a company were the competitive unit.
- firing orders were grouped by the last 2mile time.
- you literally run to the range, time stops and targets come up when the last man gets in position.
- fire a qualification table. subtract 1 second for each target knocked down.
- average times for the firing orders within a platoon
- lowest average platoon gets to watch 'apocolipse now' or 'red dawn' sunday afternoon.

.....worked GREAT! And then the ammo allocation changed. :mad:

[Guy]

As I noted IMO the SNCO's aren't doing their job if this is the case. I find it hard to comprehend how an NCO would have too much on his plate to run effective PT.

I understood what your point was/is.

My experience tells me something different. I've never seen a lack of good ideas for PT. In most cases it was a matter of holding them back instead of needing to get them to research and improve on their knowledge of effective PT programs. That's one of the reasons I laugh when people talk about crossfit as some new idea of how to do PT.The new troops are "mentally" weaker nowadays, never had too cut grass, rake leaves, trim bushes, chores, manual labor (in the heat & cold), etc.

Stay safe.

[Wes]

Here is my problem with the dummy drag, weapon qual, ________ equipment needed:

It isn't available. There is no way you are going to use a range for SPC Snuffy to fire on because he is going to the board soon and needs a updated PT test. The National Guard and Reservists would be SOL and could maybe do a PT test twice a year max. You think they have IBA's with ESAPIs available? Not so much.

I love the idea, but there is no way to make it work on the Reserve level. Also, trying to run that many people all the time through the ranges on Active Duty posts would be insane.

[Snake]

Wes, that's primarily an administrative issue (gear not available on the day).

However, you are correct that daily PT and the APFT should not be overly dependant on having the Gym or Range available.

Conversely, the "anywhere, anytime" APFT is obviously retarded, as it plays to the lowest common denominator. We seldom administer it in the woods, so we can count on access to some basic facilities (i.e. the pullup bar, as the Marines have proven).

To expand: An example PT formation could be the Spartan Run (credit to LT Stew Smith, USN)....as follows:

Equipment: Running Track (preferred) or known distance of road/trail (fallback), pullup bar.

Performance: Fall in. Accountability. Move to Track.

As individuals
1 mile run
100 pushups
100 situps
10 pullups
1mile run
75 pushups
75 situps
5 pullups
1 mile run
max pushups
max situps
max pullups

Fall in: Dismiss.

Done.


If you want to hold PT in ACUs and gear...options rapidly present themselves.

As to the APFT....replace with the PAST.

[Brian1/75]

PT at the ole Ranger Battalions have been pretty successful. Kit runs, ruck marches, long distance runs, pool time, and gym time.

[GPC]

The new troops are "mentally" weaker nowadays, never had too cut grass, rake leaves, trim bushes, chores, manual labor (in the heat & cold), etc.

Stay safe.

Never got the Beatings either.:eek:
I asked one of the neighbors kids to help me split and stack wood the other day.He shit a twinkie and politely refused.

I even offered to pay.

[Spinner]

Looks like the APFT is heading out the door. About time.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_army_new_fitness_test

[CombatWombat]

That CRT is a smoker. We ran it before my last trip over when one of my sadistic SLs got a prelim copy of it from a friend. I like it. Not sure how the final one turned out. We ran it as a total overall time event so you just had to go like hell through all the events.

[Spinner]

It just makes sense.

More than anything, it's run with the uniform on while wearing and carrying the type of equipment you can expect to in the field.

When the going gets tough, being able to max out pushups, situps and a two mile run aren't going to be the true test of what you have in the tank.

[ricardo]

Does this Major's take on training for combat fitness have any merit for those of you that have been in combat?

http://startingstrength.com/articles/combat_worst_case_whittemore.pdf

[RedrumAnCoke]

That CRT is a smoker. We ran it before my last trip over when one of my sadistic SLs got a prelim copy of it from a friend. I like it. Not sure how the final one turned out. We ran it as a total overall time event so you just had to go like hell through all the events.

I think I did something similar, and I want to say it was in 2006? We did a 3 mile run with body armor, helmet, your usual kit you'd have on a mission, I can't remember if we ran with an M-4 or not. We ran 1.5 miles out and then turned around an came back and immediately climbed the fast rope, then we dragged a 250lb skedco 50 meters I think...I don't remember the exact weight could of been lighter or heavier. After the skedco drag you climbed the flimsy helicopter ladder thing that we had next to our fast ropes, then sprint 100 meters and climb over an 8 ft. wall. The whole thing had to be done in under 30 minutes I believe. Any current Battalion guys know what I'm talking about? That shit was a pretty good mixup of things I thought. After those 3 miles in full kit, the fast rope climb had your ass start to come up outta your mouth. And the only real problem I saw with the test was some really short guys had trouble getting over the wall.

[dirtmover]

Across the army BCTs and regular army units are doing the new APFT to help develop the point scale. Its a 5 event test including a 60yd shuttle run with picking up blocks, the rower which is a PRT exercise max reps in 1 minute and no resting, pushup hands must be under the shoulders and no resting max reps in 1 minute, standing broad jump both feet must leave the ground at the same time, and a 1.5 mile run. All these events are done back to back no resting and one grader must grade all events except the run. We ran through about 20 pvts and it took about 1 hour from start to finish but we only had two graders. I will post how it goes when we run the whole company for a 2 star dog and pony show. If I find anything new or interesting I will let you all know.

[dirtmover]

Today we ran through about 160 pvts with 20 graders. It took about an hour and 45 minutes but thats with privates that took 16 minutes to run 1.5 miles. When my CO talked to us he said that the new PT test is going to happen and the demo that we did was going to be used to create a grading scale. The hardest event to come up with a grading scale will be the standing broad jump because on average the soldier was only able to jump their height. Those that want to sign an 18X contract may want to start looking at the new PRT guide. Those that have been in for a minute might want to take a look at it as well mainly because of the rower because the arms aren't supposed to go past parallel and the feet need to stay together the entire time. Within about the next couple of months I feel that the APRT will become the standard.

[Pharoe]

My opinion is no matter how many times the Army decides to change their fitness standard it's going to take SNCO's to enforce the standard and Junior NCO's to creatively find ways to plan and execute so that their subordinates can exceed the standard.

There has always been a fitness standard but the problem in my opinion was not the actual standard itself but the dedication of the NCO's and the pride that goes in the planing and approach to exceed the fitness standard. There are numerous routes to build all around fitness in units, that piece should be left to the creativity of the NCO's.

Think about it, if you go back 15-20+ years the likely hood of you coming across an unfit, soft, sloppy Soldier was slim to none. The standard was the same then as it was not long ago before this recent change. So its not the standard thats the problem..IMO...awesome thread.

[ktek01]

Think about it, if you go back 15-20+ years the likely hood of you coming across an unfit, soft, sloppy Soldier was slim to none. The standard was the same then as it was not long ago before this recent change. So its not the standard thats the problem..IMO...awesome thread.

Last time I looked at the APFT it had actually changed. The test used to start out hard, and got easier as you got older, then it started out easier and got harder as you got older. I think this was to reflect the change where recruits were showing up so out of shape compared to my time frame, mid 80s.