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  #61  
Old 7 December 2017, 14:41
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Sooooo the admission by the then-Israeli health minister that this program existed means nothing? I don't honestly have the time to find out what is a "liberal rag" and what is not (especially in a foreign country), but diving deeper the facts of the case appear to report that, emotions aside, it did happen.

I agree that the emotional subtext is indeed a libshit one. But that's neither here nor there. I don't give a shit what the Israelis do to Ethiopians or not. Nor do I care what Ethiopians do to Israelis. It's all a wash in my book. It did, however, happen. Same as the American Tuskegee experiments.

But the reason I bring it up was because there is a dogmatic and forbidden condition in America against criticism of any and all kind against Israel. Zealously enforced by insane assholes in the AIPAC, the ADL, and SPLC (et al). Beyond all reasonable and rational sanity. That anyone not just absolutely gushing pro-Israel "our greatest ally" John Hagee bullshit is a fucking goose-stepping Nazi and that we should continue to pump BILLIONS of dollars into that country forever and ever. Even after they've been caught, REPEATEDLY, stealing American military and industrial secrets and manipulating American foreign policy.

I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm shitting on you personally, GDVIR, I'm not. I'm not directing this at YOU ---- just your government. I'm as equally critical of my own government pieces of shit, as everyone here knows.
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  #62  
Old 7 December 2017, 15:08
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Wikipedia says Jerusalem is the capital - so I am gonna go with Wikipedia !!!

Wikipedia is all knowing and if Jerusalem wasn't the capital, somebody would have fixed it !!!
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  #63  
Old 7 December 2017, 15:27
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Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
...
And as far as "freedom". Yeah, ask the Ethiopian Jews they sterilized how that's working out. ...
How many Ethiopians in Israel have you met?

Ask these guys how they feel

https://en.wikipedia[dot]org/wiki/Operation_Solomon
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  #64  
Old 7 December 2017, 15:36
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From a biblical sense, imho Israel ceased to exist in the first century. I don't buy into the whole evangelical " we must bless Israel or God will not bless us". As modern day "biblical Israel" is about believers, not a geographical place. The current geographical Israel is about national borders and politics, not spirituality. As a nation they are very secular and liberal. So, no problem dealing with Israel as a nation for Geo-political reason just like we do with all other nations. But spare me the Hagee diatribes about how we must support Israel for our Christian well being.

Go hang out on a beach in Thailand or go trekking in Nepal, and you will lose all favor you have for Israel.

I still want a (((Tavor))) though! That is how I will support Israel , by supporting IWI. Need a desert eagle in .44 mag also. Them Jews make some good guns.
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  #65  
Old 7 December 2017, 15:41
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As an isolationist, I really don't care about the thoughts of allies or the such. I simply want to know who I can can or can not count on to use in a geographical area when I need it. If I can't use them or they won't allow themselves to be used, then they go to the bottom of the mud barrel. Everything aside...Israel is that country for me.

I have no issue with supporting Israel regardless of religious convictions or way or the other.
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  #66  
Old 7 December 2017, 15:44
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Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
Sooooo the admission by the then-Israeli health minister that this program existed means nothing? I don't honestly have the time to find out what is a "liberal rag" and what is not (especially in a foreign country), but diving deeper the facts of the case appear to report that, emotions aside, it did happen.

I agree that the emotional subtext is indeed a libshit one. But that's neither here nor there. I don't give a shit what the Israelis do to Ethiopians or not. Nor do I care what Ethiopians do to Israelis. It's all a wash in my book. It did, however, happen. Same as the American Tuskegee experiments.

But the reason I bring it up was because there is a dogmatic and forbidden condition in America against criticism of any and all kind against Israel. Zealously enforced by insane assholes in the AIPAC, the ADL, and SPLC (et al). Beyond all reasonable and rational sanity. That anyone not just absolutely gushing pro-Israel "our greatest ally" John Hagee bullshit is a fucking goose-stepping Nazi and that we should continue to pump BILLIONS of dollars into that country forever and ever. Even after they've been caught, REPEATEDLY, stealing American military and industrial secrets and manipulating American foreign policy.

I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm shitting on you personally, GDVIR, I'm not. I'm not directing this at YOU ---- just your government. I'm as equally critical of my own government pieces of shit, as everyone here knows.
No harm no foul.

