A question

[dvpj]

Maybe you can help me here, BMF.
My question is centered on education.

When an active duty (enlisted/NCO)tech leaves the military for civilian life (retirement or otherwise)how often does he or she seek a position in the UXO/EOD business, and successfully find and keep one?
Also, what kind of agencies or institutions are looking for military technicians?

I'm interested in knowing if a tech's military education is a benefit in securing a job.
There is no substitute for the hands on experience, but as I transitioned to the civilian world about six years ago I saw that my military background only got me in the door.
I had a tough time competing with my co-workers. They came to the job with verbal and written communication skills that the Navy did allow me to develop to the same degree that they had. My supervisor at a very large Navy contracted diving and underwater services company said he found it just as easy to OJT a college educated person, as it was to bring in a Navy trained person. The Navy person in many cases had a family to support and in turn demanded a higher starting pay scale. Don't get me wrong here, if you want to remain in the 'worker bee' ranks no problem; however, any upward mobility will require skills that go beyond what the military traditionally imparts in its enlisted/NCO ranks.

Now as a full time college student I can see,with hind-sight, the benefit of a well rounded college experience.

Of course, this whole question may be mute if the Navy has begun to allow enlisted men and women to foster and develop the intangible skills of sophisticated communication and critical thinking.

[JY]

Hi dvpj;

If a tech has the IED school under his belt there generally isn't any problem getting into State, County, City Fire or Police Bomb Squads. A degree is a plus but not required, the agency hiring may also send you to Redstone for an IED course or two and Quantico for forensic explosive investigation( a chemistry background helps with this one).

When this way when I left active duty and went too NG, then back to active. Most areas that do not have military EOD units in the locale will welcome EOD techs, and will send them to additional schools as stated above. They also will tolerate NG or reserve duty, free training to them.

Hope this helps with your question BMF,and loadMaster may be able to help also. take care...Jim

[bmf]

Ahhh, good questions in deed. I'll give this my best shot but keep in mind these are just my opinions.
As far as how often do tech's work in the EOD /UXO field after active duty: I would say, "often".
It really depends on the type of person. Range work is exactly that, WORK! Sweeping ranges and living the gypsy life takes it out of a guy. The pay can be good, but you will have to earn it with hard work, family seperation, and often, working in some third world shit-hole. Range work attracts a certain breed, those who don't mind getting dirty and living an adventourous life.
On the flip side there's the Government EOD related fields. These are with Agencies like the ATF, FBI, USSS, and others. These are what I clasify as "suit" jobs. Usually the pay is better, they are more secure and obviously harder to get. I know many EOD tech's in just about every agency. They all seem to have had some "college" along with their EOD background. My advice is this. If you are interested in one of these agencies, call them up. You can get contact numbers for most of them from the Office of Personnel Management job listings. http://www.usajobs.opm.gov/a9.htm
Each has specific requirements they are looking for (along with your EOD background). For instance, the ATF may look for a good chemistry or fire science background, the FBI may look for something with forensics and the Secret Service may look for electronics etc... The only way you'll know is to make contact.
One common denominator among most jobs is good communication and computer skills. I suggest if you don't have them (or they're weak) buff up on them.
I agree with your assesment that the military doesn't actually give you these needed skills but they are getting better. L let me say this thouhg, EOD techs (regardless of service) are a unique breed. They have learned and mastered a extremely valuable skill in any job market....PROBLEM SOLVING! It doesn't matter to me if it's a MK-346 on a MK-81 on a runway (rocket wrench doesn't have clearance to spin and ya' can't dig!) or an essay for my cunt of an english teacher. It's the same thing, just another problem to be solved.
We have all mastered our fear at some time, (even if it was just practical testing in school) taken immense verbal abuse from our "buddies", and traveled the world over.
You can't OJT these skills. 99.9% of EOD techs are intelligent people. Some may be total dorks but they are intelligent.
Look at your average college student. (I'm working towards my Criminal Justice) He may be bright, communicate well, and have some of daddy's money to spend, but has he ever really felt pressure? I mean besides the pressure to get a prom date, has he? Has he ever awoke in the Kuwaiti desert to the chemical alarm going off and had to decide if it was a false alarm (again) or to run and get his mask. Has he ever walked the long walk up to a suspect IED wondering just what the hell kind of job he volunteered for? Has he ever had to learn fifty grenandes in one night-or go to the fleet and chip paint? (I could go on for hours)
These are our strong points. They are not taught in a class or even easily explained.
I suggest to all enlisted EOD guys to develop the skills they missed in college (while busy serving their country.)You have to communicate well to expalin just how beneficial your skills our to their company. It's not as hard as you think to catch up.
On a final note, I'll share with you an idea I have been throwing around for a while. I was thinking of starting a web-site/data-base for EOD techs to post their resumes. Kind of like a job placement agency for EOD techs. Anytime a UXO company needed extra men, they could search the site for desired qualities. I want to try and let people know just how valuable some of the skills we've learned are to any company. I'm sure many companies may hire an Ex SEAL just on the belief that he MUST be a superman. I call it "star power". It's the same thing that makes you go see a Tom Hanks movie regardless of how stupid the pre-views are. I want the Government agencies to seek out EOD tech's because they have heard of what kind of quality problem solving comes with the name. I firmly believe if these people really knew what our job consists of, they would actively pursue hiring techs. But, as of yet, it's still just an idea....
If I (or someone)never gets around to it, We're stuck with this marketing slogan:
Hire an EOD tech! Because you're office parties will never be the same again!

