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  #21  
Old 16 April 2008, 23:25
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Chubs Chubs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outofcontrol View Post
As an owner of a CrossFit affiliate, my question is:

Is the LT (or anyone for that matter) a certified CF Level I or better Instructor? If not, then there is a major risk of SERIOUS injury. CF is designed to be led/supervised by a certified instructor who is trained in leading group training, as well as proper form. Motivation and the competitive spirit is great, but the risk of hurting people by being forced into a workout regimen (whether its CF or not) with out scaling the workout to the individual, is bad bad juju. If the unit doesnt have a CF certified instructor, and the LT wants to utilize CF as the unit PT, then talk to him and convince him to pay for for the Unit PT Coordinator to attend a cert. They occur all the time, just e quick...they sell out within a couple hours every time.

OOC, out

I don't want to sound like a dick here, but I'm going to have to disagree with some of this. Yes, the ability to teach proper form is important, but a lack of CF Certification doesn't constitute a lack of knowledge. I've seen plenty of CF certified instructors teach some off the wall things, and on the flipside, I've seen some uncertified individuals do a great job at teaching the lifts. I just don't see the CF certification as being necessary.
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  #22  
Old 17 April 2008, 01:58
BlackAdam01 BlackAdam01 is offline
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No he isnt an instructor (that I know of) and we have stayed away from the heavy weight part of the work outs, mostly because of the size/amount of people we have and the equipment we would need. I have looked at the web site and noted that form seems to be the major focus in 99.9% of the exercises and that maybe where we are F-ing up. Lack of adult supervision. Kewl Thanks for letting me bounce that off you all!
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  #23  
Old 17 April 2008, 02:20
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Believeraz Believeraz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outofcontrol View Post
As an owner of a CrossFit affiliate
OOC,
If you're up for it, I'd like to get some gym time with you while you're passing through my AO, for some pointers on the lifts.
B
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  #24  
Old 17 April 2008, 09:28
Dino0311 Dino0311 is offline
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Check out BrandX Martial Arts for scaled WODs.
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  #25  
Old 17 April 2008, 15:33
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Originally Posted by Chubs View Post
I don't want to sound like a dick here, but I'm going to have to disagree with some of this. Yes, the ability to teach proper form is important, but a lack of CF Certification doesn't constitute a lack of knowledge. I've seen plenty of CF certified instructors teach some off the wall things, and on the flipside, I've seen some uncertified individuals do a great job at teaching the lifts. I just don't see the CF certification as being necessary.
Yep.

Everything I know about PT was self taught....and I'm going on 5 years straight of working out 5 times a week, and I've never had an injury.

I believe Choke said something earlier in the thread about not stretching before you workout.

Absolutely correct....stretching a 'cold' muscle will put it at greater risk to be injured.