I understand Israel related disussions can get heated, people always have strong opinions for and against and bring out arguments for and against that they wouldn't bring up in a discussion about any other US ally (say Thailand, Jordan etc.).
It's always a love it or hate it situation.

I respect your opinion on the matter of how US-Israel relationships should look and I'm not trying to convince you.

I'm just trying to point out that the same Jewish libtards that are pushing diversity, equality etc. and calling any dissenter an anti-semitic nazi, that are supposedly pro-Israel, are the same ones operating inside Israel pushing the same values (with Arabs in the role of the oppressed minorities) and calling all dissenters extremist right wing religious fanatics and pushing for suicidal concessions in the name of having a peace process at any cost.

Pointing at them as representatives of Israel and its values (or representatives of Jews) is IMO incorrect.

My own opinion as a "right wing nationalistic Israeli", your mileage may vary.


I prefer to look at this whole Jerusalem situation as another of President Trump's middle fingers to these people and their European backers and to Obama and his policies.
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  #67  
Old 7 December 2017, 15:52
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While I agree with this sentiment regarding isolationism, I fully support a good close relationship with Israel. They have a lively democracy, freedom of speech, press, religion, assembly, etc., an independent judiciary -- basically all the elements of a good, stable, representative government. Their Arab neighbors ..... uh, not so much.

The bottom line is that this is the type of country we should support. What that support entails may be up for debate, but we should never turn our back on a country like this for the sake of appeasing half the world (who resent us and hate our fucking guts not matter what) who hate Israel.
You can't agree with isolationism and your last paragraph. I understand that they have a wonderful country. That's nice. Its not our job to "support" them.

I don't know how many muslims you know...but the ones I know say the reason why there is animosity towards us is our unabashed support of Israel. Even the most civilized (and I use that term loosely) among them who love America and want to be like us have a completely irrational hatred of "The Jew".

Like I said, we can't unbake the cake, but I promise you that the muslim world had way, way less of a problem with America pre-1948.

Which shouldn't matter, because we shouldn't be letting any of them into the country.
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  #68  
Old 7 December 2017, 16:36
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You can't agree with isolationism and your last paragraph. I understand that they have a wonderful country. That's nice. Its not our job to "support" them.
Oh, I understand. I firmly believe that our country should be more like Switzerland than Great Britain during the height of her empire. But that is not going to happen in the short term. We should support western style democracies because they typically avoid unprovoked conflicts that we could get dragged into.

For example, the South Koreans and Japanese may hate each other and fuck with each other in various ways, but they are not going to start a shooting war. It would hurt the re-election prospects of the ruling party. The Catalonians may want to break away from Spain, but they aren't willing to fight a war for independence because it would disrupt their vacation plans to Ibiza.

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I don't know how many muslims you know...but the ones I know say the reason why there is animosity towards us is our unabashed support of Israel. Even the most civilized (and I use that term loosely) among them who love America and want to be like us have a completely irrational hatred of "The Jew".
I have known several and have had some very good deep discussions on this. These were accomplished, professional "assimilated American" muslims.

The hatred goes deeper than Israel or "the Jew". Much deeper.

Up until about 1400, the Arab/Muslim world was the most advanced and sophisticated culture in the world. Their scientific knowledge, their art, their literature was unrivaled. We still use a Latin alphabet that comes from the Romans, but our numerical system is Arabic because they were so advanced in mathematics. They invented Algebra.

They ruled the world and they lost it all in about a hundred years. It disappeared in a flash to the Western Europeans of the renaissance and they are royally pissed off about it. Instead of examining where they went wrong, they blame the West for cheating them out of their rightful place in the world.

This resentment and hatred has been simmering for about 600 years. They see the establishment of Israel as a beach head in a modern day crusade. The Israelis came out of Europe after WWII as agents on this new crusade.

If Israel disappeared, this anger would not subside. In fact, it might get worse because they might feel they were gaining the upper hand on the West.

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Like I said, we can't unbake the cake, but I promise you that the muslim world had way, way less of a problem with America pre-1948.
Our alliance and resulting complications with Israel didn't even really begin until '73 during the Yom Kippur war. The Israelis were on the verge of losing and convinced Nixon to begin a massive airlift of supplies to keep them in the fight. Prior to that, they were a non-aligned socialist country that was a little more friendly with the Soviets. Kind of like India during the Cold War. In fact, Pres. Eisenhower intervened diplomatically on the side of Egypt during the '56 Suez war when he told UK/France/Israel to knock it off and give the Suez canal back to Nasser.

