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Old 12 July 2016, 00:37
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Company / Battalion / Group Warrant Officers

I've been retired for a good many years now and I just found out the SF TO&E has changed. The first Warrant Officers came to the A detachments as "Detachment Technician", replacing the First Lieutenant's billet as XO.

I've now been told there is a Company Warrant on B-team, Battalion Warrant on C-team and Group Warrant at Group headquarters. I was not aware of this change.

When did this change occur and what exactly is their function?
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Old 12 July 2016, 06:50
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Originally Posted by pan51shovel View Post
I've been retired for a good many years now and I just found out the SF TO&E has changed. The first Warrant Officers came to the A detachments as "Detachment Technician", replacing the First Lieutenant's billet as XO.

I've now been told there is a Company Warrant on B-team, Battalion Warrant on C-team and Group Warrant at Group headquarters. I was not aware of this change.

When did this change occur and what exactly is their function?
Drink massive amounts of coffee, bitch, plan things, do some intel, and talk about, "Well, back when I was on an ODA, back when it was hard, this is the way we did it......"
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Old 12 July 2016, 07:37
AKAPete AKAPete is offline
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Originally Posted by pan51shovel View Post
....When did this change occur and what exactly is their function?
If you don't see them are they really there? Kinda' like "if a tree falls in the forest......"

Warrants have been at Battalion level since at least 1986 +/- when I talked with one about training.
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Old 12 July 2016, 09:57
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Originally Posted by pan51shovel View Post
...what exactly is their function?
Ah, one of the great enigmas of the Modern Special Forces Regiment...if you solve that puzzle, please let everyone know...in particular, the warrant officers themselves, as they are desperately in need of a purpose.

The one thing that I have never said in the past 20 years of SF service? "If I only had a Warrant Officer right now,"
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Old 12 July 2016, 10:10
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I heard once they're real good at power point presentations

Met a few good ones - and a shitload of useless ones
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Old 12 July 2016, 12:46
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Well...

If you have warrant worth a shit (as in quiet influencer) you get....

Better planning that leads to better missions. A 180 needs to be a master of UWOD, PEMSII-ASCOPE, MDMP, F3EAD, and CONOP development. They need to synchronize the direct leadership level to the strategic level. They need to influence commanders at all levels stay on the same sheet of music without fucking the ODA.

Less Z's and A's getting fucked, just trust me on that. If the 180 has a set of nuts, he'll influence the command in a way the Z and A just cant. Then on top of that if you have a rogue A or Z the 180 is the guy who better fucking fix it. A vs. Z fights on a team are never good. The 180 is the tie breaker. Or the guy who can go to the CDR and actually say you need to find a new home for this Jackass A. "Sir, the A needs new perspectives on team dynamics that are more inline with his skill set and aptitude"

Then X shop shit

If you have a good 180 (who's not lazy and does the PDSS) your JCET/TSCP's will be stellar.

Oh Yea and I will blow your fucking mind with PPTX.
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Old 12 July 2016, 13:07
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My 180 was fucking outstanding! He'd kick my ass for putting his name here but... he only had 9 fingers, so he couldn't give a proper 10 minute jump command; once used his dick instead. Had "L-O-V-E and H-A-T-E" tattooed across his knuckles. Either he did them himself or he got them in prison; I didn't have the balls to ask. When he got yanked from the team and sent to Bn (2/3) they finally had an individual who could speak sensibly from both sides of the CoC and could recommend intelligent decisions for O's and NCO's alike. And if you were fucked up he would tell you in such a manner that you looked forward to the next interaction. He was fantastic.
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Old 12 July 2016, 14:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gavin View Post
Ah, one of the great enigmas of the Modern Special Forces Regiment...if you solve that puzzle, please let everyone know...in particular, the warrant officers themselves, as they are desperately in need of a purpose.

The one thing that I have never said in the past 20 years of SF service? "If I only had a Warrant Officer right now,"
That tickled my soul!
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Old 12 July 2016, 15:00
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Way back when SF Branch was still a sparkle in someone's eye (early 1980's), it occurred to SF planners that, based upon the proposed new force structure, you were going to have a whole lot of really competent E-7s with no recourse for future E8 assignment outside of the new Regiment (with its own MOS codes). Big Army would fill those jobs with their own MOS folks. No more mandatory conventional PSG/1SG development time and most of our then existing TDA slots pulled back in order to flesh out new Groups. But still (roughly) the same ratio of limited SF E-8 positions down at the operational level.