Personally, I love CF.....I don't follow it on a day-to-day program, but there certainly are workouts that I have implemented into my schedule.
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  #26  
Old 17 April 2008, 16:18
skeeter8654 skeeter8654 is offline
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I joined a CF gym, specifically to get instruction on the OLY lifts. It was money well spent. It's not that a certified crossfit instructor is the only source to learn Olympic lifts, but... at least you can take comfort knowing that a certain level of training has been undertaken in how to instruct these lifts correctly. I have not seen CF instructors teach off the wall things, the ones I have encountered were very competent across a broad spectrum of excercise technique. I would go to a USA weightlifting certified coach for the same reason. Teach your self to Olympic lift is difficult, and I wouldn't recommend it personally. Also Oly lifting has to be undertaken with the proper equiptment (a real Olympic weightlifting bar, not to be confused with most of the bars out there, as well as bumper plates and a lifting platform) or you assume a great deal of undue risk. Bottom line, to me anyway, is getting qualified instruction is a GOOD idea, whether it's a Crossfit coach, or a USA Weightlifting coach etc. Getting instruction from someone with no formal training in instructing those lifts, because you percieve them to be proficient in them, could possibly work out for you, or maybe not. Proficency in a lift is not necessarilly indicative of an ability to teach, diagnose errors, give cues to fix technique etc. Caveat Emptor.
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  #27  
Old 17 April 2008, 16:35
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Originally Posted by skeeter8654 View Post
Proficency in a lift is not necessarilly indicative of an ability to teach, diagnose errors, give cues to fix technique etc. Caveat Emptor.
I judge experience, and the ability to teach a lift by the time one spends under the bar. The only way to truley know how to address errors and fix technique is to have been there over and over again. I'll take 10yrs of experience under the bar against all the certifications in the world.
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  #28  
Old 17 April 2008, 17:07
cookmaj cookmaj is offline
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I agree with mdb23. I would love to have a CF section. I tend to go back and forth from the WOD's posted on CF.com or navyseals.com. I love it. I am definitely addicted and I have seen a significant amount of progress from doing CF everyday.
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  #29  
Old 17 April 2008, 17:37
skeeter8654 skeeter8654 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubs View Post
I judge experience, and the ability to teach a lift by the time one spends under the bar. The only way to truley know how to address errors and fix technique is to have been there over and over again. I'll take 10yrs of experience under the bar against all the certifications in the world.

Whatever works for you. I know lots of folks with decades of "time under a bar" who are less than adequate coaches. I spent several years lifting kettlebells, and all the time I spent "under them" and the books and videos I read and watched didn't stop me from being all screwed up until I dropped some serious coin and got certified as an instructor. 3 days of focused professional instruction on the execution of technique and how to instruct it did more in the space of a few days then years of lifting them did. I've taught what I learned there to plenty of guys I work with, and they were universally shocked at how much they'd been doing wrong previously, and there technique improved exponentially, just from recieving quality instruction. My experience with Olympic lifting has been similar. Recieving good quality instruction from qualified coaches has vastly improved my technique, improved my results, and decreased my potential for injuries. Time under the bar has not. I don't think that there aren't guys out there who can coach who have no certs, but it's a bit of a crap shoot. Again, caveat emptor. I'm always amazed by the vehement reactions to suggestions to go to a qualified instructor.

Edited to add:

I also would enjoy a crossfit section, and I think there is more than enough interest on the board to make it worthwhile.

Last edited by skeeter8654; 17 April 2008 at 17:44.
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  #30  
Old 17 April 2008, 18:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter8654 View Post
Recieving good quality instruction from qualified coaches has vastly improved my technique, improved my results, and decreased my potential for injuries. Time under the bar has not. I don't think that there aren't guys out there who can coach who have no certs, but it's a bit of a crap shoot. Again, caveat emptor. I'm always amazed by the vehement reactions to suggestions to go to a qualified instructor.

I'm not arguing that qualified instruction isn't necessary. It obviously is. What I'm referring to is that a lot of people have the notion that a 3 day course somehow makes them proficient in the lift. I'm sure the instructors you went to have spent plenty of time under the bar.
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  #31  
Old 17 April 2008, 19:40
skeeter8654 skeeter8654 is offline
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Originally Posted by Chubs View Post
I'm not arguing that qualified instruction isn't necessary. It obviously is. What I'm referring to is that a lot of people have the notion that a 3 day course somehow makes them proficient in the lift. I'm sure the instructors you went to have spent plenty of time under the bar.
Define qualified. That is the problem, in absence of a recognized certification of some sort like being a USA weightlifting coach, etc. it is difficult to know whether you are recieving quality coaching or something that could get you seriously hurt. Unless your tutor has track record of coaching athletes to prominence in Olympic weightlifting it's a bit hard to judge his technical expertise. I would be surprised if you could find a great number of these who were not USA weightlifting coaches. If you knew what proper technique was you probably wouldn't need the coach in the first place. What is your experience with crossfit or olympic weightlifting? It's a bit hard to believe that "I've seen plenty of CF certified instructors teach some off the wall things" since that would require you to have gone to plenty of crossfit gyms and you're not too keen on CF instruction. "Time under a bar" sounds pretty macho whidh makes it good I suppose, and there are plenty of guys whose decades of "time under the bar" hasn't done much for their rotator cuffs, knees, backs, you name it. Heck that goes for plain jane strength training, which even at the level of a competitive powerlifter (who is very concerned with his technique), is much less technically demanding than an oly lift. A trainer who has completed a three day cert is not likely to be qualified to coach an olympic hopeful like Mike Burgener or one of his peers might, but he/she is definitely capable of coaching to standard of safe performance of the lifts, and your average gym rat with huge pecs and loads of free advice is not.

