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  #61  
Old 20 February 2005, 17:44
BadMuther BadMuther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polypro
How'd I miss this? Crossfit will smoke your bags (Or I should say the movements/time hack will...a lot of others do this stuff too: Furey, Enamait, Peterson. Crossfit just came up with a name and a package, but it's free if you dig around the site). Try it. Try Tabata Squats: As many as you can do in 20 sec's...rest 10 sec's, repeat... 8 sets. Start with no weight :) Guy's, we fought and won wars with the old stuff...doesn't mean it was good, just adequate. Hell, they want to go back to a WWII style PT test because nobody does pushups in combat...well, prone under a truck, but that's just one. Unless you REALLY study modern exercise physiology and supplementation, you have no idea how far we've come. More fit, less injuries. Some stuff we did was plain stupid.

P
I'm glad the Hooah's are training smarter and not harder. There was an article in the Tacome News Tribune awhile back about the new way that Batt was training.

I've always said how many pushups and situps do you do on the objective????

I'll have to dig up that article and post it.
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  #62  
Old 20 February 2005, 17:50
Debaser Debaser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadMuther
Nope, it's you who are missing my point.

So you are a massage therapist, yet to get National Cert, without a degree. I can see how that makes you a SME. So that puts my buddy's wife about 4 steps above you. She's nationally cert'd, has a degree, and her husband was in the Army, so I think that beats out your cousin's sister's friend's dog's owner once knew somebody in the Marines.
I'm certified, I just haven't taken the National Board test yet. That's the only reason I'm not nationally certified and it honestly makes almost no difference. She's four steps above me? This isn't a contest, but is she A.R.T. certified? Has she taken any medical massage courses with Ralph Stephens? Anyone can be a massage therapist, it's the ones that take the reputable courses that know a thing or two. There's a reason that A.R.T. works hand-in-hand with the Ironman Triathalon and the Olympics. There's a reason Ralph is one of the most respected practitioners in the nation.

And the point that you seem to continue to ignore is that what you do doesn't matter. Do you think your body has a different functional design than those that aren't in the Military?
  #63  
Old 20 February 2005, 22:51
BadMuther BadMuther is offline
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You still don't get it. "4 steps above" was sarcasm. But since you asked, she has a degree in addition to her other training-something you don't.

Yeah, I understand that the functions of the human body are the same. My point is that unless you have been in the military, or you've spent a lifetime studying the effects of exercise on the human body-which you haven't-(More then being a massage therapist and going to college.) you really aren't in a position to comment on what works or doesn't work for a soldier.

It's like a civilian backpacker comparing what he does to what a 11b carries.

I'm pretty much down with you-My words are wasted on you, as pretty much all info is on knowitall college kids.

Please, please, please keep that attitude with you if and when you ever enter the service.

Have fun at socnet.
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Last edited by BadMuther; 20 February 2005 at 22:56.
  #64  
Old 21 February 2005, 01:30
Debaser Debaser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadMuther
You still don't get it. "4 steps above" was sarcasm. But since you asked, she has a degree in addition to her other training-something you don't.
A degree in what? Is it even a related field? The funny thing is, she probably wouldn't disagree with me in the least, and all you're doing is claiming how much more educated she is.

It doesn't matter what the civilian versus the military backpacker carries, in fact it proves my point even more since the Infantryman has a higher load and thus an even more vital reason to correct his dysfunctions. So shin splints become even more of a bitch, and I don't know about you, but the battlefield is the last place I'd want to have injuries slowing me down.

I'm done. You can't be reasoned with. You are wrong, afraid to admit it, and arguing with someone vastly more researched and capable than you on the subject. What you're doing is as retarded as me lecturing you about close-quarters battle tactics.
  #65  
Old 21 February 2005, 06:09
Ranger1 Ranger1 is offline
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Mr. Debaser,

I don't have a horse in this race, and I am sure you are very knowledgeable about your chosen subject. Here on SOCNET we try to promote good lively discussions in regards to just about everything at one time or another. Additionally, you may very well be right in everything you're saying. That however doesn't matter.

BadMuther is a vetted member of our little community here and this is his house. Your posts to him smack of tacit disrespect. This has been raised here and behind closed doors. In short, your tone is not appropriate and has been noted as such.

Please tread more carefully here. If you do intend to go 18x, this board and its members are an invaluable resource to you. It would be a shame to see you banned after only 11 posts and id'd as a potential problem before you even made it into the pipeline and actually meet some of these board members face to face as your peers.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do.

Last edited by Ranger1; 21 February 2005 at 09:18.
  #66  
Old 21 February 2005, 06:18
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I apologize to Badmuther and the others.

Truly, I meant no disrespect, I can simply be a little overzealous at times expressing my ideas.