They wanted a way to retain more of those experienced senior NCOs in SF operational assignments in order to recoup on all those years of experience. Instead of losing a guy who could have been a Team Sergeant. Withering on the vine as a permanent E7 or lost to some other place in the Army... if and when he terminated status (something that used to happen) and left the force for a permanent job in Legland. Where he might make E8 in his original conventional MOS.

As originally envisioned, the SF Warrant Officer Program would allow two E-8 equivalents (in terms of seniority & experience) to reside on each ODA. Which sounded like a win-win for everyone involved.

So they gave up the formative LT/XO slots (at a different cost to the force) and added the Warrant positions. Made/still makes for an interesting three-way leadership dynamic. When it works, it works incredibly well. When it doesn't, it looks like the Medici Family conducting court intrigue with daggers & poison. Like a twisted version of the film Highlander: "There can be only Three!"

Once Warrant billets were approved, you had three career pathways for hard charger E7s: Commissioning, E8/E9 Competitive Promotion, and the new WO track.

Naturally, they didn't immediately adjust pay/retirement benefits to make it worthwhile for many senior E7s. They'd have to take a cut in pay in order to go WO. So the program was opened to attract (and accept) much lesser SF experienced SSGs. Exactly what was not needed.

As a Team Sergeant, Company SGM, Bn Ops NCO, and S3 SGM, I found the vast majority of SF Warrants to be invaluable fire & forget weapons. Give 'em a target and they knew exactly what to do next. Plus, with the occasional O3 shortage, Warrants sometimes got rated command of ODAs. I assume they still do.

I think that, the occasional cone head aside, SF Warrant Officers have been a boon to the force.

The downside of adding Warrants was our losing a critical ability to better mold entry level SF Lieutenants into future SF commanders. Today, the Captains that come from Big Army are in many ways the cream of the conventional crop. But they get so little time on an ODA. Time that used to be balanced by having previously served as an ODA XO. I think that additional team time made for a more experienced and well rounded SF officer.

I still don't know what an SF CW5 does...

Quote:
The one thing that I have never said in the past 20 years of SF service? "If I only had a Warrant Officer right now,"
I laughed so hard... I ruptured my Hootimus.
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Last edited by Astronomy; 12 July 2016 at 15:20.
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Old 12 July 2016, 15:04
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Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post
...I still don't know what an SF CW5 does...
I you see one of those it's like seeing a unicorn in a flowery meadow eating Lucky Charms with the leprechaun
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Old 12 July 2016, 19:22
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Originally Posted by Fox33C1 View Post
Well...

If you have warrant worth a shit (as in quiet influencer) you get....

Better planning that leads to better missions. A 180 needs to be a master of UWOD, PEMSII-ASCOPE, MDMP, F3EAD, and CONOP development. They need to synchronize the direct leadership level to the strategic level. They need to influence commanders at all levels stay on the same sheet of music without fucking the ODA.

Less Z's and A's getting fucked, just trust me on that. If the 180 has a set of nuts, he'll influence the command in a way the Z and A just cant. Then on top of that if you have a rogue A or Z the 180 is the guy who better fucking fix it. A vs. Z fights on a team are never good. The 180 is the tie breaker. Or the guy who can go to the CDR and actually say you need to find a new home for this Jackass A. "Sir, the A needs new perspectives on team dynamics that are more inline with his skill set and aptitude"

Then X shop shit

If you have a good 180 (who's not lazy and does the PDSS) your JCET/TSCP's will be stellar.

Oh Yea and I will blow your fucking mind with PPTX.
This.

That definitely was my role on the team. Be the adult who tells the team sergeant and CDR to chill the fuck out and stop butting heads. Whisper in the ear of the company commander to get him to adjust policy to make it easier for teams to get out the wire. Work closely with the B-Team Ops Sergeant to come up with a blanket CONOP for the entire company to facilitate the same.

As a Warrant Officer, you should be the consigliere on all levels. Like Robert Duval in Godfather. But you can basically carve out your own role to cover down on whatever needs to be done, like coordinating interagency cooperation in the combat zone, standing up a company intelligence cell to fuse intel from all the teams and train them, ect.