Edited to add: Some of the better coaching I've recieved has come at the hands of a rather slightly built woman who's experince in Olympic weightlifting would be about two years of CF, a CrossFit Certification and an Olympic weightlifting certification. Not exactly "years under the bar", just a fully capable in demonstrating and instructing the lifts.

Last edited by skeeter8654; 17 April 2008 at 19:50.
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  #32  
Old 17 April 2008, 20:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter8654 View Post
What is your experience with crossfit or olympic weightlifting? It's a bit hard to believe that "I've seen plenty of CF certified instructors teach some off the wall things" since that would require you to have gone to plenty of crossfit gyms and you're not too keen on CF instruction. "Time under a bar" sounds pretty macho whidh makes it good I suppose, and there are plenty of guys whose decades of "time under the bar" hasn't done much for their rotator cuffs, knees, backs, you name it. Heck that goes for plain jane strength training, which even at the level of a competitive powerlifter (who is very concerned with his technique), is much less technically demanding than an oly lift. A trainer who has completed a three day cert is not likely to be qualified to coach an olympic hopeful like Mike Burgener or one of his peers might, but he/she is definitely capable of coaching to standard of safe performance of the lifts, and your average gym rat with huge pecs and loads of free advice is not.

I suppose I misspoke somewhat when I said "plenty" of CF trainers. I've trained with several CF and RKC certified instructors that have on idea how to coach a lift. They may know the basics of CF and how to structure a workout, but picking apart a solid lift and teaching the cues wasn't something they were any good at. The majority of my recent training has been in PLing. I directly train with a couple of guys who total in the 1700s and have conversations on a regular basis with several guys who total well over two grand. Everyone of them is in agreement that time spent under the bar is far more valuable than any certification or written manual.

Once again, I'm not knocking certifications. I just find that people rely far to heavily on the letters after somebody's name and not what they've accomplished.
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  #33  
Old 17 April 2008, 20:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubs
The only way to truley know how to address errors and fix technique is to have been there over and over again....
My following comment is made well after you gave a great deal of more info in clarifying your position, so anyone reading this needs to place my comment in the context it is -- which is in the reference of "time doing something" vice "time doing something RIGHT."

I tend to not give much credit to years of experience in anything. I've caught doctors -- specialists in very unique fields -- wrong, over something that I learned in practically weeks (because I suddenly had a rather serious interest in it). I've seen guys teaching students some of the most fucked up shit imaginable, but since they had been doing it that way forever -- it must be right, no? Hell, even Iraq serves as a great example -- how many of you know guys that are literally walking corpses due to their fantastic case of the headuptheassitis and tactics that reek of ignorance, stupidity, and a whole lot of arrogance? And how many of those guys will look you right in the fucking eye and tell you; "I've been here 3 years and doing it this way the whole time -- fuck you, I'm right!"?

Anyway, my point I was trying to make is that years of doing anything WRONG does not make one "experienced" in the sense of being qualified to teach.