[dvpj]

You know; in my fifteen + years of military and civilian service the brightest folks I labored with were the Navy techs. I worked side by side with frogs, f/r marines, mud divers, and "devgroupers", I have to say that the ops with techs were the most memorable. I suppose that the "community" has a lot to do with that.

Thanks heaps for the enthusiastic replys!!!

I can not say loud enough to anyone listening/reading, take advantage of the educational services on base. When you're on shore duty get some real academics under your cover. I know it sounds soapboxish', but damn it employers really look for that stuff. Sure the fun stuff works, but that legitimate(sp) diploma is a force-multiplier ...bigtime! What ever you do, do not get taken by the cheap low budget diploma factory (you get what you pay for), people in the know, can tell the difference!
Voice of experience here.

Many thanks again!

Anyone in the biz, please chime in...

[dvpj]

Just to add....
My only regret after leaving the club is not having taken any offbase courses. You know after pulling three sea tours, and finally getting a shore tour, I was busy being a short-sighted family man. I certainly could have not played softball one or two nights a week and taken a class or two.

The VA is helping me out with a new lease on life.
I'm running after a Biology and Chemistry degree(full time with one semester left, and grad school on the horizon) in hopes of working in the field of insect borne disease, specifically hard- shelled ticks and Lyme Disease.

I'm playing catch up now, my contemporaries are running at high speed because they have this school/college thing down.
I'm re-learning how to study and take calculus II and organic chem. synthesis exams. I can write with the best of them, but putting together a quantitave- instremental chem. paper is killing me! These kids can knock those things out like special request chits.
If I wasn't; having to work, be a husband, be a father to two kids, 38 years old, losing my hearing, and trying to keep the pounds off with only one good leg..... Do you get it?
I wouldn't miss this for the world, no way. But, if I had anything to do over again it would be to have taken a class or two at San Diego City College or Pomona, or somewhere.

I'm not bitchin', just raising a flag to my buds, and trying to lose this caffine buz.

With that said, my heart sure misses the excitment!


[This message has been edited by dvpj (edited 01-23-2000).]

[This message has been edited by dvpj (edited 01-23-2000).]

[bmf]

It's a shame you didn't stay in. What I'd give to get that knowlege across to some of my younger guys. Your determination is truly HOO-YAH, and I wish you success!

[dvpj]

Well to be honest I often ask why I'm doing this.
Usually around finals week or during a "thesis defense" (getting my ass grilled about my research project) Like a master board, but in front of about 50-70 of your classmates,and the grilling by 5-8 PhDs (and happens at the request of the department head to evaulate your progress).

In the big picture I all ways come back to the question of fate. Everything happens for a reason, and someday that reason will be clear to us. As we are now we just motor on and absorb the blows; we must learn and adapt, or quit and die. Natural selection works!
I decided to absorb the blows, and move on.