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Which shouldn't matter, because we shouldn't be letting any of them into the country.
Abso-fucking-lutely
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  #69  
Old 7 December 2017, 16:52
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The mongols were the ones who fucking destroyed "the muslim golden age". They should pissed at the goddam mongorians, at least for that particular issue. I have no idea why or where they get this idea that "the west" stole the shit, since these inbred fucks were the ones occupying Spain for over 700 fuckin years until Isabella grew the balls that apparently all of Western civ lacks nowadays and drove the fuckers back into the ocean.

They wanna hate the Jews, fine. Go hate the Jews. But I just don't understand hatred for shit that never happened. Go hate on them for that "Greater Israel" plan they have cooking up. But the idea that western civ 'stole' their bullshit?? Hahahahaha, fucking laughable.

Muslims can go get fucked. So can all the little Loxism/Jewish "Supremacists" out there. America first and always. Meanwhile, I want to see everyone else but Western Civ duke it out like two monkeys in a knife fight.

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  #70  
Old 7 December 2017, 18:38
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Up until about 1400, the Arab/Muslim world was the most advanced and sophisticated culture in the world. Their scientific knowledge, their art, their literature was unrivaled. We still use a Latin alphabet that comes from the Romans, but our numerical system is Arabic because they were so advanced in mathematics. They invented Algebra.
No. Not even close to being the most advanced and sophisticated. We use Arabic because they had a place holder for zero. Vikings used both base 10 and base 12 systems interchangeably in everyday lives and commerce. Sure, an Arab invented algebra, and an Englishman invented calculus. Mayans knew how to predict eclipses years in advance, and so did the Chinese. And an obscure African tribe knew Sirius was a double star whose smaller companion has a 52 year orbital period. Not only did Arabs not know that, but nobody else knew it either until telescopes were good enough to see it.

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They ruled the world and they lost it all in about a hundred years. It disappeared in a flash to the Western Europeans of the renaissance and they are royally pissed off about it. Instead of examining where they went wrong, they blame the West for cheating them out of their rightful place in the world...
In a flash?

Remind me how long the Reconquista lasted in Spain.

Charles Martel hammered the Moors at Tours in 732. The Battle of Lepanto was in 1571. The Battle of Vienna was in 1683. That's about 950 years of first stopping, then retaking, and finally ending their efforts to eliminate European civilization, not "a hundred."

Between all those were the Crusades and the Mongol Horde. Sorry, but Arabs never ruled the world (other than their own), nor did they lose it "in a flash."

Your understanding of history is strongly biased, at best.
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Old 7 December 2017, 19:42
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In a flash?

Remind me how long the Reconquista lasted in Spain.

Charles Martel hammered the Moors at Tours in 732. The Battle of Lepanto was in 1571. The Battle of Vienna was in 1683. That's about 950 years of first stopping, then retaking, and finally ending their efforts to eliminate European civilization, not "a hundred."

Between all those were the Crusades and the Mongol Horde. Sorry, but Arabs never ruled the world (other than their own), nor did they lose it "in a flash."
You are mixing and mingling the Arab caliphate and the Ottoman Empire. That is ok, if you want to base the discussion on a shared religion but those are two separate empires of two separate ethnicities, languages, cultures, etc.

As far as the Arabs go, the Ottoman Turks spent most of the 1400's conquering their holdings in the Middle East after they were shattered by the Mongols sack of Baghdad. There were outliers of various sizes that avoided conquest, but for the most part they were under the Turkish rule until WWI.

So, I will stand by them falling in a hundred years or so which is a flash when we are talking about empires that lasted this long.
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  #72  
Old 7 December 2017, 20:09
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... We should support western style democracies because they typically avoid unprovoked conflicts that we could get dragged into.

World War 1?

World War 2?

We practiced isolationism then, and more Americans died, rather than go all balls in when that shit started and kicking the Germans in the teeth before they took over most of Europe, parts of Afrika, and so on.

While I really like the "minding our own fucking business" nation model, we tried that before, and I would hope we learned something from it.