I hope we can start on fresh terms.
  #67  
Old 21 February 2005, 06:32
BadMuther BadMuther is offline
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Rethink your attitude and drive on.
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  #68  
Old 21 February 2005, 07:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debaser
I apologize to Badmuther and the others.

Truly, I meant no disrespect, I can simply be a little overzealous at times expressing my ideas.

I hope we can start on fresh terms.
That gave yo another chance here.
Understand a few things; If you're right, by all means stick to your guns and don't back down. That does not mean act disrepectful to members of this community that have been doing the job you want to do, that is a sure way to get absolutely no help and none of your future questions answered, and possibly booted from this board.
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  #69  
Old 22 February 2005, 01:08
Debaser Debaser is offline
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On the topic of PT training that would seem to come in handy for the Military, I stumbled upon this article. Hybrid pushup/pullup workouts, situp/jump/lunges complexes etc.

Might be worth checking out to improve endurance, explosiveness and coordination. Not to mention kicking your own ass.
  #70  
Old 22 February 2005, 04:33
jakeshoe jakeshoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debaser
It doesn't matter what the civilian versus the military backpacker carries,

I would disagree with you here and point out that you are proving Badmuther correct...

Look at a military ALICE pack large, compared to about any civilian "hiking" gear.

Military pack sticks about 3 feet off your back in a short squat package.
Most civilian gear is tall, but is held closer to your back, and civilians have the option to use a waist strap to take a good portion off the weight of their shoulders/back, and load the waist/hips.

If you had any real experience in the military this would be common knowledge for you.

Now with your vast education and expertise, what difference does the configuration of the pack (short and thick vs. tall and slender) have to do with the strain on the body?
  #71  
Old 22 February 2005, 05:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeshoe
Now with your vast education and expertise, what difference does the configuration of the pack (short and thick vs. tall and slender) have to do with the strain on the body?
I understand your point, and you're correct that the load distribution is different.

However, what I was getting at was that the way your body handles and stabilizes under any load, civilian or military, is the important thing. If hip dysfunction is causing your feet to evert outward, for example, your foot is not functioning like the tripod it should, the ankle is displaced, the knees experience valgus stress--in short your body is not operating at functional capacity. Injuries, whether repetitive use, or acute (like your body not landing correctly due to a fall) can result from this joint instability.
  #72  
Old 23 February 2005, 05:26
jakeshoe jakeshoe is offline
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I KNOW I'm correct and that the distribution is different. I don't need you to tell me I'm correct.

Answer the question:
"Now with your vast education and expertise, what difference does the configuration of the pack (short and thick vs. tall and slender) have to do with the strain on the body?"

Forget the waist strap, forget the type of shoulder straps, just the difference in the layout of the bag itself in relation to the body.
  #73  
Old 23 February 2005, 08:39
Battboy From Hell Battboy From Hell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debaser
I understand your point, and you're correct that the load distribution is different.

However, what I was getting at was that the way your body handles and stabilizes under any load, civilian or military, is the important thing. If hip dysfunction is causing your feet to evert outward, for example, your foot is not functioning like the tripod it should, the ankle is displaced, the knees experience valgus stress--in short your body is not operating at functional capacity. Injuries, whether repetitive use, or acute (like your body not landing correctly due to a fall) can result from this joint instability.
Ya know, it's all nice and such that you're theorizing about the this and that of injuries of military related activities.

What you don't have, however, is the big picture.

Load bearing equipment isn't designed for comfort or "health". It's designed to carry a lot of heavy stuff everywhere on your body that you can attach it.

PT wasn't meant to be comfortable. Carrying a heavy ass rucksack wasn't meant to be healthy and never will be.

The whole point is to carry more equipment to the objective to complete the mission, hopefully with as few friendly casualties as possible. You're talking about a profession that revolves around a very simple concept: Close with and destroy the enemy. When you're worried about copper jacketed projectiles cutting you to peices, trivial shit like your knee aching or needing a back rub rates kinda low on the "give a fuck" scale.

You want the golden oracle answer to injury prevention and rehabilitation? I'll sum it up for you.

Shut the fuck up, drive on, and complete the mission.
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  #74  
Old 23 February 2005, 08:45
Battboy From Hell Battboy From Hell is offline
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I would also like to add something else, Debaser:

Do you not think the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines haven't already put years of research and effort into this topic?

I can remember when high caliber PHD types came to my unit and checked out our PT, watched us run and exercise, writing down pages of notes and such.

What I don't understand is how if the military has spent so much time and effort on these subjects for the last 100 years, what's a 20 something year old going to discover, change, modify, or suggest that hasn't already been looked at or covered at least a thousand times already?

Not getting injuried is more luck than anything, considering most of the injuries I've seen happen.
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  #75  
Old 23 February 2005, 08:49
Debaser Debaser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeshoe
I KNOW I'm correct and that the distribution is different. I don't need you to tell me I'm correct.