BMF, I wrote an essay(about two pages) about education, it was published in a mid-atlantic undergrad. writing journal, it is pretty relevant to both military and college education...want to read it?

Thanks Tom!! This forum is a sort of therapy for me.

[pn]

Dvpj, as one of those kids that can "bang out lab reports like special request chits" (that one had me rolling), let me just say that I would take the experience and wisdom of a chief or sergeant over most all of the fancy classes I've had over the last four years. Smart folks are a dime a dozen in these parts, and I'm getting mighty tired of 'em!

-pn

[This message has been edited by pn (edited 01-27-2000).]

[dvpj]

I hear ya', and I agree with you. But, imagine the "marketability" of a CPO with a durable degree. The working no-nonsense of an experienced manager, technician, and craftsman; combined with a rigid academic standard.
I spent a long time rolling my eyes at the over-educated micromanagers we all had to endure, hell I spent three years punching holes on a submarine!
I think you're missing my point.

[bmf]

DVPJ, I'd love to read your article. I'm feeling a bit of your pain as I crammed for my mid-terms tonight (after a LONG workday). This shit definately sucks, but I know where I want to be, and I'm the only one who can get me there. Think of college as a keg of beer. Keep chugging at it and sooner or later you'll get head.
Stay gold pony boy...

[pn]

eh? What point? I'm just saying that smarts aren't everything...

I just got back from Leadership&Ethics class, and I can not believe some of things these future officers are saying.

-pn

[bmf]

You know, I see a lot of young kids come through the EOD scool down here. You would not believe how many of them have a degree but are happy to stay enlisted. The military is really changing. I believe the whole Enlisted-Officer thing is becoming outdated. I understand that you will always need a rank structure but to give an O-2 better treatment than a Master Chief is ridiculous. They talk about ethics, but answer me this. Does an O-3's family deserve to live in a better house than an E-8's?
The intellectual gap between Officer and Enlisted has shrank tremendously. I really believe a college education does not make you a leader. I don't think "leadership seminar's" offer much help either.
On a last note, the very best leader I have ever worked for was an enlisted Chief. He led by example.
Ethics apply to more than just getting frequent flyer miles on your Government baught ticket.

[Fred]

Good post on the pay disparity. I've always thought the e/o pay scales should overlap. E-6 approx the same as JO's E-7 similar to 0-3, E-9 to 0-4.

[pn]

At Intel(the chipmaker), they have two advancement ladders: engineer and manager. The managers obviously have authority to direct the actions of the engineers, who do all the work, but the pay at every level is the same. I think the Engineer paygrades stop at a lower level and the Manager paygrades begin at a higher one, but all the pays are the same in the middle. This ends up being what you suggest, SSD..

Question: Does any mustang here think he could handle the work of a CPO AND an LT at the same time, without sacrificing readiness?

-pn

[This message has been edited by pn (edited 01-28-2000).]

[bmf]

Definately depends on how many guys you are responsible for. An EOD team is usually about 6 guys and I would think The OIC and LCPO billet could be easily filled by any good Mustang. On the other hand, shipboard Division Officers can have 40-50 people under them. I think that would be pushing it a bit.
I like Fred's pay scale. I just wish we could make it happen.

[jw]

BMF,
Just got back in town after a little cold weather camping trip with the Army. Average temp was 0 to -10. Saw your post about the long days at the school house. They making you stay til after lunch? http://www.specialoperations.com/ubboard/smile.gif Seriously though, you are right about the number of guys comming into the program with a degree. I can envision a day in the near future where if you don't have one, good luck making Chief. By the way, how's BC treating you. I'd also like to hear about how the transition is working out.

JY,
Thanks for the info about winter training. Didn't have time to get the Wiggy's boots. Cold and numb feet! Did have Muck-a-lucks though!!!
In response to a post of yours up above,you mentioned attending the IED school. Are you talking about the civilian course the Army teaches to police bomb techs? As I understand it military can attend as a guest, but don't graduate. Which means you can't put it on a resume, and it doesn't show up on your military record. I heard from a Marine tech at Quantico that because of this, the Corps is not allowing civs into their breacher course. Or are you talking AA&D's. Good course but definately a parishable skill