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-   -   Thai soccer coach and 12 kids trapped in cave 1.6 mi. deep (http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=132702)

ramzmedic 4 July 2018 01:04

Thai soccer coach and 12 kids trapped in cave 1.6 mi. deep
 
This coach took 12 kids 1.6 Mi deep into this cave. I can't for the life of me pretend to know why he would do something so stupid.

A plan being considered now is to have Thai SEALs go in and teach each kid how to scuba dive to get them out.

Heard a report from Thailand due to the monsoon season they may not be able to get these kids out until September or October. I cannot imagine what the parents are going through!

http://www.businessinsider.com/thail...tranded-2018-7

256 4 July 2018 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramzmedic (Post 1058734627)
This coach took 12 kids 1.6 Mi deep into this cave. I can't for the life of me pretend to know why he would do something so stupid.

A plan being considered now is to have Thai SEALs go in and teach each kid how to scuba dive to get them out.

Heard a report from Thailand due to the monsoon season they may not be able to get these kids out until September or October. I cannot imagine what the parents are going through!

http://www.businessinsider.com/thail...tranded-2018-7

I'm going to assume it started off as an, "hey, let's check out this cave." Then it slowly and painfully turned into, "shit, I got us lost, the exit must be just around the next corner..." That coach probably feels the worst out of all of them. Doesn't excuse his decision making, but he was able to keep them all together and alive to be found. Not an easy task when talking about corraling 12 teen(ish) aged kids in a pitch-black, waterlogged cave.

ramzmedic 4 July 2018 02:11

There is talk now of him facing charges when they finally get him out of the cave. Those kids are going to need him if they're really going to be in there for months. I just can't imagine these kids having to stay there for months at a time.

Colonel Flagg 4 July 2018 04:23

I wonder if the coach will get any consideration for ‘time served” while in the cave until recovery?

I’m genuinely serious and not taking the piss.

Polypro 4 July 2018 07:35

Two civilian Brit Cave Divers made it to them - brought meds and protein drinks. They may have to swim each one out. Hell of a technical dive.

Mingo Kane 4 July 2018 09:24

That's a lot of weight to bear for whomever makes the ultimate decision...young kids, tanked up, doing their first dive in a flooded cave.

Medic4070 4 July 2018 10:12

Apparently, the 2 cave divers were able to string a cave line down to the group. But, they've been pumping water out of the cave since this started and have dropped the water level a whole 1 cm. And, they're expecting rain in the near future.

I thought about posting this in the dive forum (but went to sleep instead). For our dive instructors and cave divers, what are your thoughts about trying to get a teenager marginally proficient enough to make it out of the cave? Would it be easier with an AGA vs a normal bite reg?

Not a fun task for anyone involved. Prayers out to this crew that they can get those kids out safely.

Janitor 4 July 2018 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medic4070 (Post 1058734698)
I thought about posting this in the dive forum (but went to sleep instead). For our dive instructors and cave divers, what are your thoughts about trying to get a teenager marginally proficient enough to make it out of the cave? Would it be easier with an AGA vs a normal bite reg?

Diving in a cave is no more difficult than diving in a swimming pool. Breathe in, breath out, don't hold your breath, and swim. It's the environment that creates the challenges, and cave and technical training prepare you to deal with those challenges when it's dark, your primary regulator fails, your teammate has disappeared, and have lost your cave line. Pretty much when all the shit hits the fan simultaneously. I'm sure MDavid can regale you with tales of the crap scenarios they threw at him in the Cave 3 course. I've only gone through technical and wreck penetration, and it was stuff like "swap your gear while buddy breathing without a mask and dealing with a uncontrollable free flow on your primary while a fighting off a giant squid with your pencil. Don't forget about the shark that's biting your leg, either."

Very little information has been provided about the cave that would allow evaluation of the plan. The only two known factors are (a) zero visibility in some sections, (b) the presence of narrow choke points, (c) the distance to the group, and (d) that the cave is only partially flooded (which is a pretty important fact).

The good news is that the SEALs ran a cave line down to them, which means that subsequent ingresses and egresses will go faster. If they are going to swim the kids out, my next step would be to run a much larger line down the cave--like gym class rope size. I'd also be dropping stage bottles for each kid every couple hundred meters early in the op.

As for training, I have taught a number of teenagers to dive. Most of them have no problem with it. You don't need to give them the full roll. In a situation like this, you'd need to give them the basics such as regulator clearing, mask clearing, equalization, and regulator retrieval, and keep them from panicking and bouncing all over the cave. Panic is the big deal here, although after sitting in a dark cave for a couple of days they probably will have gotten over the claustrophobia of it all. It's a foregone conclusion that they're going to silt out the cave (which is probably already silted out anyway), which is half the reason I'd run a bigass line down the cave--the kids can pull themselves hand-over-hand with the rope even if it's pitch black. The second half is that the line is not as likely to get cut, and it's a big, physical, "security blanket" connection to the surface. In open water, I've seen people get freaked out, but once they latch onto the anchor line, they chill out. I ASSume that the SEALs will have a tender for each kid to guide them out and assist with bottle swaps, so a high level of training isn't needed. Do it slow and orderly, and they'll get through it.

And since you asked about FFM vs. standard regulators, I'd go with standard regs. FFM has a steeper learning curve, and they'll be swapping bottles on a 1.6 mile swim out. Whole lot easier to remove and replace a standard reg on the bottle swap.