Unfortunately, my National Guard unit has decided to put me as the senior Warrant in the company slot...which is really held by a full time junior AGR Warrant who does the actual job 28 days out of the month and then goes to a team on the weekends. So basically I just drink Monsters in lieu of coffee and do nothing on drill weekends. Yay.
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Old 13 July 2016, 03:27
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The one thing that I have never said in the past 20 years of SF service? "If I only had a Warrant Officer right now,"
That sword cuts both ways. Probably never had a Warrant Officer say "If only I had (insert your name) right now" either.
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Old 13 July 2016, 08:19
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That sword cuts both ways. Probably never had a Warrant Officer say "If only I had (insert your name) right now" either.
Certainly true, as I"ve no skill at Powerpoint or making coffee.

Lighten up, Francis.
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Old 13 July 2016, 08:50
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There is another dynamic in the 180A program that occurred about 3-4 years after it produced the likes of Dave Holt and Dwight Ingram. The push to fill the slots created a higher demand than there was a supply. This lead to E6's getting an ass load of waivers to participate in the program. Sadly, all we did was commission junior NCO's with a tendency to be lazy, inexperienced that did not want to deal with an older Tm Sgt.

Being on a scuba team(s), I never had such a warrant, but they existed and provided little value.
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Old 13 July 2016, 09:41
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That sword cuts both ways. Probably never had a Warrant Officer say "If only I had (insert your name) right now" either.
When I said I had met/worked with a few good ones sinjefe you were one of the ones I had in mind
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Old 13 July 2016, 09:51
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Originally Posted by Fox33C1 View Post

Better planning that leads to better missions. A 180 needs to be a master of UWOD, PEMSII-ASCOPE, MDMP, F3EAD, and CONOP development. They need to synchronize the direct leadership level to the strategic level. They need to influence commanders at all levels stay on the same sheet of music without fucking the ODA.

...

Then X shop shit
...
This is not snark: I would love to see any of that in action. Based on a guy I know, planning is generally done in a vacuum and synchronization is essentially, "This is what we are doing. If you have identified any areas where our mission lashes up or intersects with other country team, TSOC or National initiatives, kindly keep it to yourself."
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Old 13 July 2016, 10:05
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This is not snark: I would love to see any of that in action. Based on a guy I know, planning is generally done in a vacuum and synchronization is essentially, "This is what we are doing. If you have identified any areas where our mission lashes up or intersects with other country team, TSOC or National initiatives, kindly keep it to yourself."
No snark here, either: If there is no task and purpose generated at the policy level, and without a defined end state, unity of mission/shared vision cannot develop. Mission similarity between commands is seen as coincidental at best, but more often perceived as threat or competition for resources.
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Last edited by gavin; 13 July 2016 at 10:13.
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Old 13 July 2016, 10:18
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No snark here, either: If there is no task and purpose generated at the policy level, and without a defined end state, unity of mission/shared vision cannot develop. Mission similarity between commands is coincidental at best, but more often perceived as threat or competition for resources.
Solid point.

I'd argue that 99.999% of the policy generators do not understand the policies they produce are supposed support subjective decision making by subordinate elements. As such, a declarative statement referencing kind of a desired end state is necessary, but almost universally absent.
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Old 13 July 2016, 10:25
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Use to be the requirement to put in for 180A was three years on a ODA. Is that still the case?
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Old 13 July 2016, 10:34
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Use to be the requirement to put in for 180A was three years on a ODA. Is that still the case?
There are waivers for everything in life, of course, but the current pre-reqs:

Minimum prerequisites:

Must hold a CMF 18 MOS.
Must be a SSG (E-6) or above.
Must have a minimum of 3 years documented (NCOER) experience assigned to a Special Forces Operational Detachment-Alpha (SFOD-A).
Must have a current DA Form 330 (within 1 year) with at least a 1/1 language proficiency.
Must meet the medical fitness standards for SF duty and commissioning within 24 months of application submission. A completed USAREC Form 1932 (Physical Cover) must be included.
Must be Achilles Dagger (AD) qualified or Level III qualified. If AD qualification is older than 2 years, the SM must have employed Level II tasks or received refresher training in the last 2 years and be verified by the Group Commander in his LOR.
Must have at least the minimum Letters of Recommendation (LORs) from the following:
SF Group Commander
SF CCWO
SF Battalion Commander
SF Company Commander


That is from the US Army Warrant Officer Recruiting Website.

For all readers other than BTDTs: DO NOT POST ASKING FOR CLARIFICATION ON ANY OF THOSE PREREQS.
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