Answer the question:
"Now with your vast education and expertise, what difference does the configuration of the pack (short and thick vs. tall and slender) have to do with the strain on the body?"

Forget the waist strap, forget the type of shoulder straps, just the difference in the layout of the bag itself in relation to the body.
It would be better if I could try both on for comparison. I would guess that the thoracic and low back are more heavily engaged, rather than a more even distribution of musculature.

But again, what about the rest of my post describing how this isn't the issue?
  #76  
Old 23 February 2005, 08:53
Debaser Debaser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battboy From Hell
I would also like to add something else, Debaser:

Do you not think the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines haven't already put years of research and effort into this topic?

I can remember when high caliber PHD types came to my unit and checked out our PT, watched us run and exercise, writing down pages of notes and such.

What I don't understand is how if the military has spent so much time and effort on these subjects for the last 100 years, what's a 20 something year old going to discover, change, modify, or suggest that hasn't already been looked at or covered at least a thousand times already?

Not getting injuried is more luck than anything, considering most of the injuries I've seen happen.
I've always heard that big changes to the Military happen at a snail's pace, and advents like A.R.T., the Egoscue Method, and similar ideas (which I would add are used by the Olympics and just about every professional sports organization out there) are relatively recent. These are highly effective protocols, for anything involving physical exertion.
  #77  
Old 23 February 2005, 08:58
Debaser Debaser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battboy From Hell
Load bearing equipment isn't designed for comfort or "health". It's designed to carry a lot of heavy stuff everywhere on your body that you can attach it.

PT wasn't meant to be comfortable. Carrying a heavy ass rucksack wasn't meant to be healthy and never will be.

The whole point is to carry more equipment to the objective to complete the mission, hopefully with as few friendly casualties as possible. You're talking about a profession that revolves around a very simple concept: Close with and destroy the enemy. When you're worried about copper jacketed projectiles cutting you to peices, trivial shit like your knee aching or needing a back rub rates kinda low on the "give a fuck" scale.

You want the golden oracle answer to injury prevention and rehabilitation? I'll sum it up for you.

Shut the fuck up, drive on, and complete the mission.
I agree that it might not be designed for comfort and health. But the condition, function and muscular balance of the body will determine the ruck's effect on it.

Yes one would have to press on through trivial shit, and even agony, but what if you tore a hamstring? What if you were lunging over a log, stepped in some mud, your body didn't compensate correctly and you took a spill, tearing a hip stabilizer? Even if you CAN keep going, if you knew that you could prevent such things before they happened, would you?
  #78  
Old 23 February 2005, 09:06
RsovRanger RsovRanger is offline
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Prevent those bad injuries.

Don't enlist.

When you're falling out of a fucking airplane, shit's going to happen. Had a PA who ended up having a torn bicep from someone tossing their static line. Had a buddy with a broken back. Had other friends get screwed up. Some shit will just beat you down. Besides, when it's bloody, muddy, rainy and shitty there's not a damn thing your science will be able to do.

Hence why there are squad leaders who wake up in the morning and pop 4 motrin... why there are people that get medically boarded. Sometimes these injured folks come IN with the injury, and it just gets worse.

They already do everything they can to avoid injury. Shit's going to happen bud, it doesn't matter. Some bodies just ain't built to take the stress.
  #79  
Old 23 February 2005, 09:19
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Originally Posted by RsovRanger
Prevent those bad injuries.

Don't enlist.

When you're falling out of a fucking airplane, shit's going to happen. Had a PA who ended up having a torn bicep from someone tossing their static line. Had a buddy with a broken back. Had other friends get screwed up. Some shit will just beat you down. Besides, when it's bloody, muddy, rainy and shitty there's not a damn thing your science will be able to do.

Hence why there are squad leaders who wake up in the morning and pop 4 motrin... why there are people that get medically boarded. Sometimes these injured folks come IN with the injury, and it just gets worse.

They already do everything they can to avoid injury. Shit's going to happen bud, it doesn't matter. Some bodies just ain't built to take the stress.
Heh. You are right, shit does happen. I just plan to be able to prevent as much of it as possible by having proper joint function.

If I hadn't been doing corrective/preventative exercises, I would still have flat feet right now. All of you that do have flat feet, it can be corrected. It's primarily a hip dysfunction, and not so much the foot itself. If I still had flat feet, my life would be an unnecessary hell in the Rangers or SF. I'm relieved that I discovered how to treat it.

On a side note, I am walking out the door for Chicago, so I will be able to respond to follow-ups in 5 days or so.
  #80  
Old 23 February 2005, 10:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battboy From Hell
trivial shit like your knee aching or needing a back rub rates kinda low on the "give a fuck" scale.

HAHAHA I know it's still early but this has got to be the quote of the day. :D
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