There may be a decompression issue here, but I can't evaluate that without knowing what the water level in the cave is. The story said "partially flooded," so I ASSume that certain areas are flooded, and not that there's a stack of water 1.6 miles deep on top of them.

Medic4070 4 July 2018 16:20

Good info. Thanks for the insight. I just found This Article that gives a pretty good layout of the situation and their current options.

It looks like they may be planning to have the boys dive out on FFM after all, but have their rescue diver handle all of the air and stage bottles. I guess they must have some type of block to facilitate that. Sounds doable, but still not fun.

And, Azatty was dead on- they’re stringing an 8mm rope as a guideline too.

19MIKE 4 July 2018 17:29

Is drilling a hole straight down not an option? Those Chilean miners were 2300 feet down and they got em out....realize that getting drilling equipment there might be difficult ....

hawkdrver 4 July 2018 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by 19MIKE (Post 1058734763)
Is drilling a hole straight down not an option? Those Chilean miners were 2300 feet down and they got em out....realize that getting drilling equipment there might be difficult ....

I think they're afraid it's too unstable to drill without causing a cave in.

Sucks to be those kids but at least it doesn't look like they're in immediate danger.

The SCUBA option reminds me of this one:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...deal-time.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pViEyZl4mas


Talk about shit your pants time, on both sides.

usmc_3m 4 July 2018 17:55

Sending prayers to those trapped, their families and the rescue teams working to get them out.

Frog 4 July 2018 17:58

US SOF is assisting as well as Thai NSW.

foxcolt13 4 July 2018 18:00

I read about this soon after happpened. I just thank God that they are alive. I was worried that they drowned.

Chimo 4 July 2018 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azatty (Post 1058734714)
The good news is that the SEALs ran a cave line down to them, which means that subsequent ingresses and egresses will go faster.

I see another SEAL movie in the making.

ricardo 4 July 2018 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by hawkdrver (Post 1058734768)

The SCUBA option reminds me of this one:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...deal-time.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pViEyZl4mas


Talk about shit your pants time, on both sides.

Quote:

Once saved from sunken boat, he was put into a decompression chamber for 60 hours before he could safely return to the surface.
As an aside, is 60 hours in a decompression chamber the maximum time that someone has decompressed?

Janitor 5 July 2018 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricardo (Post 1058734839)
As an aside, is 60 hours in a decompression chamber the maximum time that someone has decompressed?

Not by a long shot. "Saturation diving" can cause a diver to rack up a substantial deco obligation. This involves breathing gas at pressure until tissues are saturated with the inert gas (i.e can't absorb more gas) in the breathing mixture. It takes roughly 24 hours to fully saturate for any depth (assuming the slowest tissue saturates in about 4 hours at a given pressure, which probably isn't quite true for some tissues). Then the divers work for several days or weeks with surface support. Commercial divers do it in some cases because it's more efficient than repeatedly surfacing and decompressing. The decompression rule of thumb for saturation diving is one day in the pot per 100 feet sea water plus one day, with dive + deco time no greater than 28 days. So a 700 foot saturation dive would incur an 8 days decompression obligation.

And before you ask why it takes so little time to saturate but a longer time to off gas, it's because when saturating you're not worried about bubbles forming, but when desaturating you're trying to manage bubbles. It's like shaking a soda for 5 seconds to get it ready to blow, then spending 30 seconds slowly releasing the gas so it doesn't fizz. Same basic principle (sort of).

In theory, if the the water in the cave does not exceed a pressure of 1.5 ATA (roughly 15 feet), they can spend days in that pressure without having to decompress, iirc, but I'd have to check a table to be sure.

Medic4070 5 July 2018 11:04

Looking at the different cave diagrams, it looks like their actual depth under water isn't that great. They're far under ground, but that should be air pressure, not water pressure. I think their actual "depth" for their dives would be 10m or less, and their longest sustained dive would be about 400m before surfacing on a high point and trudging to the next sump or flooded area. I'm only a DMT, not a doc or expert, but I'd think their saturation risk and deco risk would be pretty small.

KidA 5 July 2018 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramzmedic (Post 1058734627)
This coach took 12 kids 1.6 Mi deep into this cave. I can't for the life of me pretend to know why he would do something so stupid.

Why not? Looks like it's a fairly popular attraction.

Granted timing doesn't look right, which probably could have/should have been mitigated, but walking a mile deep in an established cave system isn't stupid.

Janitor 5 July 2018 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medic4070 (Post 1058734912)
Looking at the different cave diagrams, it looks like their actual depth under water isn't that great. They're far under ground, but that should be air pressure, not water pressure. I think their actual "depth" for their dives would be 10m or less, and their longest sustained dive would be about 400m before surfacing on a high point and trudging to the next sump or flooded area. I'm only a DMT, not a doc or expert, but I'd think their saturation risk and deco risk would be pretty small.

Depends on the cave. Water filling a fixed space compresses the air in proportion to the volume occupied by the water. So say you have a 60-foot high chamber at 1 ATA that gets filled with 30 feet of water. ASSuming there is nowhere for the air to escape, air pressure in the space will now be roughly 2 ATA. Cut the volume of the space occupied by the air in half, and you double the pressure, so after a day in the cave at 2 ATA, they could have a deco obligation simply because they were breathing compressed air at more than 1 ATA. But given the diagram in the article, it's not likely.


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