OK, rant off, back to ignoring this thread and pushing one's self until your arms fall out of their sockets....:D
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  #34  
Old 17 April 2008, 21:03
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Originally Posted by SOTB View Post
Anyway, my point I was trying to make is that years of doing anything WRONG does not make one "experienced" in the sense of being qualified to teach.
I agree wholeheartedly with that point.
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  #35  
Old 17 April 2008, 21:53
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I'll just add that Elizabeth is a nasty bitch of a workout and about gave me a heart attack today.
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  #36  
Old 18 April 2008, 14:49
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Crossfit rocks!

I am 53 and have been doing crossfit for a little more than 2 years. (705 cf total). I used to run, swim, row, bike, lift weights, etc. I am stronger now than I have ever been. I am self-taught on the oly lifts and recognize that at some point I may have to get some instruction. Common sense rules - i.e., I am careful with the lifts. I workout at home and my 9 year old daughter did 30 clean and jerks with 30 lb barbell! I thought my heart was going to burst! My 16 year old daughter does a modified version to stay in shape. The scalability of crossfit makes it accessible for everybody.
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  #37  
Old 19 April 2008, 11:08
BlackAdam01 BlackAdam01 is offline
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Thumbs up

After talking to him he has agreed that a little more supervision is needed so he is going to put more emphase on technique rather than ammount. The lifts we really werent doing due to # of people and equipment needed for a group PT it seemed to be squating too quick and the wrong way. Have to admit I was doing it wrong too, too much HS wrestling and bad tech is a killer on knees beat up by steel decks!! Thanks for the help in this BTW. We have been doing a lot of swimming lately too, and that really put how bad I am in the pool compared to the kids!! LOL!! So on an average (not a poll) but how often does everyone work out? We went from 5 to 6 times a week since deploying. Not much else to do here so why not? Thanks again!
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  #38  
Old 19 April 2008, 11:46
Gryfen-FL Gryfen-FL is offline
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About the swimming....

I've heard good things about Total Immersion
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  #39  
Old 20 April 2008, 07:43
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Believer...Im bringing a set of rings with me! Lets do it!

Chubbs...you werent being a dick at all bro. I'll respectfully disagree with your disagreement though. Im not saying that its a requirement to be a part of it, but I DO belive that if the young O-2 referenced is going to utilize CF as the unit PT, then he should shell out the dough to get at least one of his members certified. Remember, Oly lifting is only a part of the techniques. there are others that need to be shown and explained. ANY trainer will tell you that most injuries in working out are due to bad form. So, if he is experiencing an increase in injuries, then a.) somebody is not watching people form, or b.) somebody doesnt know what they are looking at. Either way, that needs to be corrected and the best way to do that, is by getting comebody certified to lead a CF workout.

BlackAdam...CF reccommends 3 on/1 off rotation

Just my .02

OOC, out
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  #40  
Old 20 April 2008, 09:53
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Originally Posted by Outofcontrol View Post
Chubbs...you werent being a dick at all bro. I'll respectfully disagree with your disagreement though. Im not saying that its a requirement to be a part of it, but I DO belive that if the young O-2 referenced is going to utilize CF as the unit PT, then he should shell out the dough to get at least one of his members certified. Remember, Oly lifting is only a part of the techniques. there are others that need to be shown and explained. ANY trainer will tell you that most injuries in working out are due to bad form. So, if he is experiencing an increase in injuries, then a.) somebody is not watching people form, or b.) somebody doesnt know what they are looking at. Either way, that needs to be corrected and the best way to do that, is by getting comebody certified to lead a CF workout.

I agree that in this instance, it probably is best to have the O-2 run through a certification class. I should've been more clear with my original statement. I was referring to lifting/trainers in general. In this case, if the person leading the workout doesn't have the bar time to assess form breakdowns, then I definitely agree that he should be sent to some cert class to at least become familiar with what he's looking at. However, I don't think the cert class is going to solve the problems outright. I'm sure it's going to curb quite a bit of the injuries, but going back to my original point, there are a lot of form issues that only get picked up after you've been lifting for quite some time.
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