As far as those middle eastern fucks getting all riled up... those shits are the same ones that were dancing in the streets after 9/11. I hope they are all wearing their heart condoms, because fuck their feelings.
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  #73  
Old 7 December 2017, 20:13
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Personally, I'm all for it. I really don't give a rats furry little ass whether the Arabs like it or not. I'm just glad we have a POTUS with a set of balls who isn't pandering to those fuckers anymore. They can get mad, then they can get over it. Fuck em.
I feel the same way Piss on the arabs!
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  #74  
Old 7 December 2017, 21:07
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You are mixing and mingling the Arab caliphate and the Ottoman Empire. That is ok, if you want to base the discussion on a shared religion but those are two separate empires of two separate ethnicities, languages, cultures, etc.
Your words...
Quote:
Up until about 1400, the Arab/Muslim world...
...mixed and mingled the Arab Caliphate and the Ottoman Empire.
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So, I will stand by them falling in a hundred years or so which is a flash when we are talking about empires that lasted this long.
Well, it was ended in 1683 by Polish Winged Hussars outside of Vienna, so if your "hundred years or so" claim is correct, we can assume the "Arab/Muslim world" was doing just fine until around 1580 or so.

History records they lost Spain about 200 years before that. Baghdad was erased by Mongols in 1258. Tamerlane, while fancying himself as the "sword of Islam," defeated the Mamluks of Egypt and Syria, the Ottomans, and the Delhi Sultanate. By the time he died in 1405, he had caused the deaths of around 17 million people - about 5% of the world population - most of whom were...Muslim. This was over 250 years before Vienna. I could go on.

Blink of an eye...
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  #75  
Old 7 December 2017, 21:15
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World War 1?

World War 2?

We practiced isolationism then, and more Americans died, rather than go all balls in when that shit started and kicking the Germans in the teeth before they took over most of Europe, parts of Afrika, and so on.

While I really like the "minding our own fucking business" nation model, we tried that before, and I would hope we learned something from it.

As far as those middle eastern fucks getting all riled up... those shits are the same ones that were dancing in the streets after 9/11. I hope they are all wearing their heart condoms, because fuck their feelings.
We didn't actually do isolationism. We stuck our noses into WWI, and gave the world Adolph Hitler and another world war. Had we actually been isolationists we wouldn't have shipped munitions to the British, giving the Germans a totally legitimate reason to sink the Lusitania.

Had we minded our own business, that silly assed dispute between relatives would have ended most likely as Status Quo Ante Bellum, or in the victory of a relatively benign Imperial Germany.

We haven't practiced true isolationism since shortly after the founding of the Republic.
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  #76  
Old 7 December 2017, 23:48
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We can't (shouldn't) be complete isolationists. If the French were isolationists we wouldn't be here. You never know what might happen next and who you might need to depend on. Plus IMHO sometimes it's the "right" thing to do.
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  #77  
Old 8 December 2017, 00:30
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We can't (shouldn't) be complete isolationists. If the French were isolationists we wouldn't be here. You never know what might happen next and who you might need to depend on. Plus IMHO sometimes it's the "right" thing to do.
The calls for isolation wouldn’t be so loud if our foreign policy wasn’t so fucked up. Due to moral relativism as a nation, the “right thing” changes with the political winds, leaving us with never ending wars where our strength is depleted and our enemies stronger. Since we can’t seem to work up the nerve to actually kill every living thing in our way and then leaving said shit hole, or claiming the land for our own......then maybe we should try the whole “Let’s not get involved” thing. And isolation doesn’t mean you have to have no contact at all......just more along the lines of “Good fences make good neighbors”. I know it is wishful thinking of sorts, but I guess I am just tired of seeing so many of our own coming home all fucked up or in a coffin over bullshit reasons that don’t benefit us as a country. Let’s worry about our own for a change. America first.....always.
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  #78  
Old 8 December 2017, 07:05
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The French backed our play in the Revolution as a way to stick it to the English and diminish their empire which was in competition than theirs. Not for any great love they had for our ideals and certainly not for some "bringing freedom and democracy to oppressed people" garbage that's been the standard bullshit lie fed to young Americans to go die in shit holes around in the world since WWII. All to benefit the assholes currently sucking up all the prosperity and wealth our forefathers had bled, sweat, and stressed over to make this land a better place for their children.
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  #79  
Old 8 December 2017, 09:20
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... their art, their literature was unrivaled...
Not even close
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  #80  
Old 8 December 2017, 09:23
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...our numerical system is Arabic...
No. From India.
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